Re: [QGIS-Developer] Bug #21460?

[Cory Albrecht]

>  The best option is always come and collaborate with core team, in the
way that is most practical to you.

Well, that's why I came here because there's been no activity on that bug
for a month except my own comments. No requests for more information like
"please do X and tell me the output". I get that developer time to fix
things is not infinite (I am one myself), but good triage includes an
attempt to narrow down where in the code where the problem occurs to judge
the scope of the problem and comment to that effect so other developers
don't waste time duplicating the effort. But without any comments I don't
even seen an attempt to triage the issue.

On Tue, Apr 9, 2019 at 1:42 AM Paolo Cavallini 
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> On 09/04/19 01:19, Nyall Dawson wrote:
> > On Tue, 9 Apr 2019 at 09:03, Cory Albrecht  wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi Paolo,
> >>
> >> Might I suggest that you consider that not everybody has time to go an
> learn the codebase of QGIS to be able to know where to start for making
> changes themselves, even if they happen to know C++? Especially if they
> have to learn the Qt framework at the same time.
> >>
> >> That consideration might be better than a snarky reply to a polite
> inquiry. Just saying.
> >
> > I don't believe Paolo's reply was ever intended to be snarky. Instead,
> > he's just trying to inform you of how development occurs in
> > open-source projects like QGIS in order to empower you to be able to
> > get this bug fixed.
> sorry Cory, I did not mean to be impolite. I think the page cited
> depicts accurately the sheer reality behind bug fixing, and effectively
> answers your question.
> A Peter pointed out, thanks to our sponsors and donors we are able to
> fix many bugs before each release, but there cannot be a guarantee. The
> best option is always come and collaborate with core team, in the way
> that is most practical to you.
> Cheers.
> --
> Paolo Cavallini - www.faunalia.eu
> QGIS.ORG Chair:
> http://planet.qgis.org/planet/user/28/tag/qgis%20board/
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Re: [QGIS-Developer] Bug #21460?

[Patrick Dunford]

Thanks for that information. I was unaware there really is such a small 
community of developers.


I guess that Gis software is specialised enough that there is not 
general interest to attract the wider community support that some of the 
major open source projects produce, whether this is a larger development 
community or financial support from a sponsor.


I only use a small fraction of the capabilities of the software. 
Unfortunately it is not practicable at this time for me to contribute 
more than bug reports to the software. The fact that we even have this 
software in the open source community is greatly appreciated by me.


On 8/04/19 8:30 PM, Paolo Cavallini wrote:

Hi Cory,

On 08/04/19 00:57, Cory Albrecht wrote:

I was wondering when Bug #21460
 was going to get some attention?
It's about  QGIS not forming proper PostGIS SQL updates correctly,
specifically for null values.

may I suggest you an interesting read?
https://nyalldawson.net/2016/08/how-to-effectively-get-things-changed-in-qgis/
Cheers.

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Re: [QGIS-Developer] Bug #21460?

[Andrea Aime]

On Tue, Apr 9, 2019 at 7:00 PM Jonathan Moules 
wrote:

> Hi Andrea,
>
> As always, I agree with you, but one thing:
>
> > After all, the GPL license is really clear on the matter: "THE ENTIRE
> RISK AS TO THE QUALITY AND PERFORMANCE OF THE PROGRAM IS WITH YOU. SHOULD
> THE PROGRAM PROVE DEFECTIVE, YOU ASSUME THE COST OF ALL NECESSARY
> SERVICING, REPAIR OR CORRECTION"  Throwing one's frustration at the
> developers that shared code under the above conditions, while somehow
> understandable, really does not make sense and helps nobody.
>
> To be fair you get the exact same conditions if you throw six digit sums
> to the proprietary vendors too.
>
Yes indeed, completely agree.
I kind of see an unfortunate tendency to repetition in users, a sort of
"continuity" if you like:

   - "I pay for proprietary software, hence I'll pay for support and
   fixing" (and agree that getting a fix is really hard, towards "mission
   impossible" levels, with large vendors)
   - "I did not pay for open source software, hence I won't pay for support
   or bug fixing (let alone use my super-precious personal time to help the
   community in other ways)". And this is where I get mad :-D

Cheers
Andrea

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Re: [QGIS-Developer] Bug #21460?

[Jürgen E . Fischer]

Hi Richard,

On Tue, 09. Apr 2019 at 10:25:49 +0200, Richard Duivenvoorde wrote:
> predecessors uuid[] DEFAULT ARRAY[]::uuid[],
> And the "uuid[]" is not a very common type in the gis world.
> 
> If I'm correct '{""}' (what QGIS now uses for NULL values if the column
> has an array type) is a textual representation of an array with one
> string in it. Would it be better to do '{null}' or even '{}' instead?
> Can you try to create an update query with '{null}' and '{}' values in
> the empty array fields?
> And add these queriies to the bug report?

