Re: [qubes-users] Long-time Beta Users, do you wipe or upgrade?

2017-06-27 Thread Jean-Philippe Ouellet 
On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 11:21 AM, Eric Duncan  wrote:
> Currently running Qubes 3.2 on one machine.  Have a need to install it on 
> another.
>
> To all of you long-term beta users of 3.x and now 4.x...
>
> 1a) Are upgrades simple to RTM versions of Qubes?
>
> Or 1b) Do you wipe and format each time a beta or RC comes out?
>
> I'm debating install Qubes 4.0 beta/rc, and going for the upgrade.
>
>
> Alternatively... Is there a way to use some type of "Testing" repo for Qubes? 
>  Something like rolling updates of Debian Testing does?
>
> I was perfectly happy with Debian Testing on a previous build, until I moved 
> to Arch which was a bit more stable with its rolling releases.
>
> I wouldn't mind installing a "rolling release" of Qubes under a Testing repo, 
> if there is one.
>
> Thanks!

Upgrading vs. reinstalling do not result in the same final system
state. I am nearly certain there are yet-unknown corner cases. This is
even true within the same Qubes release [1].

By upgrading R3.1 -> R3.2 I've ended up with a somehow messed up pam
config preventing any graphical logins, an application menu with stale
and broken entries, broken sound (residual xfce volumed not un-muting
the master channel bug), degraded trackpad drivers (leftover synaptics
drivers configured to take precedence over libinput) and undoubtedly
other things I didn't notice. I now reinstall and restore VMs every
time.

Upgrading is "supported" [2], but personally I think we should just
drop support for upgrading all together and force people to back up
their AppVMs and restore them onto the new install. People should be
doing backups anyway, re-importing with paranoid mode allows making a
clean break from potential old compromises, and upgrading isn't
actually as well tested as people may be lead to believe by the
existence of the upgrade docs.

Good luck,
Jean-Philippe

[1]: https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/2742
[2]: https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/upgrade-to-r3.2/

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Re: [qubes-users] Long-time Beta Users, do you wipe or upgrade?

2017-06-26 Thread Eric Duncan 
On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 10:44:41 PM UTC-4, cooloutac wrote:
>I guess just use testing or unstable repos if you want to have the latest 
> for now.   I have no idea where to get the beta for 4.0 if thats what you're 
> asking.

Yes, that's partly what I am asking.  I read where 4.0 is going to have a bit 
more restrictive requirements and while I have tested most of my hardware, I 
still want to use the latest 4.0 "beta" for now.

Yeah, where do you get 4.0 beta?  I see the source seems to point to version 
4.0.0:

https://github.com/QubesOS/

I also see "branches" of each release, such as Release 3.2:

https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-core-admin/tree/release3.2

Are we supposed to pull the 4 main repos and build 4.0 ourselves?  It doesn't 
look that difficult. 

Overall, I am wondering if there basically is a way to enable a "repo" and just 
update to mostly what the devs are pushing to.  

But yeah, if there are separate branches... I guess I can just pick a version 
and stick to it.

I replace Xfce with i3wm anyways... Which removes the vast majority of the GUI 
work by the team.  All that is left is basically the hypervisor and inner-VM 
communications (and Display VM - which has some issues with i3wm, such as that 
I haven't found a way to fullscreen something yet).  

If there has been significant infrastructure changes to those, I see the point 
of repaving and restoring.  Then again, Arch is more than happy to break your 
current installation with its rolling release because of a change (e.g. the 
move to "systemd" one sunny day that shocked everyone).

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Re: [qubes-users] Long-time Beta Users, do you wipe or upgrade?

2017-06-26 Thread cooloutac 

if you worried about having the latest security releases I use security testing 
repo.

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Re: [qubes-users] Long-time Beta Users, do you wipe or upgrade?

