date:20150220

I would do that if the box elves at Riv then did their box art drawings on it 
in black wet paint or before a clear coat. 

-J

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[RBW] Re: Paul Brakes -- Wow!

Deacon,

I am glad that you were able get your brakes to work the way you want. I 
suspect you were told the opposite of what I am telling you, and that you 
understood what they were saying. Sadly they told you wrong. But happily 
they still steered you to something that worked for you.

The phrase slushy brakes suggests to me low effort producing large brake 
lever travel with little braking effect. If that's what you had it was 
likely due to elasticity in the brake system, which is a separate thing 
from leverage. If you experience that sort of thing, look for what moves 
when you squeeze the lever hard after the pads hit the rim. For example, I 
found the steel front cable hangers flex a lot. Replacing mine with the 
aluminum ones improved the feel of my brakes significantly. Cables that 
change shape as the brakes are applied can be another source of excess 
travel.


On Friday, February 20, 2015 at 4:21:44 AM UTC-8, Deacon Patrick wrote:

 Ted, et al engineer types: I happily bow to your knowledge on the angles 
 and leverage, though I was told the opposite (as I understood it) before I 
 made the change. Interestingly, either way, the experience went from slushy 
 brakes (short saddle cable,  90˚ intersection with the brake arm) and 
 salmon pads, to passable strength except in single track steep descents 
 (long saddle cable, close to 90˚ intersection with the brake arm). But that 
 point is mute now, as the Paul's are wonderful! I look forward to snow-free 
 trails so I can try them out!

 With abandon,
 Patrick


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[RBW] Re: Walnut Creek Things to Do

2015-02-20 Thread Kieran J

WC = SMAFU Danger Zone Ground Zero


On Friday, February 20, 2015 at 4:00:26 PM UTC-5, Bill Lindsay wrote:

 SMAFU

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Re: [RBW] Re: Paul Brakes -- Wow!

Deacon,

I agree with you on this. Getting the straddle as close to 90 degrees has
always been the position which yielded the greatest stopping power for me.
With my neo-retro's (Aka the 'weaker' of the paul canti's) I have the cable
long and up high, and I have enough power to lift up the back wheel if I
really wanted.

Lower straddle usually results in less power, and obviously less mud
clearance as well.

As I understand it, the idea is to get the cable as close to 90 degrees as
you can WHEN the brakes are in contact with the rim.

To read a much more exhaustive explanation than I'm willing to regurgitate,
take a look at BQ's great write-up on setting up canti's.

In the end, I'm sure we can all agree that Paul canti's are awesome.

On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 4:18 PM, ted ted.ke...@comcast.net wrote:

 Deacon,

 I am glad that you were able get your brakes to work the way you want. I
 suspect you were told the opposite of what I am telling you, and that you
 understood what they were saying. Sadly they told you wrong. But happily
 they still steered you to something that worked for you.

 The phrase slushy brakes suggests to me low effort producing large brake
 lever travel with little braking effect. If that's what you had it was
 likely due to elasticity in the brake system, which is a separate thing
 from leverage. If you experience that sort of thing, look for what moves
 when you squeeze the lever hard after the pads hit the rim. For example, I
 found the steel front cable hangers flex a lot. Replacing mine with the
 aluminum ones improved the feel of my brakes significantly. Cables that
 change shape as the brakes are applied can be another source of excess
 travel.


 On Friday, February 20, 2015 at 4:21:44 AM UTC-8, Deacon Patrick wrote:

 Ted, et al engineer types: I happily bow to your knowledge on the angles
 and leverage, though I was told the opposite (as I understood it) before I
 made the change. Interestingly, either way, the experience went from slushy
 brakes (short saddle cable,  90˚ intersection with the brake arm) and
 salmon pads, to passable strength except in single track steep descents
 (long saddle cable, close to 90˚ intersection with the brake arm). But that
 point is mute now, as the Paul's are wonderful! I look forward to snow-free
 trails so I can try them out!

 With abandon,
 Patrick

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Re: [RBW] Re: Paul Brakes -- Wow!

Ok. I'm out of my element. Going riding [?]

On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 4:52 PM, ted ted.ke...@comcast.net wrote:

 Mark,

 From the BQ writeup you cite

 The angle of the straddle cable also af- fects the mechanical advantage. A
 low straddle cable means that the pads travel less for a given brake lever
 pull. Less travel means more power.
 and

 Unless the straddle cable is at a right angle to the brake arm, the
 effective length of the brake arm is shortened, which in turn reduces the
 braking power.

 The first is pretty straight forward, but the second overlooks the fact
 that, for a given brake, the tension in the cable changes when you change
 the angle. As you raise the angle towards 90 you reduce the tension which
 counteracts the increase in effective length.
 I think its much simpler to work out if you decompose the cable tension
 into vertical and horizontal components and stay away from notions like
 effective length.

 On Friday, February 20, 2015 at 2:25:28 PM UTC-8, Mark Reimer wrote:

 Deacon,

 I agree with you on this. Getting the straddle as close to 90 degrees has
 always been the position which yielded the greatest stopping power for me.
 With my neo-retro's (Aka the 'weaker' of the paul canti's) I have the cable
 long and up high, and I have enough power to lift up the back wheel if I
 really wanted.

 Lower straddle usually results in less power, and obviously less mud
 clearance as well.

 As I understand it, the idea is to get the cable as close to 90 degrees
 as you can WHEN the brakes are in contact with the rim.

 To read a much more exhaustive explanation than I'm willing to
 regurgitate, take a look at BQ's great write-up on setting up canti's.

 In the end, I'm sure we can all agree that Paul canti's are awesome.

 On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 4:18 PM, ted ted@comcast.net wrote:

 Deacon,

 I am glad that you were able get your brakes to work the way you want. I
 suspect you were told the opposite of what I am telling you, and that you
 understood what they were saying. Sadly they told you wrong. But happily
 they still steered you to something that worked for you.

 The phrase slushy brakes suggests to me low effort producing large
 brake lever travel with little braking effect. If that's what you had it
 was likely due to elasticity in the brake system, which is a separate thing
 from leverage. If you experience that sort of thing, look for what moves
 when you squeeze the lever hard after the pads hit the rim. For example, I
 found the steel front cable hangers flex a lot. Replacing mine with the
 aluminum ones improved the feel of my brakes significantly. Cables that
 change shape as the brakes are applied can be another source of excess
 travel.


 On Friday, February 20, 2015 at 4:21:44 AM UTC-8, Deacon Patrick wrote:

 Ted, et al engineer types: I happily bow to your knowledge on the
 angles and leverage, though I was told the opposite (as I understood it)
 before I made the change. Interestingly, either way, the experience went
 from slushy brakes (short saddle cable,  90˚ intersection with the brake
 arm) and salmon pads, to passable strength except in single track steep
 descents (long saddle cable, close to 90˚ intersection with the brake arm).
 But that point is mute now, as the Paul's are wonderful! I look forward to
 snow-free trails so I can try them out!

 With abandon,
 Patrick

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[RBW] Re: Walnut Creek Things to Do

2015-02-20 Thread Kieran J

A quick 3000' elevation gain mixed-terrain ride?
;-)


On Friday, February 20, 2015 at 3:30:24 PM UTC-5, Minh wrote:

 So i'm going to be in Walnut Creek for 24 hours next week.  Is there a 
 things to do while in Walnut Creek post?  With all of the love, and 
 frequent visits to RBWHQ or RBBH i'm surprised that these isn't a things to 
 do in Walnut Creek while visiting Rivendell!

 I'll admit the few times i have visited RBWHQ it's been in and out, but 
 this time i'm spending the night there.  My only plan at the moment is to 
 stop by BBH on my evening jog.  Does anyone have any recommendations for 
 things to do?  What about a dinner or breakfast suggestion?  

 I sense a sticky, i can't be the first out-of-towner who thought of this!




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Re: [RBW] Re: Paul Brakes -- Wow!

always the best plan

On Friday, February 20, 2015 at 2:54:52 PM UTC-8, Mark Reimer wrote:

 Ok. I'm out of my element. Going riding 

 On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 4:52 PM, ted ted@comcast.net javascript: 
 wrote:

 Mark,

 From the BQ writeup you cite

 The angle of the straddle cable also af- fects the mechanical advantage. 
 A low straddle cable means that the pads travel less for a given brake 
 lever pull. Less travel means more power.
 and

 Unless the straddle cable is at a right angle to the brake arm, the 
 effective length of the brake arm is shortened, which in turn reduces the 
 braking power.

 The first is pretty straight forward, but the second overlooks the fact 
 that, for a given brake, the tension in the cable changes when you change 
 the angle. As you raise the angle towards 90 you reduce the tension which 
 counteracts the increase in effective length.
 I think its much simpler to work out if you decompose the cable tension 
 into vertical and horizontal components and stay away from notions like 
 effective length. 

 On Friday, February 20, 2015 at 2:25:28 PM UTC-8, Mark Reimer wrote:

 Deacon,

 I agree with you on this. Getting the straddle as close to 90 degrees 
 has always been the position which yielded the greatest stopping power for 
 me. With my neo-retro's (Aka the 'weaker' of the paul canti's) I have the 
 cable long and up high, and I have enough power to lift up the back wheel 
 if I really wanted. 

 Lower straddle usually results in less power, and obviously less mud 
 clearance as well. 

 As I understand it, the idea is to get the cable as close to 90 degrees 
 as you can WHEN the brakes are in contact with the rim. 

