Re: Will GPL Java eat into Python marketshare?
Harry George wrote: Personally, I've never gotten jpype to work. Is it just me, or is it a troublesome install? It worked for my purpose (connecting to a 4D database via JDBC over Open4D, as the ODBC driver for that db is really horrible) until I tried to use this setup together with cherrypy, what crashed loudly and consistently for reasons I failed to discern. Some initial [class]path issues, as well. Cheers, BB -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Will GPL Java eat into Python marketshare?
Short answer: People use Python instead of Java because people (at least intelligent people) tend to avoid pain. Intelligent people don't suffer from fanboy sentiments. They just pick a language that works best for them. I agree with the previous poster and don't think it's just being a fan boy. Some projects require Java, or at least are easier in Java, such as creating browser applets, but in the majority of cases I find Python much easier to work in. The code is more terse and easier to read and work with. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Will GPL Java eat into Python marketshare?
Dennis Lee Bieber wrote: On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 22:41:19 GMT, Maurice LING [EMAIL PROTECTED] declaimed the following in comp.lang.python: I'm hoping for a more optimistic outcome that this may open a possibility for tigher interoperability between java programs and python programs. That is, run java class files or java codes natively on python VM. Is this still a blue sky dream? Most unlikely to happen... I don't really see anyone going to the effort to change the javac back-end to target a totally different runtime engine. I admit that it is very very unlikely. I guess it is just a wild dream of mine to run Java bytecodes and Python bytecodes on Python VM. I do have a wild vision that we can import java libraries (as jar files) into CPython. ML -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Will GPL Java eat into Python marketshare?
I do have a wild vision that we can import java libraries (as jar files) into CPython. Isnt this being achieved by Jython (python code using Java libraries), and in future by the Java scripting framework added into Java 6 ? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Will GPL Java eat into Python marketshare?
Maurice LING wrote: I admit that it is very very unlikely. I guess it is just a wild dream of mine to run Java bytecodes and Python bytecodes on Python VM. I do have a wild vision that we can import java libraries (as jar files) into CPython. http://sourceforge.net/projects/jpype /F -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Will GPL Java eat into Python marketshare?
John Bokma wrote: Seriously though, there is no contradiction between the idea of people use Python instead of Java because they prefer to avoid pain It sounds like a typical fanboy statement to me, since it implies that Java is always a pain, and Python is perfect. That inference requires as preliminary convention, some clear contrafactual like everybody uses Python and nobody uses Java. IMO, this is a form of assumption that is only legitimate in the purpose of reaching agreement; while the OP's statement can be read as those people who use Python instead of Java do it because... without recourse to a similar assumption - what escapes your criticism. Cheers, BB -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Will GPL Java eat into Python marketshare?
I'm using python couse its clean, fast, fast to develop, easy, beauty, an alternative. Java its a mainstream lang, GPL or not... i think *sorry for my (por) english walterbyrd escreveu: Some think it will. Up untill now, Java has never been standard across different versions of Linux and Unix. Some think that is one reason that some developers have avoided Java in favor of Python. Now that Java has been GPL'd that might change. IMO: it won't make much difference. But I don't really know. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Will GPL Java eat into Python marketshare?
walterbyrd wrote: Some think it will. How so? Just because Java is GPL doesn't mean you can type less while coding in it. BufferedOutputStream bos = new BufferedOutputStream(new FileOutputStream()); is still like that GPL or no GPL, no? Up untill now, Java has never been standard across different versions of Linux and Unix. The last company I worked for has been delivering products on Windows, Linux, and Solaris for years. We've never had to resort to any platform-specific stuff with Java. Some think that is one reason that some developers have avoided Java in favor of Python. Now that Java has been GPL'd that might change. Becoming a better Java, maybe. Becoming more like Python? No way. I have high hopes for Jython though, Charles Nutter from JRuby has been having an ongoing discussion with the Jython developers in jython-dev. Interesting stuff! IMO: it won't make much difference. But I don't really know. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Will GPL Java eat into Python marketshare?
walterbyrd wrote: Some think it will. Up untill now, Java has never been standard across different versions of Linux and Unix. Some think that is one reason that some developers have avoided Java in favor of Python. Now that Java has been GPL'd that might change. IMO: it won't make much difference. But I don't really know. In my opinion, GPLing Java won't have any immediate effect on who uses which for what kind of project. Longer term, however, I see a number of efforts to clean up some of Java's more egregious syntax problems. I've already seen one proposal, and there will undoubtedly be others. If any of them fly, they'll probably be folded into the base in a few years, and that will diminish the ease of use / large project divide between the two languages. John Roth -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Will GPL Java eat into Python marketshare?