2017-06-26 Thread cooloutac 
On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 7:38:59 PM UTC-4, Francesco wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 3:21 PM, Eric Duncan  wrote:
> On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 1:27:19 PM UTC-4, cooloutac wrote:
> 
> >
> 
> > upgrading to the latest release from previous version didn't go well for 
> > me. There are instructions on how to do so and maybe I did something wrong. 
> >  But I had to reinstall fresh and restore backups which went smooth.
> 
> >
> 
> > Most Qubes users are paranoids and probably wipe their drive occasionally 
> > anyways.
> 
> >
> 
> > I wouldn't consider Qubes a rolling release Its one big huge version 
> > update. Next Qubes version I think will be 4.0.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I don't plan to upgrade.  This will be another clean install.
> 
> 
> 
> That's what I am trying to get.. 4.0, or the latest "tip" of Qubes that 
> everyone is using for development and submitting updated packages for.
> 
> 
> 
> Would I get "4.0" from just a fresh install, and then enabling the 
> Testing/SecurityTesting repos and upgrading?
> 
> 
> 
> Or, is Qubes not setup to roll the latest from a tip?  But instead, there are 
> separate branches for each release (3.1, 3.2, 4.0, etc) and a "Testing" 
> branch for each one of them?
> 
> 
> 
> That's kind of how Kali used to do it (I think) which annoyed some of us that 
> wanted to contribute, but our contributions got lost in the older versions or 
> wasn't merged to the latest branches, etc.  Then Kali switched to Rolling 
> releases, with a single Tip/Testing branch - and snapshots (with branches) 
> for official releases.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ps: Heh, paranoids - wiping often.  I did that a lot w/Windows, mostly cause 
> of instability after 6mos.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rolling releases work well with more mature systems like Arch. But each new 
> major version of Qubes included important architectural changes. So what 
> could be passed easily to the next was only the backup of applVMs.
> 
> 
> Also these major changes were mostly motivated by security reasons. So why 
> keep something that was generated in a less secure environment?
> 
> Best
> 
> 
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I just wiped my drive and reinstalled qubes,  is pretty effortless and quick on 
an i5 and ssd.   backing up 1 or 2 dozen vms.  one with lots of pics and 
videos, encrypted drive,  then installing and restoring it less then an hour 
for sure.  felt like 30-40 mins but it actually was not a whole of gigs. the vm 
with the media files has the most everything total 60 gb maybe on usb3.

   I guess just use testing or unstable repos if you want to have the latest 
for now.   I have no idea where to get the beta for 4.0 if thats what you're 
asking.

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Re: [qubes-users] Long-time Beta Users, do you wipe or upgrade?

2017-06-26 Thread Franz 
On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 3:21 PM, Eric Duncan  wrote:

> On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 1:27:19 PM UTC-4, cooloutac wrote:
> >
> > upgrading to the latest release from previous version didn't go well for
> me. There are instructions on how to do so and maybe I did something
> wrong.  But I had to reinstall fresh and restore backups which went smooth.
> >
> > Most Qubes users are paranoids and probably wipe their drive
> occasionally anyways.
> >
> > I wouldn't consider Qubes a rolling release Its one big huge version
> update. Next Qubes version I think will be 4.0.
>
> Yeah, I don't plan to upgrade.  This will be another clean install.
>
> That's what I am trying to get.. 4.0, or the latest "tip" of Qubes that
> everyone is using for development and submitting updated packages for.
>
> Would I get "4.0" from just a fresh install, and then enabling the
> Testing/SecurityTesting repos and upgrading?
>
> Or, is Qubes not setup to roll the latest from a tip?  But instead, there
> are separate branches for each release (3.1, 3.2, 4.0, etc) and a "Testing"
> branch for each one of them?
>
> That's kind of how Kali used to do it (I think) which annoyed some of us
> that wanted to contribute, but our contributions got lost in the older
> versions or wasn't merged to the latest branches, etc.  Then Kali switched
> to Rolling releases, with a single Tip/Testing branch - and snapshots (with
> branches) for official releases.
>
>
>
> Ps: Heh, paranoids - wiping often.  I did that a lot w/Windows, mostly
> cause of instability after 6mos.
>
>
Rolling releases work well with more mature systems like Arch. But each new
major version of Qubes included important architectural changes. So what
could be passed easily to the next was only the backup of applVMs.

