Re: [Python-mode] python.el (from gnu emacs) vs python-mode.el
Am 22.10.2011 22:24, schrieb Brendan Miller: What features does python-mode.el have above the version of python.el that is included in GNU emacs? How do they compare? M-x py- TAB displays a buffer with commands implemented by python-mode.el resp. M-x python- TAB for python.el As command names are self-explaining, you should get a kind of review that way. as for features provided lately, have a look at the Announcements-section at https://launchpad.net/python-mode I recently tried to get ipython.el working, and found it had a dependency on python-mode.el... stuff from ipython.el has been merged into python-mode.el Just do M-x ipython This has prompted me to wonder what the real differences between these modes are. Does ropemacs work with python-mode.el? Please put this question in https://answers.launchpad.net/python-mode As other people might have that question too, that will be helpful. Thanks, Andreas -- https://launchpad.net/python-mode https://launchpad.net/s-x-emacs-werkstatt/ ___ Python-mode mailing list Python-mode@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-mode ___ Python-mode mailing list Python-mode@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-mode
[Python-mode] python.el (from gnu emacs) vs python-mode.el
What features does python-mode.el have above the version of python.el that is included in GNU emacs? How do they compare? I recently tried to get ipython.el working, and found it had a dependency on python-mode.el... This has prompted me to wonder what the real differences between these modes are. Does ropemacs work with python-mode.el? ___ Python-mode mailing list Python-mode@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-mode
Re: [Python-mode] python.el cleanup
Hi Andreas, On 3/30/2011 8:10 AM, Andreas Röhler wrote: glad to see Emacs python facilities improve. As you mention python-mode.el, there are some remarks in python.el which I feel are not correct. If some solution predates historically another, there are usually some setbacks from being the first. I am not sure which remarks you are referring to here. OTOH from my perspective python-mode.el has still some point in proceding. I don't think anybody is saying otherwise. Hopefully we may discuss the pro and cons to the benefit of users, which flavour they may choose finally. As you might have been remarked, its interwoven to an extend, you can seldom discern it clearly to the one or other origin. To me, it really doesn't matter where it originated from or who was first. If it works great, great, if it does not, let's improve it. The goal should be the best Python support for Emacs possible. BTW I'm not blaming the GNU's side. Just wanted to point at the issue so we might hopefully reduce the obstacles. Here, I am also not sure what issue or obstacles you are referring to. Christoph ___ Python-mode mailing list Python-mode@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-mode
Re: [Python-mode] python.el cleanup
Stefan Monnier wrote: The problem was with some of the other contributors, from what I remember. For example, Andreas Roehler has issues with copyright assignments: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-03/msg00029.html Besides that, in 2008 an attempt was made to make a list of all the contributors (it's presumably out-of-date now). The next step would be for someone to figure out how much each person wrote. See http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-02/msg02156.html http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-02/msg02234.html http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-02/msg02201.html and related messages. ___ Python-mode mailing list Python-mode@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-mode
Re: [Python-mode] python.el cleanup
Please don't reply on this list. Stefan Andreas == Andreas Röhler andreas.roeh...@online.de writes: Am 05.04.2011 00:24, schrieb Glenn Morris: Stefan Monnier wrote: The problem was with some of the other contributors, from what I remember. For example, Andreas Roehler has issues with copyright assignments: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-03/msg00029.html So it is. My views didn't change since. Besides that, in 2008 an attempt was made to make a list of all the contributors (it's presumably out-of-date now). The next step would be for someone to figure out how much each person wrote. Computing is about ideas, not about counting code-lines. Even if a developer noticed a bug at the other side, which helped him to choose the right alternative, the other part is involved. Copyright in computing is such a nonsense, it's a shame pretending it. But let's come to some mistakes more neareby: - Stating someone signed the copyright-papers or not doesn't belong into the comment section of a code-file. That why I coming upon and the only reason so far. - The problems of Emacs' Python edits don't result from the existence of two different development branches, where _all_ developers have some merits of every side, as pointed at above. The problems result rather from a lack of imagination what's needed to have an environment as state of the art. So please, let's not jump into that eternal copyright loop. Let's go on bug-fixing and maybe building the environment afterwards. Cheers Andreas -- https://code.launchpad.net/~a-roehler/python-mode/python-mode-components https://code.launchpad.net/s-x-emacs-werkstatt/ http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-02/msg02156.html http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-02/msg02234.html http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2008-02/msg02201.html and related messages. ___ Python-mode mailing list Python-mode@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-mode