Fredrik Lundh [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Maurice LING wrote: I admit that it is very very unlikely. I guess it is just a wild dream of mine to run Java bytecodes and Python bytecodes on Python VM. I do have a wild vision that we can import java libraries (as jar files) into CPython. http://sourceforge.net/projects/jpype /F Personally, I've never gotten jpype to work. Is it just me, or is it a troublesome install? -- Harry George PLM Engineering Architecture -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Will GPL Java eat into Python marketshare?
Dennis Lee Bieber [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 22:41:19 GMT, Maurice LING [EMAIL PROTECTED] declaimed the following in comp.lang.python: I'm hoping for a more optimistic outcome that this may open a possibility for tigher interoperability between java programs and python programs. That is, run java class files or java codes natively on python VM. Is this still a blue sky dream? Most unlikely to happen... I don't really see anyone going to the effort to change the javac back-end to target a totally different runtime engine. -- WulfraedDennis Lee Bieber KD6MOG [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/ (Bestiaria Support Staff: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) HTTP://www.bestiaria.com/ I once wrote a partial JVM in Modula-3 (strictly a researchware effort), so I can imagine it being done technically. But why? The big problem with Java-and-Python is not the VMs underneath. It is the fact that Java has layers upon layers upon layers of idiosyncratic libraries and idioms. When you write bindings to that world (even if the bindings are generated automagically), you have to *think* in those same layers. The Python-oriented developer suddenly has to use a dozen imports in order to do things already done better in Pythonesque libraries. -- Harry George PLM Engineering Architecture -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Will GPL Java eat into Python marketshare?
Personally, I've never gotten jpype to work. Is it just me, or is it a troublesome install? Harry George PLM Engineering Architecture It works fine for me now. However, I do recall having an issue a while ago (most likely me, rather than JPype). -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Will GPL Java eat into Python marketshare?
I once wrote a partial JVM in Modula-3 (strictly a researchware effort), so I can imagine it being done technically. But why? The big problem with Java-and-Python is not the VMs underneath. It is the fact that Java has layers upon layers upon layers of idiosyncratic libraries and idioms. When you write bindings to that world (even if the bindings are generated automagically), you have to *think* in those same layers. The Python-oriented developer suddenly has to use a dozen imports in order to do things already done better in Pythonesque libraries. The main use I can see is to be able to incorporate Java applications into Python. For example, I am using Cytoscape (www.cytoscape.org) which is in Java. I do hope that I can control Cytoscape from Python and manipulate its objects from Python. Say given cytoscape.jar, I'll like to be able to do this: from cytoscape javaimport cytoscape c = cytoscape() And the tighest way I see that this can be done is for Python VM to execute Java bytecodes like Python bytecodes. That is, Python VM executes Java bytecodes directly and not through object mapping which I think is that JPyPe is doing. I must say that this is part of even a fluffier dream that one day, I can take any applications and play around with it in Python. Currently, my collaborators wrote in Perl and Java, so it is not easy for me to use their work in my work. ML -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Will GPL Java eat into Python marketshare?
Maurice LING escreveu: I once wrote a partial JVM in Modula-3 (strictly a researchware effort), so I can imagine it being done technically. But why? The big problem with Java-and-Python is not the VMs underneath. It is the fact that Java has layers upon layers upon layers of idiosyncratic libraries and idioms. When you write bindings to that world (even if the bindings are generated automagically), you have to *think* in those same layers. The Python-oriented developer suddenly has to use a dozen imports in order to do things already done better in Pythonesque libraries. The main use I can see is to be able to incorporate Java applications into Python. For example, I am using Cytoscape (www.cytoscape.org) which is in Java. I do hope that I can control Cytoscape from Python and manipulate its objects from Python. Say given cytoscape.jar, I'll like to be able to do this: from cytoscape javaimport cytoscape c = cytoscape() And the tighest way I see that this can be done is for Python VM to execute Java bytecodes like Python bytecodes. That is, Python VM executes Java bytecodes directly and not through object mapping which I think is that JPyPe is doing. I must say that this is part of even a fluffier dream that one day, I can take any applications and play around with it in Python. Currently, my collaborators wrote in Perl and Java, so it is not easy for me to use their work in my work. ML What is wrong with the other way around and Jython? Just curious. Stephen -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Will GPL Java eat into Python marketshare?
