Re: [racket-users] Expression context

[Matthias Felleisen]

On Sep 14, 2015, at 6:16 PM, John Carmack  wrote:

> Is there a deep reason why defines aren’t allowed in the branches of an if, 
> but are for cond / while / unless?
>  
> Wrapping code in (let() …) instead of (begin …) works fine, but it is a 
> strange quirk to explain to someone else.


It exposes our history. Traditionally there are no extra markers in LISP-style 
syntax to introduce phrases within a grammatical sentence. Thus, an 
if-expression obeys the grammar 

 (if test-expression 
 then-expression 
 else-expression)

not an Algol-style variant with additional keywords: 

 (if test-expression 
 #:then then-expression 
 #:else else-expression)

If we had those markers (not just in if-expressions but wherever we may allow 
sequences of expressions), we could mixin definitions wherever we wanted. 

In cond, it is obvious which phrase is a branch (due to the 
parentheses/brackets) and that the first part of each branch is a 
test-expression. The extra pair of parens play the role of Algol-style markers. 

Now, if Racket had emerged as an alternative attempt to address all of Lisp's 
weaknesses, we might have overcome this problem, too. But Racket grew 
organically and we value backward compatibility very highly for our 
programmers. You might say we are the C++ of the LISP world, but I hope we can 
do better in the long run. 

-- Matthias

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[racket-users] Expression context

[John Carmack]

Is there a deep reason why defines aren't allowed in the branches of an if, but 
are for cond / while / unless?

Wrapping code in (let() ...) instead of (begin ...) works fine, but it is a 
strange quirk to explain to someone else.

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Re: [racket-users] Expression context

[Leif Andersen]

> Wrapping code in (let() …) instead of (begin …) works fine, but it is a
strange quirk to explain to someone else.

This is because begin actually does not create new scope in racket, where
as (let () ...) does.

Consider the following code:

#lang racket

(define (f x)
  (begin
(define g 5))
  (+ x g))

(f 6) ; => 11

Here, g is still in scope, despite it being defined in a begin. If it was
changed to a (let () ...) then the code would error.

The reason it doesn't make sense to allow for sequencing statements in an
if block is a matter of binding. Consider the following expression:

(if #f
   (begin
  (define x 5)
  x)
   12))

(displaln x) ; ???

Should x be bound outside the if?

There are a few ways to get around this. The first would be to make if
forms create new scope in it's then and else clauses. This is what when and
unless do, and why you can use define in it. If you want to do this you
could with a macro:

(define-syntax-rule (my-if condition then else)
  (if condition (let () then) (let () else)))

(my-if #f
   (begin
 (define x 5)
 x)
   12)

Another is to use a form that creates new scope. (let () ...) does this,
but if you find (let () ...) unappealing, you can create a macro to get rid
of it.

(define-syntax-rule (new-scope . body)
  (let () . body))

(if #f
(new-scope
  (define x 5)
  x)
12)

I hope that makes it more clear why you can use let but not begin to define
variables in an if.



~Leif Andersen

On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 6:24 PM, Matthias Felleisen 
wrote:

>
> On Sep 14, 2015, at 6:16 PM, John Carmack  wrote:
>
> > Is there a deep reason why defines aren’t allowed in the branches of an
> if, but are for cond / while / unless?
> >
> > Wrapping code in (let() …) instead of (begin …) works fine, but it is a
> strange quirk to explain to someone else.
>
>
> It exposes our history. Traditionally there are no extra markers in
> LISP-style syntax to introduce phrases within a grammatical sentence. Thus,
> an if-expression obeys the grammar
>
>  (if test-expression
>  then-expression
>  else-expression)
>
> not an Algol-style variant with additional keywords:
>
>  (if test-expression
>  #:then then-expression
>  #:else else-expression)
>
> If we had those markers (not just in if-expressions but wherever we may
> allow sequences of expressions), we could mixin definitions wherever we
> wanted.
>
> In cond, it is obvious which phrase is a branch (due to the
> parentheses/brackets) and that the first part of each branch is a
> test-expression. The extra pair of parens play the role of Algol-style
> markers.
>
> Now, if Racket had emerged as an alternative attempt to address all of
> Lisp's weaknesses, we might have overcome this problem, too. But Racket
> grew organically and we value backward compatibility very highly for our
> programmers. You might say we are the C++ of the LISP world, but I hope we
> can do better in the long run.
>
> -- Matthias
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Racket Users" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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RE: [racket-users] Startup times

[John Carmack]

No strace on Android, unfortunately.

