Re: do ya still use python?

[J. Pic]

CPython powers Mars Ingenuity Helicopter:
https://github.com/readme/nasa-ingenuity-helicopter

All CPython contributors got a new GitHub badge to show off.
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: do ya still use python?

[David Lowry-Duda]

> You wouldn't see Tim Peters or even Guido here nowadays, and
> Steven D'Aprano was IMO forced out for no good reason ... you see
> the results here every day...

What happened to Steven D'Aprano?

- DLD
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: do ya still use python?

[David Lowry-Duda]

> Are there reasons why someone might prefer StackOverflow to this list?
> Are they more to do with the person, or something the Python Community
> should address?

I think general discoverability is a driving force. A beginner has a 
problem, goes to google, types in their problem, and sees some links to 
the documentation and stackoverflow first (typically). And that's where 
they are.

SO also ranks responses to a question, which the list doesn't do. There 
are lots of things that I think SO is better suited for than mailing 
lists --- but of course I also think there are lots of things the list 
is better suited for than fora like SO.

- DLD
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: do ya still use python?

[Terry Reedy]

On 4/21/2021 6:07 AM, o1bigtenor wrote:

On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 6:26 PM Terry Reedy  wrote:


On 4/20/2021 4:32 AM, Alan Gauld via Python-list wrote:


We see the same trend on the tutor list, traffic has dropped off
by a factor of 3-5 times what it was at its peak. And the questions
are changing too, fewer basic things about loops and writing
functions, more about specific library modules and such.


I suspect that at least some such questions have good answers on
StackOverflow that questioners could profitably read first.


Respectfully - - - - I would disagree.
I am finding when I'm looking for answers that the generalist sites
most often cough up responses - - - - - yes there are responses
- - - but those responses are for software of at best 5 to 6 years
ago and all too often its for software of 15 + years ago.


Alan and I were specifically discussing questions about Python standard 
library modules, which are currently maintained and mostly stable.  Many 
beginner questions are likely to have useful answers tagged , 
, and sometimes something more specific.


Someone on the tutor list could even look on SO for the beginner and 
perhaps answer with a link.  But that is for Alan, etc, to decide.  I 
merely offered that as a suggestion.


--
Terry Jan Reedy

--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

RE: do ya still use python?

[Avi Gross via Python-list]

Yes, Python is a moving target, as are quite a few such things these days.

The changes when release 3 came along mean that what you find by a search
may not apply to your situation. And as new features get added, some advice
might shift. The presence of so many add-on modules also means that the
simplest way to do something is not to do it but use code that has already
been done and hopefully has been used enough so many bugs have been ironed
out.

Modules and packages of various sorts also can change and I often see a neat
new feature that is later deprecated as it is replaced by a neater or more
abstract version or ...

So it is sometimes worthwhile to put humans back into the process after
searching for something like how to read in data from some file format. I
once wanted to be able to read in data from EXCEL sheets in another language
and spent many hours trying various packages a search suggested but oddly,
one after another did not work for ME. One, for example, required a JAVA
installation different than what I had. Some packages were no longer
available or maintained. Some did not easily do what I wanted. Some worked
with older versions of the EXCEL file formats.  I eventually found one I
liked. But a human with experience might have steered me to something
up-front that was being used NOW by people with minimal problems and that
was compatible.

There is of course much to be said for asking people to show they did SOME
work before bothering others. I always do that if I can guess at what
keywords might help zoom in on useful info. But as the internet continues to
grow, there are too many things found that are not helpful especially when
some search words have alternate meanings as in other human languages. 

But perhaps the purpose of some groups varies. If you want a discussion of
the best way to do something and what the tradeoffs might be or whether it
may be better to use other tools, or which way to add a new feature to your
language and so on, you want different kinds of people involved depending on
the topic. Alan runs a tutorial group of sorts intended to help people who
are often quite new to python. I hung out there a while and realized my
personal interests tended to be in other directions than helping people do
things in simple basic ways. I was way beyond that and interested in what is
more elegant or efficient or uses some novel feature or even how to use
modules already designed for it. But for students in a class wanting a
little hint for their homework, this is often the wrong approach. Maybe
after they have mastered some basics, they might benefit from looking
deeper. But at their stage, searching the internet for answers may not work
well as they may not even know how to ask the right way or be turned off by
some of what they read that assumes they already know much more.

So there really is room for many forums and methods and ideally people
should try to focus on the ones that work better for what they are doing.

-Original Message-
From: Python-list  On
Behalf Of o1bigtenor
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2021 6:07 AM
To: Terry Reedy 
Cc: Python 
Subject: Re: do ya still use python?

On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 6:26 PM Terry Reedy  wrote:
>
> On 4/20/2021 4:32 AM, Alan Gauld via Python-list wrote:
>
> > We see the same trend on the tutor list, traffic has dropped off by 
> > a factor of 3-5 times what it was at its peak. And the questions are 
> > changing too, fewer basic things about loops and writing functions, 
> > more about specific library modules and such.
>
> I suspect that at least some such questions have good answers on 
> StackOverflow that questioners could profitably read first.
>
Respectfully - - - - I would disagree.
I am finding when I'm looking for answers that the generalist sites most
often cough up responses - - - - - yes there are responses
- - - but those responses are for software of at best 5 to 6 years ago and
all too often its for software of 15 + years ago. Most often those 'answers'
just aren't applicable anymore. Not saying that there never are answers but
I've gotten to including a 'date' in my searching and then there are a not
less links proffered by the search engine!