Also these major changes were mostly motivated by security reasons. So why
keep something that was generated in a less secure environment?
Best

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Re: [qubes-users] Long-time Beta Users, do you wipe or upgrade?

2017-06-26 Thread Eric Duncan 
On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 1:27:19 PM UTC-4, cooloutac wrote:
> 
> upgrading to the latest release from previous version didn't go well for me. 
> There are instructions on how to do so and maybe I did something wrong.  But 
> I had to reinstall fresh and restore backups which went smooth.
> 
> Most Qubes users are paranoids and probably wipe their drive occasionally 
> anyways.
> 
> I wouldn't consider Qubes a rolling release Its one big huge version update. 
> Next Qubes version I think will be 4.0.

Yeah, I don't plan to upgrade.  This will be another clean install.  

That's what I am trying to get.. 4.0, or the latest "tip" of Qubes that 
everyone is using for development and submitting updated packages for.

Would I get "4.0" from just a fresh install, and then enabling the 
Testing/SecurityTesting repos and upgrading?

Or, is Qubes not setup to roll the latest from a tip?  But instead, there are 
separate branches for each release (3.1, 3.2, 4.0, etc) and a "Testing" branch 
for each one of them?

That's kind of how Kali used to do it (I think) which annoyed some of us that 
wanted to contribute, but our contributions got lost in the older versions or 
wasn't merged to the latest branches, etc.  Then Kali switched to Rolling 
releases, with a single Tip/Testing branch - and snapshots (with branches) for 
official releases.



Ps: Heh, paranoids - wiping often.  I did that a lot w/Windows, mostly cause of 
instability after 6mos.

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Re: [qubes-users] Long-time Beta Users, do you wipe or upgrade?

2017-06-26 Thread cooloutac 
On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 11:25:52 AM UTC-4, Eric Duncan wrote:
> On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 10:09:23 AM UTC-4, Noor Christensen wrote:
> > On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 08:21:10AM -0700, Eric Duncan wrote:
> > > Alternatively... Is there a way to use some type of "Testing" repo for
> > > Qubes?  Something like rolling updates of Debian Testing does?
> > > 
> > > I was perfectly happy with Debian Testing on a previous build, until I
> > > moved to Arch which was a bit more stable with its rolling releases.
> > > 
> > > I wouldn't mind installing a "rolling release" of Qubes under a
> > > Testing repo, if there is one.  
> > 
> > Yes, there are three repos that offer packages not yet merged to stable:
> > 
> > qubes-dom0-current-testingtesting packages that will eventually land in 
> > the stable (current) repository
> > qubes-dom0-security-testing   a subset of qubes-dom0-current-testing that 
> > contains packages that qualify as security fixes
> > qubes-dom0-unstable   packages that are not intended to land in the 
> > stable (qubes-dom0-current) repository; mostly experimental debugging 
> > packages
> > 
> > See the "Testing repositories" section of the official docs:
> > https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/software-update-dom0/#how-to-update-software-in-dom0
> > 
> > -- noor
> > 
> > |_|O|_|
> > |_|_|O|  Noor Christensen  
> > |O|O|O|  no...@fripost.org ~ 0x401DA1E0
> 
> 
> Thanks!  Yep, I found that wiki after I posted (oops).
> 
> One question: would these repos be considered "Rolling" releases?  I mean, 
> they aren't cut as releases, but would always have the "Tip" of packages, 
> fixes and updates?
> 
> qubes-dom0-current-testingtesting packages that will eventually land in 
> the stable (current) repository 
> qubes-dom0-security-testing   a subset of qubes-dom0-current-testing that 
> contains packages that qualify as security fixes 
> 
> I do not plan on running unstable.  :)
> 
> Thanks!

upgrading to the latest release from previous version didn't go well for me. 
There are instructions on how to do so and maybe I did something wrong.  But I 
had to reinstall fresh and restore backups which went smooth.

Most Qubes users are paranoids and probably wipe their drive occasionally 
anyways.

