[RBW] Re: Converting a triple to a low/low

[Joe Bernard]

Cool you win. I didn't know about modern 2x MTB derailers, I didn't even know 
that was a thing. 

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[RBW] Re: Converting a triple to a low/low

[Joe Bernard]

Cool you win. I don't know anything about modern 2x front derailers, I didn't 
even know that was a thing. 

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[RBW] Re: Converting a triple to a low/low

[Nick Payne]

On Thursday, 4 July 2019 11:43:53 UTC+10, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Your chainguard looks sized similar to the 42t it replaced.  


No, they're not close to the same size - the 42t chainring is more than 
30mm greater diameter than the chainguard - 174mm vs 142mm. Here's the 
crank with a 42t chainring in front of the chainguard for comparison:




Nick

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rain Cape Recommendation

[Matt]

Tully—Yes, it's packable—I roll mine up—but the fabric is a good weight so 
it takes up more space than a thin poncho. It's about the size of a big 
hoagie when rolled. 

On Monday, June 24, 2019 at 7:56:03 AM UTC-7, Tully Lanter wrote:
>
> Matt - do you find the Cleverhood packable? 
>
> The Vaude's flapping irritates me enough that I would consider something 
> bulkier and costlier *if* it still fits in a smaller pannier...
>

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Re: [RBW] MIT Atlantis and chain length

[Joe Bernard]

I was just about to mention that. I believe the chain note used to be on 
various model descriptions, but seems to have faded out with subsequent site 
updates. I suppose at some point Riv folks are expected to expect the chain 
issue like tandem and recumbent people do.  

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Re: [RBW] MIT Atlantis and chain length

[WETH]

I can’t speak for all models, but they have this text at the end of the 
description for Cheviots:
“NOTE ON CHAIN LENGTH: Because the chainstays of the 55 and 60 Cheviot are 
longer than a normal bike, you will need to use two chains, or 120-124ish 
links, depending on your drivetrain configuration. Start with 6 extra lynx and 
use your best judgement. The chain is the right length when it pulls the 
derailer cage free of and parallel to the chain itself when wrapped around the 
smallest cog and the smallest chainring -- i.e., the derailer cage will be 
flexed slightly. Here's the venerable Sheldon Brown's method, for an alternate 
take.”
https://www.rivbike.com/collections/framesets/products/frame-cheviot
All the best,
Erl

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[RBW] Re: Converting a triple to a low/low

[Joe Bernard]

Your chainguard looks sized similar to the 42t it replaced.  

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Re: [RBW] MIT Atlantis and chain length

[LBleriot]

Thanks John and everybody else!  Even with the longer chain and the big pulley 
wheel on the Altus, it gets a little nutty in the big-big and small-small 
combos.  And yes, I think Riv should put a note on website that certain 
drivetrains might require a longer chain.

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Re: [RBW] MIT Atlantis and chain length

[esoterica etc]

John,

Actually, I bought the frame from a third party, not directly from Riv. I’ve 
had nothing but stellar customer service every time I interact with them, so 
I’d like to think they would give folks who buy frames a heads up on something 
like that. 

~Mark 
Raleigh, NC


> On Jul 3, 2019, at 21:22, 'John Hawrylak' via RBW Owners Bunch 
>  wrote:
> 
> Mark
> 
> Wouldn't be nice if RBW told you this when you bought the frame (VBG)??  An 
> informed consumer is the best customer.
> 
> John Hawrylak
> Woodstown NJ
> 
>> On Wednesday, July 3, 2019 at 8:19:52 PM UTC-4, esoterica etc wrote:
>> 
>> I came upon this same issue as I’m building up a Clem (with similar 
>> chainstay length to the MIT Atlantis) from just a frame. I contacted Riv to 
>> find out what length of chain was needed, and Will responded that they sell 
>> KMC chain in bulk and can cut you the proper length based on your chainring 
>> and cassette. Seems like the best option- that way you don’t have to worry 
>> about splicing chains or using two master links. Plus, you’ll be supporting 
>> Riv at the same time. Win-win in my book. 
>> 
>> ~Mark 
>> Raleigh, NC 
>> 
>> 
>> > On Jul 3, 2019, at 20:06, Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY  
>> > wrote: 
>> > 
>> > New school says two masterlinks and Grant's your uncle, but that might 
>> > make me like school in summer? I know the skills of chain pinning, and I 
>> > respect the game, but masterlinks are s easy. 
>> > -Kai 
>> > 
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Re: [RBW] MIT Atlantis and chain length

['John Hawrylak' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Mark

Wouldn't be nice if RBW told you this when you bought the frame (VBG)??  An 
informed consumer is the best customer.