 To read a much more exhaustive explanation than I'm willing to 
 regurgitate, take a look at BQ's great write-up on setting up canti's. 

 In the end, I'm sure we can all agree that Paul canti's are awesome. 

 On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 4:18 PM, ted ted@comcast.net wrote:

 Deacon,

 I am glad that you were able get your brakes to work the way you want. 
 I suspect you were told the opposite of what I am telling you, and that 
 you 
 understood what they were saying. Sadly they told you wrong. But happily 
 they still steered you to something that worked for you.

 The phrase slushy brakes suggests to me low effort producing large 
 brake lever travel with little braking effect. If that's what you had it 
 was likely due to elasticity in the brake system, which is a separate 
 thing 
 from leverage. If you experience that sort of thing, look for what moves 
 when you squeeze the lever hard after the pads hit the rim. For example, I 
 found the steel front cable hangers flex a lot. Replacing mine with the 
 aluminum ones improved the feel of my brakes significantly. Cables that 
 change shape as the brakes are applied can be another source of excess 
 travel.


 On Friday, February 20, 2015 at 4:21:44 AM UTC-8, Deacon Patrick wrote:

 Ted, et al engineer types: I happily bow to your knowledge on the 
 angles and leverage, though I was told the opposite (as I understood it) 
 before I made the change. Interestingly, either way, the experience went 
 from slushy brakes (short saddle cable,  90˚ intersection with the brake 
 arm) and salmon pads, to passable strength except in single track steep 
 descents (long saddle cable, close to 90˚ intersection with the brake 
 arm). 
 But that point is mute now, as the Paul's are wonderful! I look forward 
 to 
 snow-free trails so I can try them out!

 With abandon,
 Patrick

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Re: [RBW] Looking for North Coast beta: Lost Coast loop

2015-02-20 Thread Curtis McKenzie

Neil,

I think you are describing the loop we did last summer.  Here is a link to
some pictures:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/97010676@N07/sets/72157646229579206/

A fun ride.

Curtis

On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 11:51 AM, Neil neil.h.do...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hey all -  a couple pals and I intend to ride the Tour of the Unknown
 Coast route over 3 days in late May. I'm looking for any info on camping
 and supplies, and any don't-miss spots along the way. We're taking 3 days/2
 nights to ride about 100 miles, so we'll have lots of time for side-trips
 and general corn-doggin'. Any and all recomendos and advice welcome!

 Cheers,

 Neil


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Re: [RBW] Re: Paul Brakes -- Wow!

2015-02-20 Thread 'clayton bailey' via RBW Owners Bunch

I learned this over 20 years plus of using and working on cantilever brakes. I 
set up brakes for mountain bike race teams in the late 80's and early 90's. I 
am sorry, but your armchair theory does not translate to real bikes in my 
experience. I run canti's on my Crux. The greatest feel and max leverage is at 
90 degrees. 

 On Friday, February 20, 2015 2:34 PM, ted ted.ke...@comcast.net wrote:
   

 Clayton,
Your reasoning is mostly wrong, and your stick analogy does not apply.I think 
you are forgetting that the straddle wire provides mechanical advantage. A 
small side force on  a relatively straight cable produces a large tension in 
the cable. In theory, if the cable is straight the leverage is infinite. If you 
correctly analyze any cantilever brake setup you will find that making the 
straddle wire flatter increases the net leverage. Unless of course the cable 
attachment point is at or below the pivot, but I don't think anybody makes 
brakes like that.

On Friday, February 20, 2015 at 10:26:03 AM UTC-8, Clayton wrote:
I have to jump in here.. I have always been taught and discovered on my own, 
that the straddle cable should be as close to perpendicular, or at 90 degrees, 
to the center of the brake pad lever when it hits the rim. You can do this 
experiment on your own. Get a stick. Tie a string to it. Lay the stick on the 
ground and lift the string. Lift perpendicularly and then from different acute 
angles, inline with the stick. If you lift from acute angles, the stick slides, 
which is energy wasted. If you set up your brakes with a too short straddle 
cable, you lose feel and the leverage forces change as you apply the brakes. 
Starts out soft and weak, and increases as you apply the brakes because the 
angle gets closer to 90 degrees. Over 90 degrees, and you get weak brakes. The 
brake arm is just a lever. It works best, like all levers if you lift from the 
end at 90 degrees. The brake arm pivot placement is basic too. Long arm on the 
straddle cable side, shorter arm on the rim side. It does not matter at all 
when it comes to straddle cable length. The only lever the straddle cable acts 
on is the long side. The distance between the pivot and rim, and pivot and 
straddle cable angle is fixed and you can't change it. After 20 years plus of 
running cantilevers and being a mechanic for YETI cycles back in the heyday, a 
shop manager and mechanic, I finally gave up.  I run V-brakes now, which are 
much more powerful, especially with long Cool Stop salmon pads. Braking is at 
near disc power. I can easily do a nose wheelie, using brake power alone. The 
feel is so good, I can anti-lock brake the front. Apply, feel it start to 
slide, let loose and rebrake. The only thing I don't like and it is very minor, 
is the hood shape on the Cane Creek Road V-brake levers.  There is far more 
clearance with panniers and I don't poke my calf anymore. Everyone here loves 
their cantilevers. They are prettier and match the aesthetic of Rivendell. I 
get that, but for me the superiority of V-brakes has become beautiful in 
itself. 

On Thursday, February 19, 2015 at 7:33:03 PM UTC-8, ted wrote:
Deacon,
The thing is, that definitely does not increase the leverage. 
The the vertical component of the tension in the straddle cable is equal to the 
tension in the brake cable (well half on each side).Lengthening the straddle 
cable reduces the tension in it as well as changing the angle at which it meets 
the brake arm. The vertical component of the tension stays the same, and the 
horizontal component is decreased.The net result is less torque around the 
brake post for a given force on the brake lever.For a wide profile brake like 
the 720, where the end of the arm is barely above the pivot, the decrease in 
leverage is relatively small. But it is a decrease, not an increase. To get an 
increase in leverage by lengthening the straddle cable the end of the brake arm 
would have to be below the pivot.
Again I'm not claiming that the longer straddle cable didn't work better for 
you, just that the cause of the better can't have been increased leverage.

On Thursday, February 19, 2015 at 6:56:40 PM UTC-8, Deacon Patrick wrote:
Kellie, I went with touring in the back because I got them used and that's the 
set up that was available. It's a set up common to folks who want the most 
power for the front brake, and clearance for panniers in the rear.
Ted, lengthening the saddle cable make the angle of the brake cable to the 
brake arm closer to 90˚, and that definitely increased leverage. Here's what it 
looked like:https://www.flickr.com/photos/ 32311885@N07/14450777149/in/ 
set-72157645649878184

With abandon,Patrick


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[RBW] Walnut Creek Things to Do

2015-02-20 Thread Minh

So i'm going to be in Walnut Creek for 24 hours next week.  Is there a 
things to do while in Walnut Creek post?  With all of the love, and 
frequent visits to RBWHQ or RBBH i'm surprised that these isn't a things to 
do in Walnut Creek while visiting Rivendell!

I'll admit the few times i have visited RBWHQ it's been in and out, but 
this time i'm spending the night there.  My only plan at the moment is to 
stop by BBH on my evening jog.  Does anyone have any recommendations for 
things to do?  What about a dinner or breakfast suggestion?  

I sense a sticky, i can't be the first out-of-towner who thought of this!


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[RBW] Re: Paul Brakes -- Wow!

2015-02-20 Thread Tom Harrop

I'm also pro V-brake but they just don't work with 60 mm tyres and fenders. 
It's gotta be cantis for me!

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[RBW] FS: Joe Bell painted lugged frame - 62.5cm

I wonder what GP would think if a Riv got repainted like that...

-J

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[RBW] Re: Paul Brakes -- Wow!

Clayton,

Your reasoning is mostly wrong, and your stick analogy does not apply.
I think you are forgetting that the straddle wire provides mechanical 
advantage. A small side force on  a relatively straight cable produces a 
large tension in the cable. In theory, if the cable is straight the 
leverage is infinite. If you correctly analyze any cantilever brake setup 
you will find that making the straddle wire flatter increases the net 
leverage. Unless of course the cable attachment point is at or below the 
pivot, but I don't think anybody makes brakes like that.


On Friday, February 20, 2015 at 10:26:03 AM UTC-8, Clayton wrote:

 I have to jump in here.. I have always been taught and discovered on my 
 own, that the straddle cable should be as close to perpendicular, or at 90 
 degrees, to the center of the brake pad lever *when it hits the rim*. 
 You can do this experiment on your own. Get a stick. Tie a string to it. 
 Lay the stick on the ground and lift the string. Lift perpendicularly and 
 then from different acute angles, inline with the stick. If you lift from 
 acute angles, the stick slides, which is energy wasted. If you set up your 
 brakes with a too short straddle cable, you lose feel and the leverage 
 forces change as you apply the brakes. Starts out soft and weak, and 
 increases as you apply the brakes because the angle gets closer to 90 
 degrees. Over 90 degrees, and you get weak brakes. The brake arm is just a 
 lever. It works best, like all levers if you lift from the end at 90 
 degrees. The brake arm pivot placement is basic too. Long arm on the 
 straddle cable side, shorter arm on the rim side. It does not matter at all 
 when it comes to straddle cable length. The only lever the straddle cable 
 acts on is the long side. The distance between the pivot and rim, and pivot 
 and straddle cable angle is fixed and you can't change it. After 20 years 
 plus of running cantilevers and being a mechanic for YETI cycles back in 
 the heyday, a shop manager and mechanic, I finally gave up.  I run V-brakes 
 now, which are much more powerful, especially with long Cool Stop salmon 
 pads. Braking is at near disc power. I can easily do a nose wheelie, using 
 brake power alone. The feel is so good, I can anti-lock brake the front. 
 Apply, feel it start to slide, let loose and rebrake. The only thing I 
 don't like and it is very minor, is the hood shape on the Cane Creek Road 
 V-brake levers.  There is far more clearance with panniers and I don't poke 
 my calf anymore. Everyone here loves their cantilevers. They are prettier 
 and match the aesthetic of Rivendell. I get that, but for me the 
 superiority of V-brakes has become beautiful in itself. 

