Re: [racket-users] carmack s-expression tweet
On Saturday, March 28, 2015 at 12:15:39 AM UTC+1, Alexis King wrote: It might be interesting to create a binary s-expression format for more efficient reading/writing, a la BSON’s relationship to JSON. Perhaps even with some sort of optional compression. Racket’s reader is fairly complicated, though, so it might need to restrict itself to a useful subset? I think the Clojure community has built exactly what you're thinking of: https://github.com/Datomic/fressian/wiki -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Racket Users group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [racket-users] carmack s-expression tweet
FWIW the binary-class package by Roman Klochkov looks pretty nice: http://pkg-build.racket-lang.org/doc/binary-class/index.html /Jens Axel 2015-04-15 11:08 GMT+02:00 Adriaan Leijnse adriaan.leij...@gmail.com: On Saturday, March 28, 2015 at 12:15:39 AM UTC+1, Alexis King wrote: It might be interesting to create a binary s-expression format for more efficient reading/writing, a la BSON’s relationship to JSON. Perhaps even with some sort of optional compression. Racket’s reader is fairly complicated, though, so it might need to restrict itself to a useful subset? I think the Clojure community has built exactly what you're thinking of: https://github.com/Datomic/fressian/wiki -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Racket Users group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- -- Jens Axel Søgaard -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Racket Users group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[racket-users] carmack s-expression tweet
Was this a reference to a particular racket lib? And if so, which one? https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/577878167542734848 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Racket Users group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [racket-users] carmack s-expression tweet
Brian Craft wrote on 03/27/2015 03:45 PM: Was this a reference to a particular racket lib? And if so, which one? https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/577878167542734848 The `read` and `write` procedures are one way to do this. (Though you want to disable some features when you do that. Racket adds a bunch of stuff not in RnRS Scheme.) Neil V. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Racket Users group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [racket-users] carmack s-expression tweet
It might be interesting to create a binary s-expression format for more efficient reading/writing, a la BSON’s relationship to JSON. Perhaps even with some sort of optional compression. Racket’s reader is fairly complicated, though, so it might need to restrict itself to a useful subset? On Mar 27, 2015, at 16:12, John Carmack jo...@oculusvr.com wrote: On Friday, March 27, 2015 at 2:45:00 PM UTC-5, Brian Craft wrote: Was this a reference to a particular racket lib? And if so, which one? https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/577878167542734848 I have a long history of bit packing multiplayer network messages, but for this project I am just sending text s-expressions with read and write, and my life is much better. Yes, it is bulkier, but I'm sending binary VoIP data after it, so it won't dominate bandwidth, and making software easier to write and more reliable is a fine way to spend some of our wealth of resources today. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Racket Users group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Racket Users group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [racket-users] carmack s-expression tweet
Couldn't this binary s-expression just be a struct? '(move 3 5) becomes (struct move (x y) #:prefab) (move 3 5) client/server will likely have some kind of matching either way, and prefab structs can be matched (match command [(list 'move x y) ... becomes (match command [(move x y) ... On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 7:15 PM, Alexis King lexi.lam...@gmail.com wrote: It might be interesting to create a binary s-expression format for more efficient reading/writing, a la BSON’s relationship to JSON. Perhaps even with some sort of optional compression. Racket’s reader is fairly complicated, though, so it might need to restrict itself to a useful subset? On Mar 27, 2015, at 16:12, John Carmack jo...@oculusvr.com wrote: On Friday, March 27, 2015 at 2:45:00 PM UTC-5, Brian Craft wrote: Was this a reference to a particular racket lib? And if so, which one? https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/577878167542734848 I have a long history of bit packing multiplayer network messages, but for this project I am just sending text s-expressions with read and write, and my life is much better. Yes, it is bulkier, but I'm sending binary VoIP data after it, so it won't dominate bandwidth, and making software easier to write and more reliable is a fine way to spend some of our wealth of resources today. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Racket Users group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Racket Users group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Racket Users group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [racket-users] carmack s-expression tweet