From: Marc Burns [mailto:m4bu...@uwaterloo.ca]
Sent: Monday, September 14, 2015 8:10 PM
To: John Carmack
Cc: Racket Users
Subject: Re: [racket-users] Startup times

Here’s the result of `strace -c -f -- racket -l racket/base` for Racket 6.1.1.8 
on my Linux workstation:

% time seconds  usecs/call callserrors syscall
-- --- --- - - 
 99.080.004000 571 7   nanosleep
  0.920.37   0   236   read
  0.000.00   0   10323 open
  0.000.00   079   close
…

Does it look similar on the Note 4?

On Sep 14, 2015, at 9:00 PM, Marc Burns 
> wrote:

Set the environment variable PLTSTDERR=debug to get more verbose output.

Startup involves traversing all the bytecode files that comprise the base 
environment. How fast is filesystem access on the Note 4 compared to PC? You 
could use strace to find the latency on different system calls made during 
startup.

On Sep 14, 2015, at 8:55 PM, John Carmack 
> wrote:

I am experimenting with running racket natively on Android to compare with my 
current embedded Chibi scheme implementation.  It would be convenient to just 
leave racket as a separate process and communicate over sockets/pipes so it 
exactly mimics my remote development case.

The startup time to run a trivial console program is very long.  A one line 
program with #lang racket/base takes over seven seconds:

root@trlte:/mnt/shell/emulated/0/Oculus/racket/bin # time ./racket cmdline2.rkt
cmdline2.rkt <
line 1
line 2
line 3
line 4
line 5
line 6
line 7
line 8
line 9
0m7.96s real 0m7.04s user 0m0.65s system

My first test, which still had the default #lang racket, took almost a minute 
to start:

root@trlte:/mnt/shell/emulated/0/Oculus/racket/bin # time ./racket cmdline.rkt
cmdline.rkt  <
line 1
line 2
line 3
line 4
line 5
line 6
line 7
line 8
line 9
0m54.16s real 0m48.68s user 0m4.83s system

On a PC, it only takes a fraction of a second.  This was on a Note 4, which 
should not be 100x slower than a PC.  Could it not be using the compiled 
library bytecode somehow?  I didn’t see any command line options for verbose 
output on startup, is there any way to force some extra information?


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Re: [racket-users] Startup times

[Marc Burns]

Here’s the result of `strace -c -f -- racket -l racket/base` for Racket 6.1.1.8 
on my Linux workstation:

% time seconds  usecs/call callserrors syscall
-- --- --- - - 
 99.080.004000 571 7   nanosleep
  0.920.37   0   236   read
  0.000.00   0   10323 open
  0.000.00   079   close
…

Does it look similar on the Note 4?