 On Thursday, February 19, 2015 at 7:33:03 PM UTC-8, ted wrote:

 Deacon,

 The thing is, that definitely does not increase the leverage. 

 The the vertical component of the tension in the straddle cable is equal 
 to the tension in the brake cable (well half on each side).
 Lengthening the straddle cable reduces the tension in it as well as 
 changing the angle at which it meets the brake arm. The vertical component 
 of the tension stays the same, and the horizontal component is decreased.
 The net result is less torque around the brake post for a given force on 
 the brake lever.
 For a wide profile brake like the 720, where the end of the arm is barely 
 above the pivot, the decrease in leverage is relatively small. But it is a 
 decrease, not an increase. To get an increase in leverage by lengthening 
 the straddle cable the end of the brake arm would have to be below the 
 pivot.

 Again I'm not claiming that the longer straddle cable didn't work better 
 for you, just that the cause of the better can't have been increased 
 leverage.


 On Thursday, February 19, 2015 at 6:56:40 PM UTC-8, Deacon Patrick wrote:

 Kellie, I went with touring in the back because I got them used and 
 that's the set up that was available. It's a set up common to folks who 
 want the most power for the front brake, and clearance for panniers in the 
 rear.

 Ted, lengthening the saddle cable make the angle of the brake cable to 
 the brake arm closer to 90˚, and that definitely increased leverage. Here's 
 what it looked like:

 https://www.flickr.com/photos/32311885@N07/14450777149/in/set-72157645649878184

 With abandon,
 Patrick



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Re: [RBW] Re: Paul Brakes -- Wow!

Mark,

From the BQ writeup you cite

The angle of the straddle cable also af- fects the mechanical advantage. A 
low straddle cable means that the pads travel less for a given brake lever 
pull. Less travel means more power.
and

Unless the straddle cable is at a right angle to the brake arm, the 
effective length of the brake arm is shortened, which in turn reduces the 
braking power.

The first is pretty straight forward, but the second overlooks the fact 
that, for a given brake, the tension in the cable changes when you change 
the angle. As you raise the angle towards 90 you reduce the tension which 
counteracts the increase in effective length.
I think its much simpler to work out if you decompose the cable tension 
into vertical and horizontal components and stay away from notions like 
effective length. 

On Friday, February 20, 2015 at 2:25:28 PM UTC-8, Mark Reimer wrote:

 Deacon,

 I agree with you on this. Getting the straddle as close to 90 degrees has 
 always been the position which yielded the greatest stopping power for me. 
 With my neo-retro's (Aka the 'weaker' of the paul canti's) I have the cable 
 long and up high, and I have enough power to lift up the back wheel if I 
 really wanted. 

 Lower straddle usually results in less power, and obviously less mud 
 clearance as well. 

 As I understand it, the idea is to get the cable as close to 90 degrees as 
 you can WHEN the brakes are in contact with the rim. 

 To read a much more exhaustive explanation than I'm willing to 
 regurgitate, take a look at BQ's great write-up on setting up canti's. 

 In the end, I'm sure we can all agree that Paul canti's are awesome. 

 On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 4:18 PM, ted ted@comcast.net javascript: 
 wrote:

 Deacon,

 I am glad that you were able get your brakes to work the way you want. I 
 suspect you were told the opposite of what I am telling you, and that you 
 understood what they were saying. Sadly they told you wrong. But happily 
 they still steered you to something that worked for you.

 The phrase slushy brakes suggests to me low effort producing large 
 brake lever travel with little braking effect. If that's what you had it 
 was likely due to elasticity in the brake system, which is a separate thing 
 from leverage. If you experience that sort of thing, look for what moves 
 when you squeeze the lever hard after the pads hit the rim. For example, I 
 found the steel front cable hangers flex a lot. Replacing mine with the 
 aluminum ones improved the feel of my brakes significantly. Cables that 
 change shape as the brakes are applied can be another source of excess 
 travel.


 On Friday, February 20, 2015 at 4:21:44 AM UTC-8, Deacon Patrick wrote:

 Ted, et al engineer types: I happily bow to your knowledge on the angles 
 and leverage, though I was told the opposite (as I understood it) before I 
 made the change. Interestingly, either way, the experience went from slushy 
 brakes (short saddle cable,  90˚ intersection with the brake arm) and 
 salmon pads, to passable strength except in single track steep descents 
 (long saddle cable, close to 90˚ intersection with the brake arm). But that 
 point is mute now, as the Paul's are wonderful! I look forward to snow-free 
 trails so I can try them out!

 With abandon,
 Patrick

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Re: [RBW] Re: Velo News on Bike Weight

SPLATTER PAINT MTB STYLE

-J

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Re: [RBW] Re: Paul Brakes -- Wow!

Oops, here's the BQ article:

http://www.bikequarterly.com/images/BQCantiSetup.pdf

On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 4:25 PM, Mark Reimer marknrei...@gmail.com wrote:

 Deacon,

 I agree with you on this. Getting the straddle as close to 90 degrees has
 always been the position which yielded the greatest stopping power for me.
 With my neo-retro's (Aka the 'weaker' of the paul canti's) I have the cable
 long and up high, and I have enough power to lift up the back wheel if I
 really wanted.

 Lower straddle usually results in less power, and obviously less mud
 clearance as well.

 As I understand it, the idea is to get the cable as close to 90 degrees as
 you can WHEN the brakes are in contact with the rim.

 To read a much more exhaustive explanation than I'm willing to
 regurgitate, take a look at BQ's great write-up on setting up canti's.

 In the end, I'm sure we can all agree that Paul canti's are awesome.

 On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 4:18 PM, ted ted.ke...@comcast.net wrote:

 Deacon,

 I am glad that you were able get your brakes to work the way you want. I
 suspect you were told the opposite of what I am telling you, and that you
 understood what they were saying. Sadly they told you wrong. But happily
 they still steered you to something that worked for you.

 The phrase slushy brakes suggests to me low effort producing large
 brake lever travel with little braking effect. If that's what you had it
 was likely due to elasticity in the brake system, which is a separate thing
 from leverage. If you experience that sort of thing, look for what moves
 when you squeeze the lever hard after the pads hit the rim. For example, I
 found the steel front cable hangers flex a lot. Replacing mine with the
 aluminum ones improved the feel of my brakes significantly. Cables that
 change shape as the brakes are applied can be another source of excess
 travel.


 On Friday, February 20, 2015 at 4:21:44 AM UTC-8, Deacon Patrick wrote:

 Ted, et al engineer types: I happily bow to your knowledge on the angles
 and leverage, though I was told the opposite (as I understood it) before I
 made the change. Interestingly, either way, the experience went from slushy
 brakes (short saddle cable,  90˚ intersection with the brake arm) and
 salmon pads, to passable strength except in single track steep descents
 (long saddle cable, close to 90˚ intersection with the brake arm). But that
 point is mute now, as the Paul's are wonderful! I look forward to snow-free
 trails so I can try them out!

 With abandon,
 Patrick

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[RBW] Re: Paul Brakes -- Wow!

2015-02-20 Thread Philip Williamson

It's good for big-foot heel clearance, too. I have Tektro 720s on the front 
of my Quickbeam, and the original low-profile brakes on the rear. The rear 
CR720s hit my foot sometimes, so I switched that brake back to stock. 
I'd call the CR720s pretty (I like the look more than the Pauls), and 
adequate with a high straddle carrier and Kool Stop pads. I'd do Patrick's 
Paul setup, but I gathered from list eavesdropping that it's hard to make 
the M12 rack work with them. And I love that rack. 

Philip
www.biketinker.com

On Thursday, February 19, 2015 at 6:56:40 PM UTC-8, Deacon Patrick wrote:

 Kellie, I went with touring in the back because I got them used and that's 
 the set up that was available. It's a set up common to folks who want the 
 most power for the front brake, and clearance for panniers in the rear.

 Ted, lengthening the saddle cable make the angle of the brake cable to the 
 brake arm closer to 90˚, and that definitely increased leverage. Here's 
 what it looked like:

 https://www.flickr.com/photos/32311885@N07/14450777149/in/set-72157645649878184

 With abandon,
 Patrick


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Re: [RBW] Grant Petersen's views on mountain bike development?

2015-02-20 Thread Aaron Young

Went out for some real mountain biking yesterday morning.  Challenging
single cross with lots of climbing (and walking for me). (Trail info:
http://rideoregonride.com/mountain-biking/syncline-trail/).  I rode my Koga
Miyata Valley Runner (early 90's rigid mtn) with albatross bars and
barcons.  Also, I had a Hobo handlebar bag and tires were the Compass 26 x
1.75 (Pasela style tread pattern).   In general, I love riding this bike,
but it was way out of its element on this terrain.  Climbing was easier
with hands forward on the bars rather than at the grips, but then I didn't
have access to shifting and brakes, which in tricky terrain like this is
essential.  I often bumped the barcon with my knee and was quickly cursing
bar-ends for tricky terrain.