Look at my original response to John's post about this... The binary format you are thinking of is racket/fasl. Jay On Friday, March 27, 2015, Sean Kanaley skana...@gmail.com wrote: Couldn't this binary s-expression just be a struct? '(move 3 5) becomes (struct move (x y) #:prefab) (move 3 5) client/server will likely have some kind of matching either way, and prefab structs can be matched (match command [(list 'move x y) ... becomes (match command [(move x y) ... On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 7:15 PM, Alexis King lexi.lam...@gmail.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','lexi.lam...@gmail.com'); wrote: It might be interesting to create a binary s-expression format for more efficient reading/writing, a la BSON’s relationship to JSON. Perhaps even with some sort of optional compression. Racket’s reader is fairly complicated, though, so it might need to restrict itself to a useful subset? On Mar 27, 2015, at 16:12, John Carmack jo...@oculusvr.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','jo...@oculusvr.com'); wrote: On Friday, March 27, 2015 at 2:45:00 PM UTC-5, Brian Craft wrote: Was this a reference to a particular racket lib? And if so, which one? https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/577878167542734848 I have a long history of bit packing multiplayer network messages, but for this project I am just sending text s-expressions with read and write, and my life is much better. Yes, it is bulkier, but I'm sending binary VoIP data after it, so it won't dominate bandwidth, and making software easier to write and more reliable is a fine way to spend some of our wealth of resources today. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Racket Users group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','racket-users%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com'); . For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Racket Users group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','racket-users%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com'); . For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Racket Users group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','racket-users%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com'); . For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- Jay McCarthy http://jeapostrophe.github.io Wherefore, be not weary in well-doing, for ye are laying the foundation of a great work. And out of small things proceedeth that which is great. - DC 64:33 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Racket Users group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [racket-users] carmack s-expression tweet
Oh, very neat... racket/fasl was precisely the sort of thing I was thinking of. On Mar 27, 2015, at 17:26, Jay McCarthy jay.mccar...@gmail.com wrote: Look at my original response to John's post about this... The binary format you are thinking of is racket/fasl. Jay On Friday, March 27, 2015, Sean Kanaley skana...@gmail.com mailto:skana...@gmail.com wrote: Couldn't this binary s-expression just be a struct? '(move 3 5) becomes (struct move (x y) #:prefab) (move 3 5) client/server will likely have some kind of matching either way, and prefab structs can be matched (match command [(list 'move x y) ... becomes (match command [(move x y) ... On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 7:15 PM, Alexis King lexi.lam...@gmail.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','lexi.lam...@gmail.com'); wrote: It might be interesting to create a binary s-expression format for more efficient reading/writing, a la BSON’s relationship to JSON. Perhaps even with some sort of optional compression. Racket’s reader is fairly complicated, though, so it might need to restrict itself to a useful subset? On Mar 27, 2015, at 16:12, John Carmack jo...@oculusvr.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','jo...@oculusvr.com'); wrote: On Friday, March 27, 2015 at 2:45:00 PM UTC-5, Brian Craft wrote: Was this a reference to a particular racket lib? And if so, which one? https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/577878167542734848 https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/577878167542734848 I have a long history of bit packing multiplayer network messages, but for this project I am just sending text s-expressions with read and write, and my life is much better. Yes, it is bulkier, but I'm sending binary VoIP data after it, so it won't dominate bandwidth, and making software easier to write and more reliable is a fine way to spend some of our wealth of resources today. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Racket Users group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','racket-users%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com');. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Racket Users group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','racket-users%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com');. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Racket Users group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','racket-users%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com');. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- Jay McCarthy http://jeapostrophe.github.io http://jeapostrophe.github.io/ Wherefore, be not weary in well-doing, for ye are laying the foundation of a great work. And out of small things proceedeth that which is great. - DC 64:33 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Racket Users group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [racket-users] carmack s-expression tweet