What I found looking into a fix for that that is that we also represent json as
map (the table also has json), like hstores.

And later produce hstores from maps - which is obviously isn't json.  That
could be changed by simply applying to_json on the produced hstore when
inserting or updating.

Doing that I got doubts about the current implementation as hstores apparently
can only be simple key/value maps and cannot - unlike json - be nested.

So nested json data might not currently read correctly either and we should
better be using text instead of a map for json or check whether if our support
for maps in the ui consideres nested or make it configurable how json is
handled.

But that's where I left off.


Jürgen


PS: That was after the initial gentle ping - if it started like the second
response, I might not have looked at it at all - although that effectively
doesn't make much difference.

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Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Rheinstraße 13  Fax. +49-4931-918175-50
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Re: [QGIS-Developer] Bug #21460?

[Alessandro Pasotti]

On Tue, Apr 9, 2019 at 11:16 AM Matthias Kuhn  wrote:

> Hi
>
>
> I wonder, what is the best way to answer a question like
>
> > I was wondering when issue x is getting some attention?
>
> Assuming
>  - that "issue x" is very important for a user who asks the question
>  - that "issue x" is one of 3000 open issues for a developer
>
> The best for the user would obviously be someone replying "Oh sorry, I
> missed that one. I'll have a look immediately".
> But in reality, unfortunately we all have limited time resources. So this
> just would not be true. To me informing people "how to get things done" is
> not the nicest answer to get, but it's a very honest one.
>
> With all best intentions
> Matthias
>


Hi  Matthias,

I cannot agree more, I think that we (developers) are in general very happy
if we can help anyone that has an issue with QGIS and we do everything we
can to help, but unfortunately the users are many, the issues are also many
and we definitely need to feed our families and our pets (that's basically
the same that not having enough time for unpaid work).

So, I also think that we are giving an honest answer.

I personally get a little bit upset when people push too much (basically
asking me to work for free to solve their problems), on the contrary I'm
usually very happy to help someone that is asking politely.

What it is important to stress is that hiring someone to fix an issue is
not the only way to get things done, for instance I am generally more happy
to help someone who I know as a very active member of the QGIS or
open-source community, because I know that there is a fair balance between
what this person gives and takes.

On the other end of the scale are some corporate users that I imagine are
saving a lot of money by using QGIS and give back just nothing.

Last but not least, as Régis pointed out, we have some funds for bug-fixing
before the releases, the donations from the sponsors and from the users
make this possible and these funds can act as multiplier for the
unpaid-volunteer bug-fixing work that inevitably continues after the
releases.

Let's just find the best way to communicate this to the users, Nyall's
posts looks good to me but I really like the idea of having translations
and culture-specific texts to better explain the concept.




> *09 April 2019 10:25 Richard Duivenvoorde 
>  wrote:*
>
> On 09/04/2019 03.41, Nyall Dawson wrote:
>
> > If you can suggest any ways to improve the wording of that post (while
> > keep the core message intact), please let me know.
>
>  On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 4:30 AM Paolo Cavallini wrote:
> >
> > may I suggest you an interesting read?
> >
> https://nyalldawson.net/2016/08/how-to-effectively-get-things-changed-in-qgis/
>
> I want to second Cory, to me it also feels a little rude to tell a
> 'user' (not a developer) to try to code or pay for a dev. And I'm a
> dutchie, known for their blunt talk :-)
>
> @Nyall: in my opinion your followup article:
>
> http://nyalldawson.net/2016/08/how-to-effectively-get-things-changed-in-qgis-a-follow-up/
> has a better 'tone' for non developers.
>
> We should probably mix your followup article with the first one and put
> it in the website (in the 'user' section) so it is translatable, so
> translators can maybe even add more 'cultural politness' to it if needed?
>
> WHO wants to do that (you can earn karma points if you do this !!)??
>
> We should also make clear that it IS OK to ask for the community to have
> a look at the an issue which makes your(!) live a hell. But also make it
> clear that to be fair your problems are not always the problems of
> somebody else. Same goes for commercial software by the way, only they
> are not as transparent as we are. And that we are humans with not enough
> time to solve all the problems in the world.
>
> STILL I'm not sure what the right tone is to tell people to read such a
> text though... people (me included!) will feel a little offended anywat
> when not helped but sent to a page to read what they should do...
>
> I think Geoserver does a good job:
>
>
> https://github.com/geoserver/geoserver/wiki/Successfully-requesting-and-integrating-new-features-and-improvements-in-GeoServer
> And Ian's talk: (though it can maybe be polished a little):
> https://www.ianturton.com/talks/foss4g.html#/how-to-earn-support
>
>
> @Cory: please stay on the good side :-)
>
> May I suggest to make your bug report even better by adding data and
> instructions so for an average developer, it is 10 minutes work to
> replicate your issue? Or should we just create the table and start
> editing? If so please add some steps. For example some googling revealed
> to me that I need: "CREATE EXTENSION IF NOT EXISTS "uuid-ossp";" to use
> the uuid_generate_v4() function you use?
>
> Also make sure it is actually a QGIS problem, looking into it, it is.
> But it is also a data-schema issue, as you define the problematic
> columns as:
> predecessors uuid[] DEFAULT 

[QGIS-Developer] Bug #21460?