HTH
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: do ya still use python?

[Bischoop]

On 2021-04-19, Unbreakable Disease  wrote:

>> do ya still use python?
That's why we're all here.

> almost no useful posts here for almost a year. is python dying?
It's not a Python thing, it's Usenet that's not used as much today as
decade ago. There's a lot of places in a Internet to talk Python:
Discord,FB, Forums. 

Feel free to  write some useful posts :-)

-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: do ya still use python?

[o1bigtenor]

On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 6:26 PM Terry Reedy  wrote:
>
> On 4/20/2021 4:32 AM, Alan Gauld via Python-list wrote:
>
> > We see the same trend on the tutor list, traffic has dropped off
> > by a factor of 3-5 times what it was at its peak. And the questions
> > are changing too, fewer basic things about loops and writing
> > functions, more about specific library modules and such.
>
> I suspect that at least some such questions have good answers on
> StackOverflow that questioners could profitably read first.
>
Respectfully - - - - I would disagree.
I am finding when I'm looking for answers that the generalist sites
most often cough up responses - - - - - yes there are responses
- - - but those responses are for software of at best 5 to 6 years
ago and all too often its for software of 15 + years ago. Most often
those 'answers' just aren't applicable anymore. Not saying that
there never are answers but I've gotten to including a 'date' in
my searching and then there are a not less links proffered by the
search engine!

HTH
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: do ya still use python?

[Terry Reedy]

On 4/20/2021 4:32 AM, Alan Gauld via Python-list wrote:


We see the same trend on the tutor list, traffic has dropped off
by a factor of 3-5 times what it was at its peak. And the questions
are changing too, fewer basic things about loops and writing
functions, more about specific library modules and such.


I suspect that at least some such questions have good answers on 
StackOverflow that questioners could profitably read first.


--
Terry Jan Reedy

--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: do ya still use python?

[Terry Reedy]

On 4/20/2021 5:44 PM, dn via Python-list wrote:


Are there reasons why someone might prefer StackOverflow to this list?


For programming questions with testable answers, generally yes.  But I 
sometimes advise SO questioners to redirect questions here when more 
appropriate.


Advantages include that questions and answers can be searched within a 
tag, can be commented separately,  and can be edited.  The latter is 
important.  Web forums that imitate mail lists with indelible sequential 
postings are not much better.



Are they more to do with the person, or something the Python Community
should address?


Not the first, nor the second officially.  But many Python Community 
members already answer python-tagged questions.  I specifically monitor 
python-idle questions.  The PSF could set up a imitation site, or 
perhaps sponsor 'Python Pitstop' on stackexchange, but why bother?


--
Terry Jan Reedy

--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: do ya still use python?

[dn via Python-list]

On 20/04/2021 20.32, Alan Gauld via Python-list wrote:
> On 20/04/2021 04:47, Dan Stromberg wrote:
> 
>> Actually, this list is less busy than it was a decade or two ago, but
>> that's probably because of things like stackoverflow, python-dev, pypy-dev,
>> cython-devel, python-ideas, distutils-sig, issue trackers, code-quality,
>> and probably others.
>>
>> There was a time when most python-related discussion happened here on
>> python-list/comp.lang.python.
>>
> 
> It's also a reflection of Python's maturity in the market. It is no
> longer a cute language that folks stumble across and need lots of
> support to get up and running. There are all sorts of formal and
> informal training routes available. People are far more likely
> to have a buddy at work using Python that they can ask stuff.
> 
> We see the same trend on the tutor list, traffic has dropped off
> by a factor of 3-5 times what it was at its peak. And the questions
> are changing too, fewer basic things about loops and writing
> functions, more about specific library modules and such. (That's
> why I now have time to regularly read this list instead of
> dipping in once or twice a month! :-)


+1

As @Dan says, there are now many other avenues of enquiry.

Per @Alan's own, there are also many sources of training and reference
resources. Accordingly, and particularly at the beginner end of the
trail, it is much easier to find an answer oneself (than it once was).

The Python community itself has offered those more-specialised
fora/forums partly in a bid to syphon-off such topics and thus reduce
traffic on the more general list.


Similarly, when was the last time you went to a well-attended PUG
meeting? (cf a PyCon)


Is it a 'failure', or a 'success'?

Are there reasons why someone might prefer StackOverflow to this list?
Are they more to do with the person, or something the Python Community
should address?
-- 
Regards,
=dn
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: do ya still use python?

[X Guest]

we are in ML industry where python is used widely.