John Hawrylak
Woodstown NJ

On Wednesday, July 3, 2019 at 8:19:52 PM UTC-4, esoterica etc wrote:
>
>
> I came upon this same issue as I’m building up a Clem (with similar 
> chainstay length to the MIT Atlantis) from just a frame. I contacted Riv to 
> find out what length of chain was needed, and Will responded that they sell 
> KMC chain in bulk and can cut you the proper length based on your chainring 
> and cassette. Seems like the best option- that way you don’t have to worry 
> about splicing chains or using two master links. Plus, you’ll be supporting 
> Riv at the same time. Win-win in my book. 
>
> ~Mark 
> Raleigh, NC 
>
>
> > On Jul 3, 2019, at 20:06, Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY  > wrote: 
> > 
> > New school says two masterlinks and Grant's your uncle, but that might 
> make me like school in summer? I know the skills of chain pinning, and I 
> respect the game, but masterlinks are s easy. 
> > -Kai 
> > 
> > -- 
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>
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[RBW] Re: Converting a triple to a low/low

[Nick Payne]

On Wednesday, 3 July 2019 08:37:12 UTC+10, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> The problem you're trying to work around is there are no FDs specifically 
> designed to shift a low/low crank with a small chain guard. Normally what 
> you see is a triple FD in its normal triple position over a guard the size 
> of a big ring.


Sure there are - 2x MTB derailleurs. Here's an XT 2x10 FD and a 94BCD 
triple setup as 32/22 low/low double plus chainguard. I have similar setups 
on other bikes, though not with such small chainrings:




Nick


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Re: [RBW] MIT Atlantis and chain length

[esoterica etc]

I came upon this same issue as I’m building up a Clem (with similar chainstay 
length to the MIT Atlantis) from just a frame. I contacted Riv to find out what 
length of chain was needed, and Will responded that they sell KMC chain in bulk 
and can cut you the proper length based on your chainring and cassette. Seems 
like the best option- that way you don’t have to worry about splicing chains or 
using two master links. Plus, you’ll be supporting Riv at the same time. 
Win-win in my book. 

~Mark 
Raleigh, NC


> On Jul 3, 2019, at 20:06, Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY  
> wrote:
> 
> New school says two masterlinks and Grant's your uncle, but that might make 
> me like school in summer? I know the skills of chain pinning, and I respect 
> the game, but masterlinks are s easy.
> -Kai
> 
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[RBW] MIT Atlantis and chain length

['Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Use masterlinks. It is so fiddly to get the pins popped in properly, and even 
when I thought I did, SNAP! POP! POP! go chains on a climb. Hasn't happened 
since I shifted to masterlinks for any chain connection work.

With abandon,
Patrick

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[RBW] MIT Atlantis and chain length

[Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY]

New school says two masterlinks and Grant's your uncle, but that might make me 
like school in summer? I know the skills of chain pinning, and I respect the 
game, but masterlinks are s easy.
-Kai

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[RBW] Re: MIT Atlantis and chain length

['John Hawrylak' via RBW Owners Bunch]

The chain length calculation for a 52cm stay (53cm MIT-Atlantis) with a 46 
ring and 36 cog gives 124 links.  So your just about correct.

Stay lengths > = 48cm typically require >116 links.  The MIT-AHH's should 
just fit a 116L chain (stay = 47.5cm), depending on the large ring and big 
cog..

This came before and Grant P suggested buying chain in bulk.