Re: [Python-mode] python.el cleanup
;; That isn't covered by an FSF copyright assignment (?), unlike this ;; code, and seems not to be well-maintained for Emacs (though I've ;; submitted fixes). I've said before, but it's worth repeating. While I still believe that at some point I did sign a copyright assignment for my contributions to python-mode.el, I also have absolutely no problem signing one again if for whatever (unimportant) reason, the FSF does not have one on file from me. The problem was with some of the other contributors, from what I remember. Stefan ___ Python-mode mailing list Python-mode@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-mode
Re: [Python-mode] python.el cleanup
On Apr 04, 2011, at 05:46 PM, Stefan Monnier wrote: ;; That isn't covered by an FSF copyright assignment (?), unlike this ;; code, and seems not to be well-maintained for Emacs (though I've ;; submitted fixes). I've said before, but it's worth repeating. While I still believe that at some point I did sign a copyright assignment for my contributions to python-mode.el, I also have absolutely no problem signing one again if for whatever (unimportant) reason, the FSF does not have one on file from me. The problem was with some of the other contributors, from what I remember. Is there a way to check specifically? I'm sure we could get Skip, Tim, and Ken to sign papers if necessary. -Barry signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Python-mode mailing list Python-mode@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-mode
Re: [Python-mode] python.el cleanup
The problem was with some of the other contributors, from what I remember. Barry Is there a way to check specifically? I'm sure we could get Barry Skip, Tim, and Ken to sign papers if necessary. I have also volunteered relatively recently (within the last couple months) to wet sign again (which I did probably 10 years ago for the GNU folks). Skip ___ Python-mode mailing list Python-mode@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-mode
Re: [Python-mode] python.el cleanup
Am 30.03.2011 04:58, schrieb Christoph Scholtes: Stefan Monniermonn...@iro.umontreal.ca writes: Could you just clarify why they're considered obsolete (e.g. what would the user use instead)? `python-shell' is not needed since Dave's mode already had 'run-python' to invoke the python interpreter. It offers no advantages over run-python as far as I can tell except being able to toggle between a Python and a Jython shell (see below for comments on that). `python-comint-filter-function' is only called from `python-shell'. `python-file-queue' is never populated anywhere, only read from `python-comint filter-function'. `python-default-interpreter' is only used by `python-shell' and not, as advertised in its documentation, on first visiting a Python mode buffer. `python-python-command-args' and `python-jython-command-args' are only used in the `python-toggle-shell' function. `python-which-shell', `python-which-args' and `python-which-bufname' are used for toggling between the Python and Jython shell. Finally, `python-toggle-shell'. I think, that we should provide a better solution for this and therefore remove the current implementation. This code came from python-mode.el, if I traced that back right. Hi Christoph, glad to see Emacs python facilities improve. As you mention python-mode.el, there are some remarks in python.el which I feel are not correct. If some solution predates historically another, there are usually some setbacks from being the first. OTOH from my perspective python-mode.el has still some point in proceding. Hopefully we may discuss the pro and cons to the benefit of users, which flavour they may choose finally. As you might have been remarked, its interwoven to an extend, you can seldom discern it clearly to the one or other origin. BTW I'm not blaming the GNU's side. Just wanted to point at the issue so we might hopefully reduce the obstacles. Cheers Andreas -- https://code.launchpad.net/~a-roehler/python-mode/python-mode-components https://code.launchpad.net/s-x-emacs-werkstatt/ Python interpreter selection should be universal and not only support Jython and CPython, but also IronPyton, PyPy etc. I would like to implement a better solution for this as soon as Fabian's changes are installed. I am using IronPython quite a bit and it would be nice to be able to switch flexibly between different interpreters. Christoph ___ Python-mode mailing list Python-mode@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-mode
Re: [Python-mode] python.el cleanup