> On Sep 14, 2015, at 9:00 PM, Marc Burns  wrote:
> 
> Set the environment variable PLTSTDERR=debug to get more verbose output.
> 
> Startup involves traversing all the bytecode files that comprise the base 
> environment. How fast is filesystem access on the Note 4 compared to PC? You 
> could use strace to find the latency on different system calls made during 
> startup.
> 
>> On Sep 14, 2015, at 8:55 PM, John Carmack > > wrote:
>> 
>> I am experimenting with running racket natively on Android to compare with 
>> my current embedded Chibi scheme implementation.  It would be convenient to 
>> just leave racket as a separate process and communicate over sockets/pipes 
>> so it exactly mimics my remote development case.
>>  
>> The startup time to run a trivial console program is very long.  A one line 
>> program with #lang racket/base takes over seven seconds:
>>  
>> root@trlte:/mnt/shell/emulated/0/Oculus/racket/bin # time ./racket 
>> cmdline2.rkt
>> cmdline2.rkt 
>> <
>> line 1
>> line 2
>> line 3
>> line 4
>> line 5
>> line 6
>> line 7
>> line 8
>> line 9
>> 0m7.96s real 0m7.04s user 0m0.65s system
>>  
>> My first test, which still had the default #lang racket, took almost a 
>> minute to start:
>>  
>> root@trlte:/mnt/shell/emulated/0/Oculus/racket/bin # time ./racket 
>> cmdline.rkt
>> cmdline.rkt  
>> <
>> line 1
>> line 2
>> line 3
>> line 4
>> line 5
>> line 6
>> line 7
>> line 8
>> line 9
>> 0m54.16s real 0m48.68s user 0m4.83s system
>>  
>> On a PC, it only takes a fraction of a second.  This was on a Note 4, which 
>> should not be 100x slower than a PC.  Could it not be using the compiled 
>> library bytecode somehow?  I didn’t see any command line options for verbose 
>> output on startup, is there any way to force some extra information?
>>  
>> 
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "Racket Users" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
>> .
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout 
>> .
> 
> 
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Re: [racket-users] Startup times

[Matthew Flatt]

Unfortunately, `raco make` may go wrong if its own implementation is
not compiled.

You probably want `raco setup` or (equivalently) `racket -l setup`,
which should be fast if it's just a matter of updating file timestamps.

At Mon, 14 Sep 2015 20:20:39 -0500, Robby Findler wrote:
> If you run "raco make -v cmdline2.rkt" you will see output if .zo
> compilation is happening.
> 
> Robby
> 
> 
> On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 8:16 PM, John Carmack  wrote:
> > No strace on Android, unfortunately.
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Marc Burns [mailto:m4bu...@uwaterloo.ca]
> > Sent: Monday, September 14, 2015 8:10 PM
> > To: John Carmack
> > Cc: Racket Users
> > Subject: Re: [racket-users] Startup times
> >
> >
> >
> > Here’s the result of `strace -c -f -- racket -l racket/base` for Racket
> > 6.1.1.8 on my Linux workstation:
> >
> >
> >
> > % time seconds  usecs/call callserrors syscall
> >
> > -- --- --- - - 
> >
> >  99.080.004000 571 7   nanosleep
> >
> >   0.920.37   0   236   read
> >
> >   0.000.00   0   10323 open
> >
> >   0.000.00   079   close
> >
> > …
> >
> >
> >
> > Does it look similar on the Note 4?
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sep 14, 2015, at 9:00 PM, Marc Burns  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Set the environment variable PLTSTDERR=debug to get more verbose output.
> >
> >
> >
> > Startup involves traversing all the bytecode files that comprise the base
> > environment. How fast is filesystem access on the Note 4 compared to PC? You
> > could use strace to find the latency on different system calls made during
> > startup.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sep 14, 2015, at 8:55 PM, John Carmack  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > I am experimenting with running racket natively on Android to compare with
> > my current embedded Chibi scheme implementation.  It would be convenient to
> > just leave racket as a separate process and communicate over sockets/pipes
> > so it exactly mimics my remote development case.
> >
> >
> >
> > The startup time to run a trivial console program is very long.  A one line
> > program with #lang racket/base takes over seven seconds:
> >
> >
> >
> > root@trlte:/mnt/shell/emulated/0/Oculus/racket/bin # time ./racket
> > cmdline2.rkt
> >
> > cmdline2.rkt
> > <
> >
> > line 1
> >
> > line 2
> >
> > line 3
> >
> > line 4
> >
> > line 5
> >
> > line 6
> >
> > line 7
> >
> > line 8
> >
> > line 9
> >
> > 0m7.96s real 0m7.04s user 0m0.65s system
> >
> >
> >
> > My first test, which still had the default #lang racket, took almost a
> > minute to start:
> >
> >
> >
> > root@trlte:/mnt/shell/emulated/0/Oculus/racket/bin # time ./racket
> > cmdline.rkt
> >
> > cmdline.rkt
> > <
> >
> > line 1
> >
> > line 2
> >
> > line 3
> >
> > line 4
> >
> > line 5
> >
> > line 6
> >
> > line 7
> >
> > line 8
> >
> > line 9
> >
> > 0m54.16s real 0m48.68s user 0m4.83s system
> >
> >
> >
> > On a PC, it only takes a fraction of a second.  This was on a Note 4, which
> > should not be 100x slower than a PC.  Could it not be using the compiled
> > library bytecode somehow?  I didn’t see any command line options for verbose
> > output on startup, is there any way to force some extra information?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Racket Users" group.
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> > email to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
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> >
> >
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[racket-users] Should compose be so slow?

