Re: boring the reader to death (wasRe: Lambda: the Ultimate Design Flaw
Sunnan == Sunnan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Sunnan It's just that I'm having a hard time matching that quote Sunnan to what I though python was about. I thought boring code Sunnan was considered a virtue in python. (Explicit is better Sunnan than implicit, sparse is better than dense.) Boring code is code that numbs your senses with constant flow of boilerplate crap, memory management and redundant type declarations and general blah blah that you skip when you are trying to figure out what a piece of code does. It's a code that you wish you could train a monkey to write for you while you go for lunch. Think C++ or Java. -- Ville Vainio http://tinyurl.com/2prnb -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: boring the reader to death (wasRe: Lambda: the Ultimate Design Flaw
Ville Vainio wrote: Boring code is code that numbs your senses with constant flow of boilerplate crap, memory management and redundant type declarations and general blah blah that you skip when you are trying to figure out what a piece of code does. The python code I've read so far has looked like that. Not type declarations, but lng class declarations. Also, Guido recently urged people to explicitly write recursions rather than to use reduce - which I thought was completely in line with what I've seen as python's goals: readability/understandability as more important than terseness/non-boringness. It's a code that you wish you could train a monkey to write for you while you go for lunch. Think C++ or Java. Oh, yes. C++ and Java can be super boring. C++ can also be pretty hard to understand - it's not all boilerplate. I'm not saying Python is always boring (maybe I've just been in an easily bored mood when I've read Python stuff), and I'm not saying that boring is always bad. Yesterday, I read some marketing prop describing a proprietary IDE (don't remember what language) as exciting, and I went Ugh, no thanks! Give me calm computing. And then I thought - wait: I just ranted about boringness on comp.lang.python. Can't boring and calm sometimes mean the same thing? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: boring the reader to death (wasRe: Lambda: the Ultimate Design Flaw
Sunnan == Sunnan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Sunnan Ville Vainio wrote: Sunnan Also, Guido recently urged people to explicitly write Sunnan recursions rather than to use reduce - which I thought was Sunnan completely in line with what I've seen as python's goals: Sunnan readability/understandability as more important than Sunnan terseness/non-boringness. The problem w/ reduce is that it's not intuitive. You'll have to stop to think what the code w/ reduce does - effectively converting it to a normal loop (not recursion!) in your head. It's a net loss when you compare it to just reading an explicit loop as written in code. Sunnan Yesterday, I read some marketing prop describing a Sunnan proprietary IDE (don't remember what language) as Sunnan exciting, and I went Ugh, no thanks! Give me calm Sunnan computing. And then I thought - wait: I just ranted about Sunnan boringness on comp.lang.python. Can't boring and calm Sunnan sometimes mean the same thing? Not for me at least. 'Boring' implies a certain sense of frustration, not getting anywhere and generally feeling like you are wasting your time. Human attention is a limited resource, and being bored leads to loss of attention. -- Ville Vainio http://tinyurl.com/2prnb -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: boring the reader to death (wasRe: Lambda: the Ultimate Design Flaw
Sunnan: The python code I've read so far has looked like that. Not type declarations, but lng class declarations. What do you mean? Lots of repetitive self.variable=variable in the __init__ method? Use of classes when you would use closures? Or maybe you are comparing with CLOS classes, which are pretty slim, since the (multi)methods are defined outside them? Michele Simionato -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: boring the reader to death (wasRe: Lambda: the Ultimate Design Flaw
Sunnan wrote:
Aahz wrote:
(snip)
print foo is, foo
Is the space added automatically? (Like awk does, if you add a comma.)