Stephen Eilert wrote: Maurice LING escreveu: I once wrote a partial JVM in Modula-3 (strictly a researchware effort), so I can imagine it being done technically. But why? The big problem with Java-and-Python is not the VMs underneath. It is the fact that Java has layers upon layers upon layers of idiosyncratic libraries and idioms. When you write bindings to that world (even if the bindings are generated automagically), you have to *think* in those same layers. The Python-oriented developer suddenly has to use a dozen imports in order to do things already done better in Pythonesque libraries. The main use I can see is to be able to incorporate Java applications into Python. For example, I am using Cytoscape (www.cytoscape.org) which is in Java. I do hope that I can control Cytoscape from Python and manipulate its objects from Python. Say given cytoscape.jar, I'll like to be able to do this: from cytoscape javaimport cytoscape c = cytoscape() And the tighest way I see that this can be done is for Python VM to execute Java bytecodes like Python bytecodes. That is, Python VM executes Java bytecodes directly and not through object mapping which I think is that JPyPe is doing. I must say that this is part of even a fluffier dream that one day, I can take any applications and play around with it in Python. Currently, my collaborators wrote in Perl and Java, so it is not easy for me to use their work in my work. ML What is wrong with the other way around and Jython? Nothing wrong with the other way round - JVM executing *Python bytecodes*. Cytoscape has a plugin with enables one to bring up Jython interpreter but it is way too slow - make sure you start to load it up before lunch if you want to execute a few lines of codes after lunch. ML -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Will GPL Java eat into Python marketshare?
Maurice LING wrote: Say given cytoscape.jar, I'll like to be able to do this: from cytoscape javaimport cytoscape c = cytoscape() And the tighest way I see that this can be done is for Python VM to execute Java bytecodes like Python bytecodes. That is, Python VM executes Java bytecodes directly and not through object mapping which I think is that JPyPe is doing. This kind of thing is what I wanted to do with my javaclass experiment, but I lost motivation/momentum after getting only some of the things to work. Translating Java bytecodes isn't hard for most of the instruction set, although exception handling was awkward at the time (before Python 2.5's new-style Exception class), and I'd have to think through the interpackage referencing problem again (circular references are not typically a problem in the Java package hierarchy). In the end, I couldn't justify spending the time in order to use certain pieces of software that weren't so compelling after all. I must say that this is part of even a fluffier dream that one day, I can take any applications and play around with it in Python. Currently, my collaborators wrote in Perl and Java, so it is not easy for me to use their work in my work. There's always Jython, as I tell the occasional person who tries javaclass expecting it to be better than it is. That Jython doesn't support the latest CPython features shouldn't be as huge a problem as people suspect, especially if you just want to glue Java packages together with Python. Otherwise, the PyLucene approach (gcj + bindings) might be an acceptable approach: a well performing Free Software solution even before the recent Java licensing events. Paul -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Will GPL Java eat into Python marketshare?
Paul Boddie wrote: Maurice LING wrote: Say given cytoscape.jar, I'll like to be able to do this: from cytoscape javaimport cytoscape c = cytoscape() And the tighest way I see that this can be done is for Python VM to execute Java bytecodes like Python bytecodes. That is, Python VM executes Java bytecodes directly and not through object mapping which I think is that JPyPe is doing. This kind of thing is what I wanted to do with my javaclass experiment, but I lost motivation/momentum after getting only some of the things to work. Translating Java bytecodes isn't hard for most of the instruction set, although exception handling was awkward at the time (before Python 2.5's new-style Exception class), and I'd have to think through the interpackage referencing problem again (circular references are not typically a problem in the Java package hierarchy). In the end, I couldn't justify spending the time in order to use certain pieces of software that weren't so compelling after all. I take a simplistic view that Java bytecodes is all that is to be dealt with. And the book Programming for the Java Virtual Machine by Joshua Engel did demonstrated in principle that it is possible to program in Java bytecodes. There are also other researchware which tried to compile other languages into Java bytecodes. I am not sure if exception handling etc are dealt with before bytecode level. I also envision that the core implementation of JVM is a big switch statement, just like in Python VM (the bytecode executor). Will it then be the case of adding the set of Java bytecodes into Python bytecodes and implementing Java bytecode operations? Or am I just fooling myself here? ML -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Will GPL Java eat into Python marketshare?
