Re: A Python installation help doc much more friendly to newcomers? [Was Re: help]
On 7/18/20 5:02 PM, dn via Python-list wrote: > - most docs seem to try to be 'all things to all people', whereas the > differences between platforms inevitably make the writing complicated > and the reading difficult to follow. Thus, consider separating entries > by OpSys and/or installation method. Like https://docs.python.org/3/using/index.html ? -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: A Python installation help doc much more friendly to newcomers? [Was Re: help]
On 18/07/20 11:48 PM, Oscar Benjamin wrote: On Sat, 18 Jul 2020 at 05:39, dn via Python-list wrote: On 18/07/20 3:29 PM, boB Stepp wrote: On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 9:48 PM dn via Python-list wrote: On 18/07/20 1:53 PM, Castillo, Herbert S wrote: I downloaded python not to long ago, and today when I opened Python on Windows it gave me a modify setup prompt. I have tried to click on modify , repair and even uninstalled and installed it back, but when I try to open Python up again, I keep on getting the same modify setup prompt. I am not sure of what to do? Thank you in advance. Just for grins I just now glanced at the link dn provided. Yes, this is a very thorough, very accurate, very *technical* help resource. But if I were a person who had never seen a shell, cmd.exe or Powershell window, never programmed before, had no clue about how to truly use my OS, etc., I don't think I would understand a bit of this "help" document, and, at best, would find it very intimidating. If this community does wish to cater to those who are totally new to the world of programming and learning how to really use their PC at any depth, then I think a different approach or set of documents is needed. And an easier way for those playing with the idea of learning programming and Python to connect with such documentation. [snip] There is also THE Python Tutorial - the opening action is two?three pages 'in'. Is that suitably less-technical and more usable to a 'beginner'? https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/index.html I would say that the official tutorial is not targeted at the total novice. I think it used to be described as the tutorial for people with experience of programming in other languages but I might be misremembering. The main python.org page links to a "beginners guide" well actually there are two beginners guides... https://www.python.org/ ... Certainly I don't see it if I go straight to the download pages: https://www.python.org/downloads/ https://www.python.org/downloads/windows/ I think if I was new to programming or installing software in general I would find all of this quite bewildering. My experience of teaching total novice programmers is that you really can't shirk the fundamental question: how should I install this thing and start using it *before* I have any idea what I'm doing? Novices don't need to be told that there are 100 ways to do it: they need to be told exactly how to do it in a way that will work for them. ... +1, well written! For grins (as boB would say) I scanned Oracle's intro pages to Java programming (JDK), and they have a logical progression from installation instructions to "proving" the installation with the ubiquitous Hello-World first-program. Whereas the MySQL web site requires one to select the appropriate download and then remember (!) to keep reading. Whereupon the manual offers advice about testing the server, etc. Whereas those are decades old and well-established, in case of comparison the 'younger' MongoDB's documentation was more complicated. The installation of the server was not followed by a link to information about running the client, to be able to assure the system and understand the most basic (debugging?) linkage. None of these are suited to the 'smart phone' world, where software is selected from an 'app store' and once installed, 'it just works'. Is that where these neophyte users' troubles start - a disconnect between such expectations and the Python reality? (it's all very alien to my Linux world/memories of MS-Win .msi files with a check-box at the end which invited a start-up or display of suitable help files) Yes, the observation that we have folk who are quite probably downloading a command-line program(me) for the first time in their lives, but is that a valid excuse? What I've run out of time to compare-and-contrast is the advantage of pointing users at a Python-environment distribution, eg Anaconda. If 'we' are less interested in caring for beginners and their basic needs, should we point them at others who are? Observations (further to/underlining @Oscar's points): - the requirements of a beginner installing for the first time (and maybe his/her first programming language) are totally different to someone wanting to install a new version of Python or on a new machine. (ie done-it-all-before/want it to be quick-and-easy/don't bother me with loads of docs) - most docs seem to try to be 'all things to all people', whereas the differences between platforms inevitably make the writing complicated and the reading difficult to follow. Thus, consider separating entries by OpSys and/or installation method. - a reference manual is not 'the place' for beginners, who require a more tutorial/hand-holding approach - a beginners' installation tutorial should include a first program(me) and thus run through the command-line/editor/execute/REPL etc philosophies. This may be opening yet
