Re: [R] wicked wikis for R
From: Arin Basu [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: r-help@stat.math.ethz.ch Date: 8 Jan 2006 19:18:17 - Subject: [R] wicked wikis for R Message: 41 Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2006 13:52:33 +1100 From: paul sorenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [R] Wikis etc. To: Frank E Harrell Jr [EMAIL PROTECTED], r-help r-help@stat.math.ethz.ch -snip- Among others, here's one long-term benefit for the newbies. Instead of people getting admonished/thrashed with harsh expressions/advices like go see the mailing list publishing etiquettes, or you should search the archives and help files, and read all manuals, and ask others first before posting here... (which can turn away many a newcomer from posting or using the mailing list or using R for that matter), wiki could make life a little easy for newbies/less experienced who could then receive more polite one liners like, please check the wikipages..., or solution #xyz in the wikipages for the solution. Sorry, I don't get the point here. Some people will keep feeling offensed when they're just told to read the man/wiki pages, and others will simply change their answers from RTFM to RTFW. Nobody can force people into reading the manuals, or reading the posting guide. This is definitely one problem that the wiki will not solve. I like the idea of the wiki, but we have to consider pragmatically, not as a panacea from problems beyond its scope. Regards, Jean-Christophe Bouëtté. __ R-help@stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
Re: [R] wicked wikis for R
Jean-Christophe BOUETTE wrote: From: Arin Basu [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: r-help@stat.math.ethz.ch Date: 8 Jan 2006 19:18:17 - Subject: [R] wicked wikis for R Message: 41 Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2006 13:52:33 +1100 From: paul sorenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [R] Wikis etc. To: Frank E Harrell Jr [EMAIL PROTECTED], r-help r-help@stat.math.ethz.ch -snip- Among others, here's one long-term benefit for the newbies. Instead of people getting admonished/thrashed with harsh expressions/advices like go see the mailing list publishing etiquettes, or you should search the archives and help files, and read all manuals, and ask others first before posting here... (which can turn away many a newcomer from posting or using the mailing list or using R for that matter), wiki could make life a little easy for newbies/less experienced who could then receive more polite one liners like, please check the wikipages..., or solution #xyz in the wikipages for the solution. Sorry, I don't get the point here. Some people will keep feeling offensed when they're just told to read the man/wiki pages, and others will simply change their answers from RTFM to RTFW. Nobody can force people into reading the manuals, or reading the posting guide. This is definitely one problem that the wiki will not solve. I like the idea of the wiki, but we have to consider pragmatically, not as a panacea from problems beyond its scope. That would be an excellent comment if people seeking help were paying for a service. But they are not. Frank Regards, Jean-Christophe Bouëtté. -- Frank E Harrell Jr Professor and Chair School of Medicine Department of Biostatistics Vanderbilt University __ R-help@stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
Re: [R] wicked wikis for R
On Monday 09 January 2006 05:16, Jean-Christophe BOUETTE wrote: From: Arin Basu [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: r-help@stat.math.ethz.ch Date: 8 Jan 2006 19:18:17 - Subject: [R] wicked wikis for R Message: 41 Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2006 13:52:33 +1100 From: paul sorenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [R] Wikis etc. To: Frank E Harrell Jr [EMAIL PROTECTED], r-help r-help@stat.math.ethz.ch -snip- Among others, here's one long-term benefit for the newbies. Instead of people getting admonished/thrashed with harsh expressions/advices like go see the mailing list publishing etiquettes, or you should search the archives and help files, and read all manuals, and ask others first before posting here... (which can turn away many a newcomer from posting or using the mailing list or using R for that matter), wiki could make life a little easy for newbies/less experienced who could then receive more polite one liners like, please check the wikipages..., or solution #xyz in the wikipages for the solution. Sorry, I don't get the point here. Some people will keep feeling offensed when they're just told to read the man/wiki pages, and others will simply change their answers from RTFM to RTFW. Nobody can force people into reading the manuals, or reading the posting guide. This is definitely one problem that the wiki will not solve. The real issue is indexing and cross-referencing. Quite often requestors HAVE tried the manuals, but without a real clue about where to look, that can be unproductive. On the other hand, being pulled up short and Ripleyed can have a salutary effect on analyzing the problem first and researching carefully before posting a clueless query. You could see as a useful part of the learning process. JD __ R-help@stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
[R] wicked wikis for R
Message: 41 Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2006 13:52:33 +1100 From: paul sorenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [R] Wikis etc. To: Frank E Harrell Jr [EMAIL PROTECTED],r-help r-help@stat.math.ethz.ch Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Frank E Harrell Jr wrote: paul sorenson wrote: I am a fan of wiki's and I reckon it would really help with making R more accessible. On one extreme you have this email list and on the other extreme you have RNews and the PDF's on CRAN. A wiki might hit the spot between them and reduce the traffic on the email list. Thanks Paul. But as long as the email list is active I fear a wiki won't be. That would be sad if that were true. They are different beasts, as would be an IRC channel. I say complementary, not mutually exclusive. A wiki takes time to reach critical mass (eg my home brew wiki http://brewiki.org/ or wikipedia) and you couldn't just pull the plug on this list without a serious impact on the uptake of R I would have thought. Contributions to the wiki from