[Roman Klochkov]

(define (f1 x) (+ x 1))
(define (f2 x) (+ x 2))
(define (f3 x) (+ x 3))

(define (f* x) (f1 (f2 (f3 x
(define f-comp (compose f1 f2 f3))

(define-syntax-rule (test f)
  (time 
   (for ([i (in-range 1)])
 (f i

(test f*)
(test f-comp)

---

cpu time: 375 real time: 375 gc time: 0
cpu time: 5109 real time: 5172 gc time: 0

If try 
(define f1 (curry + 1))
(define f2 (curry + 2))
(define f3 (curry + 3))

then even worse:

cpu time: 46796 real time: 46891 gc time: 5241
cpu time: 60860 real time: 60953 gc time: 6945

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[racket-users] Startup times

[John Carmack]

I am experimenting with running racket natively on Android to compare with my 
current embedded Chibi scheme implementation.  It would be convenient to just 
leave racket as a separate process and communicate over sockets/pipes so it 
exactly mimics my remote development case.

The startup time to run a trivial console program is very long.  A one line 
program with #lang racket/base takes over seven seconds:

root@trlte:/mnt/shell/emulated/0/Oculus/racket/bin # time ./racket cmdline2.rkt
cmdline2.rkt <
line 1
line 2
line 3
line 4
line 5
line 6
line 7
line 8
line 9
0m7.96s real 0m7.04s user 0m0.65s system

My first test, which still had the default #lang racket, took almost a minute 
to start:

root@trlte:/mnt/shell/emulated/0/Oculus/racket/bin # time ./racket cmdline.rkt
cmdline.rkt  <
line 1
line 2
line 3
line 4
line 5
line 6
line 7
line 8
line 9
0m54.16s real 0m48.68s user 0m4.83s system

On a PC, it only takes a fraction of a second.  This was on a Note 4, which 
should not be 100x slower than a PC.  Could it not be using the compiled 
library bytecode somehow?  I didn't see any command line options for verbose 
output on startup, is there any way to force some extra information?

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Re: [racket-users] Expression context

[Jens Axel Søgaard]

FWIW an alternative to (let () ...) is block.

http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/block.html?q=block

2015-09-15 0:16 GMT+02:00 John Carmack :

> Is there a deep reason why defines aren’t allowed in the branches of an
> if, but are for cond / while / unless?
>
>
>
> Wrapping code in (let() …) instead of (begin …) works fine, but it is a
> strange quirk to explain to someone else.
>
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Racket Users" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
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>



-- 
-- 
Jens Axel Søgaard

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Re: [racket-users] Startup times

[Marc Burns]

Set the environment variable PLTSTDERR=debug to get more verbose output.

Startup involves traversing all the bytecode files that comprise the base 
environment. How fast is filesystem access on the Note 4 compared to PC? You 
could use strace to find the latency on different system calls made during 
startup.

