Re: [Qgis-user] QGIS and geopackages in sharepoint environement

[Wolfgang Meinolf via Qgis-user]

Hi,
we use Sharepoint extensively. Here my 2 comments:


  1.  Even when a Project is entirely on Sharepoint with all i.e. GPKG, you can 
work with it without restrictions (except speed)
  2.  Due to the filesize of some ressources as for example Geopackages you run 
risk, that Sharepoint files get out of sync. Specifically when Team works on 
the project.

Therefore my recommendation: Move project to local drive, work with it and, 
when finished, move back to sharepoint dir.

Cheers
Wolfgang

Von: Qgis-user  Im Auftrag von John Layt via 
Qgis-user
Gesendet: Montag, 8. August 2022 11:03
An: Sebastian Gutwein 
Cc: qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org
Betreff: Re: [Qgis-user] QGIS and geopackages in sharepoint environement

Hi,

We use Google Drive on Macs for shapefile and GeoPackages. The first thing we 
always tell our users is to set the files to Available Offline, so all 
reads/writes are local before being synced up to the cloud. That reduces 
issues, but all the obvious ones around file corruption and overwriting still 
apply. As mentioned, GDAL/QGIS did use to always write the lockfile inside 
whenever anyone opened a geopackage, which would cause the file to sync back to 
the cloud and flood your bandwidth, which is a real pain. That has changed, but 
it doesn't solve the multiple-users overwriting issue though. My long-term 
solution was going to be building a proper geospatial infrastructure with 
MerginMaps and PostGIS so people 'check-out' the geopackages they needed, then 
merged them back in. Sadly we've just been sold to an ESRI-using company, so 
that will never happen, however they do use Sharepoint so maybe I'll find out 
if that's any better than Drive in my near future.

Cheers!

John.



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Re: [Qgis-user] QGIS and geopackages in sharepoint environement

[John Layt via Qgis-user]

Hi,

We use Google Drive on Macs for shapefile and GeoPackages. The first thing
we always tell our users is to set the files to Available Offline, so all
reads/writes are local before being synced up to the cloud. That reduces
issues, but all the obvious ones around file corruption and overwriting
still apply. As mentioned, GDAL/QGIS did use to always write the lockfile
inside whenever anyone opened a geopackage, which would cause the file to
sync back to the cloud and flood your bandwidth, which is a real pain. That
has changed, but it doesn't solve the multiple-users overwriting issue
though. My long-term solution was going to be building a proper geospatial
infrastructure with MerginMaps and PostGIS so people 'check-out' the
geopackages they needed, then merged them back in. Sadly we've just been
sold to an ESRI-using company, so that will never happen, however they do
use Sharepoint so maybe I'll find out if that's any better than Drive in my
near future.

Cheers!

John.
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Re: [Qgis-user] QGIS and geopackages in sharepoint environement

[Sebastian Gutwein via Qgis-user]

I should clarify we are using Google Drive for Desktop on Windows and Mac
machines.

On Fri, Aug 5, 2022 at 5:32 PM chris hermansen 
wrote:

> Oops I spoke to soon, please see below...
>
> On Fri, Aug 5, 2022 at 2:27 PM chris hermansen 
> wrote:
>
>> Sebastian and list,
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 5, 2022 at 2:19 PM Sebastian Gutwein  wrote:
>>
>>> Although it is not recommended we use google drive and as of the latest
>>> release it works ok for most files including Geopackage. In past versions
>>> any time a layer on a geopackage was opened this would cause the file to be
>>> marked as changed and upload the whole file. In the current version (3.26)
>>> this only happens when edit mode is turned on. However saving after edits
>>> is much slower when it is in the Google drive. It appears that the .wal
>>> file decides to load the entire file into itself when in the google drive
>>> before writing the change to the file.  Of course this doesn't prevent
>>> people from overwriting each other's changes if two people are concurrently
>>> editing on different machines.
>>> The file path doesn't seem to be a problem if the files are in the same
>>> location relative to the project file on different machines.
>>> I would be interested if at some point someone created a solution that
>>> allowed for diffs on geopackages using Lutra's
>>> https://github.com/MerginMaps/geodiff . I imagine if that worked there
>>> would be an cloud unsynced local version and a cloud synced local version
>>> that you could trigger a diff operation against.
>>>
>>
>> The problem with Google Drive is actually a problem with Google Drive for
>> Desktop, which is a "file streaming application" and not with the other
>> approach which is synchronization, similar to Dropbox.  In the
>> synchronization approach your changed files on your computer are backed up
>> to the cloud Google Drive.
>>
>> Google Drive for Desktop is a plugin for Windows Navigator that makes
>> files in Google Drive appear as though they are on your computer in the G:
>> drive (or wherever else you might set it up).  If you double-click on one
>> of those files, say foo.docx, then that file will open in Word.  But if you
>> use QGIS to add a layer, the file names that appear in the  "Open OGR
>> Vector Layer" window (for example) don't look like what you might expect.
>>
>> *Note I just tried this on Ubuntu 22.04 with QGIS 3.26.1 and WHOOPS it
>> looks to be working here, so maybe it's not an issue in Windows any longer
>> either.*
>>
>>>
>> I was wrong there.
>
> Things look good until I picked a .shp file to show; the file name that
> came up was a great long thing with lots of x's and y's and what not and
> QGIS would not open it.
>
> Anyway this is Ubuntu not Windows so YMMV.
>
>
> --
> Chris Hermansen · clhermansen "at" gmail "dot" com
>
> C'est ma façon de parler.
>


-- 
___
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*rhymes with Josh

Regenerative Design Group
1 Chevalier Ave
Greenfield, Ma 01301
Web: regenerativedesigngroup.com
(631) 241-1018

*Look close, think big, make change. *
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Re: [Qgis-user] QGIS and geopackages in sharepoint environement

[chris hermansen via Qgis-user]

Oops I spoke to soon, please see below...

On Fri, Aug 5, 2022 at 2:27 PM chris hermansen 
wrote:

> Sebastian and list,
>
> On Fri, Aug 5, 2022 at 2:19 PM Sebastian Gutwein  wrote:
>
>> Although it is not recommended we use google drive and as of the latest
>> release it works ok for most files including Geopackage. In past versions
>> any time a layer on a geopackage was opened this would cause the file to be
>> marked as changed and upload the whole file. In the current version (3.26)
>> this only happens when edit mode is turned on. However saving after edits
>> is much slower when it is in the Google drive. It appears that the .wal
>> file decides to load the entire file into itself when in the google drive
>> before writing the change to the file.  Of course this doesn't prevent
>> people from overwriting each other's changes if two people are concurrently
>> editing on different machines.
>> The file path doesn't seem to be a problem if the files are in the same
>> location relative to the project file on different machines.
>> I would be interested if at some point someone created a solution that
>> allowed for diffs on geopackages using Lutra's
>> https://github.com/MerginMaps/geodiff . I imagine if that worked there
>> would be an cloud unsynced local version and a cloud synced local version
>> that you could trigger a diff operation against.
>>
>
> The problem with Google Drive is actually a problem with Google Drive for
> Desktop, which is a "file streaming application" and not with the other
> approach which is synchronization, similar to Dropbox.  In the
> synchronization approach your changed files on your computer are backed up
> to the cloud Google Drive.
>
> Google Drive for Desktop is a plugin for Windows Navigator that makes
> files in Google Drive appear as though they are on your computer in the G:
> drive (or wherever else you might set it up).  If you double-click on one
> of those files, say foo.docx, then that file will open in Word.  But if you
> use QGIS to add a layer, the file names that appear in the  "Open OGR
> Vector Layer" window (for example) don't look like what you might expect.
>
> *Note I just tried this on Ubuntu 22.04 with QGIS 3.26.1 and WHOOPS it
> looks to be working here, so maybe it's not an issue in Windows any longer
> either.*
>
>>
> I was wrong there.

Things look good until I picked a .shp file to show; the file name that
came up was a great long thing with lots of x's and y's and what not and
QGIS would not open it.

Anyway this is Ubuntu not Windows so YMMV.