[Matthias Kuhn]

Hi


I wonder, what is the best way to answer a question like

> I was wondering when issue x is getting some attention?

Assuming
 - that "issue x" is very important for a user who asks the question
 - that "issue x" is one of 3000 open issues for a developer

The best for the user would obviously be someone replying "Oh sorry, I
missed that one. I'll have a look immediately".
But in reality, unfortunately we all have limited time resources. So
this just would not be true. To me informing people "how to get things
done" is not the nicest answer to get, but it's a very honest one.

With all best intentions
Matthias

/09 April 2019 10:25 Richard Duivenvoorde  wrote:/

On 09/04/2019 03.41, Nyall Dawson wrote:

> If you can suggest any ways to improve the wording of that post (while
> keep the core message intact), please let me know.

 On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 4:30 AM Paolo Cavallini wrote:
>
> may I suggest you an interesting read?
>

https://nyalldawson.net/2016/08/how-to-effectively-get-things-changed-in-qgis/

I want to second Cory, to me it also feels a little rude to tell a
'user' (not a developer) to try to code or pay for a dev. And I'm a
dutchie, known for their blunt talk :-)

@Nyall: in my opinion your followup article:

http://nyalldawson.net/2016/08/how-to-effectively-get-things-changed-in-qgis-a-follow-up/
has a better 'tone' for non developers.

We should probably mix your followup article with the first one and put
it in the website (in the 'user' section) so it is translatable, so
translators can maybe even add more 'cultural politness' to it if
needed?

WHO wants to do that (you can earn karma points if you do this !!)??

We should also make clear that it IS OK to ask for the community to have
a look at the an issue which makes your(!) live a hell. But also make it
clear that to be fair your problems are not always the problems of
somebody else. Same goes for commercial software by the way, only they
are not as transparent as we are. And that we are humans with not enough
time to solve all the problems in the world.

STILL I'm not sure what the right tone is to tell people to read such a
text though... people (me included!) will feel a little offended anywat
when not helped but sent to a page to read what they should do...

I think Geoserver does a good job:


https://github.com/geoserver/geoserver/wiki/Successfully-requesting-and-integrating-new-features-and-improvements-in-GeoServer
And Ian's talk: (though it can maybe be polished a little):
https://www.ianturton.com/talks/foss4g.html#/how-to-earn-support


@Cory: please stay on the good side :-)

May I suggest to make your bug report even better by adding data and
instructions so for an average developer, it is 10 minutes work to
replicate your issue? Or should we just create the table and start
editing? If so please add some steps. For example some googling revealed
to me that I need: "CREATE EXTENSION IF NOT EXISTS "uuid-ossp";" to use
the uuid_generate_v4() function you use?

Also make sure it is actually a QGIS problem, looking into it, it is.
But it is also a data-schema issue, as you define the problematic
columns as:
predecessors uuid[] DEFAULT ARRAY[]::uuid[],
And the "uuid[]" is not a very common type in the gis world.

If I'm correct '{""}' (what QGIS now uses for NULL values if the column
has an array type) is a textual representation of an array with one
string in it. Would it be better to do '{null}' or even '{}' instead?
Can you try to create an update query with '{null}' and '{}' values in
the empty array fields?
And add these queriies to the bug report?

Regards,

Richard Duivenvoorde









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Re: [QGIS-Developer] Bug #21460?

[Paolo Cavallini]

Agreed, thanks Richard for the link, and Nyall for writing the article.

