RE: [Pythonmac-SIG] GUI design tools
Based on the statement above it looks as if wxWindows is the more mature and stable GUI toolkit for cross-platform on OSX. Is it worth learning WX? or will PyQt catch up? or does anyone even know the answer to that? I guess you can use PyQt on OSX, I never tried it, but I need to develop also on WinXP, and Qt is commercial for Windows. Second, are there tools to interface directly to Cocoa or Carbon Look after PyObjC. Looks like one can use Xcode Tools to build a GUI. Best regards, Henning Hraban Ramm Südkurier Medienhaus / MediaPro Support/Admin/Development Dept. ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] GUI design tools
On Mon, Mar 14, 2005 at 10:28:48AM +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Based on the statement above it looks as if wxWindows is the more mature and stable GUI toolkit for cross-platform on OSX. Is it worth learning WX? or will PyQt catch up? or does anyone even know the answer to that? I guess you can use PyQt on OSX, I never tried it, but I need to develop also on WinXP, and Qt is commercial for Windows. For those who want to develop non-commercial software, the next version of Qt will also be released under GPL also for windows second quarter 2005. PyQt bindings under GPL should follow. -- Truls A. Tangstad - [EMAIL PROTECTED] e r o c a m p.org ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] GUI design tools
By the way, DialogBlocks is another option, also a commercial product from one of the core (indeed, the founder) wx developers. http://www.anthemion.co.uk/dialogblocks/ I believe the OS-X version may still be listed as beta, but it hasn't shown any problems for me with a quick check-out. At least runs long enough for me to check it out quickly, and it seems solid and nice. You can try it out (with restrictions) before buying. Interesting, that one hadn't shown up in any of my searches. That still doesn't give you an all-in-one IDE, but the pieces are there. Yes. I'm not debating that it is not possible to get something working. I'm stating that OSX is behind the other two platforms in terms of polished tools for it. By the way, I'm curious: My impression is that all-in-one GUI Point-and-click development environments are much easier on the newbie, but I'm not the least bit convinced that they increase productivity for folks that develop everyday. Has anyone seen any kind of study comparing productivity between a GUI IDE and the old command-line + editor approach? I'm no newbie, other than to Python itself. I write a great deal of software, and earn a rather respectable income based on it. For me, productivity is partially measured by my enjoyment of the space my mind lives in roughly 16 hours a day. If I had a plain text editor or a buggy freeware thing for a workspace, I'd probably do a lot less coding. I'm not saying this is an issue for everyone, or even anyone else at all. It is an issue of enjoying what I do, and having tools that make my job easier, more fun, more visual, more playful, whatever... Not to mention that this group would be about the last to provide some unbiased polling on that particular topic. Time to make room for some Linux boxes, as Linux has commercial tools available. Interestingly, I don't use commercial tools, and have also found Linux to be a much easier environment. In contrast, I'd say the advantage of Linux over OS-X is mostly in the non-commercial realm. For instance, I don't think any of the mentioned tools (Flash, Director, Revolution, RealBasic) are available on linux. Revolution is. The new RealBasic is. Flash has playback. I didn't mean to imply that I'm only interested in commercial products, or that Linux is the best place to find commercial products. I'm interested in the quality of commercial products, and (somewhat oddly) those currently exist on Linux rather than OSX. Windows as well, but I'm only willing to stoop so low. I do think it's odd that people are saying that only commercial tools are robust and supported, and yet want to use Python. It isn't an issue of wanting everything to be free. I'm not interested in Python because it is free as in beer, but because it is open. Open source has many benefits beyond saving a buck and sloppy tool sets. There are enough compelling reasons to use Python, even if a nice authoring tool costs a couple hundred bucks. Personally, I'd like us to focus on the quality of the tools (including installation, support and documentation), rather than whether they are proprietary or not. Personally, I've found both proprietary and open-source software to be both excellent and crappy by all these measures. You seem to think I want to pay for something. I want the QUALITY of commercial software e.g. commercial quality... or something people would be willing to pay for. If you can't see a difference between some of the dot-seven release tools on OSX, and something like Komodo... well, I don't expect to convince you. The point is, I'd be perfectly happy on OSX, so long as there are tools which meet my standards, payware or not. But there aren't currently. I have high hopes that someday there will be. By the way to second someone's comments about a TK- GUI-Builder: wx will give you advantages over TK that no nifty GUI-builder will make up for (unless you need the TK Canvas widget) Fair enough. I think I mentioned how I expected to use the TK tools for quick prototypes, and was willing to hand-code wx where needed. One last comment: while I agree that much of the MacPython experience feels alpha or beta quality, I don't agree that it is fixed at that level. It has gotten Much, Much better over the last few years, and I expect to see it keep improving. Ooops. If I implied that it would never get better on OSX, I didn't mean to. I was refering to the landscape today, in comparison to the other platforms. Thanks Jack, Bob, Kevin O, etc, etc. for a job very well done! Indeed. -- Troy Rollins RPSystems, Ltd. www.rpsystems.net ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