Thanks for CC'ing me. I'm now subscribed to emacs-devel via Gmane. On Mar 30, 2011, at 04:10 PM, Andreas Röhler wrote: glad to see Emacs python facilities improve. As you mention python-mode.el, there are some remarks in python.el which I feel are not correct. If some solution predates historically another, there are usually some setbacks from being the first. OTOH from my perspective python-mode.el has still some point in proceding. Hopefully we may discuss the pro and cons to the benefit of users, which flavour they may choose finally. Yes, let's please try to converge Python support in Emacs as much as possible. I've heard there are now 4 Python modes, which if true, is really not helping users. All history aside, I applaud efforts to find ways to consolidate the modes, keeping in mind the features and behavior users find important from each of the flavors. Andreas is doing the majority of the work on python-mode.el these days, and we have a vibrant community on python-mode@python.org and an active project on Launchpad. I personally am much more of a user than developer these days (too busy with other things Pythonic), but by no means the only person using python-mode.el. Cheers, -Barry signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Python-mode mailing list Python-mode@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-mode
Re: [Python-mode] python.el
Eric in all seriousness, please don't waste any more time on the free Eric software foundation. I have decided to not support them anymore Eric since Stallman told me that the needs of free software come before Eric the needs of disabled people. +1. S ___ Python-mode mailing list Python-mode@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-mode
Re: [Python-mode] python.el
Am 03.02.2011 22:48, schrieb Aaron Culich: On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 1:13 PM,s...@pobox.com wrote: Georg - From reading emacs-devel, it seems that the python.el has made Georg changes to the mode and explicitly taken them out of the Georg copyright assignment for the FSF, so Emacs upstream can't include Georg them. Georg So now we are at three different python modes for Emacs... :| I'm not sure I understand. Someone forked python.el but won't allow the changes to go back into the GNU version? Wouldn't that violate the GPL or LGPL. Who did this? Copyright assignment is an issue separate from the license itself. To the extent that Dave's version is derived from the existing python.el then the GNU GPL still applies to his version of python.el if he distributes it to other people. He is the owner of the new code that he has written, so that means if he finds someone that redistributes his code in a manner that is violating the GNU GPL license, then he has the legal standing to pursue that violation in court as the copyright holder. However, no one else has the right to pursue it in court on his behalf; you could bring a case to court, but it would be thrown out in just the same way as if you tried to bring a lawsuit against someone illegally redistributing MS Word; you can't sue someone for that, but Microsoft can if they chose to. The license, whether free or proprietary, can only be enforced in the courts by the copyright holder. The issue of enforcement is one of reasons that the GNU project long ago made a requirement that any code contributions accepted back into the code base and officially branded as GNU software must also have any accompanying copyright assignment. There are other reasons, as well, including protection from patents so that it would prevent someone from contributing source code to the GNU project on one hand, and then on the other hand using patents against the same set of code. You can read that in the language of one of the example copyright assignment forms I've linked to below. -Aaron Here is some further reading: An official statement about why they require copyright assignment: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-assign.html An example of the copyright assignment form http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc/2002-09/msg00678.html Excerpt from the above form intended to protect against harm from patents: The Assigner hereby agrees that if it has or acquires hereafter any patent or interface copyright or other intellectual property interest dominating the program enhanced by the Work (or use of that program), such dominating interest will not be used to undermine the effect of this assignment, i.e. the Foundation and the general public will be licensed to use, in that program and its derivative works, without royalty or limitation, the subject matter of the dominating interest. This license provision will be binding on the assignees of, or other successors to, the dominating interest, as well as on the Assigner. Hi Aaron, saw you digged into this only after sending my short statement with other post. Sorry for that, would have been more explicit seeing the interest in the matter. It is wast one beside. FSF thinks by making these assignment provisions, --partly to the extent of the contributors, setting them on risk rather than the FSF itself-- to do something good. Far from that: by raising the level of specification already it provides uncertainty rather than certainty. Let me point at the risks already introduced by GPL in this globalised world. Any conflict around would endanger contributors, as being summoned before a Bostonian court many of them will not be able to pay the costs. From this perspective GPL already bears a --rather unspecified-- but potential menace and danger for all using it. Decided taking that risk, as you see. But I'm not willing to take more. As for copy-rights I'm protected by our domestic laws, which promess even gratis assistance in certain cases of conflicts. Why should I give up that protection by signing up to US-courts? Andreas -- https://code.launchpad.net/~a-roehler/python-mode/python-mode-components https://code.launchpad.net/s-x-emacs-werkstatt/ ___ Python-mode mailing list Python-mode@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-mode