John Hawrylak
Woodstown NJ

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[RBW] MIT Atlantis and chain length

[LBleriot]

So, I bought an MIT Atlantis from a fellow member of the bunch, and am learning 
the pros and cons of those eeeaaalllyyy long chainstays.  They provide a 
nice comfy ride, but caused me some head scratching when it came to fitting a 
chain. I set up the Atlantis as traditional rambler/tourer with drop bars, bar 
end shifters, triple crankset, an 8 speed cassette and Altus front and rear 
derailleurs.   After reading that Riv uses KMC 116 link chains, I put one on my 
new ride.  No go; in the big ring, the derailleur stretches too much.  So, back 
to the shop I went for another chain to add 6 links to the original chain.  
Time to bust out the old school skill of breaking and re-pinning the chain.  Am 
I the only one to experience this?

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[RBW] Re: Converting a triple to a low/low

[Nick Payne]

On Monday, 1 July 2019 09:12:36 UTC+10, Benz, Sunnyvale, CA wrote:
>
>
> How ever did you get those ex-chainrings to be so…refined? Your 
> workmanship must be master craftsman level if you used only a hacksaw and 
> file. 
>

I was able to initially get the ring pretty close to exactly round with the 
hacksaw and a file, and I finished it off once I had the ring mounted on 
the crank. With the bike on a solid workstand I got my wife to turn the 
cranks while I used a succession of files. I did this before I had 
derailleurs mounted and chain installed, and I could brace my hands against 
the the seat-tube and down-tube to hold the file as still as possible. If 
I'd had a Dremel with a drum band sanding attachment I probably could have 
done the same considerably quicker.

For the amount of fiddling around, next time I think I'll just buy a 
chainguard, so long as I can find one to match the crank - Rivendell sell 
some quite nice looking ones.

Nick

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[RBW] WTB: Affordable floor pump in East SF Bay

[CMR]

Bike thieves got into my apartment complex and stole over 6 bicycles, 
including a pump I left outside for the community to use. Luckily my 
Quickbeam was in my room safe, but now I am without a pump. On a budget so 
would love to buy a used pump locally, I'm located in Berkeley. Thanks all!

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[RBW] Re: Converting a triple to a low/low

[Rick Thompson]

FWIW, I have an old bike with Ultegra triple converted to low/low just by 
adjusting the FD stop and replacing the big ring with one of these 
bashguards to act as chain guard: https://bbgbashguard.com/

The bashguard was around $14, seemed worth it compared to trying to cut and 
file off the teeth on the old big ring.


On Wednesday, July 3, 2019 at 1:25:38 AM UTC-7, Garth wrote:
>
> The FD doesn't need to be altered from the position it is *already 
> working with all 3 rings.  *Taking off the big ring and just using the 2 
> small rings(no guard, single ring chainring bolts) doesn't change that, as 
> obviously it's no different than simply never shifting into the big ring in 
> the first place. 
>
> I don't know what FD you have currently, but I know from experience older 
> road FD's shift even a 26 to 44 just fine as I previously was running 
> 26/44/48 rings with a 1999 105 double FD. If you did by change need/want a 
> shorter cage road FD the older SunTour Superbe Pro have shorter cages. 
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Film cameras on bike rides?

[Lester Lammers]

I'd keep it in a small Pelican knock off case from Harbor Freight. The 
range finder prisms are fragile. As Eric said, *"I dropped a Leica M4 from 
a few inches, and ended up with a $175 repair when the old glue inside gave 
way."*

On Friday, June 28, 2019 at 10:39:56 PM UTC-4, Philip Williamson wrote:
>
> What’s the best way to carry a valuable/sentimental/fragile film camera on 
> mixed terrain bike rides? 
>
> I have a Leica iii(d) I inherited and refurbished that I very much like to 
> shoot. When I’m walking around, the best setup seems to be running both 
> ends of the metal snake strap to the right lug, and tucking the camera into 
> my jacket’s zippered outside breast pocket. I can imagine getting an 
> old-style jersey with a kangaroo boob pocket, but I don’t have one now. 
>
> I’ve seen sliding harness “systems” in my flickr days, but I was too poor 
> to consider them then. If there’s a quick-draw strap that keeps the camera 
> close to the body and stable, I would consider it now. If the same thing 
> can be rigged up for cheap, I’m interested in that, too. I’m happy to 
> basket or frame-bag carry, too, but it seems/feels like my body would damp 
> road shock better. 
>
> I was super-impressed with a Rivster’s basket net rig to transport a heavy 
> Mamiya (?) safely offroad, since I have a C3 and a small Graflex. This 
> question is more for carrying the little Leica, though. 
>
> I don’t imagine there’s a better place to ask this question. 
>
> Philip 
> Santa Rosa, CA

