[RBW] Re: New Winter Project: Another 650B conversion, thanks in part to you

[John Hawrylak]

Columbus Tenax was Cromor.  Ref Nova Cycles, a long time Columbus 
distributor

http://www.cycle-frames.com/bicycle-frame-tubing/COLUMBUS-2010-CHROMOR-ROAD-TUBESET.html

Here is their write up

This tubeset, Chromor/Thron has a long history that includes  Touring 
frames for Schwinn in the 80's and 90's with Prelude and Tempo models. 
Schwinn manufactured approximately 25,000 of these frames during this time 
using the name Tenax. We sold Chromor and later Thron as Columbus entry 
level pro tubes just below SL/SP.

I have an 88 Panasonic Schwinn Voyageur with Tenax, and I was curious as to 
the wall thickness.

Note, in 2010, they showed a TT/DT wall of 0.9/0.6/0.9.  I recently 
e-mailed Nova and asked if the 2010 specs were the same as the 80's.  I was 
interested since the 80's specs showed 1.0/0.7/1.0.  Their reply was to the 
point (they probably get these questions a lot):

Schwinn used both wall thicknesses and I do not know specifics of model to 
model for spec.


The 88 catalog lists the Voyageur at 24 lbs.  Also, catalog shows the SL 
Circuit 23" frames used SP down tubes, probably for extra rigidity. 


My Voyageur probably has the 10/7/10 wall due to touring design and since 
the 84 Voyageur SP used the actual SP tubing (hence the 'SP' in the name) 
which was 10/7/10.  The 3 Road models probably had 9/6/9 per the lower 
overall weight.   

Cromor is a cold drawn, welded tube.  SL/SP were seamless.  Cromor still 
has respectable yield strength at 110 kpsi, higher actually than the 
Rivendell SILVER tubes on the Sam at 70 kpsi yield.

I am currently trying to get a 80's Tenax catalog spec.  Would you want the 
file also???

John Hawrylak
Woodstown NJ


On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 7:44:36 PM UTC-5, Bill Lindsay wrote:

> So I sold a few bikes to pay for a mountain bike.  You guys snapped up two 
> of my three 650B bikes, and wanted the frames, but not the wheels.  
> So I found myself with a surplus of 650B tires, and tried to sell off 
> some, but you hardly bought any of them.  
> So, it was irresistible, unavoidable that I buy a cheap vintage road bike 
> to do a 650B conversion on.  Right?  Right!?
>
> I worked at a Schwinn Shop through the mid 1980s, so I have a long 
> standing softspot for mid-1980s Schwinn road bikes.  A standard ebay outing 
> includes searches for Paramount, Peloton, Super Sport, Prologue, Circuit, 
> Premis.  They were all made either in the US or Japan.  Many had Columbus 
> or Prestige tubing.  They had great fork crowns for 650B, generally.  The 
> only downer was that virtually all of them did not have fender eyelets.  A 
> recent find had me looking through an archived scan of the 1985 Schwinn 
> Catalog.  Flipping the virtual pages I was reminded of a model I had been 
> overlooking: the Schwinn Tempo.  The 1985 Tempo was the number 4 model road 
> bike (Paramount > Peloton > Super Sport > Tempo).  The Super Sport and 
> Tempo both have a Columbus "Tenax" label, but the not-very-well-kept-secret 
> was that Schwinn bought up a whole mess of cosmetic blem Columbus SL and SP 
> at a discount and agreed to label it Tenax.  Thanks to the sneaky light 
> tubing, the stock bikes were respectably light.  List weight of the Tempo 
> was 22 lbs.  An added plus is that the Tempo was the only "Competition" 
> road bike that year with eyelets for fenders.  
>
> So, having added the Tempo to my standard search, I found one almost 
> instantly on ebay.  It looks like a completely stock attic-find.  I got it 
> at a half-way decent price ($249) and a horrible shipping cost ($95), but 
> now I've got my Winter Project, again, thanks to you.  I'm going to do a 
> 650B conversion on this nice 1985 Schwinn Tempo.
>
> 
>
> Anybody want to trade me or sell me a Nitto stem with a 25.4 clamp 
> diameter and a 10cm or 11cm extension?
>
>
> Bill Lindsay
>
> El Cerrito, CA
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Polished Sugino Crankset

[Mark Reimer]

If that doesn't work out, you could always get TA Specialites rings. I have 
a set on my road bike and have never encountered rings with a higher 
'bling' factor. They are so shiney :)

On Tuesday, November 24, 2015 at 1:39:49 PM UTC-6, Garth wrote:
>
>
> In that case , let your finger do the walkin' with search engines and 
> forums .  Or, get something better , the Mighty Tour double. This is their 
> high end "touring" type crank equal to and/or better than the 
> Alpina/Cospea. These have the PE110S rings that are polished (and what is 
> on the Alpina), which are also available singly. The best $$ place to get 
> these is from Alex's in Japan. You can get just the arms or the complete 
> with your choice of rings !  
>
>
> http://www.alexscycle.com/cranks/fixed-non-njs-1-2-3-4-5-6/sugino-mighty-tour-pcd110-crank.html
>
> http://www.alexscycle.com/cranks/road-1-2-3-4-5-6/sugino-mighty-tour-crank-set.html
>
> On Tuesday, November 24, 2015 at 1:33:44 PM UTC-5, LBleriot wrote:
>>
>> Thanks guys but the current version of the Alpina has matte alu rings. 
>> The old version I'm looking for had polished rings. I'm looking for that 
>> version sold by VO a few years ago. 
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Doug Williams]

Yes, and you also disrespect your family when you fail to wear a helmet in 
your car or while walking on the street, both of which are more dangerous 
than bicycling. This is just the kind of "helmet shaming" that I am talking 
about.

On Tuesday, November 24, 2015 at 1:40:03 PM UTC-8, Will wrote:
>
> Kelly,
>
> I think there's another perspective that has not been mentioned here...
>
> When I was sitting outside the ER waiting for the Cat-Scans on my wife, I 
> realized that her injuries were not simply hers. Her injuries belonged to 
> our children, our parents, our neighbors... 
>
> The decision to wear, or not wear, a helmet isn't singular. We have 
> networks of family and friends who suffer when we are injured. The assumed 
> risk is not singular. Families and friends pick up the pieces. Jan Heine 
> was very fortunate to have a good friend drop everything to shepherd him 
> home from Taiwan. 
>
> The decision to mitigate risk should recognize those who will bear the 
> burden of loss. It's not about laws. It's about common sense. It's about 
> respect for your loved ones.  
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Patrick Moore]

Moderator! We need you!

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[RBW] Re: New Winter Project: Another 650B conversion, thanks in part to you

[Bill Lindsay]

Thanks John for the offer.  Since the history on the actual tubing of my 
Tempo is cloudy at best, I confess I won't be dwelling on the catalog spec 
of the tubing that my frame *might *be built out of.  I'm going to 
concentrate on executing a nice build and then try to have a good time 
riding it.  

If it isn't any trouble, I wouldn't mind seeing the Tenax catalog spec, but 
it's not critical.  Thanks again

