Re: [R] Trailing on r-help messages
I think that is likely true but it would at least mean that they had seen it repeatedly and there would really be no excuse for not following it (unlike the current situation where one needs to take action to follow the posting guide link and then read a lengthy page). Logically, that makes sense. However, try asking a group of R users how to cite R (or how to find out how to cite R). I think it's a good idea to make the default list signature as good as possible, I just don't think it will have that much effect. Supplying a small reproducible example when reporting an error is common-sense (how else will the developers/others be able to replicate it?) and yet it is very rare (not just in R, but in any project). Hadley __ R-help@stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
Re: [R] Trailing on r-help messages
Thanks to Gabor, Spencer, and Hadley, for the constructive propositions. hadley == hadley wickham [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Mon, 17 Jul 2006 09:39:36 +0100 writes: I think that is likely true but it would at least mean that they had seen it repeatedly and there would really be no excuse for not following it (unlike the current situation where one needs to take action to follow the posting guide link and then read a lengthy page). hadley Logically, that makes sense. However, try asking a group of R users hadley how to cite R (or how to find out how to cite R). hadley I think it's a good idea to make the default list hadley signature as good as possible, I just don't think it hadley will have that much effect. Supplying a small hadley reproducible example when reporting an error is hadley common-sense (how else will the developers/others hadley be able to replicate it?) and yet it is very rare hadley (not just in R, but in any project). I can well agree to slightly extend the R-help message footer, e.g., to 4 instead of 3 lines. Maybe we can move discussion of the final wording off list. I also agree that the effect from that change will probably not be very big. To other points made: - Most R-SIG-* lists have their own maintainers (i.e. different from me). It's really the maintainers decision (and job) to change the default footer. I cannot change the default footer for all newly generated mailing lists here, because some are non-R related. - The inscription page is dynamically generated by mailman, i.e., typically python scripts. If any of you are interested in patching Mailman's sources in a reasonable way (i.e. easily reproducible for the next version of mailman), I'd consider a change there; otherwise not. Martin Maechler, ETH Zurich (Maintainer of R-help and a few other R-* mailing lists) __ R-help@stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
Re: [R] Trailing on r-help messages
- The inscription page is dynamically generated by mailman, i.e., typically python scripts. If any of you are interested in patching Mailman's sources in a reasonable way (i.e. easily reproducible for the next version of mailman), I'd consider a change there; otherwise not. The other alternative is to simply create a static page that points to the same places. This is what I did for GGobi : http://ggobi.org/support/. Hadley __ R-help@stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
Re: [R] Trailing on r-help messages
see in line hadley wickham wrote: I think that is likely true but it would at least mean that they had seen it repeatedly and there would really be no excuse for not following it (unlike the current situation where one needs to take action to follow the posting guide link and then read a lengthy page). Logically, that makes sense. However, try asking a group of R users how to cite R (or how to find out how to cite R). I think it's a good idea to make the default list signature as good as possible, I just don't think it will have that much effect. Supplying a small reproducible example when reporting an error is common-sense (how else will the developers/others be able to replicate it?) and yet it is very rare (not just in R, but in any project). I believe the introduction of the posting guide actually increased the quality of the posts. I didn't affect all posts nor even a majority, but it did impact enough that we are seeing some benefit, I think. My only solid evidence of this are the infrequent but nonzero number of comments from people who acknowledging finding answers to their own problems by actually walking through the Posting Guide. Polya's How To Solve It has NOT been read by every mathematician or statistician, but many people have read it, and what they've learned from Polya comes out in contributions to this listserve. Best Wishes, Spencer Graves Hadley __ R-help@stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html __ R-help@stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
[R] Trailing on r-help messages
I would like to propose that we change the trailer on r-help messages which is currently: R-help@stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html to add the following 4th line: and provide minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. The posting guide is so long that I suspect few people really read it so at least this way the most important part of the message about posting would be readily visible without further user action. Of course minimal refers to cutting the code down to remove anything not related to the question at hand while self-contained and reproducible refer to being able to copy the code from the post and paste it into an R session to reproduce the problem. __ R-help@stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
Re: [R] Trailing on r-help messages
Hi, Gabor: Sounds great. May I suggest a minor modification something like the following; R-help@stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE include in your post minimal, self-contained, reproducible code as suggested in posting guide, www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html. Posts more consistent with this standard tend to get quicker, more useful replies. I'd also suggest adding something like this to the Special Interest Group posts as well. I also reply to questions on R-sig-finance, and I find myself going to R-help to copy the PLEASE do read the posting guide comment for r-sig-finance. Thanks for suggesting this. Spencer Graves Gabor Grothendieck wrote: I would like to propose that we change the trailer on r-help messages which is currently: R-help@stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html to add the following 4th line: and provide minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. The posting guide is so long that I suspect few people really read it so at least this way the most important part of the message about posting would be readily visible without further user action. Of course minimal refers to cutting the code down to remove anything not related to the question at hand while self-contained and reproducible refer to being able to copy the code from the post and paste it into an R session to reproduce the problem. __ R-help@stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html __ R-help@stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
Re: [R] Trailing on r-help messages
Personally, I doubt anyone actually reads the bottom of the emails, and generally it is too late anyway, as they have already sent the message. Much like the opening text in R, details in footer tend to trigger legalese neurons and are largely ignored. I think it would be more useful to radically redesign the signup page so that pertinent information is highlighted and the page made easily scannable. As it is, the eye tends to skip to the action part and fill out name and email address without reading the rest of the page. Hadley On 7/16/06, Gabor Grothendieck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would like to propose that we change the trailer on r-help messages which is currently: R-help@stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html to add the following 4th line: and provide minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. The posting guide is so long that I suspect few people really read it so at least this way the most important part of the message about posting would be readily visible without further user action. Of course minimal refers to cutting the code down to remove anything not related to the question at hand while self-contained and reproducible refer to being able to copy the code from the post and paste it into an R session to reproduce the problem. __ R-help@stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html __ R-help@stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
