Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

[Joe Bernard]

Huh, mine is 57.5. Yours (Dorothy) is halfway between mine and the new posted 
number. Weird! 

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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

[Adam Leibow]

here is a day in the life vid shot onboard my clem L
https://www.instagram.com/p/B2LYQMQlCdZ/

On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 4:43:56 PM UTC-8, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
wrote:
>
> I have wanted to start this thread for weeks. Fearing controversy, not 
> desiring to start fights, and worried that staff at Riv will read this, I 
> never mustered up the guts. But the long wheelbase bike topic has come up 
> in several threads now, and maybe we should just have the discussion. 
> People are wanting to buy these bikes, and since most don’t live near a 
> dealer, we need to help each other out regarding bike fit. 
>
> I got a new Clem L (unless you have been living under a ROCK you know this 
> since it’s all I talk about. Go ahead, I dare you to ask me about the color 
> of paint that it has. 😂) and it’s nothing like the other Clems I’ve known 
> and loved. Why? Because it has an even longer wheelbase than than its 
> long-wheelbase predecessors. 
>
> Recently, Rivendell pointed us to an Ask Me Anything with Grant on Reddit. 
> It was a wall of text and I read it. Folks asked their most pressing 
> questions and Grant graciously answered them. Over and over and over again 
> long wheelbase bikes were brought up, and Grant offered his opinion. Longer 
> bikes are more stable, Cadillac-like, comfortable, etc. The opposite of 
> twitchy, short-wheelbase bikes. We know this and most of us will accept it. 
>
> BUT...what I am dying to know is this: how long can you go before it is no 
> longer an improvement? 
>
> Example: My 52 Clementine was much more comfortable than my 55 Betty Foy. 
> Like it was tailor-made for me alone. The Betz was totally fine, no knocks 
> against it, but the Clementine was just more plush. So, I agree with Grant 
> - longer was better. 
>
> The problem came with my Clem L, the 2019 version that had had its 
> geometry changed. I didn’t know I was getting a different bike. I was 
> surprised when I had to buy (several) different stems and a new long 
> wheelbase bar for my Saris rack. It’s been a lot of adjustment, and I’ve 
> been frustrated. If I understand correctly, several Rivendell models have 
> been lengthened as of late. 
>
> The burning question I have: Can anyone tell us if the new longer bikes 
> are better or worse than the previous (also long) versions? We know the 
> theory, what of the reality? I’m thinking especially of the Clems, as they 
> were already SO long. But I think Atlantis people will also have something 
> to say... 
>
> I wanted to have this discussion because I genuinely want to know how the 
> newest long bikes are working out for folks. But I also want to let others 
> know that there are some things to consider if you get one of these new 
> iterations. Will a 52 Clem fit on public transport? I think no. Will it fit 
> on your vehicle hitch bike rack? Mine won’t. Will it be difficult for you 
> to park your long bike in a public rack? Can you back your bike out of your 
> garage/shed easily at this new length? What if you are right between sizes? 
> Rivendell would have you go up, I’m not sure I wouldn’t have done better on 
> the next size down. 
>
> Of course we can have this discussion and keep it kind, can’t we, Friends. 
> It would be so horrible if Rivendell staff read this and saw a lot of 
> inflammatory remarks. I think we’re allowed to have a decent and 
> informative chat, and undoubtedly some people will find it helpful. Plus, 
> maybe Rivendell will find it useful. If the extra long bikes aren’t meeting 
> expectations, maybe there will be changes to future bikes. 
>
> I did put 9 miles riding up a mountain with groceries in my front basket 
> on the new Clem L, so I’m working our relationship! 
> Leah 
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: WTB: Nitto clamps

[Jeff Bogdanovich]

Yes! Those are the ones. 
I’m looking for (2) 

Jeff

> On Jan 6, 2020, at 9:28 PM, David Carner  wrote:
> 
> On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 8:22:57 PM UTC-6, Jeffrey B wrote:
>> Still looking, anything out there? Thanks!
>> 
>> Jeff
> 
> Are these the size you need? If so, how many?
> David
> 
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> <51B98E58-DEE5-4F16-BE46-B70732ABD659.jpeg>

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Re: [RBW] Re: The last of the phenomenal Clem H’s

[Reid Echols]

Not designed for it, but I for one (and others I know of) have run 650b on 26” 
frames with no real problems, other than higher bb/slightly reduced tire 
clearance. Even the cheapest Shimano b brakes have plenty of vertical 
adjustment to make such a thing happen. So, not “authorised” but likely 
possible to make that conversion (as opposed to the other direction, 700c to 
650b, which is much more difficult with a canti frame).