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Tuesday, November 24, 2015 at 4:21:43 PM UTC-8, John Hawrylak wrote:
>
> Columbus Tenax was Cromor.  Ref Nova Cycles, a long time Columbus 
> distributor
>
>
> http://www.cycle-frames.com/bicycle-frame-tubing/COLUMBUS-2010-CHROMOR-ROAD-TUBESET.html
>
> Here is their write up
>
> This tubeset, Chromor/Thron has a long history that includes  Touring 
> frames for Schwinn in the 80's and 90's with Prelude and Tempo models. 
> Schwinn manufactured approximately 25,000 of these frames during this time 
> using the name Tenax. We sold Chromor and later Thron as Columbus entry 
> level pro tubes just below SL/SP.
>
> I have an 88 Panasonic Schwinn Voyageur with Tenax, and I was curious as 
> to the wall thickness.
>
> Note, in 2010, they showed a TT/DT wall of 0.9/0.6/0.9.  I recently 
> e-mailed Nova and asked if the 2010 specs were the same as the 80's.  I was 
> interested since the 80's specs showed 1.0/0.7/1.0.  Their reply was to the 
> point (they probably get these questions a lot):
>
> Schwinn used both wall thicknesses and I do not know specifics of model to 
> model for spec.
>
>
> The 88 catalog lists the Voyageur at 24 lbs.  Also, catalog shows the SL 
> Circuit 23" frames used SP down tubes, probably for extra rigidity. 
>
>
> My Voyageur probably has the 10/7/10 wall due to touring design and since 
> the 84 Voyageur SP used the actual SP tubing (hence the 'SP' in the name) 
> which was 10/7/10.  The 3 Road models probably had 9/6/9 per the lower 
> overall weight.   
>
> Cromor is a cold drawn, welded tube.  SL/SP were seamless.  Cromor still 
> has respectable yield strength at 110 kpsi, higher actually than the 
> Rivendell SILVER tubes on the Sam at 70 kpsi yield.
>
> I am currently trying to get a 80's Tenax catalog spec.  Would you want 
> the file also???
>
> John Hawrylak
> Woodstown NJ
>
>
> On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 7:44:36 PM UTC-5, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
>> So I sold a few bikes to pay for a mountain bike.  You guys snapped up 
>> two of my three 650B bikes, and wanted the frames, but not the wheels.  
>> So I found myself with a surplus of 650B tires, and tried to sell off 
>> some, but you hardly bought any of them.  
>> So, it was irresistible, unavoidable that I buy a cheap vintage road bike 
>> to do a 650B conversion on.  Right?  Right!?
>>
>> I worked at a Schwinn Shop through the mid 1980s, so I have a long 
>> standing softspot for mid-1980s Schwinn road bikes.  A standard ebay outing 
>> includes searches for Paramount, Peloton, Super Sport, Prologue, Circuit, 
>> Premis.  They were all made either in the US or Japan.  Many had Columbus 
>> or Prestige tubing.  They had great fork crowns for 650B, generally.  The 
>> only downer was that virtually all of them did not have fender eyelets.  A 
>> recent find had me looking through an archived scan of the 1985 Schwinn 
>> Catalog.  Flipping the virtual pages I was reminded of a model I had been 
>> overlooking: the Schwinn Tempo.  The 1985 Tempo was the number 4 model road 
>> bike (Paramount > Peloton > Super Sport > Tempo).  The Super Sport and 
>> Tempo both have a Columbus "Tenax" label, but the not-very-well-kept-secret 
>> was that Schwinn bought up a whole mess of cosmetic blem Columbus SL and SP 
>> at a discount and agreed to label it Tenax.  Thanks to the sneaky light 
>> tubing, the stock bikes were respectably light.  List weight of the Tempo 
>> was 22 lbs.  An added plus is that the Tempo was the only "Competition" 
>> road bike that year with eyelets for fenders.  
>>
>> So, having added the Tempo to my standard search, I found one almost 
>> instantly on ebay.  It looks like a completely stock attic-find.  I got it 
>> at a half-way decent price ($249) and a horrible shipping cost ($95), but 
>> now I've got my Winter Project, again, thanks to you.  I'm going to do a 
>> 650B conversion on this nice 1985 Schwinn Tempo.
>>
>> 
>>
>> Anybody want to trade me or sell me a Nitto stem with a 25.4 clamp 
>> diameter and a 10cm or 11cm extension?
>>
>>
>> Bill Lindsay
>>
>> El Cerrito, CA
>>
>>

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[RBW] FS: Velocity Dyad/XT/formula wheelset 700c 40h

[drew]

ok. these are only about a year and a half old, and have been replaced by a 
less heavy duty set. 

*rear*
700c velocity dyad laced to NOS(at the time) XT hub. 40h 135mm spacing, 
accepts up to 7spd cassette. built by golden saddle cyclery here in los 
angeles. i researched the hell out of the xt hub, and now i cant remember 
much about it other than it is from the time when xt hubs were made to run 
forever. 

*front*
dyad laced to stock formula hub. 40h 

*cassette*
11-34t 7 speed

still in really great condition. probably about 2500 miles on them. built 
for a vintage touring bike project, then moved to my hunqapillar until i 
got my camping setup down to a light weight. bombproof. good for a tandem 
or super loaded bike or something. 

thinking 190$ shipped. i think that is pretty reasonable? open to partial 
trades. pics upon request. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: AHH Tubing Sticker on Frame

[John Hawrylak]

Benz concluded on the usefulness of the tubing sticker on the Sam
"Put another way, what good are these data going to do for the end-user?"

I agree, especially since it shows lower end tubing, which while fine for 
the job at hand, could be stronger for no to little cost increase.  I just 
thought a Riv would have above average tubing.

I agree on the AHH not needing a sticker, since it is some name brand 
tubing.  But lack of any sticker, suggest the tubing may be run of mill and 
not above average.

John Hawrylak
Woodstown NJ

On Tuesday, November 24, 2015 at 12:14:49 AM UTC-5, Benz, Sunnyvale, CA 
wrote:

> Once upon a time, I read one of Grant's posting explaining why the 
> identification of tubing is not as important as what many will make it out 
> to be. Coming from a tradition of Italian racing bicycles, I cynically 
> disagreed then, but have since come around as I read more, and learned 
> more. There are many things orders of magnitude more important than the 
> specifications of the constituent tubings. For example, if the frame 
> dimensions fits your riding style, if the tubings are well put together, 
> and (if you're a Jan Heine "planing" adherent) what the tubing thicknesses 
> and diameters are, all come immediately to mind. Furthermore, bicycle tubes 
> hardly ever fail from lack of tensile strength, especially Rivendell's 
> bicycles that tend to be overbuilt (as is their philosophy) to last a 
> lifetime. Grant touched upon topics like the consideration for where 
> strength *is needed*, like chainstays tend to see higher stress than 
> seatstays so using higher strength alloys (or thicker tubing) make sense 
> there; he also had a little discourse on why he believes fork blades should 
> have a lower yield.
>
> From this short discussion, it should be clear that having a tubing 
> sticker doesn't make any sense, especially one that specifies the UTS, 
> yield and elongation (because it's highly likely not all tubes use the 
> identical alloy). I'll rather the experienced designer/builder pick 
> whatever is suitable for its intended use, regardless of whether it's 953, 
> 853 or 725 (to use Reynolds' parlance). Many highly-regarded builders are 
> aligned in this vein. Put another way, what good are these data going to do 
> for the end-user?
>
> Finally, I think that Rivendell's new tubing sticker is tongue-in-cheek.
>
>
>
> On Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 12:28:49 PM UTC-8, John Hawrylak wrote:
>>
>> Zach
>>  
>> thanks for the reply.  The % of elements indicate it is Cr-Moly 4130 
>> steel, 1% Cr 0.2% Mo, is the major alloying elements giving the steel 
>> certain properties.  In contrast, Reynolds 531 used Mangenese instead of Mo.
>>  
>> The 2 values are the yield stress (used to design the frame) and ultimate 
>> tensile strength (where it breaks).  You can compare these values to other 
>> tubing manufacturers like Columbus, Reynolds, True Temper, Tange, etc.  The 
>> higher value indicates a stronger steel.
>>  
>> John Hawrylak
>> Woodstown NJ
>>  
>> On 11/22/15, Zach Duval wrote:
>>  
>> Actually, the sticker mentioned above, and that same sticker on my Sam, 
>> are recent developments; I was surprised to find it when the frame arrived. 
>> Grant has in fact repeatedly stressed the unimportant of specific tubing in 
>> a frame; however, he does seem proud of these proprietary tubes. 
>>
>> I like the science-year feel I get from seeing the sticker on my frame, 
>> but I confess the percentages mean very little to me.
>>
>> -- 
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>

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[RBW] Re: FS: Velocity Dyad/XT/formula wheelset 700c 40h

[MartyG]

PM sent


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[RBW] Re: New Winter Project: Another 650B conversion, thanks in part to you

[El Sapo]

I still have a soft spot for the Schwinn Varsity that my dad bought me. It 
was orange, probably 1965 or 1966. Rode it really hard and 4-5 years later 
I broke the frame. The old man took me to the Schwinn shop to get it fixed 
and they gave me a brand new bike. Schwinn fan for life.   

On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 4:44:36 PM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:

> So I sold a few bikes to pay for a mountain bike.  You guys snapped up two 
> of my three 650B bikes, and wanted the frames, but not the wheels.  
> So I found myself with a surplus of 650B tires, and tried to sell off 
> some, but you hardly bought any of them.  
> So, it was irresistible, unavoidable that I buy a cheap vintage road bike 
> to do a 650B conversion on.  Right?  Right!?
>
> I worked at a Schwinn Shop through the mid 1980s, so I have a long 
> standing softspot for mid-1980s Schwinn road bikes.  A standard ebay outing 
> includes searches for Paramount, Peloton, Super Sport, Prologue, Circuit, 
> Premis.  They were all made either in the US or Japan.  Many had Columbus 
> or Prestige tubing.  They had great fork crowns for 650B, generally.  The 
> only downer was that virtually all of them did not have fender eyelets.  A 
> recent find had me looking through an archived scan of the 1985 Schwinn 
> Catalog.  Flipping the virtual pages I was reminded of a model I had been 
> overlooking: the Schwinn Tempo.  The 1985 Tempo was the number 4 model road 
> bike (Paramount > Peloton > Super Sport > Tempo).  The Super Sport and 
> Tempo both have a Columbus "Tenax" label, but the not-very-well-kept-secret 
> was that Schwinn bought up a whole mess of cosmetic blem Columbus SL and SP 
> at a discount and agreed to label it Tenax.  Thanks to the sneaky light 
> tubing, the stock bikes were respectably light.  List weight of the Tempo 
> was 22 lbs.  An added plus is that the Tempo was the only "Competition" 
> road bike that year with eyelets for fenders.  
>
> So, having added the Tempo to my standard search, I found one almost 
> instantly on ebay.  It looks like a completely stock attic-find.  I got it 
> at a half-way decent price ($249) and a horrible shipping cost ($95), but 
> now I've got my Winter Project, again, thanks to you.  I'm going to do a 
> 650B conversion on this nice 1985 Schwinn Tempo.
>
> 
>
> Anybody want to trade me or sell me a Nitto stem with a 25.4 clamp 
> diameter and a 10cm or 11cm extension?
>
>
> Bill Lindsay
>
> El Cerrito, CA
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[dougP]

Come to think of it, hasn't nearly every helmet thread similarly 
degenerated?  