Il 9 aprile 2019 10:25:49 CEST, Richard Duivenvoorde  ha 
scritto:
>On 09/04/2019 03.41, Nyall Dawson wrote:
>
>> If you can suggest any ways to improve the wording of that post
>(while
>> keep the core message intact), please let me know.
>
> On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 4:30 AM Paolo Cavallini
> wrote:
>>
>> may I suggest you an interesting read?
>>
>https://nyalldawson.net/2016/08/how-to-effectively-get-things-changed-in-qgis/
>
>I want to second Cory, to me it also feels a little rude to tell a
>'user' (not a developer) to try to code or pay for a dev. And I'm a
>dutchie, known for their blunt talk :-)
>
>@Nyall: in my opinion your followup article:
>http://nyalldawson.net/2016/08/how-to-effectively-get-things-changed-in-qgis-a-follow-up/
>has a better 'tone' for non developers.
>
>We should probably mix your followup article with the first one and put
>it in the website (in the 'user' section) so it is translatable, so
>translators can maybe even add more 'cultural politness' to it if
>needed?
>
>WHO wants to do that (you can earn karma points if you do this !!)??
>
>We should also make clear that it IS OK to ask for the community to
>have
>a look at the an issue which makes your(!) live a hell. But also make
>it
>clear that to be fair your problems are not always the problems of
>somebody else. Same goes for commercial software by the way, only they
>are not as transparent as we are. And that we are humans with not
>enough
>time to solve all the problems in the world.
>
>STILL I'm not sure what the right tone is to tell people to read such a
>text though... people (me included!) will feel a little offended anywat
>when not helped but sent to a page to read what they should do...
>
>I think Geoserver does a good job:
>
>https://github.com/geoserver/geoserver/wiki/Successfully-requesting-and-integrating-new-features-and-improvements-in-GeoServer
>And Ian's talk: (though it can maybe be polished a little):
>https://www.ianturton.com/talks/foss4g.html#/how-to-earn-support
>
>
>@Cory: please stay on the good side :-)
>
>May I suggest to make your bug report even better by adding data and
>instructions so for an average developer, it is 10 minutes work to
>replicate your issue? Or should we just create the table and start
>editing? If so please add some steps. For example some googling
>revealed
>to me that I need: "CREATE EXTENSION IF NOT EXISTS "uuid-ossp";" to use
>the uuid_generate_v4() function you use?
>
>Also make sure it is actually a QGIS problem, looking into it, it is.
>But it is also a data-schema issue, as you define the problematic
>columns as:
>predecessors uuid[] DEFAULT ARRAY[]::uuid[],
>And the "uuid[]" is not a very common type in the gis world.
>
>If I'm correct '{""}' (what QGIS now uses for NULL values if the column
>has an array type) is a textual representation of an array with one
>string in it. Would it be better to do '{null}' or even '{}' instead?
>Can you try to create an update query with '{null}' and '{}' values in
>the empty array fields?
>And add these queriies to the bug report?
>
>Regards,
>
>Richard Duivenvoorde
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [QGIS-Developer] Bug #21460?

[DelazJ]

Hi,


Le mar. 9 avr. 2019 à 10:25, Richard Duivenvoorde  a
écrit :

> On 09/04/2019 03.41, Nyall Dawson wrote:
>
> > If you can suggest any ways to improve the wording of that post (while
> > keep the core message intact), please let me know.
>
>  On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 4:30 AM Paolo Cavallini 
> wrote:
> >
> > may I suggest you an interesting read?
> >
> https://nyalldawson.net/2016/08/how-to-effectively-get-things-changed-in-qgis/
>
> I want to second Cory, to me it also feels a little rude to tell a
> 'user' (not a developer) to try to code or pay for a dev. And I'm a
> dutchie, known for their blunt talk :-)
>
> @Nyall: in my opinion your followup article:
>
> http://nyalldawson.net/2016/08/how-to-effectively-get-things-changed-in-qgis-a-follow-up/
> has a better 'tone' for non developers.
>
> We should probably mix your followup article with the first one and put
> it in the website (in the 'user' section) so it is translatable, so
> translators can maybe even add more 'cultural politness' to it if needed?
>
> Just for information, I opened weeks ago an issue report for this:
https://github.com/qgis/QGIS-Website/issues/611

Harrissou


> WHO wants to do that (you can earn karma points if you do this !!)??
>
> We should also make clear that it IS OK to ask for the community to have
> a look at the an issue which makes your(!) live a hell. But also make it
> clear that to be fair your problems are not always the problems of
> somebody else. Same goes for commercial software by the way, only they
> are not as transparent as we are. And that we are humans with not enough
> time to solve all the problems in the world.
>
> STILL I'm not sure what the right tone is to tell people to read such a
> text though... people (me included!) will feel a little offended anywat
> when not helped but sent to a page to read what they should do...
>
> I think Geoserver does a good job:
>
>
> https://github.com/geoserver/geoserver/wiki/Successfully-requesting-and-integrating-new-features-and-improvements-in-GeoServer
> And Ian's talk: (though it can maybe be polished a little):
> https://www.ianturton.com/talks/foss4g.html#/how-to-earn-support
>
>
> @Cory: please stay on the good side :-)
>
> May I suggest to make your bug report even better by adding data and
> instructions so for an average developer, it is 10 minutes work to
> replicate your issue? Or should we just create the table and start
> editing? If so please add some steps. For example some googling revealed
> to me that I need: "CREATE EXTENSION IF NOT EXISTS "uuid-ossp";" to use
> the uuid_generate_v4() function you use?
>
> Also make sure it is actually a QGIS problem, looking into it, it is.
> But it is also a data-schema issue, as you define the problematic
> columns as:
> predecessors uuid[] DEFAULT ARRAY[]::uuid[],
> And the "uuid[]" is not a very common type in the gis world.
>
> If I'm correct '{""}' (what QGIS now uses for NULL values if the column
> has an array type) is a textual representation of an array with one
> string in it. Would it be better to do '{null}' or even '{}' instead?
> Can you try to create an update query with '{null}' and '{}' values in
> the empty array fields?
> And add these queriies to the bug report?
>
> Regards,
>
> Richard Duivenvoorde
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [QGIS-Developer] Bug #21460?

