Re: [Ql-Users] Making an image of an ED Disk Drive
On 09/10/2011 19:38, Norman Dunbar wrote: Evening Rich, OK, so that appears to give an updated program: I think that will indeed work. By the way, my Wiki has full (I hope) details of the QL5A and QL5B Floppy format on this URL http://qdosmsq.dunbar-it.co.uk/doku.php?id=qdosmsq:fs:dsdd Might be useful? Ok, I admit, the ED stuff is currently missing in action, but should arrive soon. Cheers, Norm. I haven't managed to get the ED disk image working with the HxC floppy emulator unfortunately at the moment - it is almost as though the QL cannot detect the ED disk... Any ideas how this works? -- Rich Mellor RWAP Services Specialist Enuuk Auction Programming Services www.rwapservices.co.uk ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Making an image of an ED Disk Drive
Op Sat, 08 Oct 2011 12:15:34 +0200 schreef Rich Mellor r...@rwapservices.co.uk: I am trying desparately to get the ED disk drive image working with the HxC floppy disk drive emulator. The ED disk drive parameters are 80 tracks 2 sides 10 sectors per track sector is 2048 bytes My BASIC code to create a copy of a disk appears below: 100 OPEN_IN #3,'flp2_*D4e' 105 OPEN_NEW #4,ram1_ED_img 107 FOR tracks=0 TO 79 108 FOR sides=0 TO 1 109 FOR sector=1 TO 10 110 GET #3\sector+sides*256+tracks*2^16,sector$ 112 AT 0,0 115 PRINT tracks,sides,sector;' ' 120 PRINT #4;sector$; 122 END FOR sector 125 END FOR sides 127 END FOR tracks 130 CLOSE Do I have this working the right way around (or should the sides loop be outside the tracks loop?) This does create an image of the correct size, but I can't get the QL to read it once converted. To convert it to the HxC format, I have tried a bitrate of 50 (same as a HD disk drive, although this may be wrong), and an RPM of 300 (although I am told it may need to be 150) Interleave is also set at 1 Any other suggestions on where I might be going wrong? DM5 confirms: 80 tracks, 10 sectors/track, 2 sides (20 sectors/cylinder, not 36 sectors) This program is probably fine if you copy them back to a disk in the same way. The HxC is however not a double sided drive so you may need to get the sectors in the right order for the ED-driver to recognise it. The DP Media Manager SE manual states that files are written in blocks of 3 sectors (chapter 5). Although this was written for DD disks it may still be useful for HD/ED. These blocks are written as follows: (track/side/sector) 0/0/0, 0/0/3, 0/0/6, 0/1/0, 0/1/3, 0/1/6 0/0/1, 0/0/4, 0/0/7, 0/1/1, 0/1/4, 0/1/7 0/0/2, 0/0/5, 0/0/8, 0/1/2, 0/1/5, 0/1/8 ... So 6 blocks, 18 sectors, one cylinder, filling track 0. Then for track 1 to n it gets more complicated, an offset is used to find the next sector. (entry + (track * offset)) MOD sectors_per_track (Now it gets confusing, MMSE states the offset =5, DM5 reports 320! And I don't get how this works.) Some speculation. As you can see sides are used in turn, as ED uses 1 sector/block this could mean: 0/0/0, 0/1/0, 0/0/1, 0/1/1, ... 20 blocks, filling 20 sectors. (or 0/0/0, 0/1/0, 0/0/2, 0/1/2, ... with 1 sector interleave.) This means the sides loop should be the inside loop. We need more info on how Miracle did this from Stuart Honeyball or TT or Marcel(?). Even info on the IBM 2.88 drive is scarce on the internet, or I am not that fluent in Googleing. I did find however they were used in the NeXT computers. Bob -- The BSJR QL software site at: http://members.chello.nl/b.spelten/ql/ ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Making an image of an ED Disk Drive
There's a confusion between sector and cluster here. ED disks really _are_ 36 physical sectors per track. That's in the IBM spec. They should only format to 5760 physical sectors, but possibly Miracle formatted tracks beyond 80 to get the extra capacity; 88 tracks would get 6336, which is close to their quoted 6400 sectors. Anyway, a physical sector on a floppy disk is 512 bytes, but the cluster size for an ED disk is four physical sectors = 2048 bytes. (So 80*20 = 1600 clusters = 6400 sectors = 3.2MB) Then, as Bob says, the issue is understanding the order in which each cluster has been mapped to the physical sectors. Adrian www.memorylanecomputing.com -Original Message- From: ql-users-boun...@lists.q-v-d.com [mailto:ql-users-bounces@lists.q-v- d.com] On Behalf Of Bob Spelten Sent: 09 October 2011 11:15 To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] Making an image of an ED Disk Drive Op Sat, 08 Oct 2011 12:15:34 +0200 schreef Rich Mellor r...