Maurice LING wrote: I take a simplistic view that Java bytecodes is all that is to be dealt with. Well, that and things like class loading. You'll need a library implementing the standard Java API, although that's never been hard to obtain, and the official implementation will be genuinely free to redistribute before too long as well. And the book Programming for the Java Virtual Machine by Joshua Engel did demonstrated in principle that it is possible to program in Java bytecodes. There are also other researchware which tried to compile other languages into Java bytecodes. I am not sure if exception handling etc are dealt with before bytecode level. I also envision that the core implementation of JVM is a big switch statement, just like in Python VM (the bytecode executor). It's just an instruction set, but with some fairly complicated instructions, just as you find in the Python virtual machine instruction set - don't expect them all to be like RISC instructions, or even traditional CISC instructions. Will it then be the case of adding the set of Java bytecodes into Python bytecodes and implementing Java bytecode operations? Or am I just fooling myself here? Take a look at the code, although you might want to steer clear of the import hooks initially: http://www.python.org/pypi/javaclass Paul -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Will GPL Java eat into Python marketshare?
Some think it will. Up untill now, Java has never been standard across different versions of Linux and Unix. Some think that is one reason that some developers have avoided Java in favor of Python. Now that Java has been GPL'd that might change. IMO: it won't make much difference. But I don't really know. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Will GPL Java eat into Python marketshare?
walterbyrd wrote: Some think it will. Up untill now, Java has never been standard across different versions of Linux and Unix. Some think that is one reason that some developers have avoided Java in favor of Python. Now that Java has been GPL'd that might change. IMO: it won't make much difference. But I don't really know. The change might also provide an opportunity for further expansion of jython, eating into Java marketshare -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Will GPL Java eat into Python marketshare?
walterbyrd [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Some think it will. Up untill now, Java has never been standard across different versions of Linux and Unix. Some think that is one reason that some developers have avoided Java in favor of Python. Now that Java has been GPL'd that might change. IMO: it won't make much difference. But I don't really know. Short answer: People use Python instead of Java because people (at least intelligent people) tend to avoid pain. Long answer: Changing licenses doesn't magically change Java's architecture. It is still a closed world of reinvent-the-wheel, my-way-or-the-highway. Which is antithetical to Python's promiscuous interface-with-anything approach. -- Harry George PLM Engineering Architecture -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Will GPL Java eat into Python marketshare?
walterbyrd wrote: Some think it will. Up untill now, Java has never been standard across different versions of Linux and Unix. Some think that is one reason that some developers have avoided Java in favor of Python. Now that Java has been GPL'd that might change. IMO: it won't make much difference. But I don't really know. I'm hoping for a more optimistic outcome that this may open a possibility for tigher interoperability between java programs and python programs. That is, run java class files or java codes natively on python VM. Is this still a blue sky dream? maurice -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Will GPL Java eat into Python marketshare?
Harry George [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Short answer: People use Python instead of Java because people (at least intelligent people) tend to avoid pain. Intelligent people don't suffer from fanboy sentiments. They just pick a language that works best for them. -- John MexIT: http://johnbokma.com/mexit/ personal page: http://johnbokma.com/ Experienced programmer available: http://castleamber.com/ Happy Customers: http://castleamber.com/testimonials.html -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Will GPL Java eat into Python marketshare?
John Bokma wrote: Intelligent people don't suffer from fanboy sentiments. They just pick a language that works best for them. Adding to that, they pick the language that works best for them and the situation. Python has a significant advantage in many applications because it is dynamic and can be used for rapid development. IMHO, usually more rapid than Java. Hopefully Java being GPL'd will make it easier to deploy applications, especially on Linux. There are many applications where Java has a significant advantage. I plan to make use of both. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Will GPL Java eat into Python marketshare?
John Bokma a écrit : Harry George [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Short answer: People use Python instead of Java because people (at least intelligent people) tend to avoid pain. Intelligent people don't suffer from fanboy sentiments. They just pick a language that works best for them. Which is *exactly* what Harry said... -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Will GPL Java eat into Python marketshare?