On Tue, Apr 20, 2021, at 8:53 AM, Jon Ribbens via Python-list wrote:
> On 2021-04-20, Paul Rubin  > wrote:
> > Ethan Furman mailto:ethan%40stoneleaf.us>> writes:
> >> List, my apologies -- not sure how that one got through.
> >
> > It was trollishly written but was a reasonable observation on the state
> > of the Usenet group.  I didn't realize it had come through (or reached)
> > the mailing list.  Anyway the state of affairs for us Usenet die-hards
> > isn't so great.
> 
> Why do you say that? The group seems quite lively to me
> (and no I'm not counting spam etc).
> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 

--
  https://xguest.net/
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: do ya still use python?

[Alan Gauld via Python-list]

On 20/04/2021 04:47, Dan Stromberg wrote:

> Actually, this list is less busy than it was a decade or two ago, but
> that's probably because of things like stackoverflow, python-dev, pypy-dev,
> cython-devel, python-ideas, distutils-sig, issue trackers, code-quality,
> and probably others.
> 
> There was a time when most python-related discussion happened here on
> python-list/comp.lang.python.
> 

It's also a reflection of Python's maturity in the market. It is no
longer a cute language that folks stumble across and need lots of
support to get up and running. There are all sorts of formal and
informal training routes available. People are far more likely
to have a buddy at work using Python that they can ask stuff.

We see the same trend on the tutor list, traffic has dropped off
by a factor of 3-5 times what it was at its peak. And the questions
are changing too, fewer basic things about loops and writing
functions, more about specific library modules and such. (That's
why I now have time to regularly read this list instead of
dipping in once or twice a month! :-)

-- 
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos


-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: do ya still use python?

[jkn]

On Tuesday, April 20, 2021 at 7:11:41 AM UTC+1, Paul Rubin wrote:
> Jon Ribbens  writes: 
> > Why do you say that? The group seems quite lively to me (and no I'm 
> > not counting spam etc).
> No there is a lot happening in the Python world that never gets 
> mentioned here. Look at the 3.10 and 3.9.x release notes: many new 
> language features that we'd never have heard of if we only got our news 
> from here. These things would have been the topics of endless 
> discussions back in the day. The newsgroup was once a good place to 
> keep track of what was happening Python-wise, but it no longer is. This 
> is sad.

I agree with Paul - sadly this Usenet forum is seriously less valuable
than it used to be. I have been a semi-lurker here for more than 20 years
(pre Python 1.5) and the S/N ration has massively changed since then.

This is as much a reflection of the reduced status of Usenet groups as in
the rise of Python and the associated change in 'demographic'. But as
another Usenet fan I find it disappointing.

You wouldn't see Tim Peters or even Guido here nowadays, and
Steven D'Aprano was IMO forced out for no good reason ... you see
the results here every day...

J^n

-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: do ya still use python?

[Dan Stromberg]

On Mon, Apr 19, 2021 at 5:55 PM Jon Ribbens via Python-list <
python-list@python.org> wrote:

> On 2021-04-20, Paul Rubin  wrote:
> > Ethan Furman  writes:
> >> List, my apologies -- not sure how that one got through.
> >
> > It was trollishly written but was a reasonable observation on the state
> > of the Usenet group.  I didn't realize it had come through (or reached)
> > the mailing list.  Anyway the state of affairs for us Usenet die-hards
> > isn't so great.
>
> Why do you say that? The group seems quite lively to me
> (and no I'm not counting spam etc).
>
Actually, this list is less busy than it was a decade or two ago, but
that's probably because of things like stackoverflow, python-dev, pypy-dev,
cython-devel, python-ideas, distutils-sig, issue trackers, code-quality,
and probably others.

There was a time when most python-related discussion happened here on
python-list/comp.lang.python.
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: do ya still use python?

[Jon Ribbens via Python-list]

On 2021-04-20, Paul Rubin  wrote:
> Ethan Furman  writes:
>> List, my apologies -- not sure how that one got through.
>
> It was trollishly written but was a reasonable observation on the state
> of the Usenet group.  I didn't realize it had come through (or reached)
> the mailing list.  Anyway the state of affairs for us Usenet die-hards
> isn't so great.

Why do you say that? The group seems quite lively to me
(and no I'm not counting spam etc).
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: do ya still use python?

[Ethan Furman]

On 4/19/21 11:22 AM, Unbreakable Disease wrote:

[offensive drivel]

List, my apologies -- not sure how that one got through.

--
~Ethan~
Python List Moderator
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: do ya still use python?

[Unbreakable Disease]

On 19.04.2021 17:37, JWS wrote:

On Monday, April 19, 2021 at 11:44:11 AM UTC-5, Unbreakable Disease wrote:

almost no useful posts here for almost a year. is python dying?

I can't tell what group you are referencing.
comp.lang.python is still active.
I'm doing a tkinter project now.


Active for these moron spammers who keep it alive thanks to all stupid 
dudes who think Stack Overflow has an answer to every solution.



--
Tip me: bc1qtwmjzywve5v7z6jzk4dkg7v6masw2erpahsn9f

bitcoin:bc1qtwmjzywve5v7z6jzk4dkg7v6masw2erpahsn9f
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list