[Richard Duivenvoorde]

On 09/04/2019 03.41, Nyall Dawson wrote:

> If you can suggest any ways to improve the wording of that post (while
> keep the core message intact), please let me know.

 On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 4:30 AM Paolo Cavallini  
 wrote:
>
> may I suggest you an interesting read?
> https://nyalldawson.net/2016/08/how-to-effectively-get-things-changed-in-qgis/

I want to second Cory, to me it also feels a little rude to tell a
'user' (not a developer) to try to code or pay for a dev. And I'm a
dutchie, known for their blunt talk :-)

@Nyall: in my opinion your followup article:
http://nyalldawson.net/2016/08/how-to-effectively-get-things-changed-in-qgis-a-follow-up/
has a better 'tone' for non developers.

We should probably mix your followup article with the first one and put
it in the website (in the 'user' section) so it is translatable, so
translators can maybe even add more 'cultural politness' to it if needed?

WHO wants to do that (you can earn karma points if you do this !!)??

We should also make clear that it IS OK to ask for the community to have
a look at the an issue which makes your(!) live a hell. But also make it
clear that to be fair your problems are not always the problems of
somebody else. Same goes for commercial software by the way, only they
are not as transparent as we are. And that we are humans with not enough
time to solve all the problems in the world.

STILL I'm not sure what the right tone is to tell people to read such a
text though... people (me included!) will feel a little offended anywat
when not helped but sent to a page to read what they should do...

I think Geoserver does a good job:

https://github.com/geoserver/geoserver/wiki/Successfully-requesting-and-integrating-new-features-and-improvements-in-GeoServer
And Ian's talk: (though it can maybe be polished a little):
https://www.ianturton.com/talks/foss4g.html#/how-to-earn-support


@Cory: please stay on the good side :-)

May I suggest to make your bug report even better by adding data and
instructions so for an average developer, it is 10 minutes work to
replicate your issue? Or should we just create the table and start
editing? If so please add some steps. For example some googling revealed
to me that I need: "CREATE EXTENSION IF NOT EXISTS "uuid-ossp";" to use
the uuid_generate_v4() function you use?

Also make sure it is actually a QGIS problem, looking into it, it is.
But it is also a data-schema issue, as you define the problematic
columns as:
predecessors uuid[] DEFAULT ARRAY[]::uuid[],
And the "uuid[]" is not a very common type in the gis world.

If I'm correct '{""}' (what QGIS now uses for NULL values if the column
has an array type) is a textual representation of an array with one
string in it. Would it be better to do '{null}' or even '{}' instead?
Can you try to create an update query with '{null}' and '{}' values in
the empty array fields?
And add these queriies to the bug report?

Regards,

Richard Duivenvoorde









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Re: [QGIS-Developer] Bug #21460?

[Paolo Cavallini]

Hi all,

On 09/04/19 01:19, Nyall Dawson wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Apr 2019 at 09:03, Cory Albrecht  wrote:
>>
>> Hi Paolo,
>>
>> Might I suggest that you consider that not everybody has time to go an learn 
>> the codebase of QGIS to be able to know where to start for making changes 
>> themselves, even if they happen to know C++? Especially if they have to 
>> learn the Qt framework at the same time.
>>
>> That consideration might be better than a snarky reply to a polite inquiry. 
>> Just saying.
> 
> I don't believe Paolo's reply was ever intended to be snarky. Instead,
> he's just trying to inform you of how development occurs in
> open-source projects like QGIS in order to empower you to be able to
> get this bug fixed.
sorry Cory, I did not mean to be impolite. I think the page cited
depicts accurately the sheer reality behind bug fixing, and effectively
answers your question.
A Peter pointed out, thanks to our sponsors and donors we are able to
fix many bugs before each release, but there cannot be a guarantee. The
best option is always come and collaborate with core team, in the way
that is most practical to you.
Cheers.
-- 
Paolo Cavallini - www.faunalia.eu
QGIS.ORG Chair:
http://planet.qgis.org/planet/user/28/tag/qgis%20board/
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Re: [QGIS-Developer] Bug #21460?

[Peter Petrik]

Hi,

we have bug-fix period before each release which is funded by QGIS.org from
donations. So usually bugs that are critical/regression/crash/corrupt data
are fixed during that period for LTR and PR.