-- 
Chris Hermansen · clhermansen "at" gmail "dot" com

C'est ma façon de parler.
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Re: [Qgis-user] QGIS and geopackages in sharepoint environement

[chris hermansen via Qgis-user]

Sebastian and list,

On Fri, Aug 5, 2022 at 2:19 PM Sebastian Gutwein  wrote:

> Although it is not recommended we use google drive and as of the latest
> release it works ok for most files including Geopackage. In past versions
> any time a layer on a geopackage was opened this would cause the file to be
> marked as changed and upload the whole file. In the current version (3.26)
> this only happens when edit mode is turned on. However saving after edits
> is much slower when it is in the Google drive. It appears that the .wal
> file decides to load the entire file into itself when in the google drive
> before writing the change to the file.  Of course this doesn't prevent
> people from overwriting each other's changes if two people are concurrently
> editing on different machines.
> The file path doesn't seem to be a problem if the files are in the same
> location relative to the project file on different machines.
> I would be interested if at some point someone created a solution that
> allowed for diffs on geopackages using Lutra's
> https://github.com/MerginMaps/geodiff . I imagine if that worked there
> would be an cloud unsynced local version and a cloud synced local version
> that you could trigger a diff operation against.
>

The problem with Google Drive is actually a problem with Google Drive for
Desktop, which is a "file streaming application" and not with the other
approach which is synchronization, similar to Dropbox.  In the
synchronization approach your changed files on your computer are backed up
to the cloud Google Drive.

Google Drive for Desktop is a plugin for Windows Navigator that makes files
in Google Drive appear as though they are on your computer in the G: drive
(or wherever else you might set it up).  If you double-click on one of
those files, say foo.docx, then that file will open in Word.  But if you
use QGIS to add a layer, the file names that appear in the  "Open OGR
Vector Layer" window (for example) don't look like what you might expect.

*Note I just tried this on Ubuntu 22.04 with QGIS 3.26.1 and WHOOPS it
looks to be working here, so maybe it's not an issue in Windows any longer
either.*

>

-- 
Chris Hermansen · clhermansen "at" gmail "dot" com

C'est ma façon de parler.
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Re: [Qgis-user] QGIS and geopackages in sharepoint environement

[Sebastian Gutwein via Qgis-user]

Although it is not recommended we use google drive and as of the latest
release it works ok for most files including Geopackage. In past versions
any time a layer on a geopackage was opened this would cause the file to be
marked as changed and upload the whole file. In the current version (3.26)
this only happens when edit mode is turned on. However saving after edits
is much slower when it is in the Google drive. It appears that the .wal
file decides to load the entire file into itself when in the google drive
before writing the change to the file.  Of course this doesn't prevent
people from overwriting each other's changes if two people are concurrently
editing on different machines.
The file path doesn't seem to be a problem if the files are in the same
location relative to the project file on different machines.
I would be interested if at some point someone created a solution that
allowed for diffs on geopackages using Lutra's
https://github.com/MerginMaps/geodiff . I imagine if that worked there
would be an cloud unsynced local version and a cloud synced local version
that you could trigger a diff operation against.