Re: A Python installation help doc much more friendly to newcomers? [Was Re: help]
On Sat, 18 Jul 2020 at 05:39, dn via Python-list wrote: > > On 18/07/20 3:29 PM, boB Stepp wrote: > > On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 9:48 PM dn via Python-list > > wrote: > >> > >> On 18/07/20 1:53 PM, Castillo, Herbert S wrote: > >>> I downloaded python not to long ago, and today when I opened Python on > >>> Windows it gave me a modify setup prompt. I have tried to click on modify > >>> , repair and even uninstalled and installed it back, but when I try to > >>> open Python up again, I keep on getting the same modify setup prompt. I > >>> am not sure of what to do? Thank you in advance. > >> > >> > >> Regret that this mailing list does not support graphics attachments. > >> > >> Which part of https://docs.python.org/dev/using/windows.html failed? > > > > Just for grins I just now glanced at the link dn provided. Yes, this > > is a very thorough, very accurate, very *technical* help resource. > > But if I were a person who had never seen a shell, cmd.exe or > > Powershell window, never programmed before, had no clue about how to > > truly use my OS, etc., I don't think I would understand a bit of this > > "help" document, and, at best, would find it very intimidating. If > > this community does wish to cater to those who are totally new to the > > world of programming and learning how to really use their PC at any > > depth, then I think a different approach or set of documents is > > needed. And an easier way for those playing with the idea of learning > > programming and Python to connect with such documentation. > > [snip] > > There is also THE Python Tutorial - the opening action is two?three > pages 'in'. Is that suitably less-technical and more usable to a 'beginner'? > https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/index.html I would say that the official tutorial is not targeted at the total novice. I think it used to be described as the tutorial for people with experience of programming in other languages but I might be misremembering. The main python.org page links to a "beginners guide" well actually there are two beginners guides... https://www.python.org/ Under "get started" there is a link to this beginners guide: https://www.python.org/about/gettingstarted/ You can also hover over documentation and choose beginners guide to get this one: https://wiki.python.org/moin/BeginnersGuide The former starts by asking whether you are new to programming and if so suggests this page: https://wiki.python.org/moin/BeginnersGuide/NonProgrammers It also has an "installing" section which links to here: https://wiki.python.org/moin/BeginnersGuide/Download All of these have lots of information and many links to other pages. I'm not sure how you'd find the page dn linked to which is at least more direct about how to install: https://docs.python.org/dev/using/windows.html Certainly I don't see it if I go straight to the download pages: https://www.python.org/downloads/ https://www.python.org/downloads/windows/ I think if I was new to programming or installing software in general I would find all of this quite bewildering. My experience of teaching total novice programmers is that you really can't shirk the fundamental question: how should I install this thing and start using it *before* I have any idea what I'm doing? Novices don't need to be told that there are 100 ways to do it: they need to be told exactly how to do it in a way that will work for them. If I was writing the tutorial but aiming at total novices I would probably begin by suggesting to use an online shell: https://www.python.org/shell/ There could be a short guide there that explains very clearly how to do simple commands in that online shell. At that point you are ready to test the examples from page 3 of the official tutorial but I think it is still not pitched at novices: https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/introduction.html Then after a few examples and some familiarity it could be time to suggest installing locally. That should be with a no nonsense explanation that makes no reference to terminals, PATH, etc because those are just intimidating distractions to a novice at that point in time. The sympy docs have a lot of room for improvement but one of the things that is very useful for beginners there is the "Run code block in sympy live" button which means that you can follow the tutorial/docs and try things out before having anything installed locally: https://docs.sympy.org/latest/tutorial/intro.html#introduction -- Oscar -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: A Python installation help doc much more friendly to newcomers? [Was Re: help]