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Re: [RBW] Re: Converting a triple to a low/low

[Joe Bernard]

Yes a triple FD will work, no it won't be pretty set up high above that small 
chainguard. The CX70 and BB I'm sending should cover his bases, and might even 
work without swapping BBs. 

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[RBW] Re: Film cameras on bike rides?

[phil k]

You can use a bar bag like a Randi Jo or something similar. If it's bigger, 
than Outershell Adventure has a nice front bag and sells padded camera 
slots to organize everything.

On Friday, June 28, 2019 at 10:39:56 PM UTC-4, Philip Williamson wrote:
>
> What’s the best way to carry a valuable/sentimental/fragile film camera on 
> mixed terrain bike rides? 
>
> I have a Leica iii(d) I inherited and refurbished that I very much like to 
> shoot. When I’m walking around, the best setup seems to be running both 
> ends of the metal snake strap to the right lug, and tucking the camera into 
> my jacket’s zippered outside breast pocket. I can imagine getting an 
> old-style jersey with a kangaroo boob pocket, but I don’t have one now. 
>
> I’ve seen sliding harness “systems” in my flickr days, but I was too poor 
> to consider them then. If there’s a quick-draw strap that keeps the camera 
> close to the body and stable, I would consider it now. If the same thing 
> can be rigged up for cheap, I’m interested in that, too. I’m happy to 
> basket or frame-bag carry, too, but it seems/feels like my body would damp 
> road shock better. 
>
> I was super-impressed with a Rivster’s basket net rig to transport a heavy 
> Mamiya (?) safely offroad, since I have a C3 and a small Graflex. This 
> question is more for carrying the little Leica, though. 
>
> I don’t imagine there’s a better place to ask this question. 
>
> Philip 
> Santa Rosa, CA

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Re: [RBW] Re: Converting a triple to a low/low

[David Johnston]

I had meant to say "So even though there are some current mtn doubles
designed for really small rings like 36-22 

On 7/3/19, David Johnston  wrote:
> I'm not sure if Johnny the OP has a fully built up bike yet or how
> many parts he has to start with. If he has any front derailleur,
> particularity one that was originally designed for a 46-36-24
> crankset, I would suggest trying that first.
>
> I have heard the Mtn derailleurs produced in the last few years are
> designed to have the rings more outboard so they may not swing enough
> inward for a roadish chainline. So even though there are some current
> mtn doubles designed for really small rings like 46-22 they may not be
> the best choice. I have a stash of 90's stuff and haven't made it past
> 9 speed so I haven't tried this stuff yet.
>
> On 7/3/19, Garth  wrote:
>> The FD doesn't need to be altered from the position it is *already
>> working
>> with all 3 rings.  *Taking off the big ring and just using the 2 small
>> rings(no guard, single ring chainring bolts) doesn't change that, as
>> obviously it's no different than simply never shifting into the big ring
>> in
>>
>> the first place.
>>
>> I don't know what FD you have currently, but I know from experience older
>> road FD's shift even a 26 to 44 just fine as I previously was running
>> 26/44/48 rings with a 1999 105 double FD. If you did by change need/want
>> a
>> shorter cage road FD the older SunTour Superbe Pro have shorter cages.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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>> Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/IJCjUEljRIQ/unsubscribe.
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>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>

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[RBW] What's Left and Price Drops FS: Many cranksets, Acorn Bag, drivetrain parts, etc.

[Eric Douglas]

 

Here’s what’s left—

Prices dropped and feel free to make offers

Photos can be seen here: 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/147685640@N03/albums/72157709360495822

Prices include shipping.