On Tuesday, November 24, 2015 at 4:35:29 PM UTC-8, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> Moderator! We need you!
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: FS: Waterford Rivendell Road Standard/Custom

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Well, I don't think it can be a stock Road Standard, at least not from the 
catalog year posted, because those apparently had clearance for a 700x35, 
whereas this frame does not go wider than 30. Unless one or the other fact 
is incorrect. Or it changed year to year and this is a different year than 
the catalog. 

In terms of price, I think there was a discussion recently about a Wilbury 
that was actually listed *over* the old price, and that was not, as this 
one is, an almost 20-year old frame. Don't forget that in addition to 
possible intrinsic value, and collectability/rareness, there is 
inflation--a similar frame today goes for at least a grand more. Then there 
is simple desirability: Try buying a Schwinn Paramount 

 
for the listed catalog price. 




On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 3:57:51 PM UTC-5, Ryan Fleming wrote:
>
> I think it is a 1996/1997 and the $1350 asking price is about the same as 
> it was then  (1.2-1.35K). Nice as the frame is,I don't believe it's a 
> custom and  $1350 might be a big ask... 
>
> On Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 6:56:31 AM UTC-6, Fullylugged wrote:
>>
>> Nice looking bike. You can date it by the serial # on the bottom bracket. 
>> The usual Waterford dating method is used.  Yours has no head tube 
>> extension and appears to have a level TT, so an earlier date might be 
>> right. Possibly repainted along the way, because it has later DT decals.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: FS: Waterford Rivendell Road Standard/Custom

[Eric Daume]

700x35 clearance in 1996 is likely different than 700x35 clearance today.
It seems like all tires were overstated for width back then, whereas just
some are today.

Eric

On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 8:17 PM, 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch <
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> Well, I don't think it can be a stock Road Standard, at least not from the
> catalog year posted, because those apparently had clearance for a 700x35,
> whereas this frame does not go wider than 30. Unless one or the other fact
> is incorrect. Or it changed year to year and this is a different year than
> the catalog.
>
> In terms of price, I think there was a discussion recently about a Wilbury
> that was actually listed *over* the old price, and that was not, as this
> one is, an almost 20-year old frame. Don't forget that in addition to
> possible intrinsic value, and collectability/rareness, there is
> inflation--a similar frame today goes for at least a grand more. Then there
> is simple desirability: Try buying a Schwinn Paramount
> 
> for the listed catalog price.
> 
>
>
>
> On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 3:57:51 PM UTC-5, Ryan Fleming wrote:
>>
>> I think it is a 1996/1997 and the $1350 asking price is about the same as
>> it was then  (1.2-1.35K). Nice as the frame is,I don't believe it's a
>> custom and  $1350 might be a big ask...
>>
>> On Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 6:56:31 AM UTC-6, Fullylugged wrote:
>>>
>>> Nice looking bike. You can date it by the serial # on the bottom
>>> bracket. The usual Waterford dating method is used.  Yours has no head tube
>>> extension and appears to have a level TT, so an earlier date might be
>>> right. Possibly repainted along the way, because it has later DT decals.
>>
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[RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Will]

If data indicates that helmets mitigate head damage and if you choose to 
ignore that data... whose lives have you compromised? 

Yours? For sure. 

Your wife's, your children... well... maybe the shame label is appropriate. 
I'll accept that opinion. 

On Tuesday, November 24, 2015 at 5:37:13 PM UTC-6, Doug Williams wrote:
>
> Yes, and you also disrespect your family when you fail to wear a helmet in 
> your car or while walking on the street, both of which are more dangerous 
> than bicycling. This is just the kind of "helmet shaming" that I am talking 
> about.
>
> On Tuesday, November 24, 2015 at 1:40:03 PM UTC-8, Will wrote:
>>
>> Kelly,
>>
>> I think there's another perspective that has not been mentioned here...
>>
>> When I was sitting outside the ER waiting for the Cat-Scans on my wife, I 
>> realized that her injuries were not simply hers. Her injuries belonged to 
>> our children, our parents, our neighbors... 
>>
>> The decision to wear, or not wear, a helmet isn't singular. We have 
>> networks of family and friends who suffer when we are injured. The assumed 
>> risk is not singular. Families and friends pick up the pieces. Jan Heine 
>> was very fortunate to have a good friend drop everything to shepherd him 
>> home from Taiwan. 
>>
>> The decision to mitigate risk should recognize those who will bear the 
>> burden of loss. It's not about laws. It's about common sense. It's about 
>> respect for your loved ones.  
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>


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[RBW] Re: FS: 60 cm Hillborne frameset (single top tube, canti brakes)

[gordo]

Sam is sold!  Thanks to all who expressed interest.

On Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 6:29:47 PM UTC-8, gordo wrote:
>
> A new project means it's time for Sam to find a new owner.
>
> *Sale includes:*
>
> - 60 cm first-generation green frame/fork (single top tube, cantilever 
> brakes)
> - silver Chris King headset (bought new and installed two years ago)
> - Shimano bb (UN-55?) - also two years old
> - Nitto mini-front rack (a few years old)
>
> Photos can be found in the ad here: 
> http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/bik/5327563527.html
>
> The frame/fork is in great structural condition. However, as the pictures 
> show, there are lots of scrapes and nicks as this bike was used as a 
> commuter and bike camping rig.  I personally like the cosmetic 
> imperfections, but the price still offers a good deal should the new owner 
> wish to have a repaint or powder coat done.
>
> $800 + shipping.  Subtract $50 if you don't want the rack.
>
> I'm located in San Francisco and would be very excited to find a local 
> buyer.
>

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[RBW] Re: FS: Waterford Rivendell Road Standard/Custom

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Forgot to add, if it did actually clear 35mm tires, like the one in the 
posted catalog, or a current Rodeo, I suspect it would be sold already. 
30mm is pretty skinny for most Rivnicks.

On Tuesday, November 24, 2015 at 8:17:45 PM UTC-5, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>
> Well, I don't think it can be a stock Road Standard, at least not from the 
> catalog year posted, because those apparently had clearance for a 700x35, 
> whereas this frame does not go wider than 30. Unless one or the other fact 
> is incorrect. Or it changed year to year and this is a different year than 
> the catalog. 
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: FS: Waterford Rivendell Road Standard/Custom

[Bruce Herbitter]

If you switch it to 650B, you can get 38mm pari motos in there! 

Sent from my iPad

> On Nov 24, 2015, at 8:52 PM, Eric Daume  wrote:
> 
> 700x35 clearance in 1996 is likely different than 700x35 clearance today. It 
> seems like all tires were overstated for width back then, whereas just some 
> are today.
> 
> Eric
> 
>> On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 8:17 PM, 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch 
>>  wrote:
>> Well, I don't think it can be a stock Road Standard, at least not from the 
>> catalog year posted, because those apparently had clearance for a 700x35, 
>> whereas this frame does not go wider than 30. Unless one or the other fact 
>> is incorrect. Or it changed year to year and this is a different year than 
>> the catalog. 
>> 
>> In terms of price, I think there was a discussion recently about a Wilbury 
>> that was actually listed over the old price, and that was not, as this one 
>> is, an almost 20-year old frame. Don't forget that in addition to possible 
>> intrinsic value, and collectability/rareness, there is inflation--a similar 
>> frame today goes for at least a grand more. Then there is simple 
>> desirability: Try buying a Schwinn Paramount for the listed catalog price.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 3:57:51 PM UTC-5, Ryan Fleming wrote:
>>> I think it is a 1996/1997 and the $1350 asking price is about the same as 
>>> it was then  (1.2-1.35K). Nice as the frame is,I don't believe it's a 
>>> custom and  $1350 might be a big ask... 
>>> 
 On Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 6:56:31 AM UTC-6, Fullylugged wrote:
 Nice looking bike. You can date it by the serial # on the bottom bracket. 
 The usual Waterford dating method is used.  Yours has no head tube 
 extension and appears to have a level TT, so an earlier date might be 
 right. Possibly repainted along the way, because it has later DT decals.
>> 
>> -- 
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[RBW] Re: Third flat on Marathons

[Metin Uz]

OK, I have never ridden a Marathon tire on a brevet. But I used a pair for 
commuting, and I know I am at least 1 mile per hour slower on the flats 
compared to a tire like Conti GP4000S. For me a typical 600K could mean 
about 26 hours of riding time. If I take out 6 hours where tire resistance 
is not a big factor (significant climbs and descents), I would lose 1 mph 
over 20 hours, or I would be behind by 20 miles. This is a very rough 
estimate - I may actually hang in a paceline and keep the same speed some 
of the time, but I would be expending more energy which means I would be 
paying for it later.