Re: [Python-mode] python.el
[ ... ] He must have a big bee in his bonnet. Always being patient with the genial. Which permits being patient with the common one, including myself. :-) Cheers Andreas ___ Python-mode mailing list Python-mode@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-mode
Re: [Python-mode] python.el
On Feb 04, 2011, at 09:16 AM, Andreas Röhler wrote: However, let me clarify: Emacs _can_ include, as long it is GPL and it is. But they won't. And so we can. Yes, we're not bound by the same copyright assignment policy. It's just to give up the insane copyright-policy, where I see no legitime reason for, which denigrates the GPL as such. The FSF has their reasons, which I think are legitimate for them. As much as I wish we could merge all the different versions and get python-mode.el into GNU Emacs, it may simply be impossible - or not worth the effort. Apologies for fanning those old flames again. -Barry signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Python-mode mailing list Python-mode@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-mode
Re: [Python-mode] python.el
Am 04.02.2011 16:30, schrieb Barry Warsaw: On Feb 04, 2011, at 09:16 AM, Andreas Röhler wrote: However, let me clarify: Emacs _can_ include, as long it is GPL and it is. But they won't. And so we can. Yes, we're not bound by the same copyright assignment policy. It's just to give up the insane copyright-policy, where I see no legitime reason for, which denigrates the GPL as such. The FSF has their reasons, Hi Barry, I'm consenting to that. There is some rationale. which I think are legitimate for them. As much as I wish we could merge all the different versions and get python-mode.el into GNU Emacs, it may simply be impossible - or not worth the effort. Policies tend to change. BTW assigned the disclaimer of FSF and there are some lines by me already in GNU Emacs. So assignment is not an absolute barrier even now. :-) Andreas Apologies for fanning those old flames again. -Barry ___ Python-mode mailing list Python-mode@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-mode
Re: [Python-mode] python.el
On 2/4/2011 12:37 PM, Andreas Röhler wrote: Am 04.02.2011 16:30, schrieb Barry Warsaw: On Feb 04, 2011, at 09:16 AM, Andreas Röhler wrote: oh bloody hell, this is the third time I've seen you guys go around this barn. :-) try something different like merging work with the other other python mode or be my coding slave...er, minion... ah, friend with editing privileges to help me make progress on accessibility needs. in all seriousness, please don't waste any more time on the free software foundation. I have decided to not support them anymore since Stallman told me that the needs of free software come before the needs of disabled people. ---eric ___ Python-mode mailing list Python-mode@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-mode
Re: [Python-mode] python.el
On Feb 03, 2011, at 09:23 PM, Georg Brandl wrote: - From reading emacs-devel, it seems that the python.el has made changes to the mode and explicitly taken them out of the copyright assignment for the FSF, so Emacs upstream can't include them. So now we are at three different python modes for Emacs... :| Wonderful. http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel/135075 We should reach out and see if there's another opportunity for them to adopt python-mode.el. Anybody want to take that on? :) -Barry signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Python-mode mailing list Python-mode@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-mode
Re: [Python-mode] python.el
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Am 03.02.2011 22:13, schrieb s...@pobox.com: Georg - From reading emacs-devel, it seems that the python.el has made Georg changes to the mode and explicitly taken them out of the Georg copyright assignment for the FSF, so Emacs upstream can't include Georg them. Georg So now we are at three different python modes for Emacs... :| I'm not sure I understand. Someone forked python.el but won't allow the changes to go back into the GNU version? Wouldn't that violate the GPL or LGPL. Who did this? Sorry, the word author is missing in my original message. See the thread linked by Barry, in particular the message by Stefan Monnier, for more details. Georg -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAk1LGwUACgkQN9GcIYhpnLBfZwCgj4NW4Z9Tw58iQkg861BoEaMX G8wAoJQS+Vm5zrphK3Bj1kw9D/9OuZ9b =WiY2 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Python-mode mailing list Python-mode@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-mode
Re: [Python-mode] python.el
Barry Wonderful. Barry http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel/135075 Wasn't a lot of our heartburn alwhile ago precipitated by Dave Love? He of the massive-patch-which-must-not-be-divided? In fact, isn't he the original author of the the python.el which *is* delivered with GNU Emacs? He must have a big bee in his bonnet. Skip ___ Python-mode mailing list Python-mode@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-mode
Re: [Python-mode] python.el