On Fri, Aug 5, 2022 at 3:28 PM Gert-Jan van der Weijden (GISNederland) via
Qgis-user  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> My employer is moving from "traditional" network shares to a 100%
> Sharepoint/MS Teams solution.
>
> The idea behind Sharepoint (and OneDrive) is that the content (files) is
> synchronised between server and local PC's.
> 1. For large files this means a lot of network traffic on each single
> edit.
>
> 2. The path to a dataset (geopackage, shapefile, geotiff) to be used in a
> QGis project (.qgz) is the local path b(c:\users\*joe*\data\etc).
> However, when Joe's college Jane opens this QGis project the next day, the
> data is synchronized to her local path (c:\users\jane\data\etc.), but the
> QGis project file (.qgz) is still pointing to c:\users\joe, which doesn't
> exist on Jane's laptop)
> Solutions?
> a. Microsoft used to advertise a way to make drive mappings to Sharepoint
> sites. That solution was based upon an Internet Explorer library, and is no
> longer supported. I tried to use it; it's clumsy and unreliable.
>
> https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/office/map-a-network-drive-to-a-sharepoint-library-751148de-f579-42f9-bc8c-fcd80ccf0f53
>
> b. 3rd party solutions like ZeeDrive (
> https://www.thinkscape.com/Map-Network-Drives-To-Office-365-OneDrive/)
> and CloudDriveMapper (https://www.iamcloud.com/cloud-drive-mapper/).
> I haven't tried these solutions yet, bu will do so somewhere this month.
>
> By the way, also on the "commercial side of Planet GIS" (Esri's ArcGIS)
> there's no solution for this problem (yet):
> https://support.esri.com/en/technical-article/25605
>
> The problems as described on that Esri support page are prette much the
> same as in QGis+Sharepoint.
> The so-called "solution or workaround" is hardly to be taken seriously by
> a professional GIS user
>
>
> Apart from the Sharepoint-problems as described above, Geopackages are not
> designed for a multi-user environment.
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Gert-Jan
>
>
>
> On 5-8-2022 19:49, chris hermansen via Qgis-user wrote:
>
> Guido and list,
>
> On Fri, Aug 5, 2022 at 6:35 AM Guido Häfliger via Qgis-user <
> qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org> wrote:
>
>> Hello
>>
>>
>>
>> We are discussing in our company to switch from local fileserver/NAS to
>> Sharepoint (hosted in cloud). Will QGIS-projects and geopackages work on
>> sharepoint environment or do we have to expect a lot of troubles? Have
>> anybody experience with QGIS and geopackages on sharepoint? Will we
>> encounter problems if geopackages are opened by several users?
>>
>>
> I can't speak to the use of QGIS with Sharepoint, but we've tried using
> both QGIS and ESRI products with Google Drive for Desktop and the name
> remapping done by GDD in Windows Explorer is not picked up by the file
> manager component used by them; so the file names do not appear as expected.
>
> I've run across the same thing with QGIS and the Google Drive - Nautilus
> connection in GNOME / Linux and not found a solution.
>
> I suggest you try before you buy.
>
>
> --
> Chris Hermansen · clhermansen "at" gmail "dot" com
>
> C'est ma façon de parler.
>
> ___
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-- 
___
Sebastian "Bas* " Gutwein
*rhymes with Josh

Regenerative Design Group
1 Chevalier Ave
Greenfield, Ma 01301
Web: regenerativedesigngroup.com
(631) 241-1018

*Look close, think big, make change. *
___

Re: [Qgis-user] QGIS and geopackages in sharepoint environement

[Gert-Jan van der Weijden (GISNederland) via Qgis-user]

Hi,

My employer is moving from "traditional" network shares to a 100% 
Sharepoint/MS Teams solution.


The idea behind Sharepoint (and OneDrive) is that the content (files) is 
synchronised between server and local PC's.

1. For large files this means a lot of network traffic on each single edit.

2. The path to a dataset (geopackage, shapefile, geotiff) to be used in 
a QGis project (.qgz) is the local path b(c:\users\*joe*\data\etc). 
However, when Joe's college Jane opens this QGis project the next day, 
the data is synchronized to her local path (c:\users\jane\data\etc.), 
but the QGis project file (.qgz) is still pointing to c:\users\joe, 
which doesn't exist on Jane's laptop)


Solutions?
a. Microsoft used to advertise a way to make drive mappings to 
Sharepoint sites. That solution was based upon an Internet Explorer 
library, and is no longer supported. I tried to use it; it's clumsy and 
unreliable.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/office/map-a-network-drive-to-a-sharepoint-library-751148de-f579-42f9-bc8c-fcd80ccf0f53

b. 3rd party solutions like ZeeDrive 
(https://www.thinkscape.com/Map-Network-Drives-To-Office-365-OneDrive/) 
and CloudDriveMapper (https://www.iamcloud.com/cloud-drive-mapper/).


I haven't tried these solutions yet, bu will do so somewhere this month.

By the way, also on the "commercial side of Planet GIS" (Esri's ArcGIS) 
there's no solution for this problem (yet):

https://support.esri.com/en/technical-article/25605

The problems as described on that Esri support page are prette much the 
same as in QGis+Sharepoint.
The so-called "solution or workaround" is hardly to be taken seriously 
by a professional GIS user



Apart from the Sharepoint-problems as described above, Geopackages are 
not designed for a multi-user environment.