@rwapservices.co.uk: I am trying desparately to get the ED disk drive image working with the HxC floppy disk drive emulator. The ED disk drive parameters are 80 tracks 2 sides 10 sectors per track sector is 2048 bytes My BASIC code to create a copy of a disk appears below: 100 OPEN_IN #3,'flp2_*D4e' 105 OPEN_NEW #4,ram1_ED_img 107 FOR tracks=0 TO 79 108 FOR sides=0 TO 1 109 FOR sector=1 TO 10 110 GET #3\sector+sides*256+tracks*2^16,sector$ 112 AT 0,0 115 PRINT tracks,sides,sector;' ' 120 PRINT #4;sector$; 122 END FOR sector 125 END FOR sides 127 END FOR tracks 130 CLOSE Do I have this working the right way around (or should the sides loop be outside the tracks loop?) This does create an image of the correct size, but I can't get the QL to read it once converted. To convert it to the HxC format, I have tried a bitrate of 50 (same as a HD disk drive, although this may be wrong), and an RPM of 300 (although I am told it may need to be 150) Interleave is also set at 1 Any other suggestions on where I might be going wrong? DM5 confirms: 80 tracks, 10 sectors/track, 2 sides (20 sectors/cylinder, not 36 sectors) This program is probably fine if you copy them back to a disk in the same way. The HxC is however not a double sided drive so you may need to get the sectors in the right order for the ED-driver to recognise it. The DP Media Manager SE manual states that files are written in blocks of 3 sectors (chapter 5). Although this was written for DD disks it may still be useful for HD/ED. These blocks are written as follows: (track/side/sector) 0/0/0, 0/0/3, 0/0/6, 0/1/0, 0/1/3, 0/1/6 0/0/1, 0/0/4, 0/0/7, 0/1/1, 0/1/4, 0/1/7 0/0/2, 0/0/5, 0/0/8, 0/1/2, 0/1/5, 0/1/8 ... So 6 blocks, 18 sectors, one cylinder, filling track 0. Then for track 1 to n it gets more complicated, an offset is used to find the next sector. (entry + (track * offset)) MOD sectors_per_track (Now it gets confusing, MMSE states the offset =5, DM5 reports 320! And I don't get how this works.) Some speculation. As you can see sides are used in turn, as ED uses 1 sector/block this could mean: 0/0/0, 0/1/0, 0/0/1, 0/1/1, ... 20 blocks, filling 20 sectors. (or 0/0/0, 0/1/0, 0/0/2, 0/1/2, ... with 1 sector interleave.) This means the sides loop should be the inside loop. We need more info on how Miracle did this from Stuart Honeyball or TT or Marcel(?). Even info on the IBM 2.88 drive is scarce on the internet, or I am not that fluent in Googleing. I did find however they were used in the NeXT computers. Bob -- The BSJR QL software site at: http://members.chello.nl/b.spelten/ql/ ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Making an image of an ED Disk Drive
Op Sun, 09 Oct 2011 13:32:24 +0200 schreef Memory Lane Computing Ltd sa...@memorylanecomputing.com: There's a confusion between sector and cluster here. ED disks really _are_ 36 physical sectors per track. That's in the IBM spec. They should only format to 5760 physical sectors, but possibly Miracle formatted tracks beyond 80 to get the extra capacity; 88 tracks would get 6336, which is close to their quoted 6400 sectors. Anyway, a physical sector on a floppy disk is 512 bytes, but the cluster size for an ED disk is four physical sectors = 2048 bytes. (So 80*20 = 1600 clusters = 6400 sectors = 3.2MB) Then, as Bob says, the issue is understanding the order in which each cluster has been mapped to the physical sectors. In the CONQUEROR GOLD manual they say: ED disks are not directly supported as no clear PC standard exits for them. However they could be used as pseudo-hard disks, giving a massive 6MB when used with DR-DOS's SuperStor tool. It was fun to play with but still mimicked a very slow XT on my SGC. Maybe the author Steve Sutton also has inside ED knowledge. Bob -- The BSJR QL software site at: http://members.chello.nl/b.spelten/ql/ ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Making an image of an ED Disk Drive
Hi Rich,
this is from my old qformat utility which quickly reformats a disc by
writing a blank map to the disc. The following is the ED details:
/*--*
* DS/ED MAP*
* *
* The map for a DS/ED disc takes up 3 sectors *
* of 2048 bytes each. This is because there*
* are 1600 allocation blocks on an ED disc.*
*--*/
/*-*/
US char maped[] = {'Q','L','5','B', /* HD identifier */
32,32,32,32,32,/* Medium name */
32,32,32,32,32,/* */
0,0, /* Format Random No*/
0,1,0,0, /* Update Counter */
6,60, /* Free Sectors*/
6,64, /* Good Sectors*/
6,64, /* Total Sectors */
0,10, /* Sectors per Track */
0,20, /* Sectors Per Cylinder*/
0,80, /* No of Tracks*/
0,1, /* Sectors per block */
0,0, /* Directory EOF block */
0,64, /* Directory EOF byte */
0,2, /* Sector offset per track */
0,2,4,6,8,128, /* Logical - Physical */
130,132,134,136, /* */
1,3,5,7,9,129, /* */
131,133,135,137, /* */
255,255,255,255,255, /* Spare (Phys - Log ?) */
255,255,255,255,255, /* */
255,255,255,255,255, /* */
255,255,255, /* */
255,255,255,255,255, /* Spare */
255,255,255,255,255, /* */
255,255,255,255,255, /* */
255,255,255, /* */
248,0,0, /* Block 0 = MAP */
248,0,1, /* Block 1 = MAP */
248,0,2, /* Block 2 = MAP */
0,0,0};/* Block 3 = DIR */
/*-*/
So, 80 tracks, 2 sides, 1 sector per block, 10 sectors per track, which
is where 3.2 mB comes from:
2 (sides) * 80 (tracks) * 10 (sectors) * 2 KB = 3.2 Mb.