Reid in Austin 

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[RBW] WTB: Nitto clamps

[David Carner]

Jeff, 
I posted the picture above. Based on listing at Rivbike , I think these are the 
huge. I have several. I’m not trying to cut anyone out of sale, but I would be 
happy to mail 2 or 3 to you at no cost to you. I am just up the road at 39601.
You may PM me if interested.
david(dot)carner49(at)gmail.com

David

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[RBW] WTB: Nitto clamps

[Clayton.sf]

Likely have some kicking around too. What forkleg circumference are they to 
clamp around?

Clayton Scott
HBG, CA

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

[Dorothy C]

Joe B.
ETT on the 2019 45cm Clem L, measured from center of seat lug to just under the 
cream accent on the top of the head tube looks to be 60.5 cm

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

[Mark Roland]

And also to be fair, I don't think it would be too common that someone 
would buy two Clem Ls for themselves (and in fact of course neither did 
you.) My point is, the comparison between the two would have been mostly on 
paper for most riders. The fact that the design was changed over that 
timeframe is now definitely an issue for you. I am now super curious to see 
if it presents a similar issue for me. I will definitely report my 
experience. Frankly, I was looking at the extra tire clearance and the 
extra chainstay inch and the awesome green color as a bonus. I did not know 
about the slacker head tube angle. Of course, this is all now creeping 
around in my head. 


On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 7:18:19 PM UTC-5, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
wrote:
>
> These are fair questions, and I’ll see if I can answer them. But first, I 
> cannot wait for your 2019 Clem L to be saddled up and ridden hard. You owe 
> me a story. 
>
> Next, what is making me unhappy about my Clem? Please let me say that I 
> don’t dislike the bike - I do like it, I just wanted to LOVE it. I still 
> just may - but it’s different than what I thought I had purchased, and I’m 
> hoping I get used to it. It also should be said that Riv NAILED the blue 
> paint - have you ever seen a blue so pretty?  Here are the things that irk 
> me: 
> 1. It’s too long for my bike rack. That is pretty straightforward. 
>
> 2. I keep hitting it on things when I walk it backwards. It’s just so 
> LONG, and when I’m moving it around it seems to hit into things all the 
> time. I don’t remember the Clementine being this way, but I will admit I 
> could be wrong.
>
> 3. In that vein, It’s awkward to lift. At school I have to lift it over a 
> curb and I’m never certain I’m going to be able to do it. You should have 
> seen me with the Betty - we made bike-lifting look good! I don’t remember 
> the Clementine being this awkward, but again, I may be wrong. See below for 
> a comparison of the Aquatine and the Clem. It’s LONG. Imagine me swinging 
> this bike around. But I do.
>
>
>
> 4. I had to scoot my saddle pretty far forward for it to feel right. I 
> think this is a drastic measure that really signifies the bike is too long. 
> Website says over 5’5” can ride the 52, so why am I pushing my saddle 
> forward? 
>
> Today I hopped on my Betz and talk about shock. The bike felt short. I 
> felt short. I stood up to pedal and wondered if I might fall over the front 
> wheel. It was weird - and this was my one and only for 7 years! I would 
> never expect it to feel weird.
>
> Then I got on the Clem and felt like I was 7 feet tall. It’s amazing how 
> different these bikes are and what you can get used to. I will keep at it, 
> never fear. I want the bike to do its thing and I really want to feel 
> comfortable. I think you’ll note your 2019 is way different than your OC. I 
> await your report - which you will undoubtedly treat us to here.
> PS Very clever - apples to clementines.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jan 6, 2020, at 3:49 PM, Mark Roland  > wrote:
>
> 
> Hi BBDD! I have a horse in this race (2019 Clem L) but it's not saddled 
> up--in fact the wheels aren't yet built. When that blessed event takes 
> place, I will be able to compare it to the memory of my OC (Original 
> Clementine.)
>
> I have to say I am still unsure as to what is making you unhappy about 
> your new Clem L. I doubt it is heavier than the old one, which had bigger 
> diameter tubing. The extra inch of chainstay would at best be a wash. I 
> understand the limits of a big bike in terms of portage and storage, for 
> sure. In terms of handling, you mention it not being as "nimble" as your 
> other bikes--so specifically, it is "less nimble" than your inherited Aqua 
> Clementine?
>
> It sounds like the bike successfully avoided whatever was in its path in 
> the scenario below. Maybe you could try letting go a bit more and let it do 
> its thing? When I first got my Clementine, the Bosco bars were way out of 
> my normal experience. That's why I committed to giving them 100 days with 
> no judgement, just ride 'em. This is not to suggest a compromise in any 
> way, as is sometimes implied when the term "get used to it" is used. It 
> just means that if your body is really feeling an actual response 
> difference, assuming it's not something inherently unsafe, it may just be 
> giving your nervous system and other parts of your being some time to 
> adjust.
>
> I had a Big Dummy for a few years, when my son was younger. Of course it 
> was heavy, and often, but not always, loaded. But it was a fun bike to 
> ride, I enjoyed it quite a bit, and missed it after I sold it. The 
> chainstays on the Big Dummy were somewhere north of 80cm. So yeah, not 
> going on the front of the bus. On the other hand, it was the bus.
>
> How long is too long? Who knows. I guess certainly for some, anything over 
> 41.5 is too long. Although if the Clem L gets any longer, they should sell 
> it with an e

Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

[Leah Peterson]

I really like this story, but for the forced beausage. Scraping off paint? That 
hurt to read. Anyway, I love that you love your Chev and it is so good to know 
that you find it the ultimate comfortable commuter. That’s the sweet spot for a 
bike for me. 

Do you happen to know how long your 60 Chev is? I’m curious how a 60 Chev 
measures up to a 52 Clem L when you measure the wheelbase. If you know, will 
you leave it here? 

Thanks,
Leah

Sent from my iPad

> On Jan 6, 2020, at 5:28 PM, lambbo  wrote:
> 
> 
> I have a 60 Cheviot and a 61 Roadini.  I live in a walkup in NYC and have a 
> Volvo station wagon with a roof rack. 
> 
> Because bringing it inside and up the stairs is impossible to do pleasantly 
> because of the size, I keep the Cheviot outside on a sign post.  It's not 
> ideal, and I've had to strip the paint off areas to make it uglier, painted 
> the fenders brown, etc., so that it doesn't get stolen.  Extreme forced 
> beausage. For me, it's worth it, because it is SO comfortable, and I commute 
> on it daily.   I put it on my roof rack no trouble (I take off the front 
> wheel), but it's very hard to fit inside the car with the seats down...mostly 
> due to the Bosco's.I think the hardest parts of living with the bike in 
> the city is how I've set it up, with a big basket and big boscos...those 
> things make it harder to lock up; the length doesn't matter besides bringing 
> it inside.   My friend has a 52 or 56 and it's incredibly convenient compared 
> to my 60.
> 
> The Roadini is also big, but it's always lived inside, it's just a normal big 
> bike, because it's 61cm.  I've taken it on trains and ferrys and in the car, 
> all good. 
> 
> I would love it if the Cheviot wasn't so long in theory, but if it was 
> shorter it wouldn't be the same bike, and I've never ridden such a 
> comfortable bike.
> 
> If I had the $ and a garage I'd get the even longer Gus. 
> 
>> On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 8:03:57 PM UTC-5, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
>> wrote:
>> You’ve got eagle eyes, Tom! Yes, that is an older photo of the bike - note 
>> the brown saddle and lack of fabulous wavy fenders.
>> 
>> I have a 50 on there presently.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
 On Jan 6, 2020, at 4:57 PM, tom coppedge  wrote:
 