Paradoxically, tire resistance makes a bigger difference for slower riders. 
If you ride faster, work against air resistance becomes a larger percentage 
of your total power expenditure, so you gain less by using faster tires.

On Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 10:15:04 AM UTC-8, ted wrote:
>
> Metin,
>
> I don't mean to be argumentative, just curious. Could you explain how you 
> know that using Marathons would cost you at least an hour in a 600K ride?
>
> regards
> Ted
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Eric Norris]

Not that cycling is that dangerous, but I'd like to see the data showing that 
"walking on the street" is more dangerous than riding a bike. On a personal 
level, I've lost several friends/acquaintances over the past year, killed by 
motor vehicles while riding their bikes. I can't think of a single incident 
among my friends, fatal or otherwise, that happened while they were "walking on 
the street." 

More info, please.

--Eric N
www.CampyOnly.com
CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com
Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy

> On Nov 24, 2015, at 5:37 PM, Doug Williams  wrote:
> 
> Yes, and you also disrespect your family when you fail to wear a helmet in 
> your car or while walking on the street, both of which are more dangerous 
> than bicycling. This is just the kind of "helmet shaming" that I am talking 
> about.
> 
>> On Tuesday, November 24, 2015 at 1:40:03 PM UTC-8, Will wrote:
>> Kelly,
>> 
>> I think there's another perspective that has not been mentioned here...
>> 
>> When I was sitting outside the ER waiting for the Cat-Scans on my wife, I 
>> realized that her injuries were not simply hers. Her injuries belonged to 
>> our children, our parents, our neighbors... 
>> 
>> The decision to wear, or not wear, a helmet isn't singular. We have networks 
>> of family and friends who suffer when we are injured. The assumed risk is 
>> not singular. Families and friends pick up the pieces. Jan Heine was very 
>> fortunate to have a good friend drop everything to shepherd him home from 
>> Taiwan. 
>> 
>> The decision to mitigate risk should recognize those who will bear the 
>> burden of loss. It's not about laws. It's about common sense. It's about 
>> respect for your loved ones.  
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Steve Palincsar]

On 11/24/2015 09:25 PM, Eric Norris wrote:
Not that cycling is that dangerous, but I'd like to see the data 
showing that "walking on the street" is more dangerous than riding a 
bike.



Or that walking on the street presents a danger that is specifically 
addressed by the wearing of a helmet.



On a personal level, I've lost several friends/acquaintances over the 
past year, killed by motor vehicles while riding their bikes. I can't 
think of a single incident among my friends, fatal or otherwise, that 
happened while they were "walking on the street."


There are plenty of pedestrians run down by motor vehicles, many of whom 
are killed each year.  However, it's unlikely that wearing a helmet 
would have saved many.   It's basically a specious argument.


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Re: [RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Steve Palincsar]

which is why such discussions are called "helmet wars"

On 11/24/2015 08:42 PM, dougP wrote:
Come to think of it, hasn't nearly every helmet thread similarly 
degenerated?


On Tuesday, November 24, 2015 at 4:35:29 PM UTC-8, Patrick Moore wrote:

Moderator! We need you!




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Re: [RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Edwin W]

Eric,

The numbers are something like 600 deaths a year from cycling, 4000 a year from 
walking and 30,000 a year from motor vehicles. The numbers doing these 
activities vary wildly of course. If you know several people who were killed on 
bikes last year, you know several of the 600 or so who were killed. I think 
most people recognize that biking is more dangerous (in the U.S.) per mile, but 
it is closer per hour in this mode of transport. I think biking sober, slowly 
(under 15 mph) and with traffic laws is a very safe mode of transport. Safer 
with a helmet. Like these other fairly safe modes of transport. 
Think of the 30,000 deaths and 280,000 brain injuries from the relatively safe 
practice of driving. Many would have benefitted from a helmet even though it 
seems nuts to recommend it for all drivers. Many of them have loved ones that 
are caring for them. My sons teacher hit a deer and the antlers pierced her 
daughter's skull. She is well now, thank goodness. That is one type of injury 
that would have been prevented by a helmet, but ice never heard it suggested. 
I think the same for bikers: not so dangerous to need a helmet if done 
according to traffic laws (including lights at night) on city streets and 
sober. 
I think it is best to advocate for more safety measures for vulnerable 
populations and in more dangerous environments. Does everyone think that bike 
riders in the Netherlands should all don helmets, in the safest cycling 
environment in the world? Some may, but most would admit that biking can be 
done safely without a helmet in certain situations, but others are riskier and 
a helmet may be considered. Jonathan Brandt's picture the other day, leaning in 
hard and going fast without a helmet reminded me that most doing that then 
didn't wear helmets and most doing it now do. Probably should. 

Everything in moderation! Now the moderators can shit this thread down before I 
post any more!

Wishing you all the safest of travels, regardless of the mode or helmet status,
Edwin

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Re: [RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Edwin W]

Please excuse all the typos and autocorrects! Some more Freudian than others. 

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[RBW] Re: FS: Waterford Rivendell Road Standard/Custom

[Joe Bernard]

My experience with used Riv prices over the years is that they fluctuate much 
more than, say, Bridgestones. This is especially true with "Rivendell" branded 
frames because there's a good bit of confusion between standard Waterfords and 
the later customs. Plus A/Rs seem to have a particular cult following, and only 
a few Mountains were ever made. In other words, a Riv is worth something you 
think is reasonable/possible, minus whatever folks will actually pay. 

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[RBW] Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[jpp]

Oh wow...once again we are reminded why the helmet discussion is supposed to be 
banned

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Re: [RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Can someone tell me how being killed by a motor vehicle on a bicycle is any 
different than being killed by a motor vehicle while walking? If it can 
save you in a bike/car collision, it can save you in a person/car 
collision. Leaving aside any "data" that proves or disproves the safety 
value of helmets, I would hazard a guess that the existence of cars is the 
major reason most cyclists wear helmets.
Will wrote:

*If data indicates that helmets mitigate head damage and if you choose to 
ignore that data... whose lives have you compromised? Yours? For sure.* 

That is simply putting your values onto another person. Compared to not 
existing for the last 13.82 billion years, and not existing till the end of 
time, we're all here for a really, really really short visit, whether that 
be 1 month or 100 years. To some degree, we all get to choose the risks we 
are willing to live with (ha ha) during our little frolic. Skydiving. 
Bathtub gin. Getting married. Pulling the tags off your mattress. Then 
there is fate. And the government--obviously the sheer number of deaths 
from automobile accidents before seatbelts was costing society a lot of 
money. It still does--about 871 billion a year 

 
as of 2010. Because now we have seatbelts--and phones, and movies, and 
internet, and typing, in a car.  But then, we humans do weird stuff. Like 
the war on terror. That cost trillions, and all it did was create more 
terrorists. We're not very good at addressing root causes. We prefer 
ineffective band-aids that usually not only add unnecessary complexity, but 
also make things an order of magnitude worse. The idea that we must all run 
around with helmets is like blaming the victim. Most of the people behind 
these types of studies have some kind of agenda, and not always the one you 
would think. 

People ignore "data" all the time. For instance, there is plenty of data 
available that cars are a factor in climate change, among numerous other 
ills they cause, including sprawl, huge infrastructure costs, etc. etc. 
etc. Using a 2-3,000 pound object to move around a single human being? Now 
*that* is compromising all of us. Insisting everyone wear helmets, thereby 
reducing the number of people who bicycle? Nah. What we should really be 
doing is not designing "better" helmets. We should be designing cars that 
can't maim people. Better, we should be encouraging people not to use cars. 
What we should be doing is insisting those caught texting or phoning and 
causing harm in a car go to jail. Every time. For a long time. But we are 
not only good at ignoring data, we are champions of rationalizing 
irrational beliefs and behaviors. 

Meanwhile, much more relevant, my Clementine is due Monday!