This bike in its current set up is great for dirt roads, fire trails, and
cruising around, but it's no mountain bike.  Knobby tires would certainly
improve things quickly, but the Albatross bars aren't great for real
mountain biking, at least for me.  And the bar ends weren't working well
either.  For real mountain biking I would much prefer a bullmoose style
flat bar or at least a Moustache or Albastache to get my hands further
forward to help with climbing while maintaining easy access to the brakes
if not the shift levers.  So based on my experience I agree with Mike about
the handlebars at least.

I still had a great time.  And here's some pictures of the beautiful
Columbia River Gorge where this experiment took place:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/sk8_or_die/sets/72157650523902289/

Aaron Young
The Dalles, OR



On Wednesday, February 18, 2015, 'Chris Lampe 2' via RBW Owners Bunch 
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com wrote:

 Head angles starting tightning up with the 2nd MTB built, literally.  Joe
 Breeze has stated that Breezer #1 (his personal bike) had a head-tube angle
 of 67.5 degrees and for Breezers #2-10, he made it 68 degrees.   He had
 really liked a bike with a 70 degree head angle but some other
 characteristics of the bike didn't suit him so he chose not to use it as
 the basis for the geometry of his bikes. His second series of bikes also
 had 68 degree head angles but by 1982 he was building bikes with 70 degree
 head tubes.  I think he was still sticking with longer chainstays though.

 For those really interested in this stuff, here's a fascinating article:

 http://www.peterverdone.com/?p=2399



 On Tuesday, February 17, 2015 at 11:13:15 PM UTC-6, Mike Schiller wrote:

 oh gawd!   alba/bosco whatever on an MTB... never in my life ( I hope)!
 The tighter geometry on MTB's was happening in '87 for sure.  I was racing
 NORBA on a Fisher and it was not slack.  https://www.flickr.com/
 photos/37347002@N05/16209721716/
 https://www.flickr.com/photos/37347002@N05/16209721716/
 The Bstones were a little steeper HA in the early 90's ( had an MB-2) but
 not much.  Most MTB's transitioned to the NORBA geo of 71/73 angles and
 shorter chainstays in the late 80's including Bridgestone.

 ~mike
 Carlsbad Ca


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[RBW] Re: Paul Brakes -- Wow!

2015-02-20 Thread Michael Hechmer

I also appreciate how easy it is to rebuild Paul's brakes.  All the parts 
are available at a reasonable cost. Last a life time. Once you get past an 
initial learning curve they are pretty easy to adjust and hold their 
adjustment very well.

Many years ago, while commuting home I was involved in a crash which was 
largely caused by a pair of inadequate Shimano cantis (and a crazy women in 
a pick up truck.).  After that I switched to a pair of neo retros.  Soon 
after that I was staring at a car that had made a right turn directly in 
front of me.  The neo retros lifted the rear wheel off the ground but 
stopped the bike on the spot.  I've never considered any other brakes 
since.  Worth every penny.

Michael

On Thursday, February 19, 2015 at 6:53:31 PM UTC-5, Deacon Patrick wrote:

 Thanks to Peter for the new to me brakes, I just replaced the Tektro 
 (720?) brakes (whatever was stock) on the Quickbeam with Paul Touring canti 
 in the rear and Neo-Retro front. I still have a bit of adjusting to do with 
 saddle cable length on the front, but Wow! What a difference! Absolutely 
 amazing difference on my very short test ride (though I did a very steep 
 section and they handled the down hill beautifully!). Smoother, steadier, 
 more solid. The install a feeling of confidence. I like that in a brake. 
 Grin.

 With abandon,
 Patrick

 *www.MindYourHeadCoop.org http://www.MindYourHeadCoop.org*
 *www.OurHolyConception.org http://www.OurHolyConception.org*
  


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[RBW] Re: Walnut Creek Things to Do

2015-02-20 Thread Manuel Acosta

Minh,

If you're around Sunday I might be free to show you around... (famous last 
words) Otherwise my best suggestion is to go to RivHQ and borrow a bike. 
Ask them about food options. 
Plenty within walking distance from RivHQ. Ride a bike to BBH super down 
the street. Ask for directions to Grant's Hills or Shell ridge.

Make sure you stop by Leonias a couple blocks away from BBH and get a hot 
chocolate. 

My favorite close food options is Havanas Cafe for breakfast, Breakfast 
burrito is a good staple. For dinner Babalou or Tullios.

Riv folks eat plenty around there they know whats good.

Manny
 


On Friday, February 20, 2015 at 12:30:24 PM UTC-8, Minh wrote:

 So i'm going to be in Walnut Creek for 24 hours next week.  Is there a 
 things to do while in Walnut Creek post?  With all of the love, and 
 frequent visits to RBWHQ or RBBH i'm surprised that these isn't a things to 
 do in Walnut Creek while visiting Rivendell!

 I'll admit the few times i have visited RBWHQ it's been in and out, but 
 this time i'm spending the night there.  My only plan at the moment is to 
 stop by BBH on my evening jog.  Does anyone have any recommendations for 
 things to do?  What about a dinner or breakfast suggestion?  

 I sense a sticky, i can't be the first out-of-towner who thought of this!




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[RBW] Enjoy the time off.

2015-02-20 Thread Manuel Acosta

I have no idea how I've been keep up with my Bike Tour-R12. (This btw this 
now has become a thing 
http://pathlesspedaled.com/2015/01/join-us-in-the-2015-bike-tour-a-month-challenge/?utm_source=feedburnerutm_medium=feedutm_campaign=Feed%3A+ThePathLessPedaled+%28The+Path+Less+Pedaled%29
 
, ALSO I want to Jenny K already finished her last year 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/mannyacosta/11136085714 and I want to say 
coined the term)

But I digress, So far I'm 2/12 months going strong. Don't know if I'll be 
able to keep it up but what I do know is that a Sackville Grabsack single 
buckle is weight rated, one Manny.

Pictures Proved that I forgot my paracord;
https://flic.kr/s/aHsk8Evhg1

Manny We slept outside for Johan's birthday Acosta

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Re: [RBW] Re: Paul Brakes -- Wow!

2015-02-20 Thread Z

Ted,

Envision one half of a cantilever brake setup.  There is an axis between 
the points where the straddle cable attaches and the brake pivots.  We'll 
call this The Axis.  Now envision a force vector along the straddle cable. 
 If you conceptually break down that vector into components which are 1) 
perpendicular to The Axis and 2) parallel to The Axis, you will realize 
that any force parallel to the axis will be working against the rigidity of 
the cantilever brake mount.  So, you really want to maximize former vector 
component... that is, by applying the straddle cable's force perpendicular 
(90 degrees) to The Axis.  The iron cross analogy of infinite tension 
doesn't really work when you consider the brake pivots (and the steel frame 
to which they attach) resisting most of that tension.

Z

On Friday, February 20, 2015 at 7:35:52 PM UTC-7, ted wrote:

 Michael,

 I am confused.
 Are you saying that not enough mechanical advantage causes the lever will 
 bottom out, or that too much will?
 Do you agree with Mark that 90 deg. gives the best stopping power, and say 
 that 45 degrees gives the most power?
 Are you distinguishing between pure power and stopping power, and if 
 you are how do you define them?
 What exactly is the hence that makes neo retros require a higher 
 straddle cable?
 Could you please elaborate?

 On Friday, February 20, 2015 at 4:40:16 PM UTC-8, Michael Hechmer wrote:

 I too agree. Mechanical advantage is important to avoid having the lever 
 bottom out before the brake fully engages, but pure power will be maximized 
 when the straddle cable is 45 degrees to the arm.  Hence the neo retros 
 require a higher straddle cable than the touring cantis to maximize 
 stopping power.

 Michael

 On Friday, February 20, 2015 at 5:25:28 PM UTC-5, Mark Reimer wrote:

 Deacon,

 I agree with you on this. Getting the straddle as close to 90 degrees 
 has always been the position which yielded the greatest stopping power for 
 me. With my neo-retro's (Aka the 'weaker' of the paul canti's) I have the 
 cable long and up high, and I have enough power to lift up the back wheel 
 if I really wanted. 

 Lower straddle usually results in less power, and obviously less mud 
 clearance as well. 

 As I understand it, the idea is to get the cable as close to 90 degrees 
 as you can WHEN the brakes are in contact with the rim. 

 To read a much more exhaustive explanation than I'm willing to 
 regurgitate, take a look at BQ's great write-up on setting up canti's. 

 In the end, I'm sure we can all agree that Paul canti's are awesome. 

 On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 4:18 PM, ted ted@comcast.net wrote:

 Deacon,

 I am glad that you were able get your brakes to work the way you want. 
 I suspect you were told the opposite of what I am telling you, and that 
 you 
 understood what they were saying. Sadly they told you wrong. But happily 
 they still steered you to something that worked for you.

 The phrase slushy brakes suggests to me low effort producing large 
 brake lever travel with little braking effect. If that's what you had it 
 was likely due to elasticity in the brake system, which is a separate 
 thing 
 from leverage. If you experience that sort of thing, look for what moves 
 when you squeeze the lever hard after the pads hit the rim. For example, I 
 found the steel front cable hangers flex a lot. Replacing mine with the 
 aluminum ones improved the feel of my brakes significantly. Cables that 
 change shape as the brakes are applied can be another source of excess 
 travel.