Cheers,
Peter

On Tue, Apr 9, 2019 at 3:41 AM Nyall Dawson  wrote:

> On Tue, 9 Apr 2019 at 10:52, Cory Albrecht  wrote:
> >
> > Hello Nyall,
> >
> > Oh, I am well familiar with the vicissitudes of getting work done in
> open source projects - It's why I have donated to many opensource projects
> over the decades that I have been using them, including QGIS. But just
> telling people "go fix it yourself" is not helpful. To be frank, it makes
> me wonder if I should have made that donation elsewhere rather than making
> me willing to contribute to the project by trying to fix a bug or two
> instead. How do I know that I wouldn't just get another snarky brush off
> were I to ask for help because my lack of familiarity with the QGIS
> codebase and the Qt framework?
>
> Hi Cory,
>
> The message of that blog post is definitely not intended to be that
> the answer is "go fix it yourself". It's that fixing it yourself is
> ONE option, and there's a number of other reliable avenues to follow
> too.
>
> If you can suggest any ways to improve the wording of that post (while
> keep the core message intact), please let me know.
>
> Nyall
>
>
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 7:19 PM Nyall Dawson 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Tue, 9 Apr 2019 at 09:03, Cory Albrecht 
> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Hi Paolo,
> >> >
> >> > Might I suggest that you consider that not everybody has time to go
> an learn the codebase of QGIS to be able to know where to start for making
> changes themselves, even if they happen to know C++? Especially if they
> have to learn the Qt framework at the same time.
> >> >
> >> > That consideration might be better than a snarky reply to a polite
> inquiry. Just saying.
> >>
> >> I don't believe Paolo's reply was ever intended to be snarky. Instead,
> >> he's just trying to inform you of how development occurs in
> >> open-source projects like QGIS in order to empower you to be able to
> >> get this bug fixed.
> >>
> >> Nyall
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> >
> >> > On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 4:30 AM Paolo Cavallini 
> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Hi Cory,
> >> >>
> >> >> On 08/04/19 00:57, Cory Albrecht wrote:
> >> >> > I was wondering when Bug #21460
> >> >> >  was going to get some
> attention?
> >> >> > It's about  QGIS not forming proper PostGIS SQL updates correctly,
> >> >> > specifically for null values.
> >> >>
> >> >> may I suggest you an interesting read?
> >> >>
> https://nyalldawson.net/2016/08/how-to-effectively-get-things-changed-in-qgis/
> >> >> Cheers.
> >> >> --
> >> >> Paolo Cavallini - www.faunalia.eu
> >> >> QGIS.ORG Chair:
> >> >> http://planet.qgis.org/planet/user/28/tag/qgis%20board/
> >> >> ___
> >> >> QGIS-Developer mailing list
> >> >> QGIS-Developer@lists.osgeo.org
> >> >> List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
> >> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
> >> >
> >> > ___
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> >> > QGIS-Developer@lists.osgeo.org
> >> > List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
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Re: [QGIS-Developer] Bug #21460?

[Nyall Dawson]

On Tue, 9 Apr 2019 at 10:52, Cory Albrecht  wrote:
>
> Hello Nyall,
>
> Oh, I am well familiar with the vicissitudes of getting work done in open 
> source projects - It's why I have donated to many opensource projects over 
> the decades that I have been using them, including QGIS. But just telling 
> people "go fix it yourself" is not helpful. To be frank, it makes me wonder 
> if I should have made that donation elsewhere rather than making me willing 
> to contribute to the project by trying to fix a bug or two instead. How do I 
> know that I wouldn't just get another snarky brush off were I to ask for help 
> because my lack of familiarity with the QGIS codebase and the Qt framework?

Hi Cory,

The message of that blog post is definitely not intended to be that
the answer is "go fix it yourself". It's that fixing it yourself is
ONE option, and there's a number of other reliable avenues to follow
too.

If you can suggest any ways to improve the wording of that post (while
keep the core message intact), please let me know.

Nyall


>
>
> On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 7:19 PM Nyall Dawson  wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 9 Apr 2019 at 09:03, Cory Albrecht  wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi Paolo,
>> >
>> > Might I suggest that you consider that not everybody has time to go an 
>> > learn the codebase of QGIS to be able to know where to start for making 
>> > changes themselves, even if they happen to know C++? Especially if they 
>> > have to learn the Qt framework at the same time.
>> >
>> > That consideration might be better than a snarky reply to a polite 
>> > inquiry. Just saying.
>>
>> I don't believe Paolo's reply was ever intended to be snarky. Instead,
>> he's just trying to inform you of how development occurs in
>> open-source projects like QGIS in order to empower you to be able to
>> get this bug fixed.
>>
>> Nyall
>>
>>
>>
>> >
>> > On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 4:30 AM Paolo Cavallini  
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hi Cory,
>> >>
>> >> On 08/04/19 00:57, Cory Albrecht wrote:
>> >> > I was wondering when Bug #21460
>> >> >  was going to get some attention?
>> >> > It's about  QGIS not forming proper PostGIS SQL updates correctly,
>> >> > specifically for null values.
>> >>
>> >> may I suggest you an interesting read?
>> >> https://nyalldawson.net/2016/08/how-to-effectively-get-things-changed-in-qgis/
>> >> Cheers.
>> >> --
>> >> Paolo Cavallini - www.faunalia.eu
>> >> QGIS.ORG Chair:
>> >> http://planet.qgis.org/planet/user/28/tag/qgis%20board/
>> >> ___
>> >> QGIS-Developer mailing list
>> >> QGIS-Developer@lists.osgeo.org
>> >> List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
>> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
>> >
>> > ___
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>> > QGIS-Developer@lists.osgeo.org
>> > List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
>> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
>
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Re: [QGIS-Developer] Bug #21460?