Kind regards,

Gert-Jan



On 5-8-2022 19:49, chris hermansen via Qgis-user wrote:

Guido and list,

On Fri, Aug 5, 2022 at 6:35 AM Guido Häfliger via Qgis-user 
 wrote:


Hello

We are discussing in our company to switch from local
fileserver/NAS to Sharepoint (hosted in cloud). Will QGIS-projects
and geopackages work on sharepoint environment or do we have to
expect a lot of troubles? Have anybody experience with QGIS and
geopackages on sharepoint? Will we encounter problems if
geopackages are opened by several users?



I can't speak to the use of QGIS with Sharepoint, but we've tried 
using both QGIS and ESRI products with Google Drive for Desktop and 
the name remapping done by GDD in Windows Explorer is not picked up by 
the file manager component used by them; so the file names do not 
appear as expected.


I've run across the same thing with QGIS and the Google Drive - 
Nautilus connection in GNOME / Linux and not found a solution.


I suggest you try before you buy.


--
Chris Hermansen · clhermansen "at" gmail "dot" com

C'est ma façon de parler.

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Re: [Qgis-user] QGIS and geopackages in sharepoint environement

[chris hermansen via Qgis-user]

Guido and list,

On Fri, Aug 5, 2022 at 6:35 AM Guido Häfliger via Qgis-user <
qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org> wrote:

> Hello
>
>
>
> We are discussing in our company to switch from local fileserver/NAS to
> Sharepoint (hosted in cloud). Will QGIS-projects and geopackages work on
> sharepoint environment or do we have to expect a lot of troubles? Have
> anybody experience with QGIS and geopackages on sharepoint? Will we
> encounter problems if geopackages are opened by several users?
>
>
I can't speak to the use of QGIS with Sharepoint, but we've tried using
both QGIS and ESRI products with Google Drive for Desktop and the name
remapping done by GDD in Windows Explorer is not picked up by the file
manager component used by them; so the file names do not appear as expected.

I've run across the same thing with QGIS and the Google Drive - Nautilus
connection in GNOME / Linux and not found a solution.

I suggest you try before you buy.


-- 
Chris Hermansen · clhermansen "at" gmail "dot" com

C'est ma façon de parler.
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Re: [Qgis-user] QGIS and geopackages in sharepoint environement

[Ludwig Kniprath via Qgis-user]

Hi,

my personal experience with file based data storage in my very private 
cloud (something like sharepoint) was, that just opening a Qgis project 
with gpg layers causes many uploads, because each access (open, read, 
write... ) changes these files. In a multi-user environment this would 
certainly be much more complicated. So I would recommend a cloud-based 
database solution, perhaps google "postgis cloud hosting"?


Ludwig

Am 05.08.22 um 15:34 schrieb Guido Häfliger via Qgis-user:


Hello

We are discussing in our company to switch from local fileserver/NAS 
to Sharepoint (hosted in cloud). Will QGIS-projects and geopackages 
work on sharepoint environment or do we have to expect a lot of 
troubles? Have anybody experience with QGIS and geopackages on 
sharepoint? Will we encounter problems if geopackages are opened by 
several users?


Thanks for your advices in advance

Guido




Dipl. Ing. ETH Guido Häfliger
EDV/GIS-Spezialist
Tel. ++41 41 462 97 60
_guido.haefli...@vogelwarte.ch _
_www.vogelwarte.ch _

Schweizerische Vogelwarte | Seerose 1 | CH-6204 Sempach | Schweiz

Station ornithologique suisse | Seerose 1 | CH-6204 Sempach | Suisse
Stazione ornitologica svizzera | Seerose 1 | CH-6204 Sempach | Svizzera
Swiss Ornithological Institute | Seerose 1 | CH-6204 Sempach | 
Switzerland



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Re: [Qgis-user] QGIS and geopackages in sharepoint environement

[jhubbslist--- via Qgis-user]

Your biggest and most immediate pain will come from your greatly 
diminished bandwidth and increased latency; you're talking about going 
from as fast as Ethernet wire speed to whatever your up/down Internet 
rates are best-case. But even beyond that, it's a pretty tall business 
risk to accept; you'd be deciding to depend on Microsoft giving you 
their continued permission to operate on top of depending on every link 
in Internet connectivity between you and wherever. And y'all don't @ me 
about "But everybody is doing it;" there's no consolation in being dead 
in the water along with thousands or millions of other companies.