 On Friday, February 20, 2015 at 4:21:44 AM UTC-8, Deacon Patrick wrote:

 Ted, et al engineer types: I happily bow to your knowledge on the 
 angles and leverage, though I was told the opposite (as I understood it) 
 before I made the change. Interestingly, either way, the experience went 
 from slushy brakes (short saddle cable,  90˚ intersection with the brake 
 arm) and salmon pads, to passable strength except in single track steep 
 descents (long saddle cable, close to 90˚ intersection with the brake 
 arm). 
 But that point is mute now, as the Paul's are wonderful! I look forward 
 to 
 snow-free trails so I can try them out!

 With abandon,
 Patrick

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[RBW] Re: Clearcoat over raw steel, my turn!

2015-02-20 Thread Jeremy Till

I worked at a Brompton dealer for a while. Even though it was a ~$200
upcharge over normal paint, one of the most popular finish choices was
essentially the same finish, what they called raw lacquer. The rep once
explained to me that the upcharge was not because the finish cost more than
normal paint or powder--although it did require extra rust protection
treatment--but because the brazing on those frames had to be super clean,
since it would be on display for all the world to see! Thus, it's
interesting to see the clearcoat treatment on a frame that wasn't
originally intended to be clear coated..gives you a sense of what finished
brazing looks like at the production level.

On Tuesday, February 17, 2015 at 9:00:10 PM UTC-8, Tim Gavin wrote:

This is my '88 Schwinn KOM, after I had the frame refinished.

The paint was badly scratched, chipped, and showing a couple surface rust
spots.
1) I had it bead blasted to remove the paint.
2) My friend Andy brazed on some eyelets (the KOM, as a racing frame, had
none).
3) I had it bead blasted again to clean up after the brazing.
4) I had it painted with 2 coats of automotive clear. My local powder
coater was afraid his clear coat would still be a bit milky, so he hooked
me up with a painter instead.

I think it turned out beautifully raw. I love being able to see the bra
zing. The lugs are simple and very clean, but the fork lug is pretty
messy in comparison. Then again, it's a weird lug and looks like it
needed a some fillet work.

The curious part is, there is some sort of copper or bronze on the bottom
of the head tube. It lasted through two bead blasts, so it's not rust. I
think it's a gorgeous detail, but it's weird.

I retired the original Uniglide wheels, and gave my Schwinn the wheels off
my '05 Cannondale (for now). I'm really tempted to get a dynamo wheelset,
and this one is very tempting
http://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/shimano-custom-made-wheelset-26-with-dynamo-dh-t780-mavic-xm317-52011/wg_id-507

for less than $200.

I had broken the original XT derailer a couple months ago, so I found a
9-speed XT RD and installed matching 9-speed Shimano bar-end shifters. The
bar wrap was matched to the Captain America original paint, but the blue
still looks good. I may try dark red or green next.

I can gush about the Schwinn KOM
http://mombat.org/MOMBAT/Bikes/1988_Schwinn_KOM.html (and it's older
brother, the Paramountain). If you ever see one that fits you (and your
N+1 equation), buy it. Ned Overend rode the Paramountain to a NORBA
championship, and gave design input. It has great 71/74 geometry and is
comparable to an MB-1. Mine is 22 x 24 (56 x 61 cm) of MUSA, lugged,
lightweight steel!
I lucked out and found this one on my hometown's Craigslist for $75. I've
been very lucky with my local Craigslist! I scored this, my Riv, my
Giordana gofast, and a 90s Univega for my girlfriend that I built up like
I've built this KOM.

Everything is original except: wheels, tires, Nitto B135 bars, TRP brake
levers, Nitto Dirt Drop 8 stem, 9 speed shifters and RD, pedals and seat.
I use a Nitto M12 and Carradice SQR to carry a Sackville Small Trunksack
and Carradice Nelson, respectively. Bell and mirror, of course.

Now that I have rack mounts, I will probably try out some camping setups
this summer.

I love love love how this bike rides; it's a tight race between the KOM
and my Rivendell for the most ride time (in fair weather). The fast 2
tires (ITS MK2) make it great for the potholed streets and curbs on my
commute, and it really flies on the limestone gravel back roads in Iowa's
river valleys. Grant Wood country.

https://plus.google.com/photos/109817667934112590257/albums/5930329788956113873
Lots of photos
https://plus.google.com/photos/109817667934112590257/albums/5930329788956113873
.

Tim Gavin
Cedar Rapids, IA

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Re: [RBW] Re: Paul Brakes -- Wow!

Michael,

I am confused.
Are you saying that not enough mechanical advantage causes the lever will 
bottom out, or that too much will?
Do you agree with Mark that 90 deg. gives the best stopping power, and say 
that 45 degrees gives the most power?
Are you distinguishing between pure power and stopping power, and if 
you are how do you define them?
What exactly is the hence that makes neo retros require a higher straddle 
cable?
Could you please elaborate?

On Friday, February 20, 2015 at 4:40:16 PM UTC-8, Michael Hechmer wrote:

 I too agree. Mechanical advantage is important to avoid having the lever 
 bottom out before the brake fully engages, but pure power will be maximized 
 when the straddle cable is 45 degrees to the arm.  Hence the neo retros 
 require a higher straddle cable than the touring cantis to maximize 
 stopping power.

 Michael

 On Friday, February 20, 2015 at 5:25:28 PM UTC-5, Mark Reimer wrote:

 Deacon,

 I agree with you on this. Getting the straddle as close to 90 degrees has 
 always been the position which yielded the greatest stopping power for me. 
 With my neo-retro's (Aka the 'weaker' of the paul canti's) I have the cable 
 long and up high, and I have enough power to lift up the back wheel if I 
 really wanted. 

 Lower straddle usually results in less power, and obviously less mud 
 clearance as well. 

 As I understand it, the idea is to get the cable as close to 90 degrees 
 as you can WHEN the brakes are in contact with the rim. 

 To read a much more exhaustive explanation than I'm willing to 
 regurgitate, take a look at BQ's great write-up on setting up canti's. 

 In the end, I'm sure we can all agree that Paul canti's are awesome. 

 On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 4:18 PM, ted ted@comcast.net wrote:

 Deacon,

 I am glad that you were able get your brakes to work the way you want. I 
 suspect you were told the opposite of what I am telling you, and that you 
 understood what they were saying. Sadly they told you wrong. But happily 
 they still steered you to something that worked for you.

 The phrase slushy brakes suggests to me low effort producing large 
 brake lever travel with little braking effect. If that's what you had it 
 was likely due to elasticity in the brake system, which is a separate thing 
 from leverage. If you experience that sort of thing, look for what moves 
 when you squeeze the lever hard after the pads hit the rim. For example, I 
 found the steel front cable hangers flex a lot. Replacing mine with the 
 aluminum ones improved the feel of my brakes significantly. Cables that 
 change shape as the brakes are applied can be another source of excess 
 travel.


 On Friday, February 20, 2015 at 4:21:44 AM UTC-8, Deacon Patrick wrote:

 Ted, et al engineer types: I happily bow to your knowledge on the 
 angles and leverage, though I was told the opposite (as I understood it) 
 before I made the change. Interestingly, either way, the experience went 
 from slushy brakes (short saddle cable,  90˚ intersection with the brake 
 arm) and salmon pads, to passable strength except in single track steep 
 descents (long saddle cable, close to 90˚ intersection with the brake 
 arm). 
 But that point is mute now, as the Paul's are wonderful! I look forward to 
 snow-free trails so I can try them out!

 With abandon,
 Patrick

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Re: [RBW] Re: Paul Brakes -- Wow!

Of course you should like what you like, and may believe whatever you like.
However as it seems you realize, good brakes are about more than just 
mechanical advantage. Though your experience has taught you that 90deg. 
gives the best brakes it does not follow that 90deg gives maximum 
mechanical advantage.

On Friday, February 20, 2015 at 3:09:18 PM UTC-8, Clayton wrote:

 Oh... I forgot to mention that brake feel is more important than outright 
 power anyway. Bikes have a small contact patch. It's important to know 
 exactly when your tire is at max adhesion at maximum braking, and not past 
 it. I bow out now...bye.

 Clay


   On Friday, February 20, 2015 2:34 PM, ted ted@comcast.net 
 javascript: wrote:
  

 Clayton,

 Your reasoning is mostly wrong, and your stick analogy does not apply.
 I think you are forgetting that the straddle wire provides mechanical 
 advantage. A small side force on  a relatively straight cable produces a 
 large tension in the cable. In theory, if the cable is straight the 
 leverage is infinite. If you correctly analyze any cantilever brake setup 
 you will find that making the straddle wire flatter increases the net 
 leverage. Unless of course the cable attachment point is at or below the 
 pivot, but I don't think anybody makes brakes like that.