I wouldn't consider Qubes a rolling release Its one big huge version update. 
Next Qubes version I think will be 4.0.

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Re: [qubes-users] Long-time Beta Users, do you wipe or upgrade?

2017-06-26 Thread Eric Duncan 
On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 10:09:23 AM UTC-4, Noor Christensen wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 08:21:10AM -0700, Eric Duncan wrote:
> > Alternatively... Is there a way to use some type of "Testing" repo for
> > Qubes?  Something like rolling updates of Debian Testing does?
> > 
> > I was perfectly happy with Debian Testing on a previous build, until I
> > moved to Arch which was a bit more stable with its rolling releases.
> > 
> > I wouldn't mind installing a "rolling release" of Qubes under a
> > Testing repo, if there is one.  
> 
> Yes, there are three repos that offer packages not yet merged to stable:
> 
> qubes-dom0-current-testingtesting packages that will eventually land in 
> the stable (current) repository
> qubes-dom0-security-testing   a subset of qubes-dom0-current-testing that 
> contains packages that qualify as security fixes
> qubes-dom0-unstable   packages that are not intended to land in the 
> stable (qubes-dom0-current) repository; mostly experimental debugging packages
> 
> See the "Testing repositories" section of the official docs:
> https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/software-update-dom0/#how-to-update-software-in-dom0
> 
> -- noor
> 
> |_|O|_|
> |_|_|O|  Noor Christensen  
> |O|O|O|  no...@fripost.org ~ 0x401DA1E0


Thanks!  Yep, I found that wiki after I posted (oops).

One question: would these repos be considered "Rolling" releases?  I mean, they 
aren't cut as releases, but would always have the "Tip" of packages, fixes and 
updates?

qubes-dom0-current-testingtesting packages that will eventually land in the 
stable (current) repository 
qubes-dom0-security-testing   a subset of qubes-dom0-current-testing that 
contains packages that qualify as security fixes 

I do not plan on running unstable.  :)

Thanks!

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Re: [qubes-users] Long-time Beta Users, do you wipe or upgrade?

2017-06-26 Thread Noor Christensen 
On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 08:21:10AM -0700, Eric Duncan wrote:
> Alternatively... Is there a way to use some type of "Testing" repo for
> Qubes?  Something like rolling updates of Debian Testing does?
> 
> I was perfectly happy with Debian Testing on a previous build, until I
> moved to Arch which was a bit more stable with its rolling releases.
> 
> I wouldn't mind installing a "rolling release" of Qubes under a
> Testing repo, if there is one.  

Yes, there are three repos that offer packages not yet merged to stable:

qubes-dom0-current-testingtesting packages that will eventually land in the 
stable (current) repository
qubes-dom0-security-testing   a subset of qubes-dom0-current-testing that 
contains packages that qualify as security fixes
qubes-dom0-unstable   packages that are not intended to land in the 
stable (qubes-dom0-current) repository; mostly experimental debugging packages

See the "Testing repositories" section of the official docs:
https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/software-update-dom0/#how-to-update-software-in-dom0

-- noor

|_|O|_|
|_|_|O|  Noor Christensen  
|O|O|O|  n...@fripost.org ~ 0x401DA1E0

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[qubes-users] Long-time Beta Users, do you wipe or upgrade?

2017-06-22 Thread Eric Duncan 
Currently running Qubes 3.2 on one machine.  Have a need to install it on 
another.

To all of you long-term beta users of 3.x and now 4.x... 

1a) Are upgrades simple to RTM versions of Qubes?

Or 1b) Do you wipe and format each time a beta or RC comes out?

I'm debating install Qubes 4.0 beta/rc, and going for the upgrade.


Alternatively... Is there a way to use some type of "Testing" repo for Qubes?  
Something like rolling updates of Debian Testing does?

I was perfectly happy with Debian Testing on a previous build, until I moved to 
Arch which was a bit more stable with its rolling releases.

I wouldn't mind installing a "rolling release" of Qubes under a Testing repo, 
if there is one.  

Thanks!

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