mugs like me with less R/statistics experience would hopefully make R more accessible to newbies - pointing out the traps for new players. One way to bootstrap it is to simply add a wiki menu entry into the r-project.org menu. This is what the guys over at http://wiki.wxpython.org/ have done. Over time, some of the other items there might morph in to wiki pages as appropriate. I have no doubt that if the R-Wiki was supported in the same thoughtful, thorough and patient way in which questions on R-Help are answered, it would be one of the lowest entropy wiki's around. I think that's a great idea there. In fact, wikis and this mailing list can potentially complement each other in very efficient ways. In contrast to traditional wikis (eg. wikipedia), for R we may have to figure out some kind of novel ways of automated/manual transfer of information between wikis and mailing lists going back and forth. Specific responses or groups of responses to questions from the mailing list find a way to the wikis in the form of editable topics, and wikis get updated as people start filling in. Also, a link from the mailing list or from the main R page to the Wikis could be very useful. As the mailing list grows, so does the wiki, except the information flow from the mailing list is more controlled and fine-tuned as to what goes in there and what stays in the mailing list. Among others, here's one long-term benefit for the newbies. Instead of people getting admonished/thrashed with harsh expressions/advices like go see the mailing list publishing etiquettes, or you should search the archives and help files, and read all manuals, and ask others first before posting here... (which can turn away many a newcomer from posting or using the mailing list or using R for that matter), wiki could make life a little easy for newbies/less experienced who could then receive more polite one liners like, please check the wikipages..., or solution #xyz in the wikipages for the solution. However, for an R-wiki to be a repository of robust R guidance, quality control is extremely important. While it is somewhat easier to warn and correct each other for wrong information in an email list, that level of vigilance may not always be achievable in a wiki, particularly if it is open to be editable by everyone, which, btw, is also its touted strength. That said, with the volume of posts in this mailing list increasing, and with numerous repeats of similar problems posted and replied over and over again, wikis may just provide an easy compromise. /Arin Basu [[alternative HTML version deleted]] __ R-help@stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
[R] wicked wikis for R
Message: 41 Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2006 13:52:33 +1100 From: paul sorenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [R] Wikis etc. To: Frank E Harrell Jr [EMAIL PROTECTED],r-help r-help@stat.math.ethz.ch Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Frank E Harrell Jr wrote: paul sorenson wrote: I am a fan of wiki's and I reckon it would really help with making R more accessible. On one extreme you have this email list and on the other extreme you have RNews and the PDF's on CRAN. A wiki might hit the spot between them and reduce the traffic on the email list. Thanks Paul. But as long as the email list is active I fear a wiki won't be. That would be sad if that were true. They are different beasts, as would be an IRC channel. I say complementary, not mutually exclusive. A wiki takes time to reach critical mass (eg my home brew wiki http://brewiki.org/ or wikipedia) and you couldn't just pull the plug on this list without a serious impact on the uptake of R I would have thought. Contributions to the wiki from mugs like me with less R/statistics experience would hopefully make R more accessible to newbies - pointing out the traps for new players. One way to bootstrap it is to simply add a wiki menu entry into the r-project.org menu. This is what the guys over at http://wiki.wxpython.org/ have done. Over time, some of the other items there might morph in to wiki pages as appropriate. I have no doubt that if the R-Wiki was supported in the same thoughtful, thorough and patient way in which questions on R-Help are answered, it would be one of the lowest entropy wiki's around. I think that's a great idea there. In fact, wikis and this mailing list can potentially complement each other in very efficient ways. In contrast to traditional wikis (eg. wikipedia), for R we may have to figure out some kind of novel ways of automated/manual transfer of information between wikis and mailing lists going back and forth. Specific responses or groups of responses to questions from the mailing list find a way to the wikis in the form of editable topics, and wikis get updated as people start filling in. Also, a link from the mailing list or from the main R page to the Wikis could be very useful. As the mailing list grows, so does the wiki, except the information flow from the mailing list is more controlled and fine-tuned as to what goes in there and what stays in the mailing list. Among others, here's one long-term benefit for the newbies. Instead of people getting admonished/thrashed with harsh expressions/advices like go see the mailing list publishing etiquettes, or you should search the archives and help files, and read all manuals, and ask others first before posting here... (which can turn away many a newcomer from posting or using the mailing list or using R for that matter), wiki could make life a little easy for newbies/less experienced who could then receive more polite one liners like, please check the wikipages..., or solution #xyz in the wikipages for the solution. However, for an R-wiki to be a repository of robust R guidance, quality control is extremely important. While it is somewhat easier to warn and correct each other for wrong information in an email list, that level of vigilance may not always be achievable in a wiki, particularly if it is open to be editable by everyone, which, btw, is also its touted strength. That said, with the volume of posts in this mailing list increasing, and with numerous repeats of similar problems posted and replied over and over again, wikis may just provide an easy compromise. /Arin Basu [[alternative HTML version deleted]] __ R-help@stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