 On Friday, February 20, 2015 at 10:26:03 AM UTC-8, Clayton wrote:

 I have to jump in here.. I have always been taught and discovered on my 
 own, that the straddle cable should be as close to perpendicular, or at 90 
 degrees, to the center of the brake pad lever *when it hits the rim*. 
 You can do this experiment on your own. Get a stick. Tie a string to it. 
 Lay the stick on the ground and lift the string. Lift perpendicularly and 
 then from different acute angles, inline with the stick. If you lift from 
 acute angles, the stick slides, which is energy wasted. If you set up your 
 brakes with a too short straddle cable, you lose feel and the leverage 
 forces change as you apply the brakes. Starts out soft and weak, and 
 increases as you apply the brakes because the angle gets closer to 90 
 degrees. Over 90 degrees, and you get weak brakes. The brake arm is just a 
 lever. It works best, like all levers if you lift from the end at 90 
 degrees. The brake arm pivot placement is basic too. Long arm on the 
 straddle cable side, shorter arm on the rim side. It does not matter at all 
 when it comes to straddle cable length. The only lever the straddle cable 
 acts on is the long side. The distance between the pivot and rim, and pivot 
 and straddle cable angle is fixed and you can't change it. After 20 years 
 plus of running cantilevers and being a mechanic for YETI cycles back in 
 the heyday, a shop manager and mechanic, I finally gave up.  I run V-brakes 
 now, which are much more powerful, especially with long Cool Stop salmon 
 pads. Braking is at near disc power. I can easily do a nose wheelie, using 
 brake power alone. The feel is so good, I can anti-lock brake the front. 
 Apply, feel it start to slide, let loose and rebrake. The only thing I 
 don't like and it is very minor, is the hood shape on the Cane Creek Road 
 V-brake levers.  There is far more clearance with panniers and I don't poke 
 my calf anymore. Everyone here loves their cantilevers. They are prettier 
 and match the aesthetic of Rivendell. I get that, but for me the 
 superiority of V-brakes has become beautiful in itself. 

 On Thursday, February 19, 2015 at 7:33:03 PM UTC-8, ted wrote:

 Deacon,

 The thing is, that definitely does not increase the leverage. 

 The the vertical component of the tension in the straddle cable is equal 
 to the tension in the brake cable (well half on each side).
 Lengthening the straddle cable reduces the tension in it as well as 
 changing the angle at which it meets the brake arm. The vertical component 
 of the tension stays the same, and the horizontal component is decreased.
 The net result is less torque around the brake post for a given force on 
 the brake lever.
 For a wide profile brake like the 720, where the end of the arm is barely 
 above the pivot, the decrease in leverage is relatively small. But it is a 
 decrease, not an increase. To get an increase in leverage by lengthening 
 the straddle cable the end of the brake arm would have to be below the 
 pivot.

 Again I'm not claiming that the longer straddle cable didn't work better 
 for you, just that the cause of the better can't have been increased 
 leverage.


 On Thursday, February 19, 2015 at 6:56:40 PM UTC-8, Deacon Patrick wrote:

 Kellie, I went with touring in the back because I got them used and that's 
 the set up that was available. It's a set up common to folks who want the 
 most power for the front brake, and clearance for panniers in the rear.

 Ted, lengthening the saddle cable make the angle of the brake cable to the 
 brake arm closer to 90˚, and that definitely increased leverage. Here's 
 what it looked like:

[RBW] Re: Walnut Creek Things to Do

2015-02-20 Thread Minh

Hi Manny,

Thanks for the offer, schedule won't allow for a get together, but i will 
take your suggestions into consideration!  

On Friday, February 20, 2015 at 7:46:05 PM UTC-5, Manuel Acosta wrote:

 Minh,

 If you're around Sunday I might be free to show you around... (famous last 
 words) Otherwise my best suggestion is to go to RivHQ and borrow a bike. 
 Ask them about food options. 
 Plenty within walking distance from RivHQ. Ride a bike to BBH super down 
 the street. Ask for directions to Grant's Hills or Shell ridge.

 Make sure you stop by Leonias a couple blocks away from BBH and get a hot 
 chocolate. 

 My favorite close food options is Havanas Cafe for breakfast, Breakfast 
 burrito is a good staple. For dinner Babalou or Tullios.

 Riv folks eat plenty around there they know whats good.

 Manny
  


 On Friday, February 20, 2015 at 12:30:24 PM UTC-8, Minh wrote:

 So i'm going to be in Walnut Creek for 24 hours next week.  Is there a 
 things to do while in Walnut Creek post?  With all of the love, and 
 frequent visits to RBWHQ or RBBH i'm surprised that these isn't a things to 
 do in Walnut Creek while visiting Rivendell!

 I'll admit the few times i have visited RBWHQ it's been in and out, but 
 this time i'm spending the night there.  My only plan at the moment is to 
 stop by BBH on my evening jog.  Does anyone have any recommendations for 
 things to do?  What about a dinner or breakfast suggestion?  

 I sense a sticky, i can't be the first out-of-towner who thought of this!




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[RBW] Re: Paul Brakes -- Wow!

Paul brakes are the best! I race cross with a pair of neo retro's. Can't 
imagine ever needing more brake. I can easily lock up the wheels if I wanted 
too. Nice and smooth modular braking. I tried using trp cx8.4's and hated them 
compared to the Paul's. I'd love a pair of touring brakes on my Atlantis 
someday. Only brakes you'll ever need. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: bb/thread installation question

2015-02-20 Thread William deRosset

Dear Patrick,

It isn't the end of the world, though it is a hassle. 

If the threads are actually mangled, you may be able to fix them as Patrick 
outlines. You also can re-thread BSC bottom brackets to Italian threads. 
Worst case, brass in the munged up ones and recut them and repaint the bike.

Best Regards,

Will
William M. deRosset
Fort Collins, CO
On Tuesday, February 17, 2015 at 6:39:30 PM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

 Note that cross threaded bb shells (if they are steel) can be (1) 
 sometimes fixed by chasing; (2) repaired by a framebuild; (3) salvaged by 
 using a non-threading-type bb bearing assembly.

 But Deacon P is right: if the shop messed the threads up, they owe you.

 On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 6:35 PM, Deacon Patrick lamon...@mac.com 
 javascript: wrote:

 I'm not the expert others here are, but I've done my BB a number of 
 times. It sounds to my like the second shop gave you good advice with the 
 following additional thoughts:
 -- can you get the first shop to stand by their work and if the frame is 
 ruined to pay for the new frame? I wouldn't recommend using them again, 
 even if it is threaded properly, but find out if Rivendell chases their BB 
 area before selling the frame? (Rivendell built up both my bikes, so I 
 don't know on frame only purchases). 
 -- Can a good frame shop chase it even if it's been misthreaded?

 Good hunting!

 With abandon,
 Patrick
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 -- 
 Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
 By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
 Other professional writing services.
 http://www.resumespecialties.com/
 www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
 Patrick Moore
 Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten

 *
 *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a 
 circumference on the rim of which all conditions, distinctions, and 
 individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu

 *Kinei hos eromenon. It moves as the being-loved. *Aristotle

 *The Love that moves the Sun and all the other stars. *Dante  
  

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[RBW] Re: FS: Rivendell Custom Complete Bike....$550

2015-02-20 Thread Gregg

Final price drop for complete bike $500.00

This bike is rock solid! Made for original owner who was 6' 

On Tuesday, February 10, 2015 at 12:46:13 PM UTC-8, Gregg wrote:

 This is my listing on Craigslist. 

 http://sandiego.craigslist.org/nsd/bik/4883409155.html

 Check it and and let me know if your interested. 
 Thanks! 
 Gregg


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[RBW] FS OR WTT: my 5 speed internal wheelset from my s.o.

2015-02-20 Thread Michael Gasparino

Rear Sturmey archer s-rf5 internal 5 speed freewheel hub. Includes 5 speed bar 
end shifter,cog,and extra hardware parts. Laced to 700c mavic ma3 wheel. Rear 
spacing is 120mm.
Front is shimano deore lx laced to 700c mavic open sport wheel 

I had this set up on my simpleone but ended up going with a double double set 
up. So I have no need for it. I'm interested in frames in the 56cm ballpark and 
other rivish items. If you have something worth more Im fine with putting in 
some extra cash. Let me know what you have in mind. Message me for photos and 
any other questions. 

Mike

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[RBW] Bikes and Recovering from shoulder surgery

2015-02-20 Thread Jim Bailey

Yesterday my new orthopedic surgeon informed me that I will have shoulder 
surgery in March. He suspects I have been walking around with a torn labrum 
in my left shoulder for some time (probably initially due to a bike wreck) 
but worsened the injury moving oak logs (for firewood) mid-fall. For those 
who know the jargon, it's a SLAP tear.

Searching for info about cycling and recovery from this kind of surgery has 
left me a bit blue. It looks like 4-6 weeks in a sling, then very slow 4-6 
months to full use.

Ironically, I'd just received a 54cm Sam Hillborne frame the week I tore 
it. The frame is now fully built and sits unused.

My questions are: Has anyone on the list had the surgery and, if so, what 
was your recovery like? And, what's the best wisdom from the group 
regarding cycling and recovery from SLAP repairs?

Thanks,
Jim in Knoxville, TN

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[RBW] FS: Lots! and now discount

2015-02-20 Thread olofstroh

RBWers,

Last week I put quite a lot of good parts for sale. I thought prices were
reasonable, but only a few things have been sold. I´d prefer to sell to
members of my lists, so 25% discount until I go to ebay on Wednesday. Go to
http://tapeedil.com/hem/bike_and_parts/ and have a look.

 

Olof Stroh

Uppsala Sweden

 

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[RBW] Re: Clearcoat over raw steel, my turn!

2015-02-20 Thread Johan Larsson

Looks very nice! I'm curious about the copper tone brazing at the head lug. 
Never seen any brass brazing in that color before, but it's probably just 
some variety I've not come across.

Johan Larsson,
Sweden

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Re: [RBW] Re: Paul Brakes -- Wow!