The interleave factor is 2 which means read sector 0, then 2, 4, 6 8
on side 0, then switch sides to side 1 and read 0, 2, 4, 6, 8 there then
come back to side 0 and read 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 - the logical to
physical table shows this. The side number is bit 7.
I assume that this is the order you will need to read the data in order
to get it onto a single sided SD card.
Do I have this working the right way around (or should the sides loop be
outside the tracks loop?)
See above, the sectors are interleaved. And even worse, when you move
from track 0 to track 1, because the drive is spinning as the head
moved, to avoid having to wait, you add on the sector offset per track
so on side 0, track 1, you read 2,4,6,8,0 then side 1 - 2,4,6,8,0, then
side 0 - 3,5,7,9,1 and so on.
This does create an image of the correct size, but I can't get the QL to
read it once converted.
Probably because you have read a whole side at once. Then the other.
HTH
Cheers,
Norm.
--
Norman Dunbar
Dunbar IT Consultants Ltd
Registered address:
Thorpe House
61 Richardshaw Lane
Pudsey
West Yorkshire
United Kingdom
LS28 7EL
Company Number: 05132767
___
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Re: [Ql-Users] Making an image of an ED Disk Drive
Ah, so that means the Gold Card was setting the controller to use 2048 byte sectors, so my previous comments about clusters are not valid. No wonder the disks were never compatible with the PC :) Thanks for that information, Norman. Very helpful and that should solve Rich's problem at a stroke. Adrian www.memorylanecomputing.com -Original Message- From: ql-users-boun...@lists.q-v-d.com [mailto:ql-users-bounces@lists.q-v- d.com] On Behalf Of Norman Dunbar Sent: 09 October 2011 14:56 To: ql-users@lists.q-v-d.com Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] Making an image of an ED Disk Drive Hi Rich, this is from my old qformat utility which quickly reformats a disc by writing a blank map to the disc. The following is the ED details: /*--* ---SNIP --- ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Making an image of an ED Disk Drive
On 09/10/2011 14:55, Norman Dunbar wrote:
Hi Rich,
this is from my old qformat utility which quickly reformats a disc by
writing a blank map to the disc. The following is the ED details:
/*--*
* DS/ED MAP*
**
* The map for a DS/ED disc takes up 3 sectors*
* of 2048 bytes each. This is because there*
* are 1600 allocation blocks on an ED disc.*
*--*/
/*-*/
US char maped[] = {'Q','L','5','B', /* HD identifier */
32,32,32,32,32, /* Medium name */
32,32,32,32,32, /* */
0,0, /* Format Random No */
0,1,0,0, /* Update Counter */
6,60, /* Free Sectors */
6,64, /* Good Sectors */
6,64, /* Total Sectors */
0,10, /* Sectors per Track */
0,20, /* Sectors Per Cylinder*/
0,80, /* No of Tracks */
0,1, /* Sectors per block */
0,0, /* Directory EOF block */
0,64, /* Directory EOF byte */
0,2, /* Sector offset per track */
0,2,4,6,8,128, /* Logical - Physical */
130,132,134,136, /* */
1,3,5,7,9,129, /* */
131,133,135,137, /* */
255,255,255,255,255, /* Spare (Phys - Log ?) */
255,255,255,255,255, /* */
255,255,255,255,255, /* */
255,255,255, /* */
255,255,255,255,255, /* Spare */
255,255,255,255,255, /* */
255,255,255,255,255, /* */
255,255,255, /* */
248,0,0, /* Block 0 = MAP */
248,0,1, /* Block 1 = MAP */
248,0,2, /* Block 2 = MAP */
0,0,0}; /* Block 3 = DIR */
/*-*/
So, 80 tracks, 2 sides, 1 sector per block, 10 sectors per track,
which is where 3.2 mB comes from:
2 (sides) * 80 (tracks) * 10 (sectors) * 2 KB = 3.2 Mb.