On Tuesday, November 24, 2015 at 9:45:55 PM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
>
> On 11/24/2015 09:25 PM, Eric Norris wrote:
>
> Not that cycling is that dangerous, but I'd like to see the data showing 
> that "walking on the street" is more dangerous than riding a bike. 
>
>
>
> Or that walking on the street presents a danger that is specifically 
> addressed by the wearing of a helmet.
>
>
> On a personal level, I've lost several friends/acquaintances over the past 
> year, killed by motor vehicles while riding their bikes. I can't think of a 
> single incident among my friends, fatal or otherwise, that happened while 
> they were "walking on the street."
>
>
> There are plenty of pedestrians run down by motor vehicles, many of whom 
> are killed each year.  However, it's unlikely that wearing a helmet would 
> have saved many.   It's basically a specious argument.
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Yes, the tendency toward dual thinking --must be either this or that--that 
pervades most of modern thought, is particularly on display in certain 
areas. In cycling, it generally involves chain lube and helmet wearing. I 
believe iBob no longer allows these types of discussions. The main problem 
is that with this kind of issue, most people do not enter into the 
discussion with the idea that they might, just might, be persuaded to 
change their minds. With minds sewn shut like that, it sets the pattern for 
a thread to unravel into incivility at some point. (Sorry.)

On Tuesday, November 24, 2015 at 8:42:39 PM UTC-5, dougP wrote:
>
> Come to think of it, hasn't nearly every helmet thread similarly 
> degenerated?  
>
> On Tuesday, November 24, 2015 at 4:35:29 PM UTC-8, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>> Moderator! We need you!
>>
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: New Winter Project: Another 650B conversion, thanks in part to you

[Lungimsam]

So are modern Schwinns of the same quality as the 60's-80's Schwinns?

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Re: [RBW] Re: AHH Tubing Sticker on Frame

[ted]

http://rivbike.tumblr.com/post/3218082349/the-t-question-long-post-dry-reading

I think it's wrong to presume the absence of a tubing sticker on the AHH means 
the tubes are just average.
The above blog post names the types of the various tubes in an AHH. They don't 
sound just average to me, though I don't know much about tubes so ...

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[RBW] Re: Third flat on Marathons

[ted]

Metin,

Thanks for taking the time to explain your reasoning / basis for that. I 
appreciate it.
Also I hope it didn't seem like I was calling you out or anything, really I was 
just curious.

Regards
Ted

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[RBW] Re: centerpull recommendations for a sam.

[Lungimsam]

Where can one purchase Mafac center pulls? Are they long reach enough for 650b?

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[RBW] Re: centerpull recommendations for a sam.

[ted]

Ebay. The raids are quite long. 

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[RBW] Re: New Winter Project: Another 650B conversion, thanks in part to you

[David Banzer]

Now I'm missing the Tempo I had a few years back. I had it set up as a 1x8 
- could've used a taller stem.
http://i821.photobucket.com/albums/zz136/dabanzer/0dc2dd1d.jpg
David
Chicago

On Tuesday, November 24, 2015 at 3:06:44 PM UTC-6, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> Yes, David, good call.  It's called A-type, but yes it's a special DT 
> braze-on.  I have several ideas about that.  At first, I plan on just using 
> the shiftlevers that are already there.  I had a similar situation with my 
> last vintage 650B conversion, a 1985 Miyata 912 which had the braze on for 
> the shifters on top of the downtube.  The shifters looked kind of like this:
>
>
> 
>
> I forget what that type of shifter was called.  A-type braze-ons give more 
> choices than that.   
>
>
> On Tuesday, November 24, 2015 at 12:40:41 PM UTC-8, David Banzer wrote:
>>
>> The 1984 Tempo I used to have had Shimano B-type (I think that's what 
>> they're called) dt shifter braze-ons which aren't compatible with standard 
>> shifters. Not sure if the 1985 model had those or not. There's workarounds 
>> for sure. My '84 Voyageur with these stops became a single speed - easy 
>> solution. 
>> Also, those decals I believe were applied over the clearcoat so they can 
>> be peeled right off if you're inclined. 
>> David
>> Chicago 
>
>

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[RBW] Re: New Winter Project: Another 650B conversion, thanks in part to you

[Mark Reimer]

Nice!! I'm working on a similar project this winter. I've got a Gios Torino 
Super Record frame from 1982. Real similar to the ones Roger won Paris 
Roubiax on so many times. I'm positive I can fit at least 32mm 650b tires, 
probably 38, and fingers crossed for 42. Gotta test fit soon. I'll be 
adding fender eyelets and other goodies later. Keep this posted with 
photos, I'm curious to follow along! 

On Tuesday, November 24, 2015 at 3:06:44 PM UTC-6, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> Yes, David, good call.  It's called A-type, but yes it's a special DT 
> braze-on.  I have several ideas about that.  At first, I plan on just using 
> the shiftlevers that are already there.  I had a similar situation with my 
> last vintage 650B conversion, a 1985 Miyata 912 which had the braze on for 
> the shifters on top of the downtube.  The shifters looked kind of like this:
>
>
> 
>
> I forget what that type of shifter was called.  A-type braze-ons give more 
> choices than that.   
>
>
> On Tuesday, November 24, 2015 at 12:40:41 PM UTC-8, David Banzer wrote:
>>
>> The 1984 Tempo I used to have had Shimano B-type (I think that's what 
>> they're called) dt shifter braze-ons which aren't compatible with standard 
>> shifters. Not sure if the 1985 model had those or not. There's workarounds 
>> for sure. My '84 Voyageur with these stops became a single speed - easy 
>> solution. 
>> Also, those decals I believe were applied over the clearcoat so they can 
>> be peeled right off if you're inclined. 
>> David
>> Chicago 
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Polished Sugino Crankset

[LBleriot]

Thanks Mark. I found a Zephyr 36T inner but am having trouble locating a 48t 
outer. I may have to bite the bullet and shell out the $ to Harris  Cycles to 
get that mirror finish.

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[RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Kelly]

For those wondering why helmet laws were brought up.  The below quote is in 
the article and why I brought it up.  

"As a result of their findings, Drs. Haider and Joseph said that the next 
step is to create injury prevention programs to increase helmet use among 
bicyclists, to manufacture better helmets, and to develop and enforce 
stricter laws for helmet use. They said that they already participate in 
many prevention programs in Tucson, which is a very bike-friendly city. 

“That’s where future efforts need to focus in on—making helmets that really 
make a difference,” Dr. Joseph said. “Ultimately, the important message is 
patient care and how we can make our patients safer and more protected. We 
need to take this data and take it to the next level and move forward with 
policy and injury prevention, especially for the younger age groups.”


I'm not against helmets, I'm against you telling me or forcing me or 
instructing me to wear a helmet because you think it's the safe way to 
live.  :) 


Kelly
- See more at: 
https://www.facs.org/media/press-releases/2015/haider#sthash.3coagyR5.dpuf

On Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 9:02:05 PM UTC-6, Eric Norris wrote:
>
> Not that this is going to change a single mind on the subject, but it is 
> perhaps of interest to some:
>
> https://www.facs.org/media/press-releases/2015/haider 
>
> And yes, I realize that the helmet and non-helmet camps have firmly 
> established their entrenched positions, which have been expressed many 
> times on this forum.
>
> --Eric Norris
> campyo...@me.com 
> www.campyonly.com
> campyonlyguy.blogspot.com 
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Garth]

  https://youtu.be/AV8nl8zzvQE?t=45s


  > ---woosh -- >
  
  "Steve" 

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[RBW] New Winter Project: Another 650B conversion, thanks in part to you

[David Banzer]

The 1984 Tempo I used to have had Shimano B-type (I think that's what they're 
called) dt shifter braze-ons which aren't compatible with standard shifters. 
Not sure if the 1985 model had those or not. There's workarounds for sure. My 
'84 Voyageur with these stops became a single speed - easy solution. 
Also, those decals I believe were applied over the clearcoat so they can be 
peeled right off if you're inclined. 
David
Chicago 

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[RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Garth]

   So let's see, we are talking about an effort to "prevent" a future which 
does not exist .  Seems to me such effort then would be an "enslavement" . 
Bound by that "might happen" in some other now, but are not present here 
and now.  If I have not now I have nothing as there is nothing else but 
now, the Whole is Now . Thus there is no-where to go , no future to be, no 
past that was. Just Wholly Now !  How Glorious ! 

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[RBW] Re: New Winter Project: Another 650B conversion, thanks in part to you

[Bill Lindsay]

Yes, David, good call.  It's called A-type, but yes it's a special DT 
braze-on.  I have several ideas about that.  At first, I plan on just using 
the shiftlevers that are already there.  I had a similar situation with my 
last vintage 650B conversion, a 1985 Miyata 912 which had the braze on for 
the shifters on top of the downtube.  The shifters looked kind of like this:



I forget what that type of shifter was called.  A-type braze-ons give more 
choices than that.   