2015-02-20 Thread Z

Ted,

Envision one half of a cantilever brake setup.  There is an axis between 
the points where the straddle cable attaches and the brake pivots.  We'll 
call this The Axis.  Now envision a force vector along the straddle cable. 
 If you conceptually break down that vector into components which are 1) 
perpendicular to The Axis and 2) parallel to The Axis, you will realize 
that any force parallel to The Axis will be working against the rigidity of 
the cantilever brake mount.  So, you really want to maximize former vector 
component... that is, by applying the straddle cable's force perpendicular 
(90 degrees) to The Axis.  Of course, you want to be maximizing this force 
vector as the brake pad is touching the rim.  

It's true that you can apply a great deal of tension to a straight cable by 
applying a force perpendicular to its axis.  However, the theoretical 
infinite tension doesn't really affect braking when you consider the brake 
pivots (and the steel frame to which they attach) resisting most of that 
tension, which is what you would likely achieve with a high profile 
cantilever and shallow straddle cable angle.  


Z

On Friday, February 20, 2015 at 7:35:52 PM UTC-7, ted wrote:

 Michael,

 I am confused.
 Are you saying that not enough mechanical advantage causes the lever will 
 bottom out, or that too much will?
 Do you agree with Mark that 90 deg. gives the best stopping power, and say 
 that 45 degrees gives the most power?
 Are you distinguishing between pure power and stopping power, and if 
 you are how do you define them?
 What exactly is the hence that makes neo retros require a higher 
 straddle cable?
 Could you please elaborate?

 On Friday, February 20, 2015 at 4:40:16 PM UTC-8, Michael Hechmer wrote:

 I too agree. Mechanical advantage is important to avoid having the lever 
 bottom out before the brake fully engages, but pure power will be maximized 
 when the straddle cable is 45 degrees to the arm.  Hence the neo retros 
 require a higher straddle cable than the touring cantis to maximize 
 stopping power.

 Michael

 On Friday, February 20, 2015 at 5:25:28 PM UTC-5, Mark Reimer wrote:

 Deacon,

 I agree with you on this. Getting the straddle as close to 90 degrees 
 has always been the position which yielded the greatest stopping power for 
 me. With my neo-retro's (Aka the 'weaker' of the paul canti's) I have the 
 cable long and up high, and I have enough power to lift up the back wheel 
 if I really wanted. 

 Lower straddle usually results in less power, and obviously less mud 
 clearance as well. 

 As I understand it, the idea is to get the cable as close to 90 degrees 
 as you can WHEN the brakes are in contact with the rim. 

 To read a much more exhaustive explanation than I'm willing to 
 regurgitate, take a look at BQ's great write-up on setting up canti's. 

 In the end, I'm sure we can all agree that Paul canti's are awesome. 

 On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 4:18 PM, ted ted@comcast.net wrote:

 Deacon,

 I am glad that you were able get your brakes to work the way you want. 
 I suspect you were told the opposite of what I am telling you, and that 
 you 
 understood what they were saying. Sadly they told you wrong. But happily 
 they still steered you to something that worked for you.

 The phrase slushy brakes suggests to me low effort producing large 
 brake lever travel with little braking effect. If that's what you had it 
 was likely due to elasticity in the brake system, which is a separate 
 thing 
 from leverage. If you experience that sort of thing, look for what moves 
 when you squeeze the lever hard after the pads hit the rim. For example, I 
 found the steel front cable hangers flex a lot. Replacing mine with the 
 aluminum ones improved the feel of my brakes significantly. Cables that 
 change shape as the brakes are applied can be another source of excess 
 travel.


 On Friday, February 20, 2015 at 4:21:44 AM UTC-8, Deacon Patrick wrote:

 Ted, et al engineer types: I happily bow to your knowledge on the 
 angles and leverage, though I was told the opposite (as I understood it) 
 before I made the change. Interestingly, either way, the experience went 
 from slushy brakes (short saddle cable,  90˚ intersection with the brake 
 arm) and salmon pads, to passable strength except in single track steep 
 descents (long saddle cable, close to 90˚ intersection with the brake 
 arm). 
 But that point is mute now, as the Paul's are wonderful! I look forward 
 to 
 snow-free trails so I can try them out!

 With abandon,
 Patrick

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[RBW] Re: Clearcoat over raw steel, my turn!

2015-02-20 Thread islaysteve

I like this look and never knew it existed until I started reading the Riv 
Blug, and this list.  It would be ironic if I did this to my Bleriot, because I 
did just the opposite to my last bike: had my Ti frame painted.  I guess I'm 
really a color guy at heart.
Steve

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RE: [RBW] Bikes and Recovering from shoulder surgery

2015-02-20 Thread Joe Bartoe

Hi Jim,

My brother had a partial shoulder replacement after a hit and run. It was a 
long haul recovery process and he was itching to get on his bike. He ended up 
purchasing a recumbent trike (Terra Trike, if memory serves) that he rode a lot 
and did several long-distance rides on, including a double century. The best 
part was that he bought it used and sold it for the same price he bought it. He 
was glad to not have to ride it anymore, but he was also glad to have had the 
option while he was rehabbing.

Joe

Joe Bartoe
Synaptic Cycles Bicycle Rentals, Inc.
email: j...@synapticcycles.com
website: www.synapticcycles.com
Twitter: @synapticcycles
phone: 949-374-6079

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 14:12:54 -0800
From: directio...@gmail.com
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: [RBW] Bikes and Recovering from shoulder surgery

Yesterday my new orthopedic surgeon informed me that I will have shoulder 
surgery in March. He suspects I have been walking around with a torn labrum in 
my left shoulder for some time (probably initially due to a bike wreck) but 
worsened the injury moving oak logs (for firewood) mid-fall. For those who know 
the jargon, it's a SLAP tear.

Searching for info about cycling and recovery from this kind of surgery has 
left me a bit blue. It looks like 4-6 weeks in a sling, then very slow 4-6 
months to full use.

Ironically, I'd just received a 54cm Sam Hillborne frame the week I tore it. 
The frame is now fully built and sits unused.

My questions are: Has anyone on the list had the surgery and, if so, what was 
your recovery like? And, what's the best wisdom from the group regarding 
cycling and recovery from SLAP repairs?

Thanks,
Jim in Knoxville, TN





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Re: [RBW] Re: FS: Rivendell Custom Complete Bike....$550

2015-02-20 Thread Bruce Herbitter

Super price on a great bike.  Sadly I'm 6 too short to ride it 

Sent from my iPhone

 On Feb 19, 2015, at 11:59 AM, Gregg gre...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Final price drop for complete bike $500.00
 
 This bike is rock solid! Made for original owner who was 6' 
 
 On Tuesday, February 10, 2015 at 12:46:13 PM UTC-8, Gregg wrote:
 This is my listing on Craigslist. 
 
 http://sandiego.craigslist.org/nsd/bik/4883409155.html
 
 Check it and and let me know if your interested. 
 Thanks! 
 Gregg
 
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[RBW] FS 1992 MB2 FFHS Extras 52cm

2015-02-20 Thread Goshen Peter

The time has come to sell my not often ridden MB2 frameset. Wheels are just
too heavy to ship. Its the classic red/white combo. Selling with original
headset, bb, brakes, ritchey force handlebars and stem. I also will include
the original crankset, shifters, derailleurs. Looking for about $200
shipped lower 48 but open to offers. Paypal please. If someone is local I
have a set of 26 wheels with new Michelin city tires from a stumpjumper I
can throw in for like 40 bucks. Zip is 10924. Pic below with my beautiful
wife and daughter, can take more. thanks

Peter

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Re: [RBW] Re: Paul Brakes -- Wow!

2015-02-20 Thread 'clayton bailey' via RBW Owners Bunch

Oh... I forgot to mention that brake feel is more important than outright power 
anyway. Bikes have a small contact patch. It's important to know exactly when 
your tire is at max adhesion at maximum braking, and not past it. I bow out 
now...bye.
Clay 

 On Friday, February 20, 2015 2:34 PM, ted ted.ke...@comcast.net wrote:
   

 Clayton,
Your reasoning is mostly wrong, and your stick analogy does not apply.I think 
you are forgetting that the straddle wire provides mechanical advantage. A 
small side force on  a relatively straight cable produces a large tension in 
the cable. In theory, if the cable is straight the leverage is infinite. If you 
correctly analyze any cantilever brake setup you will find that making the 
straddle wire flatter increases the net leverage. Unless of course the cable 
attachment point is at or below the pivot, but I don't think anybody makes 
brakes like that.

On Friday, February 20, 2015 at 10:26:03 AM UTC-8, Clayton wrote:
I have to jump in here.. I have always been taught and discovered on my own, 
that the straddle cable should be as close to perpendicular, or at 90 degrees, 
to the center of the brake pad lever when it hits the rim. You can do this 
experiment on your own. Get a stick. Tie a string to it. Lay the stick on the 
ground and lift the string. Lift perpendicularly and then from different acute 
angles, inline with the stick. If you lift from acute angles, the stick slides, 
which is energy wasted. If you set up your brakes with a too short straddle 
cable, you lose feel and the leverage forces change as you apply the brakes. 
Starts out soft and weak, and increases as you apply the brakes because the 
angle gets closer to 90 degrees. Over 90 degrees, and you get weak brakes. The 
brake arm is just a lever. It works best, like all levers if you lift from the 
end at 90 degrees. The brake arm pivot placement is basic too. Long arm on the 
straddle cable side, shorter arm on the rim side. It does not matter at all 
when it comes to straddle cable length. The only lever the straddle cable acts 
on is the long side. The distance between the pivot and rim, and pivot and 
straddle cable angle is fixed and you can't change it. After 20 years plus of 
running cantilevers and being a mechanic for YETI cycles back in the heyday, a 
shop manager and mechanic, I finally gave up.  I run V-brakes now, which are 
much more powerful, especially with long Cool Stop salmon pads. Braking is at 
near disc power. I can easily do a nose wheelie, using brake power alone. The 
feel is so good, I can anti-lock brake the front. Apply, feel it start to 
slide, let loose and rebrake. The only thing I don't like and it is very minor, 
is the hood shape on the Cane Creek Road V-brake levers.  There is far more 
clearance with panniers and I don't poke my calf anymore. Everyone here loves 
their cantilevers. They are prettier and match the aesthetic of Rivendell. I 
get that, but for me the superiority of V-brakes has become beautiful in 
itself. 