Just comenting only on Alexis's suggestion here, since sounds like John is happy with sexps for now. I don't see how `racket/fasl` is suitable for heterogeneous interop, which is a very common case needing this, perhaps the most common. Spec-wise, `racket/fasl` is not defined, beyond that it can be shared between instances of the same Racket version. This FASL is fine for writing out compiled code files that are already specific to Racket version, or perhaps IPC or stored serialization when you're certain that the same Racket version will be used to write and read. Everything else I can think of, you want an open spec. You could make simple *specified* sexp serialization that is stable between Racket versions and can also be implemented independent of Racket (e.g., write type tag byte according to spec, write byte(s) prefixes for length of variable-length objects, possibly references to pre-shared strings/symbols, and possibly do some kind of string table compression as you go, etc.). There's also always off-the-shelf specs, like Google protobufs. Protobufs are overkill for most purposes, and can be unnecessarily cumbersome/bureaucratic to work with, but are available, with lots of implementations. Neil V. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Racket Users group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [racket-users] carmack s-expression tweet
Hmm, yes, on closer inspection, I see that you’re right. It’s not worthless, but it’s definitely not ideal for actually using as a communication protocol. So I guess my original point still stands: having a consistent binary encoding for s-expressions could be nice. On Mar 27, 2015, at 18:10, Neil Van Dyke n...@neilvandyke.org wrote: Just comenting only on Alexis's suggestion here, since sounds like John is happy with sexps for now. I don't see how `racket/fasl` is suitable for heterogeneous interop, which is a very common case needing this, perhaps the most common. Spec-wise, `racket/fasl` is not defined, beyond that it can be shared between instances of the same Racket version. This FASL is fine for writing out compiled code files that are already specific to Racket version, or perhaps IPC or stored serialization when you're certain that the same Racket version will be used to write and read. Everything else I can think of, you want an open spec. You could make simple *specified* sexp serialization that is stable between Racket versions and can also be implemented independent of Racket (e.g., write type tag byte according to spec, write byte(s) prefixes for length of variable-length objects, possibly references to pre-shared strings/symbols, and possibly do some kind of string table compression as you go, etc.). There's also always off-the-shelf specs, like Google protobufs. Protobufs are overkill for most purposes, and can be unnecessarily cumbersome/bureaucratic to work with, but are available, with lots of implementations. Neil V. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Racket Users group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Racket Users group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [racket-users] carmack s-expression tweet
Oh, very neat... racket/fasl was precisely the sort of thing I was thinking of. On Mar 27, 2015, at 17:26, Jay McCarthy jay.mccar...@gmail.com wrote: Look at my original response to John's post about this... The binary format you are thinking of is racket/fasl. Jay On Friday, March 27, 2015, Sean Kanaley skana...@gmail.com mailto:skana...@gmail.com wrote: Couldn't this binary s-expression just be a struct? '(move 3 5) becomes (struct move (x y) #:prefab) (move 3 5) client/server will likely have some kind of matching either way, and prefab structs can be matched (match command [(list 'move x y) ... becomes (match command [(move x y) ... On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 7:15 PM, Alexis King lexi.lam...@gmail.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','lexi.lam...@gmail.com'); wrote: It might be interesting to create a binary s-expression format for more efficient reading/writing, a la BSON’s relationship to JSON. Perhaps even with some sort of optional compression. Racket’s reader is fairly complicated, though, so it might need to restrict itself to a useful subset? On Mar 27, 2015, at 16:12, John Carmack jo...@oculusvr.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','jo...@oculusvr.com'); wrote: On Friday, March 27, 2015 at 2:45:00 PM UTC-5, Brian Craft wrote: Was this a reference to a particular racket lib? And if so, which one? https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/577878167542734848 https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/577878167542734848 I have a long history of bit packing multiplayer network messages, but for this project I am just sending text s-expressions with read and write, and my life is much better. Yes, it is bulkier, but I'm sending binary VoIP data after it, so it won't dominate bandwidth, and making software easier to write and more reliable is a fine way to spend some of our wealth of resources today. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Racket Users group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','racket-users%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com');. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Racket Users group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','racket-users%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com');. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Racket Users group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','racket-users%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com');. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- Jay McCarthy http://jeapostrophe.github.io http://jeapostrophe.github.io/ Wherefore, be not weary in well-doing, for ye are laying the foundation of a great work. And out of small things proceedeth that which is great. - DC 64:33 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Racket Users group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