On Tuesday, November 24, 2015 at 12:40:41 PM UTC-8, David Banzer wrote:
>
> The 1984 Tempo I used to have had Shimano B-type (I think that's what 
> they're called) dt shifter braze-ons which aren't compatible with standard 
> shifters. Not sure if the 1985 model had those or not. There's workarounds 
> for sure. My '84 Voyageur with these stops became a single speed - easy 
> solution. 
> Also, those decals I believe were applied over the clearcoat so they can 
> be peeled right off if you're inclined. 
> David
> Chicago 

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[RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Will]

Kelly,

I think there's another perspective that has not been mentioned here...

When I was sitting outside the ER waiting for the Cat-Scans on my wife, I 
realized that her injuries were not simply hers. Her injuries belonged to 
our children, our parents, our neighbors... 

The decision to wear, or not wear, a helmet isn't singular. We have 
networks of family and friends who suffer when we are injured. The assumed 
risk is not singular. Families and friends pick up the pieces. Jan Heine 
was very fortunate to have a good friend drop everything to shepherd him 
home from Taiwan. 

The decision to mitigate risk should recognize those who will bear the 
burden of loss. It's not about laws. It's about common sense. It's about 
respect for your loved ones.  





On Tuesday, November 24, 2015 at 3:13:57 PM UTC-6, Kelly wrote:
>
> For those wondering why helmet laws were brought up.  The below quote is 
> in the article and why I brought it up.  
>
> "As a result of their findings, Drs. Haider and Joseph said that the next 
> step is to create injury prevention programs to increase helmet use among 
> bicyclists, to manufacture better helmets, and to develop and enforce 
> stricter laws for helmet use. They said that they already participate in 
> many prevention programs in Tucson, which is a very bike-friendly city. 
>
> “That’s where future efforts need to focus in on—making helmets that 
> really make a difference,” Dr. Joseph said. “Ultimately, the important 
> message is patient care and how we can make our patients safer and more 
> protected. We need to take this data and take it to the next level and move 
> forward with policy and injury prevention, especially for the younger age 
> groups.”
>
>
> I'm not against helmets, I'm against you telling me or forcing me or 
> instructing me to wear a helmet because you think it's the safe way to 
> live.  :) 
>
>
> Kelly
> - See more at: 
> https://www.facs.org/media/press-releases/2015/haider#sthash.3coagyR5.dpuf
>
> On Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 9:02:05 PM UTC-6, Eric Norris wrote:
>>
>> Not that this is going to change a single mind on the subject, but it is 
>> perhaps of interest to some:
>>
>> https://www.facs.org/media/press-releases/2015/haider 
>>
>> And yes, I realize that the helmet and non-helmet camps have firmly 
>> established their entrenched positions, which have been expressed many 
>> times on this forum.
>>
>> --Eric Norris
>> campyo...@me.com
>> www.campyonly.com
>> campyonlyguy.blogspot.com 
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Steve Palincsar]

On 11/24/2015 04:13 PM, Kelly wrote:
For those wondering why helmet laws were brought up.  The below quote 
is in the article and why I brought it up.


"As a result of their findings, Drs. Haider and Joseph said that the 
next step is to create injury prevention programs to increase helmet 
use among bicyclists, to manufacture better helmets, and to develop 
and enforce stricter laws for helmet use. They said that they already 
participate in many prevention programs in Tucson, which is a very 
bike-friendly city.




and so, their opinions and not part of the research


“That’s where future efforts need to focus in on—making helmets that 
really make a difference,” Dr. Joseph said.




I don't think anyone would complain about efforts to make helmets better 
and more effective.  Note the wide-spread interest in MIPS.




“Ultimately, the important message is patient care and how we can make 
our patients safer and more protected. We need to take this data and 
take it to the next level and move forward with policy and injury 
prevention, especially for the younger age groups.”





Are helmet laws for children controversial?   (I honestly have no idea.  
Many local jurisdictions around where I live have them, and if people 
have complained I haven't noticed.)


I'm not against helmets, I'm against you telling me or forcing me or 
instructing me to wear a helmet because you think it's the safe way to 
live.  :)





I'm against criminalizing non-use too.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Anyone order a Joe?

[Joe Bernard]

Mercy. I'm crazy about the butterscotch Saluki, but I've never seen one in my 
size up for sale. I need a butterscotch Joe (for Joe), now I just have to find 
a way to pay for it. Oy!

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[RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Daniel D.]

If I thought bicycling was such a daredevil activity and a crash where a 
helmet may or may not help me was likely, I'd stay on the couch.  But after 
twenty years of wearing one I'll stick to it out of habit, peer pressure, 
and if something bad does happen don't want the newspaper article reporting 
about my lack of helmet use :p.  But riding without is hardly the russian 
roulette some like to make it out to be :henny penny:

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[RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Daniel D.]

I'd probably ride more gingerly if I found myself on a long steep mountain 
descent without a helmet for some reason.  You'd ride it the same helmet or 
no helmet?  

On Tuesday, November 24, 2015 at 10:03:25 AM UTC-8, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> just like the projection on this thread.  It's simply about being sensible 
> v. not.  It's totally stupid to say wearing a helmet makes you want to go 
> faster or wantonly.  
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Scott Henry]

Lets remember that we are all adults here.   We all should be able to
make our own choices and I would hope that we don't have to stoop to
name calling.

Wear what you wear.   Please don't preach.
Cheers,
Scott

On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 1:12 PM, Ron Mc  wrote:
> conspiracy theories?  seriously?  this simply about smart choice v. dumb
> choice.
>
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[RBW] Re: Polished Sugino Crankset

[LBleriot]

Thanks guys but the current version of the Alpina has matte alu rings. The old 
version I'm looking for had polished rings. I'm looking for that version sold 
by VO a few years ago. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Doug Williams]

That's what I have been saying all along. I choose to wear a helmet.  I 
encourage others to wear a helmet. But I don't support mandatory helmet laws 
and I don't insult or shame those who choose not to wear a helmet. That reduces 
ridership. Reduced ridership hurts everyone.

Just Ride! 

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[RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Ron Mc]

The IQ of the counter-helmet arguments continues to plummet.  

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[RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Doug Williams]

Benz brings up a very good point, and we should listen to him because he 
has experience in these things. Yes, many such “studies” are political in 
nature and funded by special interests. So…I don’t know about this study, 
but many such studies have been funded by the automobile insurance industry 
and auto interest groups such as AAA. They don’t get insurance premium 
payments from bicyclists and their members don’t like having to steer 
around bicyclists on the road. So they have an interest in getting 
bicyclists off of the road. Hence…mandatory helmet laws! Mandatory helmet 
laws have proven to be an extremely effective way to reduce ridership. So 
any “study” that recommends mandatory helmet laws without addressing the 
reduced ridership that such laws would cause is immediately suspect.


Bottom line, anybody who recommends mandatory helmet laws without 
acknowledging that mandatory helmet laws reduce bicycle ridership is full 
of BS. I can’t put it in a nicer way. Again, I am pro-helmet. I am an LCI 
(bicycle safety instructor). I teach bicycle safety in schools all the 
time. We give them helmets, we make them wear them during class and we 
encourage them to wear them when the class is over. But many kids (and 
adults) don’t like wearing helmets and making them wear a helmet reduces 
ridership. I wish that this was not true, but my wishing does not change 
the truth. Study after study has proven that mandatory helmet laws reduce 
ridership. My own personal experience is that mandatory helmet use reduces 
ridership. Just ask any potential bicycle rider. The truth that mandatory 
helmet use reduces ridership is intuitively obvious to the casual observer! 
Does anyone honestly dispute this truth? Why don’t mandatory helmet law 
supporters ever mention this simple truth?


Ron Mc wonders if the surgeons have helmets for sale. Probably not, in my 
view; I still put my money on AAA to be the financiers for this study. But 
then the study identifies lower facial injuries as a problem, so maybe they 
want to develop full face helmets for bicyclists and make them mandatory. 
That should get those pesky bicyclists off of the road! Interesting though 
is the fact that the study says nothing about neck injuries. Most other 
studies recognize the fact that helmets INCREASE neck injuries. This is 
because the helmet catches on the ground or other objects and twists the 
neck. I have seen figures that helmets reduce head injuries by 15% but 
increase neck injuries by 11%. I would be interested in reading another 
impartial study that would scientifically measure helmet 
effectiveness…clearly, this study we are discussing here does not qualify.


Steve, I don’t think that Garth and Benz are the least bit cynical. They 
are just realistic.

 

Doug

 

On Tuesday, November 24, 2015 at 8:23:46 AM UTC-8, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> The IQ of the counter-helmet arguments continues to plummet.  
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Ron Mc]

actually, I don't wonder that at all - I think they'e tired of looking at 
needlessly severe trauma, just like my MD friends who abhor motorcycles.  

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[RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Bill]

Do the foil hats that some wear offer some degree of protection???