walterbyrd wrote: Some think it will. Up untill now, Java has never been standard across different versions of Linux and Unix. Some think that is one reason that some developers have avoided Java in favor of Python. Now that Java has been GPL'd that might change. IMO: it won't make much difference. But I don't really know. I don't think so. Java and Python don't really belong to the same class of programming languages: C++, Java: strongly typed, statically typed object-oriented programming languages... minimal runtime means that these languages can be compiled to native executables easily (yes, Java can now with things like GCJ and appropriate libraries) Python, Perl, Ruby: dynamically typed object-oriented programming languages... lots of runtime intelligence allows you to do things like create a new class or function at runtime, or look up a symbol based on a string of its name, or execute a string containing source code (these things make the language more flexible but pretty hard to compile to native code without embedding an interpreter) The mindset required to program effectively in C++ or Java is very different from that required to program effectively in Python or Perl, in a way that's quite separate from the syntactical distinctions between these languages... I think most programmers settle comfortably into one mindset that fits best with the tasks they do, and try not to move outside of it. The ranks of C++ programmers have already been diminished by many of them jumping to Java, since it offers less complex syntax and better cross-platform support. I expect that GPL'ed Java will accelerate the decline of C++. But I don't see Java competing directly with Python... Dan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Will GPL Java eat into Python marketshare?
Bruno Desthuilliers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John Bokma a écrit : Harry George [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Short answer: People use Python instead of Java because people (at least intelligent people) tend to avoid pain. Intelligent people don't suffer from fanboy sentiments. They just pick a language that works best for them. Which is *exactly* what Harry said... No, there is a very clear difference if one is willing to see it. -- John MexIT: http://johnbokma.com/mexit/ personal page: http://johnbokma.com/ Experienced programmer available: http://castleamber.com/ Happy Customers: http://castleamber.com/testimonials.html -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Will GPL Java eat into Python marketshare?
Matimus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John Bokma wrote: Intelligent people don't suffer from fanboy sentiments. They just pick a language that works best for them. Adding to that, they pick the language that works best for them and the situation. Yup. Python has a significant advantage in many applications because it is dynamic and can be used for rapid development. IMHO, usually more rapid than Java. Hopefully Java being GPL'd will make it easier to deploy applications, especially on Linux. There are many applications where Java has a significant advantage. I plan to make use of both. Yes, my point. I program mostly in Perl, use Java now and then, and am still working on learning Python. -- John MexIT: http://johnbokma.com/mexit/ personal page: http://johnbokma.com/ Experienced programmer available: http://castleamber.com/ Happy Customers: http://castleamber.com/testimonials.html -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Will GPL Java eat into Python marketshare?
On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 22:58:55 +, John Bokma wrote: Harry George [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Short answer: People use Python instead of Java because people (at least intelligent people) tend to avoid pain. Intelligent people don't suffer from fanboy sentiments. They just pick a language that works best for them. Hang on, are we talking about intelligent people, or the sort of people who like coding in Java? *wink* Sorry, couldn't resist :) Seriously though, there is no contradiction between the idea of people use Python instead of Java because they prefer to avoid pain and people choose the language that works best for them. They could both be true (or neither, but that's another story). We're all individuals, with our own little quirks, but we are all also human beings with a lot in common and the idea of an objectively less painful language is not silly. It may very well be that Python is objectively easier to use and less painful than Java for the majority of people. (I have no opinion on whether that it true, but merely note that it is a logical possibility.) Ease of use is not the sole reason for choosing a computer language. It is a virtue, but not the only virtue. I wouldn't like to see video drivers written in pure Python. The reality is, most programmers don't so much choose a language as have one thrust at them. I estimate (and by estimate I mean guess) that 90% of coders have never learnt a second language, and 99% have never learnt a third. We're spoiled here, because the sort of people who regularly contribute to comp.lang.* are often those with experience with three, four, a dozen languages -- hardly representative of the coders who churn out VB code all day, or those who learn nothing but Java at Uni and then go straight into a Java job. We often see on comp.lang.* people who programfor the love of programming. They'd program even if they weren't paid for it. But being a programmer is also done by those who program for the pay, not for the love of the job. They don't go home and night and spend three hours on Usenet answering newbies' questions. In many universities and schools, the choice is often between Java (in previous times C++) or nothing. People might choose Java in some sense, but they can hardly be said to choose Java because it works best for them if they know no other languages to compare it to! (The same naturally goes for those who only know Python, or any other language.) -- Steven D'Aprano -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Will GPL Java eat into Python marketshare?
Steven D'Aprano [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Seriously though, there is no contradiction between the idea of people use Python instead of Java because they prefer to avoid pain It sounds like a typical fanboy statement to me, since it implies that Java is always a pain, and Python is perfect. I can't take such a statement nor the person writing it down serious at all. -- John MexIT: http://johnbokma.com/mexit/ personal page: http://johnbokma.com/ Experienced programmer available: http://castleamber.com/ Happy Customers: http://castleamber.com/testimonials.html -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