It’s best to contact me at ekdouglas (at) mindspring.com  

Regards,

Eric Douglas in Brooklyn

 

#1 Thorn cranks 110/74 bcd . 170mm length.  $40

#2 Sugino cranks 110/74 bcd  170mm length.  $40

 

Shimano XTR 900 cranks. Possibly the nicest 110/74 bcd  cranks ever made. 
170mm length.  Note: bolts are not included and you’ll need spacers if you 
want to mount a 74mm chainring.  I can see if I have spare spacers if 
needed. Also, if you need chainrings, I have some used and new I can sell 
cheap.

 

#3 $70

#4 $70

#5 $70

#6 $55

#7 $60

 

Sugino cranks in black  130 bcd 175 mm length.  $35

Shimano Ultegra cranks 130 bcd 172.5 mm length with bottom bracket. $50

 

Stronglight Impact cranksets.  All are new and 110 bcd with self-extracting 
bolts.  The cranks were forged by Sugino and the chainrings look to be TA 
quality.

 

52/42  170mm $80

50/40  170mm $80

50/34  165mm $80

48/34  165mm $80

52/42 165mm $80

50/36 165mm $80

 

Other Stuff:

 

Acorn Handlebar bag. Designed to be used without a decaleur. New. $110

SRAM PG 1050 12-36 10 speed cassette New $45 Two available.

TA Zephyr 46t 110 bcd chainrings New and silver. $45  


On Monday, July 1, 2019 at 1:25:57 PM UTC-4, Eric Douglas wrote:
>
> A few months ago I started a thread about hip/knee pain and crank length.  
> I’ve since seen a few specialists, started physical therapy and changed  my 
> cranks from 170 to 165. 
>
>  
>
> So, I’m selling a bunch of cranks, along with some other stuff.
>
>  
>
> Photos can be seen here: 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/147685640@N03/albums/72157709360495822
>
>  
>
>  
>
> Prices include shipping.
>
>  
>
> If asking prices seem to be out of line, feel free to make offers.
>
>  
>
> It’s best to contact me at ekdouglas (at) mindspring.com  
>
>  
>
> Regards,
>
>  
>
> Eric Douglas in Brooklyn
>
>  
>
> #1 Thorn cranks 110/74 bcd . 170mm length.  $50
>
> #2 Sugino cranks 110/74 bcd  170mm length.  $50
>
>  
>
> Shimano XTR 900 cranks. Possibly the nicest 110/74 bcd  cranks ever made. 
> 170mm length.  Note: bolts are not included and you’ll need spacers if 
> you want to mount a 74mm chainring.  I can see if I have spare spacers if 
> needed. Also, if you need chainrings, I have some used and new I can sell 
> cheap.
>
>  
>
> #3 $75
>
> #4 $75
>
> #5 $75
>
> #6 $60
>
> #7 $65
>
> #8 $85  very light use 
>
> #9 $90 some shopwear, but never mounted
>
>  
>
> Sugino cranks in black  130 bcd 175 mm length.  $40
>
> Shimano Ultegra cranks 130 bcd 172.5 mm length with bottom bracket. $60
>
>  
>
> Stronglight Impact cranksets.  All are new and 110 bcd with 
> self-extracting bolts.  The cranks were forged by Sugino and the 
> chainrings look to be TA quality.
>
>  
>
> 52/42  170mm $90
>
> 50/40  170mm $90
>
> 48/38/28 165mm $110
>
> 50/34  165mm $90
>
> 48/34  165mm $90
>
> 52/42 165mm $90
>
> 50/36 165mm $90
>
>  
>
> Other Stuff:
>
>  
>
> Berthoud Saddle. Taken off a bike I bought. Don’t know the model. 275mm x 
> 155 mm. Looks like it was barely used. $95
>
>  
>
> Acorn Handlebar bag. Designed to be used without a decaleur. New. $140
>
>  
>
> Shimano XT 9 speed long cage derailleurs.  1 new $50, one lightly used $40
>
> Shimano  10 speed bar end shifters. New. $75 . Two available.
>
> Shimano XT 11-36 10 speed cassette New $45
>
> SRAM PG 1050 12-36 10 speed cassette New $45 Two available.
>
> SRAM PG 1070   10 speed cassette New $55
>
>  
>
> TA Zephyr 46t 110 bcd chainrings. New and silver. $45  Two available.
>
>  
>
> B IQ-X in silver. New in package $95.  Two available.
> B Toplight Line Plus Rear light. New in package $2 
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Converting a triple to a low/low

[Patrick Moore]

+1. My experience with the LX fd on my Fargo when converting from triple to
double.

On Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at 2:25 AM Garth  wrote:

> The FD doesn't need to be altered from the position it is *already
> working with all 3 rings.  *Taking off the big ring and just using the 2
> small rings(no guard, single ring chainring bolts) doesn't change that, as
> obviously it's no different than simply never shifting into the big ring in
> the first place.
>
> I don't know what FD you have currently, but I know from experience older
> road FD's shift even a 26 to 44 just fine as I previously was running
> 26/44/48 rings with a 1999 105 double FD. If you did by change need/want a
> shorter cage road FD the older SunTour Superbe Pro have shorter cages.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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> 
> .
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>


-- 



**





*Still 'round the corner there may waitA new road or a secret gate,And
though we pass them by today,Tomorrow we may come this wayAnd take the
hidden paths that runTowards the Moon or to the Sun.*
--- J.R.R. Tolkien
---
Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews
By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching
Other professional writing services
Expensive! But good.
http://www.resumespecialties.com/
Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique

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[RBW] PSA: CL Rivendell Romulus Randonneur - 57cm - $1300 complete bike

[REC (Roberta)]

I saw this on the Washington, DC craigslist.  No relation to owner.  

https://washingtondc.craigslist.org/doc/bik/d/washington-rivendell-romulus-randonneur/6924354032.html

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[RBW] Re: Converting a triple to a low/low

[Bill Schairer]

I’m running my Atlantis with a 42/34/19 triple and a Suntour Cyclone fd.  I 
can’t mount the fd as low as I would like but it handles all the shifts well.  
I do use a chain catcher on the inside.  I’ve only dropped the chain once to 
the outside since I’ve been running this but shouldn’t think that would be an 
issue in your setup anyway and it is well within my standards.  It has worked 
so well I never had to try the CX70. There are many cyclones available on ebay.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Converting a triple to a low/low

[David Johnston]

I'm not sure if Johnny the OP has a fully built up bike yet or how
many parts he has to start with. If he has any front derailleur,
particularity one that was originally designed for a 46-36-24
crankset, I would suggest trying that first.

I have heard the Mtn derailleurs produced in the last few years are
designed to have the rings more outboard so they may not swing enough
inward for a roadish chainline. So even though there are some current
mtn doubles designed for really small rings like 46-22 they may not be
the best choice. I have a stash of 90's stuff and haven't made it past
9 speed so I haven't tried this stuff yet.

On 7/3/19, Garth  wrote:
> The FD doesn't need to be altered from the position it is *already working
> with all 3 rings.  *Taking off the big ring and just using the 2 small
> rings(no guard, single ring chainring bolts) doesn't change that, as
> obviously it's no different than simply never shifting into the big ring in
>
> the first place.
>
> I don't know what FD you have currently, but I know from experience older
> road FD's shift even a 26 to 44 just fine as I previously was running
> 26/44/48 rings with a 1999 105 double FD. If you did by change need/want a
> shorter cage road FD the older SunTour Superbe Pro have shorter cages.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the
> Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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>

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[RBW] Re: Converting a triple to a low/low

[Garth]

The FD doesn't need to be altered from the position it is *already working 
with all 3 rings.  *Taking off the big ring and just using the 2 small 
rings(no guard, single ring chainring bolts) doesn't change that, as 
obviously it's no different than simply never shifting into the big ring in 
the first place. 

I don't know what FD you have currently, but I know from experience older 
road FD's shift even a 26 to 44 just fine as I previously was running 
26/44/48 rings with a 1999 105 double FD. If you did by change need/want a 
shorter cage road FD the older SunTour Superbe Pro have shorter cages. 






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