Re: [R] Trailing on r-help messages
Or just reminding the rules to the list now and then (as it was done today). I, for one, am happy I got reminded, and appologise for my previous posting. Trying to provide reproductible code forced me to find my own mistake! mihai hadley wickham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Personally, I doubt anyone actually reads the bottom of the emails, and generally it is too late anyway, as they have already sent the message. Much like the opening text in R, details in footer tend to trigger legalese neurons and are largely ignored. I think it would be more useful to radically redesign the signup page so that pertinent information is highlighted and the page made easily scannable. As it is, the eye tends to skip to the action part and fill out name and email address without reading the rest of the page. Hadley On 7/16/06, Gabor Grothendieck wrote: I would like to propose that we change the trailer on r-help messages which is currently: R-help@stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html to add the following 4th line: and provide minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. The posting guide is so long that I suspect few people really read it so at least this way the most important part of the message about posting would be readily visible without further user action. Of course minimal refers to cutting the code down to remove anything not related to the question at hand while self-contained and reproducible refer to being able to copy the code from the post and paste it into an R session to reproduce the problem. __ R-help@stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html __ R-help@stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html Mihai Nica ITT Tech instructor Jackson State University 170 East Griffith St. G5 Jackson, MS 39201 601-914-0361 - [[alternative HTML version deleted]] __ R-help@stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
Re: [R] Trailing on r-help messages
On 7/16/06, hadley wickham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Personally, I doubt anyone actually reads the bottom of the emails, and generally it is too late anyway, as they have already sent the message. Much like the opening text in R, details in footer tend to trigger legalese neurons and are largely ignored. They might read it when reading other people's messages since it would be at the bottom of every single one. I think it would be more useful to radically redesign the signup page so that pertinent information is highlighted and the page made easily scannable. As it is, the eye tends to skip to the action part and fill out name and email address without reading the rest of the page. Good idea. Of course these are not mutually exclusive. Hadley On 7/16/06, Gabor Grothendieck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would like to propose that we change the trailer on r-help messages which is currently: R-help@stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html to add the following 4th line: and provide minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. The posting guide is so long that I suspect few people really read it so at least this way the most important part of the message about posting would be readily visible without further user action. Of course minimal refers to cutting the code down to remove anything not related to the question at hand while self-contained and reproducible refer to being able to copy the code from the post and paste it into an R session to reproduce the problem. __ R-help@stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html __ R-help@stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
Re: [R] Trailing on r-help messages
I was trying to keep it to 4 lines making it more likely read than a longer description. On 7/16/06, Spencer Graves [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Gabor: Sounds great. May I suggest a minor modification something like the following; R-help@stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE include in your post minimal, self-contained, reproducible code as suggested in posting guide, www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html. Posts more consistent with this standard tend to get quicker, more useful replies. I'd also suggest adding something like this to the Special Interest Group posts as well. I also reply to questions on R-sig-finance, and I find myself going to R-help to copy the PLEASE do read the posting guide comment for r-sig-finance. Thanks for suggesting this. Spencer Graves Gabor Grothendieck wrote: I would like to propose that we change the trailer on r-help messages which is currently: R-help@stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html to add the following 4th line: and provide minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. The posting guide is so long that I suspect few people really read it so at least this way the most important part of the message about posting would be readily visible without further user action. Of course minimal refers to cutting the code down to remove anything not related to the question at hand while self-contained and reproducible refer to being able to copy the code from the post and paste it into an R session to reproduce the problem. __ R-help@stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html __ R-help@stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
Re: [R] Trailing on r-help messages
Hi, Gabor: Yes. Saying more often communicates less. Spencer Graves Gabor Grothendieck wrote: I was trying to keep it to 4 lines making it more likely read than a longer description. On 7/16/06, Spencer Graves [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Gabor: Sounds great. May I suggest a minor modification something like the following; R-help@stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE include in your post minimal, self-contained, reproducible code as suggested in posting guide, www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html. Posts more consistent with this standard tend to get quicker, more useful replies. I'd also suggest adding something like this to the Special Interest Group posts as well. I also reply to questions on R-sig-finance, and I find myself going to R-help to copy the PLEASE do read the posting guide comment for r-sig-finance. Thanks for suggesting this. Spencer Graves Gabor Grothendieck wrote: I would like to propose that we change the trailer on r-help messages which is currently: R-help@stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html to add the following 4th line: and provide minimal, self-contained, reproducible code. The posting guide is so long that I suspect few people really read it so at least this way the most important part of the message about posting would be readily visible without further user action. Of course minimal refers to cutting the code down to remove anything not related to the question at hand while self-contained and reproducible refer to being able to copy the code from the post and paste it into an R session to reproduce the problem. __ R-help@stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html __ R-help@stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html __ R-help@stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
Re: [R] Trailing on r-help messages
They might read it when reading other people's messages since it would be at the bottom of every single one. Perhaps, it might also trigger same-blindness: seeing the same thing again and again makes it less and less likely to really percieve it. Hadley __ R-help@stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
Re: [R] Trailing on r-help messages
On 7/16/06, hadley wickham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They might read it when reading other people's messages since it would be at the bottom of every single one. Perhaps, it might also trigger same-blindness: seeing the same thing again and again makes it less and less likely to really percieve it. Hadley I think that is likely true but it would at least mean that they had seen it repeatedly and there would really be no excuse for not following it (unlike the current situation where one needs to take action to follow the posting guide link and then read a lengthy page). __ R-help@stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