Yes. But you can also format it how you like:
print foo is %s and that's a good news, my friends % foo
--
bruno desthuilliers
python -c print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
p in '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'.split('@')])
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: boring the reader to death (wasRe: Lambda: the Ultimate Design Flaw
Sunnan == Sunnan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Sunnan It's just that I'm having a hard time matching that quote Sunnan to what I though python was about. I thought boring code Sunnan was considered a virtue in python. There's a difference between unsurprising and boring. The coffee I drank this afternoon, for instance, did not surprise me, but I still enjoyed it. -- Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, University of Canterbury, Christchurch, New Zealand http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/~greg -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: boring the reader to death (wasRe: Lambda: the Ultimate Design Flaw
Aahz wrote: Note very, VERY, *VERY* carefully that the quote says nothing about boring code. The quote explicitly refers to reams of trivial code as boring -- and that's quite true. Consider this distinction: Thank you for this important clarification. if foo == 'red': print 'foo is red' elif foo == 'blue': print 'foo is blue' versus print foo is, foo Is the space added automatically? (Like awk does, if you add a comma.) I'm sure you can think of many other examples -- real examples -- if you put your mind to work; Guido's point is about the essential necessity of refactoring and rewriting code for conciseness and clarity. Which is a good point to make in almost any language, for code that is to be maintained. Sunnan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: boring the reader to death (wasRe: Lambda: the Ultimate Design Flaw
Tim Peters wrote: [Aahz] The joy of coding Python should be in seeing short, concise, readable classes that express a lot of action in a small amount of clear code -- not in reams of trivial code that bores the reader to death. --GvR [Sunnan] Can anyone please point me to the text that quote was taken from? I tried to use a search engine but I only found quotations, not the source. That's because it was originally in email to a company-internal mailing list. If you're willing to move to Fredericksburg, VA and work for Zope Corp, perhaps they'll let you in to the PythonLabs list archives. Fair warning: I work for Zope Corp, and I'm not sure I can get into those archives. So don't switch jobs _just_ for that. It's just that I'm having a hard time matching that quote to what I though python was about. I thought boring code was considered a virtue in python. (Explicit is better than implicit, sparse is better than dense.) Because what is boring? The opposite of dense, tense, intense. Utterly predictable; it's like the combination of all my prejudices. Even before I knew, I thought Bet Python separates statements from expressions. Sunnan PS. (People easily offended can substitute boring for readable in the above text.) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: boring the reader to death (wasRe: Lambda: the Ultimate Design Flaw
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Sunnan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [Aahz] The joy of coding Python should be in seeing short, concise, readable classes that express a lot of action in a small amount of clear code -- not in reams of trivial code that bores the reader to death. --GvR It's just that I'm having a hard time matching that quote to what I though python was about. I thought boring code was considered a virtue in python. (Explicit is better than implicit, sparse is better than dense.) Because what is boring? The opposite of dense, tense, intense. Utterly predictable; it's like the combination of all my prejudices. Even before I knew, I thought Bet Python separates statements from expressions. Note very, VERY, *VERY* carefully that the quote says nothing about boring code. The quote explicitly refers to reams of trivial code as boring -- and that's quite true. Consider this distinction: if foo == 'red': print 'foo is red' elif foo == 'blue': print 'foo is blue' versus print foo is, foo I'm sure you can think of many other examples -- real examples -- if you put your mind to work; Guido's point is about the essential necessity of refactoring and rewriting code for conciseness and clarity. -- Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) * http://www.pythoncraft.com/ The joy of coding Python should be in seeing short, concise, readable classes that express a lot of action in a small amount of clear code -- not in reams of trivial code that bores the reader to death. --GvR -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
boring the reader to death (wasRe: Lambda: the Ultimate Design Flaw
Aahz wrote: The joy of coding Python should be in seeing short, concise, readable classes that express a lot of action in a small amount of clear code -- not in reams of trivial code that bores the reader to death. --GvR Can anyone please point me to the text that quote was taken from? I tried to use a search engine but I only found quotations, not the source. Sunnan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: boring the reader to death (wasRe: Lambda: the Ultimate Design Flaw
[Aahz] The joy of coding Python should be in seeing short, concise, readable classes that express a lot of action in a small amount of clear code -- not in reams of trivial code that bores the reader to death. --GvR [Sunnan] Can anyone please point me to the text that quote was taken from? I tried to use a search engine but I only found quotations, not the source. That's because it was originally in email to a company-internal mailing list. If you're willing to move to Fredericksburg, VA and work for Zope Corp, perhaps they'll let you in to the PythonLabs list archives. Fair warning: I work for Zope Corp, and I'm not sure I can get into those archives. So don't switch jobs _just_ for that. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