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Am 03.02.2011 22:19, schrieb s...@pobox.com: Barry Wonderful. Barry http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel/135075 Wasn't a lot of our heartburn alwhile ago precipitated by Dave Love? He of the massive-patch-which-must-not-be-divided? In fact, isn't he the original author of the the python.el which *is* delivered with GNU Emacs? He must have a big bee in his bonnet. All true -- well, except for the last one, which I don't really know ;) Georg -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAk1LHaAACgkQN9GcIYhpnLBH2gCeKSzCOMd08HJUBmWZVfNJVW9T uL4AniwgCOm6f6gC+fG007mayVZbWt4t =H4q0 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Python-mode mailing list Python-mode@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-mode
Re: [Python-mode] python.el
On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 1:13 PM, s...@pobox.com wrote: Georg - From reading emacs-devel, it seems that the python.el has made Georg changes to the mode and explicitly taken them out of the Georg copyright assignment for the FSF, so Emacs upstream can't include Georg them. Georg So now we are at three different python modes for Emacs... :| I'm not sure I understand. Someone forked python.el but won't allow the changes to go back into the GNU version? Wouldn't that violate the GPL or LGPL. Who did this? Copyright assignment is an issue separate from the license itself. To the extent that Dave's version is derived from the existing python.el then the GNU GPL still applies to his version of python.el if he distributes it to other people. He is the owner of the new code that he has written, so that means if he finds someone that redistributes his code in a manner that is violating the GNU GPL license, then he has the legal standing to pursue that violation in court as the copyright holder. However, no one else has the right to pursue it in court on his behalf; you could bring a case to court, but it would be thrown out in just the same way as if you tried to bring a lawsuit against someone illegally redistributing MS Word; you can't sue someone for that, but Microsoft can if they chose to. The license, whether free or proprietary, can only be enforced in the courts by the copyright holder. The issue of enforcement is one of reasons that the GNU project long ago made a requirement that any code contributions accepted back into the code base and officially branded as GNU software must also have any accompanying copyright assignment. There are other reasons, as well, including protection from patents so that it would prevent someone from contributing source code to the GNU project on one hand, and then on the other hand using patents against the same set of code. You can read that in the language of one of the example copyright assignment forms I've linked to below. -Aaron Here is some further reading: An official statement about why they require copyright assignment: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-assign.html An example of the copyright assignment form http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc/2002-09/msg00678.html Excerpt from the above form intended to protect against harm from patents: The Assigner hereby agrees that if it has or acquires hereafter any patent or interface copyright or other intellectual property interest dominating the program enhanced by the Work (or use of that program), such dominating interest will not be used to undermine the effect of this assignment, i.e. the Foundation and the general public will be licensed to use, in that program and its derivative works, without royalty or limitation, the subject matter of the dominating interest. This license provision will be binding on the assignees of, or other successors to, the dominating interest, as well as on the Assigner. ___ Python-mode mailing list Python-mode@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-mode
Re: [Python-mode] python.el
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On Feb 03, 2011, at 10:13 PM, Georg Brandl wrote: Would we be able to find all the contributors and get them to sign papers for the FSF? Otherwise there's no need to even think about that step. At one point in the distant past we *did* that and sent it to the FSF (IIRC, Tim Peters, Ken M. and myself at the very least). IMHO, they lost the paperwork and we've been lax about tracking it ever since getting rebuffed. But aside from that, I would certainly be willing and able to assign copyright for my changes. Again. I haven't looked at the changelogs in a long time so I don't know how easy it would be to track everyone else down. Tim, Ken, Skip, Andreas, you should all be possible. I don't know if that's enough. - -Barry -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJNSyPbAAoJEBJutWOnSwa/AGIP/0YUutvgBUIqmFVuj+w7dTL7 Lyx0w75+z5zsj6PdlEXqmiYxMgaiyoMeLTsunVbBAGh1wWZMHI9/LojPx580eKa5 1UzspXuZ/fPZFCZjuAA0WvHRQtb3hGVLMOF/Hh/NDg8KHJfj4Cx9gfBDATc0YdOT agMYjPvQLXeT+mfzfNRaLITPEBMkJxXa6G38uu7HkbNq0/AD6/RWFjRPUsJaOOE1 XEriv/8RXjBgrjceyJx7BSq6VeKcu1ZGd/PPw1j+obFojZlnN7TUZ2+S7lzwLvbO KTs+Til5SdIItG4ow1QSfFA0rXcACDuYUY3uE/a4U4mBsIA7egOJiuLFEabZX6eL RcvqjO+9lbxjGo+QN3WjkadWcR8sAQXayJCa/ZPg8rP/ZSfy+2ad5F9PQ4fZ8gzG axJINflyNK95ibuFq8QTmHuUj5FmkRMw0XCqmA5KHiKzLnWf/DgugTbQVwf5bClc 6WDLIm2n3f1g6GZHfQgf+s90gp3+Nork7FAa51SzTvBPVucSlK2V9oS9jiyT73m2 U0N1gjohR269gDwG9GfMPg6PSA4ZM0mWZ5tz6lCG3ZmpRV7KirXp5Uc+0x1ngT4W yjpu8eXHmmGxLN9hjwyU/nOuRw2LFNLhxeeolBfOjvonRWhGCuPhaLcu+W986cV4 qfOKbLaheOCzdyFH7KJ9 =+Rvs -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Python-mode mailing list Python-mode@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-mode