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[RBW] Saturday Acorn Cruncher Ride

[true]

This past Saturday it was cool and very windy in Dallas but I layered up and 
took out my current fav bike , 
an Nishiki Int'l from 1984 that I rebuilt into a bike that works for me for my 
urban adventures. 

It rides very nicely and is comfortable for me with the bars up high for 
upright riding. 
Your preferences may vary. This is mine.

Currently it is sporting some 650b wheels and Compass tires.

Sunday was the 52nd anniversary of that dark day in Dallas when JFK was struck 
down.
Every time I ride a route that takes me past that site there are always people 
checking it out and Saturday was no exception.

I guess it's a site many visitors and area residents want to check out.

Some of the pics are from the 'grassy knoll', some from Dealey Plaza. and some 
from the triple overpass.
Also there is one with the formerly named Texas School Book Depository' now the 
6th Floor Museum in the background.

The one by "original restored Pegasus' is in front of the Omni Hotel as are the 
giant Christmas Balls.

Also there is one with Reunion Station and the Reunion Tower in the background.

This is one of my favorite type rides to leisurely pedal an area and take pics 
of things that strike me as interesting.
Most of the time there is a bike in the foreground.

I refer to my fall rides as 'Acorn Cruncher' rides. This area has countless oak 
trees and the acorns are falling to the ground
in abundance. I 'crunch' lots of them on my rides this time of year.
Some streets have 'acorn powder' covering patches of the street where the autos 
have pulverized the acorns.

I hope these links work. If not I might need to try again or perhaps I can 
figure out to do one link for the album.

Thanks
Paul in Dallas







http://i793.photobucket.com/albums/yy213/ViewPicsHere/N%20Intl/20151121_113620_zps6v2q0bwo.jpg

http://i793.photobucket.com/albums/yy213/ViewPicsHere/N%20Intl/20151121_120857_zpshwb0nlen.jpg

http://i793.photobucket.com/albums/yy213/ViewPicsHere/N%20Intl/2015-11-21%2012.05.54_zpsxrah1xr2.jpg

http://i793.photobucket.com/albums/yy213/ViewPicsHere/N%20Intl/20151121_121048_zpsocyhsmhp.jpg

http://i793.photobucket.com/albums/yy213/ViewPicsHere/N%20Intl/20151121_121702_zpsvw7zrgsf.jpg

http://i793.photobucket.com/albums/yy213/ViewPicsHere/N%20Intl/20151121_121946_zpssziq0hhs.jpg

http://i793.photobucket.com/albums/yy213/ViewPicsHere/N%20Intl/20151121_123435_zpshwhbdlxd.jpg

http://i793.photobucket.com/albums/yy213/ViewPicsHere/N%20Intl/20151121_123938_zpsmmbbdhub.jpg

http://i793.photobucket.com/albums/yy213/ViewPicsHere/N%20Intl/20151121_124802_zpsx9pd7wlc.jpg

http://i793.photobucket.com/albums/yy213/ViewPicsHere/N%20Intl/20151121_125545_zpscnfiu5ii.jpg

http://i793.photobucket.com/albums/yy213/ViewPicsHere/N%20Intl/20151121_133254_zpskjvyk9gb.jpg

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[RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Ron Mc]

just like the projection on this thread.  It's simply about being sensible 
v. not.  It's totally stupid to say wearing a helmet makes you want to go 
faster or wantonly.  

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[RBW] Re: Third flat on Marathons

[dougP]

Bill:

An interesting question to which I have a single unscientific data point 
anecdote.  One of my touring buds has run Schwalbe Marathon Plus (the REAL 
tank tire) for quite a while for the durability & flat resistance.  He also 
likes to run things to the last mile.  At his last tire replacement, he'd 
worn down to where the blue puncture belt was peeking thru in several spots 
around the tire.  IMHO that's way beyond worn out so call it "the last 
mile".  We weighed both the worn tire and the new one on a postal scale at 
the PO.  Granted, to be correct we should have compared before'n'after for 
the same tire but these things last years.  We were both surprised to find 
that the worn tire was only 2 ozs lighter than the 32 ozs of the new tire, 
or roughly 6%.  Considering the thickness of the tread we were both quite 
surprised at the result.  My guess is most of the weight of a tire is in 
the carcass & beads (anyone up for a little tire dissection?).  I'd be hard 
pressed to detect any difference in ride quality between worn & new, but I 
sure can detect a difference in flat resistance.  

dougP (happily Marathon-ing along)

On Tuesday, November 24, 2015 at 6:53:03 AM UTC-8, Mobile Bill wrote:
>
> Regarding slowness: Since we're getting most of our mileage out of these 
> Marathons AFTER the 3,000 mile mark, you have to wonder what role wear 
> plays in weight reduction and pliability (it's as if we're riding shaved 
> tires for most of the mileage). I haven't weighed, but at the halfway 
> point, I bet the weight has been reduced to a level that's less than many 
> middle-weight tires. My butt's not delicate enough to gauge it, but I sense 
> that pliability increases to some degree. After a break-in period-- let's 
> say, 1000 miles-- I propose that whatever speed liability the marathons may 
> have had would be reduced below a level of real-world significance. And 
> that means for the next 7,000 miles (equivalent to two or three new 
> "faster" tires) it don't matter. (Of course, I am happy to spend a few 
> extra hours riding around on my bike every year, so I'll confess, it's 
> mostly a hypothetical issue with me.) Lynne Cooney, I see you took the 
> Spring Hill Avenue Lucky Charm with you. Hope you are well.
>
> On Friday, November 20, 2015 at 9:35:20 PM UTC-6, Mobile Bill wrote:
>>
>> It would be wrong to suggest that Marathons never flat. I just had my 
>> third flat, a slow leak ... in the course of riding 5 Marathons 22,000 
>> miles on my Saluki (not sets of tires, but 5 tires). The tires I have on 
>> there probably have at least a couple of thousand left in them. I keep 
>> thinking I should replace them with something more clever. But getting this 
>> flat weirdly reminded me of why I'm reluctant to give them up.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: New Winter Project: Another 650B conversion, thanks in part to you

[Montclair BobbyB]

You crack me up, Bill !!! Those poor orphaned 650B wheels...  that looks 
like a gem of a frameset.  This past year I converted my 1980 Raleigh 
Competition from 27 to 650B (using long reach Diacompe center pulls).  Good 
luck!!

But oh... those poor orphaned 700c wheels...  *(ah... the circle of 
life)...* 

BB

On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 10:21:26 PM UTC-5, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> Haha.  Thanks Dave.  
>
> The auction just ended, so I'm in no particular rush.  Let me know if you 
> find a stem offlist and I'll figure out how to take it off your hands.  
>
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
>
> On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 6:00:31 PM UTC-8, Dave wrote:
>>
>> Sorry the list made you bill. I think I've got a stem in those extensions 
>> and live in n. Berkeley. Family's in town this week, but this weekend would 
>> work.
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Third flat on Marathons

[Lynne Cooney]

I wondered if that was you, Bill!

On Tuesday, November 24, 2015 at 6:53:03 AM UTC-8, Mobile Bill wrote:
>
> Regarding slowness: Since we're getting most of our mileage out of these 
> Marathons AFTER the 3,000 mile mark, you have to wonder what role wear 
> plays in weight reduction and pliability (it's as if we're riding shaved 
> tires for most of the mileage). I haven't weighed, but at the halfway 
> point, I bet the weight has been reduced to a level that's less than many 
> middle-weight tires. My butt's not delicate enough to gauge it, but I sense 
> that pliability increases to some degree. After a break-in period-- let's 
> say, 1000 miles-- I propose that whatever speed liability the marathons may 
> have had would be reduced below a level of real-world significance. And 
> that means for the next 7,000 miles (equivalent to two or three new 
> "faster" tires) it don't matter. (Of course, I am happy to spend a few 
> extra hours riding around on my bike every year, so I'll confess, it's 
> mostly a hypothetical issue with me.) Lynne Cooney, I see you took the 
> Spring Hill Avenue Lucky Charm with you. Hope you are well.
>
> On Friday, November 20, 2015 at 9:35:20 PM UTC-6, Mobile Bill wrote:
>>
>> It would be wrong to suggest that Marathons never flat. I just had my 
>> third flat, a slow leak ... in the course of riding 5 Marathons 22,000 
>> miles on my Saluki (not sets of tires, but 5 tires). The tires I have on 
>> there probably have at least a couple of thousand left in them. I keep 
>> thinking I should replace them with something more clever. But getting this 
>> flat weirdly reminded me of why I'm reluctant to give them up.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Ron Mc]

conspiracy theories?  seriously?  this simply about smart choice v. dumb 
choice.  

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[RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[John Phillips]

MD's are not just tired of *looking at trauma*, I know someone who treats 
ER MD's for vicarious psychological trauma suffered from treating mangled 
accident victims.

Can you imagine needing to see a shrink, because you are too 
psychologically traumatized from working in the ER to ride your own bike?