> On Sep 14, 2015, at 8:55 PM, John Carmack  wrote:
> 
> I am experimenting with running racket natively on Android to compare with my 
> current embedded Chibi scheme implementation.  It would be convenient to just 
> leave racket as a separate process and communicate over sockets/pipes so it 
> exactly mimics my remote development case.
>  
> The startup time to run a trivial console program is very long.  A one line 
> program with #lang racket/base takes over seven seconds:
>  
> root@trlte:/mnt/shell/emulated/0/Oculus/racket/bin # time ./racket 
> cmdline2.rkt
> cmdline2.rkt <
> line 1
> line 2
> line 3
> line 4
> line 5
> line 6
> line 7
> line 8
> line 9
> 0m7.96s real 0m7.04s user 0m0.65s system
>  
> My first test, which still had the default #lang racket, took almost a minute 
> to start:
>  
> root@trlte:/mnt/shell/emulated/0/Oculus/racket/bin # time ./racket cmdline.rkt
> cmdline.rkt  <
> line 1
> line 2
> line 3
> line 4
> line 5
> line 6
> line 7
> line 8
> line 9
> 0m54.16s real 0m48.68s user 0m4.83s system
>  
> On a PC, it only takes a fraction of a second.  This was on a Note 4, which 
> should not be 100x slower than a PC.  Could it not be using the compiled 
> library bytecode somehow?  I didn’t see any command line options for verbose 
> output on startup, is there any way to force some extra information?
>  
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "Racket Users" group.
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> email to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
> .
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Re: [racket-users] Startup times

[Robby Findler]

If you run "raco make -v cmdline2.rkt" you will see output if .zo
compilation is happening.

Robby


On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 8:16 PM, John Carmack  wrote:
> No strace on Android, unfortunately.
>
>
>
> From: Marc Burns [mailto:m4bu...@uwaterloo.ca]
> Sent: Monday, September 14, 2015 8:10 PM
> To: John Carmack
> Cc: Racket Users
> Subject: Re: [racket-users] Startup times
>
>
>
> Here’s the result of `strace -c -f -- racket -l racket/base` for Racket
> 6.1.1.8 on my Linux workstation:
>
>
>
> % time seconds  usecs/call callserrors syscall
>
> -- --- --- - - 
>
>  99.080.004000 571 7   nanosleep
>
>   0.920.37   0   236   read
>
>   0.000.00   0   10323 open
>
>   0.000.00   079   close
>
> …
>
>
>
> Does it look similar on the Note 4?
>
>
>
> On Sep 14, 2015, at 9:00 PM, Marc Burns  wrote:
>
>
>
> Set the environment variable PLTSTDERR=debug to get more verbose output.
>
>
>
> Startup involves traversing all the bytecode files that comprise the base
> environment. How fast is filesystem access on the Note 4 compared to PC? You
> could use strace to find the latency on different system calls made during
> startup.
>
>
>
> On Sep 14, 2015, at 8:55 PM, John Carmack  wrote:
>
>
>
> I am experimenting with running racket natively on Android to compare with
> my current embedded Chibi scheme implementation.  It would be convenient to
> just leave racket as a separate process and communicate over sockets/pipes
> so it exactly mimics my remote development case.
>
>
>
> The startup time to run a trivial console program is very long.  A one line
> program with #lang racket/base takes over seven seconds:
>
>
>
> root@trlte:/mnt/shell/emulated/0/Oculus/racket/bin # time ./racket
> cmdline2.rkt
>
> cmdline2.rkt
> <
>
> line 1
>
> line 2
>
> line 3
>
> line 4
>
> line 5
>
> line 6
>
> line 7
>
> line 8
>
> line 9
>
> 0m7.96s real 0m7.04s user 0m0.65s system
>
>
>
> My first test, which still had the default #lang racket, took almost a
> minute to start:
>
>
>
> root@trlte:/mnt/shell/emulated/0/Oculus/racket/bin # time ./racket
> cmdline.rkt
>
> cmdline.rkt
> <
>
> line 1
>
> line 2
>
> line 3
>
> line 4
>
> line 5
>
> line 6
>
> line 7
>
> line 8
>
> line 9
>
> 0m54.16s real 0m48.68s user 0m4.83s system
>
>
>
> On a PC, it only takes a fraction of a second.  This was on a Note 4, which
> should not be 100x slower than a PC.  Could it not be using the compiled
> library bytecode somehow?  I didn’t see any command line options for verbose
> output on startup, is there any way to force some extra information?
>
>
>
>
>
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