On Thursday, February 19, 2015 at 7:33:03 PM UTC-8, ted wrote:
Deacon,
The thing is, that definitely does not increase the leverage. 
The the vertical component of the tension in the straddle cable is equal to the 
tension in the brake cable (well half on each side).Lengthening the straddle 
cable reduces the tension in it as well as changing the angle at which it meets 
the brake arm. The vertical component of the tension stays the same, and the 
horizontal component is decreased.The net result is less torque around the 
brake post for a given force on the brake lever.For a wide profile brake like 
the 720, where the end of the arm is barely above the pivot, the decrease in 
leverage is relatively small. But it is a decrease, not an increase. To get an 
increase in leverage by lengthening the straddle cable the end of the brake arm 
would have to be below the pivot.
Again I'm not claiming that the longer straddle cable didn't work better for 
you, just that the cause of the better can't have been increased leverage.

On Thursday, February 19, 2015 at 6:56:40 PM UTC-8, Deacon Patrick wrote:
Kellie, I went with touring in the back because I got them used and that's the 
set up that was available. It's a set up common to folks who want the most 
power for the front brake, and clearance for panniers in the rear.
Ted, lengthening the saddle cable make the angle of the brake cable to the 
brake arm closer to 90˚, and that definitely increased leverage. Here's what it 
looked like:https://www.flickr.com/photos/ 32311885@N07/14450777149/in/ 
set-72157645649878184

With abandon,Patrick


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[RBW] Re: Bikes and Recovering from shoulder surgery

2015-02-20 Thread Surlyprof

Jim,

I suffered a labrum strain two years ago (not as substantial an injury) and 
kept reinjuring it due to my inability to *not* do things to put it at 
risk.  One of those things was to continue biking on both a Bianchi with 
drops and a SOMA mtb with straight bars.  I couldn't ride them without 
aggravating the injury probably setting back my recovery by months.  Still 
needing to ride at least to commute to work, I bought a set of Bosco Bars 
and a shorter stem for the SOMA.  That took a great deal of the pressure 
off my shoulders by shifting me to a very upright position.  I didn't love 
being that high up but rode that way for about 4-5 months before putting 
the straight bars back on.  Of course I felt safe putting the straight bars 
back on the SOMA because I had sold the Bianchi and bought a Hillborne with 
Albatross bars and haven't ridden the SOMA much since 
(https://www.flickr.com/photos/129545862@N03/15970729244/in/set-72157650518230279).
 
 I also haven't encountered any additional problems on the Hillborne.  Now 
I am even looking to shift out the Albatross bars for the lower position of 
an Albastache.  I feel pretty confident at this point that going a little 
lower won't re-injure the shoulder.  I bought the longer Nitto stem so I 
can always raise the bars if it starts to hurt again.

Good luck with a speedy recovery.

John

On Thursday, February 19, 2015 at 2:12:54 PM UTC-8, Jim Bailey wrote:

 Yesterday my new orthopedic surgeon informed me that I will have shoulder 
 surgery in March. He suspects I have been walking around with a torn labrum 
 in my left shoulder for some time (probably initially due to a bike wreck) 
 but worsened the injury moving oak logs (for firewood) mid-fall. For those 
 who know the jargon, it's a SLAP tear.

 Searching for info about cycling and recovery from this kind of surgery 
 has left me a bit blue. It looks like 4-6 weeks in a sling, then very slow 
 4-6 months to full use.

 Ironically, I'd just received a 54cm Sam Hillborne frame the week I tore 
 it. The frame is now fully built and sits unused.

 My questions are: Has anyone on the list had the surgery and, if so, what 
 was your recovery like? And, what's the best wisdom from the group 
 regarding cycling and recovery from SLAP repairs?

 Thanks,
 Jim in Knoxville, TN


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[RBW] Re: Paul Brakes -- Wow!

2015-02-20 Thread 'Clayton' via RBW Owners Bunch

I have to jump in here.. I have always been taught and discovered on my 
own, that the straddle cable should be as close to perpendicular, or at 90 
degrees, to the center of the brake pad lever *when it hits the rim*. You 
can do this experiment on your own. Get a stick. Tie a string to it. Lay 
the stick on the ground and lift the string. Lift perpendicularly and then 
from different acute angles, inline with the stick. If you lift from acute 
angles, the stick slides, which is energy wasted. If you set up your brakes 
with a too short straddle cable, you lose feel and the leverage forces 
change as you apply the brakes. Starts out soft and weak, and increases as 
you apply the brakes because the angle gets closer to 90 degrees. Over 90 
degrees, and you get weak brakes. The brake arm is just a lever. It works 
best, like all levers if you lift from the end at 90 degrees. The brake arm 
pivot placement is basic too. Long arm on the straddle cable side, shorter 
arm on the rim side. It does not matter at all when it comes to straddle 
cable length. The only lever the straddle cable acts on is the long side. 
The distance between the pivot and rim, and pivot and straddle cable angle 
is fixed and you can't change it. After 20 years plus of running 
cantilevers and being a mechanic for YETI cycles back in the heyday, a shop 
manager and mechanic, I finally gave up.  I run V-brakes now, which are 
much more powerful, especially with long Cool Stop salmon pads. Braking is 
at near disc power. I can easily do a nose wheelie, using brake power 
alone. The feel is so good, I can anti-lock brake the front. Apply, feel it 
start to slide, let loose and rebrake. The only thing I don't like and it 
is very minor, is the hood shape on the Cane Creek Road V-brake levers. 
 There is far more clearance with panniers and I don't poke my calf 
anymore. Everyone here loves their cantilevers. They are prettier and match 
the aesthetic of Rivendell. I get that, but for me the superiority of 
V-brakes has become beautiful in itself. 

On Thursday, February 19, 2015 at 7:33:03 PM UTC-8, ted wrote:

 Deacon,

 The thing is, that definitely does not increase the leverage. 

 The the vertical component of the tension in the straddle cable is equal 
 to the tension in the brake cable (well half on each side).
 Lengthening the straddle cable reduces the tension in it as well as 
 changing the angle at which it meets the brake arm. The vertical component 
 of the tension stays the same, and the horizontal component is decreased.
 The net result is less torque around the brake post for a given force on 
 the brake lever.
 For a wide profile brake like the 720, where the end of the arm is barely 
 above the pivot, the decrease in leverage is relatively small. But it is a 
 decrease, not an increase. To get an increase in leverage by lengthening 
 the straddle cable the end of the brake arm would have to be below the 
 pivot.

 Again I'm not claiming that the longer straddle cable didn't work better 
 for you, just that the cause of the better can't have been increased 
 leverage.


 On Thursday, February 19, 2015 at 6:56:40 PM UTC-8, Deacon Patrick wrote:

 Kellie, I went with touring in the back because I got them used and 
 that's the set up that was available. It's a set up common to folks who 
 want the most power for the front brake, and clearance for panniers in the 
 rear.

 Ted, lengthening the saddle cable make the angle of the brake cable to 
 the brake arm closer to 90˚, and that definitely increased leverage. Here's 
 what it looked like:

 https://www.flickr.com/photos/32311885@N07/14450777149/in/set-72157645649878184

 With abandon,
 Patrick



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[RBW] Re: Bikes and Recovering from shoulder surgery

2015-02-20 Thread Deacon Patrick

No idea on the details, but drink a big bowl of bone broth (or make it into 
soup) daily for a week or more before, and the months following. This helps 
speed the knitting and healing of bones and tendons and other stuff in 
there.

To make your own, buy oxtail, put in a big soup pot filled with water, add 
two teaspoons of vinegar, bring to a boil, then simmer covered for 24 
hours. As the broth gets low, repeat (or just always keep the pot on and 
near full during the day, adding a teaspoon of vinegar each day). Repeat 
until the bones are gone or the broth too thin, then keep using those bones 
but add another oxtail.

Heal well!

With abandon,
Patrick

On Thursday, February 19, 2015 at 3:12:54 PM UTC-7, Jim Bailey wrote:

 Yesterday my new orthopedic surgeon informed me that I will have shoulder 
 surgery in March. He suspects I have been walking around with a torn labrum 
 in my left shoulder for some time (probably initially due to a bike wreck) 
 but worsened the injury moving oak logs (for firewood) mid-fall. For those 
 who know the jargon, it's a SLAP tear.

 Searching for info about cycling and recovery from this kind of surgery 
 has left me a bit blue. It looks like 4-6 weeks in a sling, then very slow 
 4-6 months to full use.

 Ironically, I'd just received a 54cm Sam Hillborne frame the week I tore 
 it. The frame is now fully built and sits unused.

 My questions are: Has anyone on the list had the surgery and, if so, what 
 was your recovery like? And, what's the best wisdom from the group 
 regarding cycling and recovery from SLAP repairs?

 Thanks,
 Jim in Knoxville, TN


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[RBW] Re: Paul Brakes -- Wow!