John 

On Tuesday, November 24, 2015 at 9:13:43 AM UTC-8, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> actually, I don't wonder that at all - I think they'e tired of looking at 
> needlessly severe trauma, just like my MD friends who abhor motorcycles.  
>

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[RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Geoffrey]

I haven't looked at the article but I will.  I do want to say that I'm not 
entrenched in any position aside from freedom of choice and please, don't 
proselytize. 

On Sunday, November 22, 2015 at 9:02:05 PM UTC-6, Eric Norris wrote:
>
> Not that this is going to change a single mind on the subject, but it is 
> perhaps of interest to some:
>
> https://www.facs.org/media/press-releases/2015/haider 
>
> And yes, I realize that the helmet and non-helmet camps have firmly 
> established their entrenched positions, which have been expressed many 
> times on this forum.
>
> --Eric Norris
> campyo...@me.com 
> www.campyonly.com
> campyonlyguy.blogspot.com 
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Polished Sugino Crankset

[Garth]

In that case , let your finger do the walkin' with search engines and 
forums .  Or, get something better , the Mighty Tour double. This is their 
high end "touring" type crank equal to and/or better than the 
Alpina/Cospea. These have the PE110S rings that are polished (and what is 
on the Alpina), which are also available singly. The best $$ place to get 
these is from Alex's in Japan. You can get just the arms or the complete 
with your choice of rings !  

http://www.alexscycle.com/cranks/fixed-non-njs-1-2-3-4-5-6/sugino-mighty-tour-pcd110-crank.html
http://www.alexscycle.com/cranks/road-1-2-3-4-5-6/sugino-mighty-tour-crank-set.html

On Tuesday, November 24, 2015 at 1:33:44 PM UTC-5, LBleriot wrote:
>
> Thanks guys but the current version of the Alpina has matte alu rings. The 
> old version I'm looking for had polished rings. I'm looking for that 
> version sold by VO a few years ago. 

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[RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Doug Williams]

Okay, what do you suggest? Should we pass mandatory helmet laws that will 
reduce ridership so that doctors won't be traumatized by injured bicyclists? 
Even though:

1) The few remaining bicyclists will be at greater risk.

2) Many more people will die of obesity and other fitness related diseases. 
(And motor vehicle accidents).

3) More cars will clog our roads and pollute our air. (The list goes on).

I'm just saying that those advocating mandatory helmet laws need to address ALL 
of the facts and policy concerns that accompany those laws.

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[RBW] Saturday Acorn Cruncher Ride

[true]

Link to slide show:

http://s793.photobucket.com/user/ViewPicsHere/slideshow/N%20Intl

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[RBW] Re: New Winter Project: Another 650B conversion, thanks in part to you

[Bill Lindsay]

So David, your 1984 was a 27" wheel stock, and you converted it to a 
700xChubby with medium reach sidepulls?   That's pretty sweet.  You 
could've had cantilever posts and maybe "normal" DT shift bosses brazed on 
and then you could have really caused some trouble!  

Mine has 700c wheels stock.  The 1985 catalog brags that you can upgrade to 
sew-ups when you get serious!  

Mark, I promise to photodocument the process.  The normal tight spot is 
between the chainstays, but that's squishable.  I'm planning on 38s.  I 
have a TON of 35-38mm 650B tires.  The first tires on my build might be my 
hoarded pair of the infamously unloved Grand Bois Ourson.  

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Tuesday, November 24, 2015 at 2:48:46 PM UTC-8, David Banzer wrote:
>
> Now I'm missing the Tempo I had a few years back. I had it set up as a 1x8 
> - could've used a taller stem.
> http://i821.photobucket.com/albums/zz136/dabanzer/0dc2dd1d.jpg
> David
> Chicago
>
>
>

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[RBW] WTB: Nitto Big Front Rack (34f)

[Tim Wood]

Anyone?  PM me if you have one you want to unload. 

Tim

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[RBW] Re: Third flat on Marathons

[Mobile Bill]

Regarding slowness: Since we're getting most of our mileage out of these 
Marathons AFTER the 3,000 mile mark, you have to wonder what role wear 
plays in weight reduction and pliability (it's as if we're riding shaved 
tires for most of the mileage). I haven't weighed, but at the halfway 
point, I bet the weight has been reduced to a level that's less than many 
middle-weight tires. My butt's not delicate enough to gauge it, but I sense 
that pliability increases to some degree. After a break-in period-- let's 
say, 1000 miles-- I propose that whatever speed liability the marathons may 
have had would be reduced below a level of real-world significance. And 
that means for the next 7,000 miles (equivalent to two or three new 
"faster" tires) it don't matter. (Of course, I am happy to spend a few 
extra hours riding around on my bike every year, so I'll confess, it's 
mostly a hypothetical issue with me.) Lynne Cooney, I see you took the 
Spring Hill Avenue Lucky Charm with you. Hope you are well.

On Friday, November 20, 2015 at 9:35:20 PM UTC-6, Mobile Bill wrote:
>
> It would be wrong to suggest that Marathons never flat. I just had my 
> third flat, a slow leak ... in the course of riding 5 Marathons 22,000 
> miles on my Saluki (not sets of tires, but 5 tires). The tires I have on 
> there probably have at least a couple of thousand left in them. I keep 
> thinking I should replace them with something more clever. But getting this 
> flat weirdly reminded me of why I'm reluctant to give them up.
>
>
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Ron Mc]

conflict of interest - you believe these surgeons have helmets for sale.  

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[RBW] Re: centerpull recommendations for a sam.

[Ron Mc]

I agree with don't fix it if it's not broken, and also agree with Bill's 
merino undies.  But 40 yrs on my old Weinmann's, I've been through every 
possible brake shoe combination that would fit, and found the Kool Stop 
Dura cartridges were the very best (especially in front) because of their 
spherical washer, and that they self-align and self-toe if you install them 
per the instructions.  Paul Moon straddle cable yokes also improve CPs, 
partly due to the ease of adjusting cables, but I also believe they provide 
optimum normal angle on the factory straddle cables.  

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Re: [RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Garth]

  Exactly   follow the money .  Every "study" has and angle to promote. 

On Tuesday, November 24, 2015 at 12:31:21 AM UTC-5, Benz, Sunnyvale, CA 
wrote:
>
>
> I will like to see if there are any sponsors to this analysis. The 
> sentence "next step is to create injury prevention programs to increase 
> helmet use among bicyclists, to manufacture better helmets, and to develop 
> and enforce stricter laws for helmet use." creates a little suspicion on 
> possible conflicts of interest.
>
>
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: So darn close...

[Philip Kim]

Here's the Riv post.  >>> 
http://rivbike.tumblr.com/post/108118247614/click-on-the-pix-to

On Monday, November 23, 2015 at 4:36:45 PM UTC-5, Zach Duval wrote:
>
> I'don't love to see/read how you did it. 
>
> Thanks!
>
> After putting the rear tire on first, I was quite optimistic. The front is 
> the only place I have rubbing.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Steve Palincsar]

That's a very cynical view.

On 11/24/2015 08:28 AM, Garth wrote:
  Exactly   follow the money .  Every "study" has and angle to 
promote.


On Tuesday, November 24, 2015 at 12:31:21 AM UTC-5, Benz, Sunnyvale, 
CA wrote:



I will like to see if there are any sponsors to this analysis. The
sentence "next step is to create injury prevention programs to
increase helmet use among bicyclists, to manufacture better
helmets, and to develop and enforce stricter laws for helmet use."
creates a little suspicion on possible conflicts of interest.



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[RBW] Re: Polished Sugino Crankset

[Garth]

Its also sold here as a triple 
http://store.biketouringnews.com/sugino-alpina-2-triple-crankset-48-36-24/

and here as a double 
http://www.benscycle.com/p-910-sugino-alpina-2-500d-crankset.aspx

a google search may find more ... 


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Re: [RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

[Garth]

 Not helmets, but a myriad of "other benefits" of endless variety of 
which would astound .  There is always a finacial angle for someone   . 


On Tuesday, November 24, 2015 at 6:12:26 AM UTC-5, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> conflict of interest - you believe these surgeons have helmets for sale.  
>

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[RBW] Re: Smart Guys: Bicycle Helmets Reduce Injuries

['Clayton' via RBW Owners Bunch]

>
> Helmets can give a false sense of security. There is risk compensation, 
> where you ride faster and a touch more reckless because you feel safer 
> wearing a helmet. A Neurologist stated that you can get a fatal head injury 
> from a three foot fall. I wear my helmet most of the time, and have been 
> grateful when my head has hit the ground. I strongly suggest that 
> *occasionally,* folks ride without your helmet, to give back a sense of 
> vulnerability, which will make you ride safer. I have to chip in with this, 
> every time a helmet argument pops up. I couldn't resist. 
>

Clayton Bailey
Retired Paramedic Firefighter. 

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