The interleave factor is 2 which means read sector 0, then 2, 4, 6 8
on side 0, then switch sides to side 1 and read 0, 2, 4, 6, 8 there
then come back to side 0 and read 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 - the logical to
physical table shows this. The side number is bit 7.
I assume that this is the order you will need to read the data in
order to get it onto a single sided SD card.
Do I have this working the right way around (or should the sides loop be
outside the tracks loop?)
See above, the sectors are interleaved. And even worse, when you move
from track 0 to track 1, because the drive is spinning as the head
moved, to avoid having to wait, you add on the sector offset per track
so on side 0, track 1, you read 2,4,6,8,0 then side 1 - 2,4,6,8,0,
then side 0 - 3,5,7,9,1 and so on.
This does create an image of the correct size, but I can't get the QL to
read it once converted.
Probably because you have read a whole side at once. Then the other.
HTH
Cheers,
Norm.
OK, so that appears to give an updated program:
100 OPEN_IN #3,'flp2_*D4e'
105 OPEN_NEW #4,ram1_ED_img
107 FOR tracks=0 TO 79
108 side=0
109 FOR sector=1,3,5,7,9
110 GET #3\sector+side*256+tracks*2^16,sector$
111 PRINT #4;sector$;
112 END FOR sector
113 side=1
114 FOR sector=1,3,5,7,9
115 GET #3\sector+side*256+tracks*2^16,sector$
116 PRINT #4;sector$;
117 END FOR sector
118 side=0
119 FOR sector=2,4,6,8,10
120 GET #3\sector+side*256+tracks*2^16,sector$
121 PRINT #4;sector$;
122 END FOR sector
123 side=1
124 FOR sector=2,4,6,8,10
125 GET #3\sector+side*256+tracks*2^16,sector$
126 PRINT #4;sector$;
127 END FOR sector
128 AT 0,0
129 PRINT tracks;' '
127 END FOR tracks
130 CLOSE
(remember that for the GET#3\sector, the first sector is sector 1).
--
Rich Mellor
RWAP Services
Specialist Enuuk Auction Programming Services
www.rwapservices.co.uk
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Re: [Ql-Users] Making an image of an ED Disk Drive
Evening Rich, OK, so that appears to give an updated program: I think that will indeed work. By the way, my Wiki has full (I hope) details of the QL5A and QL5B Floppy format on this URL http://qdosmsq.dunbar-it.co.uk/doku.php?id=qdosmsq:fs:dsdd Might be useful? Ok, I admit, the ED stuff is currently missing in action, but should arrive soon. Cheers, Norm. -- Norman Dunbar Dunbar IT Consultants Ltd Registered address: Thorpe House 61 Richardshaw Lane Pudsey West Yorkshire United Kingdom LS28 7EL Company Number: 05132767 ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Making an image of an ED Disk Drive
Rich, From memory I believe an ED disk has 36 sectors per track, but it is 300 rpm. Data rate is 1Mbps. ... but I could be wrong. It's been a damn long time. Adrian www.memorylanecomputing.com -Original Message- From: ql-users-boun...@lists.q-v-d.com [mailto:ql-users-bounces@lists.q-v- d.com] On Behalf Of Rich Mellor Sent: 08 October 2011 11:16 To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com Subject: [Ql-Users] Making an image of an ED Disk Drive I am trying desparately to get the ED disk drive image working with the HxC floppy disk drive emulator. The ED disk drive parameters are 80 tracks 2 sides 10 sectors per track sector is 2048 bytes My BASIC code to create a copy of a disk appears below: 100 OPEN_IN #3,'flp2_*D4e' 105 OPEN_NEW #4,ram1_ED_img 107 FOR tracks=0 TO 79 108 FOR sides=0 TO 1 109 FOR sector=1 TO 10 110 GET #3\sector+sides*256+tracks*2^16,sector$ 112 AT 0,0 115 PRINT tracks,sides,sector;' ' 120 PRINT #4;sector$; 122 END FOR sector 125 END FOR sides 127 END FOR tracks 130 CLOSE Do I have this working the right way around (or should the sides loop be outside the tracks loop?) This does create an image of the correct size, but I can't get the QL to read it once converted. To convert it to the HxC format, I have tried a bitrate of 50 (same as a HD disk drive, although this may be wrong), and an RPM of 300 (although I am told it may need to be 150) Interleave is also set at 1 Any other suggestions on where I might be going wrong? -- Rich Mellor RWAP Software Specialist Retro Computer Dealer http://www.rwapsoftware.co.uk -- Try out our new site: http://sellmyretro.com ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