On 18/07/20 3:29 PM, boB Stepp wrote: On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 9:48 PM dn via Python-list wrote: On 18/07/20 1:53 PM, Castillo, Herbert S wrote: I downloaded python not to long ago, and today when I opened Python on Windows it gave me a modify setup prompt. I have tried to click on modify , repair and even uninstalled and installed it back, but when I try to open Python up again, I keep on getting the same modify setup prompt. I am not sure of what to do? Thank you in advance. Regret that this mailing list does not support graphics attachments. Which part of https://docs.python.org/dev/using/windows.html failed? Just for grins I just now glanced at the link dn provided. Yes, this is a very thorough, very accurate, very *technical* help resource. But if I were a person who had never seen a shell, cmd.exe or Powershell window, never programmed before, had no clue about how to truly use my OS, etc., I don't think I would understand a bit of this "help" document, and, at best, would find it very intimidating. If this community does wish to cater to those who are totally new to the world of programming and learning how to really use their PC at any depth, then I think a different approach or set of documents is needed. And an easier way for those playing with the idea of learning programming and Python to connect with such documentation. I think that we take a lot for granted that is second nature to most of us. Also, most of us have the mindset that even when all of this programming stuff was new to us (If we can even truly remember that anymore.), we would have the problem-solving chops to get over these hurdles. Many don't have these native inclinations. Searching online for technical solutions is completely foreign to many. Even searching for anything may be more challenging than we suspect for some. I am just a Python hobbyist/dabbler, not a pro like most of you, but I have taught kids through adults various subjects in the past, helped seniors, etc., and a lot of what we take for granted is *not* easy for many. But I believe that almost everyone that can get to the point of believing that they can perhaps learn programming, can do so, but may need some encouragement to get to that point of "self-belief". Sure, some people are just too lazy and want to be spoon-fed, but I truly believe that is a minority. Can we make this easier for those who really would like to try? Just some thoughts that I hope will be constructively received. There is also THE Python Tutorial - the opening action is two?three pages 'in'. Is that suitably less-technical and more usable to a 'beginner'? https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/index.html -- Regards =dn -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
A Python installation help doc much more friendly to newcomers? [Was Re: help]
On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 9:48 PM dn via Python-list wrote: > > On 18/07/20 1:53 PM, Castillo, Herbert S wrote: > > I downloaded python not to long ago, and today when I opened Python on > > Windows it gave me a modify setup prompt. I have tried to click on modify , > > repair and even uninstalled and installed it back, but when I try to open > > Python up again, I keep on getting the same modify setup prompt. I am not > > sure of what to do? Thank you in advance. > > > Regret that this mailing list does not support graphics attachments. > > Which part of https://docs.python.org/dev/using/windows.html failed? Just for grins I just now glanced at the link dn provided. Yes, this is a very thorough, very accurate, very *technical* help resource. But if I were a person who had never seen a shell, cmd.exe or Powershell window, never programmed before, had no clue about how to truly use my OS, etc., I don't think I would understand a bit of this "help" document, and, at best, would find it very intimidating. If this community does wish to cater to those who are totally new to the world of programming and learning how to really use their PC at any depth, then I think a different approach or set of documents is needed. And an easier way for those playing with the idea of learning programming and Python to connect with such documentation. I think that we take a lot for granted that is second nature to most of us. Also, most of us have the mindset that even when all of this programming stuff was new to us (If we can even truly remember that anymore.), we would have the problem-solving chops to get over these hurdles. Many don't have these native inclinations. Searching online for technical solutions is completely foreign to many. Even searching for anything may be more challenging than we suspect for some. I am just a Python hobbyist/dabbler, not a pro like most of you, but I have taught kids through adults various subjects in the past, helped seniors, etc., and a lot of what we take for granted is *not* easy for many. But I believe that almost everyone that can get to the point of believing that they can perhaps learn programming, can do so, but may need some encouragement to get to that point of "self-belief". Sure, some people are just too lazy and want to be spoon-fed, but I truly believe that is a minority. Can we make this easier for those who really would like to try? Just some thoughts that I hope will be constructively received. -- boB -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: python installation help
On Jul 10, 2020 1:04 PM, "Deepak Didmania" <6073sum...@gmail.com> wrote: > > please help me in installing python Visit this page: https://www.python.org/about/gettingstarted/ If you get stuck, reply-all and tell us: Your computer's operating system, Version of python you're trying to install, What you tried, Results you got that you weren't expecting. Don't attach screenshots as they probably won't come through. Bob Gailer -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: python installation help
On 2020-07-10, Deepak Didmania <6073sum...@gmail.com> wrote: > please help me in installing python Well I don't think anybody here has a Wizard Glass Ball. You need to state what is your problem, what erro message you have during istallation. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
python installation help
please help me in installing python -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