I don't know how sensitive your operations are but consider that 
whatever your data is, you'd be disclosing it to Microsoft. Are they 
going to be paying you for that access? Do you have any recourse against 
them if they make use of that access? I've been in an environment before 
where people who'd signed NDAs to obtain data from businesses turned 
right around and put that data on AWS, thereby disclosing sensitive data 
to Amazon.


Even on your fileserver aren't you running into issues with multiple 
people accessing and potentially changing the same files? If so, you 
might want to start looking into institutionalizing a PostGIS operation 
in-house so you can manage data more effectively.




On 8/5/22 9:34 AM, Guido Häfliger via Qgis-user wrote:


Hello

We are discussing in our company to switch from local fileserver/NAS 
to Sharepoint (hosted in cloud). Will QGIS-projects and geopackages 
work on sharepoint environment or do we have to expect a lot of 
troubles? Have anybody experience with QGIS and geopackages on 
sharepoint? Will we encounter problems if geopackages are opened by 
several users?


Thanks for your advices in advance

Guido




Dipl. Ing. ETH Guido Häfliger
EDV/GIS-Spezialist
Tel. ++41 41 462 97 60
_guido.haefli...@vogelwarte.ch _
_www.vogelwarte.ch _

Schweizerische Vogelwarte | Seerose 1 | CH-6204 Sempach | Schweiz

Station ornithologique suisse | Seerose 1 | CH-6204 Sempach | Suisse
Stazione ornitologica svizzera | Seerose 1 | CH-6204 Sempach | Svizzera
Swiss Ornithological Institute | Seerose 1 | CH-6204 Sempach | 
Switzerland



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Re: [Qgis-user] QGIS and geopackages in sharepoint environement

[Greg Troxel via Qgis-user]

Guido Häfliger via Qgis-user  writes:

> We are discussing in our company to switch from local fileserver/NAS
> to Sharepoint (hosted in cloud). Will QGIS-projects and geopackages
> work on sharepoint environment or do we have to expect a lot of
> troubles? Have anybody experience with QGIS and geopackages on
> sharepoint? Will we encounter problems if geopackages are opened by
> several users?

I don't know actually but I am immediately afraid.

I am guessing you are using windows.

Questions to ask:

  What fs protocol and locking protocol are you using on the NAS?

  What are you doing about geopackages and locking now?  geopackages are
  write-happy for no good reason, maybe not in the most recent code.

  what fs protocol and locking protocol will sharepoint use?

  how will systems that are not windows access sharepoint files?  mac?
  linux? FreeBSD or NetBSD?

  Can they set up a trial instance that you can check this on?

  Are you thinking about nextcloud?
  


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[Qgis-user] QGIS and geopackages in sharepoint environement

[Guido Häfliger via Qgis-user]

Hello

We are discussing in our company to switch from local fileserver/NAS to 
Sharepoint (hosted in cloud). Will QGIS-projects and geopackages work on 
sharepoint environment or do we have to expect a lot of troubles? Have anybody 
experience with QGIS and geopackages on sharepoint? Will we encounter problems 
if geopackages are opened by several users?

Thanks for your advices in advance
Guido



Dipl. Ing. ETH Guido Häfliger
EDV/GIS-Spezialist
Tel. ++41 41 462 97 60
guido.haefli...@vogelwarte.ch
www.vogelwarte.ch

Schweizerische Vogelwarte | Seerose 1 | CH-6204 Sempach | Schweiz
Station ornithologique suisse | Seerose 1 | CH-6204 Sempach | Suisse
Stazione ornitologica svizzera | Seerose 1 | CH-6204 Sempach | Svizzera
Swiss Ornithological Institute | Seerose 1 | CH-6204 Sempach | Switzerland

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