[Cory Albrecht]

Hello Nyall,

Oh, I am well familiar with the vicissitudes of getting work done in open
source projects - It's why I have donated to many opensource projects over
the decades that I have been using them, including QGIS. But just telling
people "go fix it yourself" is not helpful. To be frank, it makes me wonder
if I should have made that donation elsewhere rather than making me willing
to contribute to the project by trying to fix a bug or two instead. How do
I know that I wouldn't just get another snarky brush off were I to ask for
help because my lack of familiarity with the QGIS codebase and the Qt
framework?


On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 7:19 PM Nyall Dawson  wrote:

> On Tue, 9 Apr 2019 at 09:03, Cory Albrecht  wrote:
> >
> > Hi Paolo,
> >
> > Might I suggest that you consider that not everybody has time to go an
> learn the codebase of QGIS to be able to know where to start for making
> changes themselves, even if they happen to know C++? Especially if they
> have to learn the Qt framework at the same time.
> >
> > That consideration might be better than a snarky reply to a polite
> inquiry. Just saying.
>
> I don't believe Paolo's reply was ever intended to be snarky. Instead,
> he's just trying to inform you of how development occurs in
> open-source projects like QGIS in order to empower you to be able to
> get this bug fixed.
>
> Nyall
>
>
>
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 4:30 AM Paolo Cavallini 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi Cory,
> >>
> >> On 08/04/19 00:57, Cory Albrecht wrote:
> >> > I was wondering when Bug #21460
> >> >  was going to get some
> attention?
> >> > It's about  QGIS not forming proper PostGIS SQL updates correctly,
> >> > specifically for null values.
> >>
> >> may I suggest you an interesting read?
> >>
> https://nyalldawson.net/2016/08/how-to-effectively-get-things-changed-in-qgis/
> >> Cheers.
> >> --
> >> Paolo Cavallini - www.faunalia.eu
> >> QGIS.ORG Chair:
> >> http://planet.qgis.org/planet/user/28/tag/qgis%20board/
> >> ___
> >> QGIS-Developer mailing list
> >> QGIS-Developer@lists.osgeo.org
> >> List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
> >
> > ___
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> > QGIS-Developer@lists.osgeo.org
> > List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
>
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Re: [QGIS-Developer] Bug #21460?

[Nyall Dawson]

On Tue, 9 Apr 2019 at 09:03, Cory Albrecht  wrote:
>
> Hi Paolo,
>
> Might I suggest that you consider that not everybody has time to go an learn 
> the codebase of QGIS to be able to know where to start for making changes 
> themselves, even if they happen to know C++? Especially if they have to learn 
> the Qt framework at the same time.
>
> That consideration might be better than a snarky reply to a polite inquiry. 
> Just saying.

I don't believe Paolo's reply was ever intended to be snarky. Instead,
he's just trying to inform you of how development occurs in
open-source projects like QGIS in order to empower you to be able to
get this bug fixed.

Nyall



>
> On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 4:30 AM Paolo Cavallini  wrote:
>>
>> Hi Cory,
>>
>> On 08/04/19 00:57, Cory Albrecht wrote:
>> > I was wondering when Bug #21460
>> >  was going to get some attention?
>> > It's about  QGIS not forming proper PostGIS SQL updates correctly,
>> > specifically for null values.
>>
>> may I suggest you an interesting read?
>> https://nyalldawson.net/2016/08/how-to-effectively-get-things-changed-in-qgis/
>> Cheers.
>> --
>> Paolo Cavallini - www.faunalia.eu
>> QGIS.ORG Chair:
>> http://planet.qgis.org/planet/user/28/tag/qgis%20board/
>> ___
>> QGIS-Developer mailing list
>> QGIS-Developer@lists.osgeo.org
>> List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
>
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Re: [QGIS-Developer] Bug #21460?

[Cory Albrecht]

Hi Paolo,

Might I suggest that you consider that not everybody has time to go an
learn the codebase of QGIS to be able to know where to start for making
changes themselves, even if they happen to know C++? Especially if they
have to learn the Qt framework at the same time.

That consideration might be better than a snarky reply to a polite inquiry.
Just saying.