[Pythonmac-SIG] GUI design tools
I have experience with OOP, OOAD and have about 16 years experience writing various stand-alone, client/server and n-tier business applications. I am getting a handle on Python, and I have written a couple of faceless applications with it. As Bob wrote, wx seems to be the best cross-platform choice. Regarding 3-tier bussiness apps you should have a look at dabo (based on wx); it's not yet mature and esp. strange on OSX, but perhaps you can help them. Regarding client-server stuff I'd suggest twisted (huge framework of network stuff, event based). see http://www.wxpython.org/ http://www.dabodev.com/ http://twistedmatrix.com/ Best regards, Henning Hraban Ramm Südkurier Medienhaus / MediaPro Support/Admin/Development Dept. ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] GUI design tools
Thanks to everyone who replied. The information is useful and I will investigate each option. - Mark On Mar 9, 2005, at 11:42 AM, Mark Phillips wrote: This may be a perennial subject. If this is an oft-repeated request, I sincerely apologize for wasting bandwidth. [snip] ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] GUI design tools
Mark Phillips wrote: Thanks to everyone who replied. The information is useful and I will investigate each option. One other note. Boa is worth checking out for an integrated GUI design tool and IDE, but I'm not sure it's ready to go on OS-X. Last I heard, it wasn't yet working with wxPython 2.5.*, which is really required for it to work well on OS-X. PythonCard has been actively targeting OS-X as well. For less integrated tools, there are a few GUI layout tools for wxPython: wxDesigner, Dialog Block, wxGlade, XrcEd, ??? The only one I've used is wxDesigner, and while I still prefer to do GUI layout with code (and Sizers, definitely take the time to wrap your brain around Sizers), other find these tools very helpful. -Chris -- Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer NOAA/ORR/HAZMAT (206) 526-6959 voice 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] GUI design tools
The only one I've used is wxDesigner, and while I still prefer to do GUI layout with code (and Sizers, definitely take the time to wrap your brain around Sizers), other find these tools very helpful. It really seems that on OSX, if you want to build x-plat native interfaces, you are pretty much going to do it with wx, and code. All of the graphical design tools for doing it are otherwise too buggy or unfinished to be productive. (pyObjC being the exception, but this isn't x-plat.) -- Troy Rollins RPSystems, Ltd. www.rpsystems.net ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] GUI design tools
On Mar 10, 2005, at 5:02 PM, Troy Rollins wrote: The only one I've used is wxDesigner, and while I still prefer to do GUI layout with code (and Sizers, definitely take the time to wrap your brain around Sizers), other find these tools very helpful. It really seems that on OSX, if you want to build x-plat native interfaces, you are pretty much going to do it with wx, and code. All of the graphical design tools for doing it are otherwise too buggy or unfinished to be productive. (pyObjC being the exception, but this isn't x-plat.) -- Troy Rollins That is how I have found the situation. I use WingIDE for editing and debugging, but it doesn't include any graphic designer for wx. I wish something that did worked, or that I could get it to work. Several half-there solutions; but everything I've tried either isn't ready for OS X or isn't ready for prime time. Charles Hartman ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] GUI design tools
Charles Hartman wrote: That is how I have found the situation. I use WingIDE for editing and debugging, but it doesn't include any graphic designer for wx. I wish something that did worked, or that I could get it to work. Several half-there solutions; but everything I've tried either isn't ready for OS X or isn't ready for prime time. Have you tried wxDesigner? It's commercial, but quite reasonable. And I thought someone had built a wxGlade package for OS-X. -Chris -- Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer NOAA/ORR/HAZMAT (206) 526-6959 voice 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] GUI design tools
It crashes for me all the time; I found it unusable at this stage. Charles Hartman Professor of English, Poet in Residence http://cherry.conncoll.edu/cohar http://villex.blogspot.com On Mar 10, 2005, at 6:41 PM, Chris Barker wrote: Chris Barker wrote: I thought someone had built a wxGlade package for OS-X. and here it is: http://www.wordtech-software.com/wxglade.html -Chris -- Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer NOAA/ORR/HAZMAT (206) 526-6959 voice 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
[Pythonmac-SIG] GUI design tools
This may be a perennial subject. If this is an oft-repeated request, I sincerely apologize for wasting bandwidth. I have a database application I would like to build in Python. I use MacOS X as my primary machine, but historically I have supported old MacOS and Windows machines. This makes it hard for me to abandon the cross-platform mindset. I like tools that ease the creation and deployment of applications. The ideal solution for me would be a tool set that is similar to popular RAD tools such as 4D, Omnis Studio and the like. Using these have spoiled me rotten as a programmer, and I find myself balking at the installation requirements of the pythonic stuff I have looked at. That is, as I work through the steps I wonder how on earth an end user will deal with this. I have experience with OOP, OOAD and have about 16 years experience writing various stand-alone, client/server and n-tier business applications. I am getting a handle on Python, and I have written a couple of faceless applications with it. Perhaps I just need a good not quite a dummy article, book or something. I have read Learning Python and make good use of python.org resources. Still, I haven't found joy with user experience tools yet. I would be most grateful for any links or suggestions. TIA, Mark Phillips ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] GUI design tools
On Wed, Mar 09, 2005 at 11:42:13AM -0800, Mark Phillips wrote: This may be a perennial subject. If this is an oft-repeated request, I sincerely apologize for wasting bandwidth. I have a database application I would like to build in Python. I use MacOS X as my primary machine, but historically I have supported old MacOS and Windows machines. This makes it hard for me to abandon the cross-platform mindset. I like tools that ease the creation and deployment of applications. The ideal solution for me would be a tool set that is similar to popular RAD tools such as 4D, Omnis Studio and the like. Using these have spoiled me rotten as a programmer, and I find myself balking at the installation requirements of the pythonic stuff I have looked at. That is, as I work through the steps I wonder how on earth an end user will deal with this. I have experience with OOP, OOAD and have about 16 years experience writing various stand-alone, client/server and n-tier business applications. I am getting a handle on Python, and I have written a couple of faceless applications with it. Perhaps I just need a good not quite a dummy article, book or something. I have read Learning Python and make good use of python.org resources. Still, I haven't found joy with user experience tools yet. I would be most grateful for any links or suggestions. It's not that mature on OS X yet, but I've been developing with Trolltech's Qt[1] framework using python for quite a while, and really like it, especially for its cross platform usage. Kevin Walzer has a binary installer for the libraries[2]. With PyQt i usually program a unit-tested backend with all the functionality, while creating a nice GUI in Qt's graphical Designer[3] tool. The files created in the Designer can be loaded runtime by a simple statement like: widget = QWidgetFactory.create(mainwindow.ui) Using Qt's signal/slot system (just a twist on the observer pattern), you can say which python-functions should respond to which buttons, or get triggered by which changes of textfields etc. You can achieve the same effect using GTK's python bindings with the glade designer and libglade for loading GUIs runtime, and I assume wxPython works the same way, but I have little experience with GTK and none with wxPython. Packaging tools[4] can go a long way at making the end user have an easy time of an install. Using py2app makes it easy to package the entire application and its dependencies into one easy to install application bundle, but you'd have to repeat the procedure on windows and other operating systems to create OS-specific packages there. That's one of the reasons it's often easier to create a slim python-only package that can be run on all operating systems, but then end up with alot of listed requirements which the end user would have to fulfill on his/her computer. As far as learning python goes, I prefer the interactive approach using the help/dir-functions to see what's available, supplemented by the official documentation[5]. I've also heard Dive into Python[6] recommended alot, but haven't read it myself. I guess the conclusion is that you can achieve the end result you're after for users, but it's more often done by using a set of applications/frameworks (eg. qtdesigner, your favourite editor and py2app) instead of a do-all IDE. Feel free to correct me if i misunderstood your request. [1] - http://www.trolltech.com/products/qt/index.html [2] - http://www.wordtech-software.com/pyqt-mac.html [3] - http://doc.trolltech.com/3.3/designer-manual-1.html [4] - http://www.wordtech-software.com/python-applet-tutorial.html [5] - http://www.python.org/doc/ [6] - http://diveintopython.org/ -- Truls A. Tangstad - [EMAIL PROTECTED] e r o c a m p.org ___ Pythonmac-SIG maillist - Pythonmac-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonmac-sig