On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 4:30 AM Paolo Cavallini 
wrote:

> Hi Cory,
>
> On 08/04/19 00:57, Cory Albrecht wrote:
> > I was wondering when Bug #21460
> >  was going to get some attention?
> > It's about  QGIS not forming proper PostGIS SQL updates correctly,
> > specifically for null values.
>
> may I suggest you an interesting read?
>
> https://nyalldawson.net/2016/08/how-to-effectively-get-things-changed-in-qgis/
> Cheers.
> --
> Paolo Cavallini - www.faunalia.eu
> QGIS.ORG Chair:
> http://planet.qgis.org/planet/user/28/tag/qgis%20board/
> ___
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Re: [QGIS-Developer] Bug #21460? | is QGIS non-commercial?

[Nyall Dawson]

On Mon, 8 Apr 2019 at 19:22, Benjamin Ducke  wrote:
>
> Hi Paolo,
>
> On 08/04/2019 10:30, Paolo Cavallini wrote:
> > Hi Cory,
> >
> > On 08/04/19 00:57, Cory Albrecht wrote:
> >> I was wondering when Bug #21460
> >>  was going to get some attention?
> >> It's about  QGIS not forming proper PostGIS SQL updates correctly,
> >> specifically for null values.
> >
> > may I suggest you an interesting read?
> > https://nyalldawson.net/2016/08/how-to-effectively-get-things-changed-in-qgis/
>
> There is a (common) problem with that text
> and your reply that is increasingly giving
> my headaches when thinking how to advertise
> QGIS among colleagues:
>
> Quote (from the URL above):
>
> "unlike the commercial GIS offerings"
>
> This suggests that QGIS is a non-commercial
> project.
>
> But a few lines further down we read:
>
> "either organisations who offer commercial QGIS
> support"
>
> "if you hire a core QGIS developer to make your
> changes"

Thanks, fixed.

Nyall

>
> These are clearly commercial offerings/activities,
> and people are being advised to make use of them.
>
> To be clear: I don't think there is anything wrong
> with that. But I think that it is misleading to
> present QGIS as "non-commercial". It is open
> source and non-proprietary, in the sense that no
> single individual or institution owns the rights
> to it. But commerce is clearly part of QGIS now.
>
> As I see it, there are two "honest" options:
>
> (1) Stop calling QGIS non-commercial and keep
> advising people to hire developers for fixing
> bugs and implementing features.
>
> (2) Keep calling QGIS a non-commercial project
> and stop advising people to hire developers
> to fix bugs or develop features for them.
>
> Best,
>
> Ben
>
>
> > Cheers.
> >
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Re: [QGIS-Developer] Bug #21460? | is QGIS non-commercial?

[Benjamin Ducke]

Hi Paolo,

On 08/04/2019 10:30, Paolo Cavallini wrote:
> Hi Cory,
> 
> On 08/04/19 00:57, Cory Albrecht wrote:
>> I was wondering when Bug #21460
>>  was going to get some attention?
>> It's about  QGIS not forming proper PostGIS SQL updates correctly,
>> specifically for null values.
> 
> may I suggest you an interesting read?
> https://nyalldawson.net/2016/08/how-to-effectively-get-things-changed-in-qgis/

There is a (common) problem with that text
and your reply that is increasingly giving
my headaches when thinking how to advertise
QGIS among colleagues:

Quote (from the URL above):

"unlike the commercial GIS offerings"

This suggests that QGIS is a non-commercial
project.

But a few lines further down we read:

"either organisations who offer commercial QGIS
support"

"if you hire a core QGIS developer to make your
changes"

These are clearly commercial offerings/activities,
and people are being advised to make use of them.

To be clear: I don't think there is anything wrong
with that. But I think that it is misleading to
present QGIS as "non-commercial". It is open
source and non-proprietary, in the sense that no
single individual or institution owns the rights
to it. But commerce is clearly part of QGIS now.

As I see it, there are two "honest" options:

(1) Stop calling QGIS non-commercial and keep
advising people to hire developers for fixing
bugs and implementing features.

(2) Keep calling QGIS a non-commercial project
and stop advising people to hire developers
to fix bugs or develop features for them.

Best,

Ben


> Cheers.
> 
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Re: [QGIS-Developer] Bug #21460?

[Paolo Cavallini]

Hi Cory,

On 08/04/19 00:57, Cory Albrecht wrote:
> I was wondering when Bug #21460
>  was going to get some attention?
> It's about  QGIS not forming proper PostGIS SQL updates correctly,
> specifically for null values.

may I suggest you an interesting read?
https://nyalldawson.net/2016/08/how-to-effectively-get-things-changed-in-qgis/
Cheers.
-- 
Paolo Cavallini - www.faunalia.eu
QGIS.ORG Chair:
http://planet.qgis.org/planet/user/28/tag/qgis%20board/
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[QGIS-Developer] Bug #21460?

[Cory Albrecht]

I was wondering when Bug #21460  was
going to get some attention? It's about  QGIS not forming proper PostGIS
SQL updates correctly, specifically for null values.

Thanks in advance.
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