>>> 
>>> Leah, I thought you got a shorter reach stem than what your picture shows. 
>>> Have you tried a 50mm reach stem yet?  Obviously that’d address only 
>>> cockpit issues, but an important one.   
>>> 
>>> Tom
>>> 
 
 
 
 .
>>> 
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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

[Mark Roland]

I don't think this is necessarily subjective. Comparing a Hillibike, aka 
Clem Smith Jr., which the designer specifically and categorically states is 
based on a 1980s vintage mountain bike, to a Boulder or a Hampsten, 
certainly they will be different. If you have both bicycles, and you choose 
to focus on the exertion levels required by x vs y, and your aim is to get 
to the top faster, and/or in a more spirited manner, it's clear which bikes 
will win that battle, for virtually every rider. Presumably that's why you 
have a bunch of different bicycles. 

The Clem Smith Jr is a Hillibike, and it rides just like one in every way. 
In good measure because, until the Gus/Suzie was released into the wild, it 
was the *only* Hillibike in existence.

I bought a Clementine first batch. I think 2015? I needed to let it go 
temporarily to pay some bills. When I had a little cash on hand, no Clem Ls 
were to be had in all the land.  So I bought a Jones Complete, when they 
first came out, in the summer of 2018. Super fun bike, 3" tires, disc 
brakes, go anywhere, do anything. But I felt like the Clementine climbed 
better, descended better, and handled regular road duty better. It was also 
easier to outfit with fenders, racks, etc. So I sold the Jones and bought 
another Clem L to replace the one I had to temporarily give up.

I don't claim this to be everyone's experience. But it does help to 
acknowledge the intent of the bike's design and go from there.


On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 7:52:38 PM UTC-5, Clayton.sf wrote:
>
> Some *subjective *counterpoints.
>
> Owned an MIT Atlantis, Cheviot and still own a Clem H.
>
> All of the above bikes would be my last choice for "spirited" unloaded 
> climbing when choosing from my stable.
>
> My Boulder, Black Mountain Cyles, Hampsten, and Jones all climb with less 
> perceived exertion on my part and at a higher average speed. 
>
> It is not that the Riv models above are bad climbers but they do require 
> more effort (for me) for the same speed.
> To me they are great loaded multi-purpose bike but they are not (to me) 
> "go-fast" bikes.
>
> On the flipside the Boulder, BMC, and Hampsten would all be inferior 
> heavily loaded. 
>
> The Quickbeam on the other hand never felt like it was holding me back on 
> hills.
>
>
> Clayton Scott
> HBG, CA
>
>
>
>
> On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 4:29:13 PM UTC-8, LBleriot wrote:
>>
>> Let me rephrase.  I wouldn't climb any alpine pass unless it's in a 
>> funicular or a BMW M3.
>>
>> On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 4:18:28 PM UTC-5, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>>>
>>> LBleriot said of long chain stay bikes: "I wouldn't climb any alpine 
>>> passes on these bikes."
>>>
>>> Based on what? I've climbed (and descended) countless alpine passes, 
>>> roads and technical trails, with mine and it climbs and descends 
>>> brilliantly.
>>>
>>> With abandon,
>>> Patrick
>>>
>>

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[RBW] WTB: Nitto clamps

[Jeffrey B]

Still looking, anything out there? Thanks!

Jeff

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[RBW] Re: FS: 62 SimpleOne

[Max S]

Gorgeous scorcher! 

- Max “North Road Bars Are Cool” in A2

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

[lambbo]

I have a 60 Cheviot and a 61 Roadini.  I live in a walkup in NYC and have a 
Volvo station wagon with a roof rack. 

Because bringing it inside and up the stairs is impossible to do pleasantly 
because of the size, I keep the Cheviot outside on a sign post.  It's not 
ideal, and I've had to strip the paint off areas to make it uglier, painted 
the fenders brown, etc., so that it doesn't get stolen.  Extreme forced 
beausage. For me, it's worth it, because it is SO comfortable, and I 
commute on it daily.   I put it on my roof rack no trouble (I take off the 
front wheel), but it's very hard to fit inside the car with the seats 
down...mostly due to the Bosco's.I think the hardest parts of living 
with the bike in the city is how I've set it up, with a big basket and big 
boscos...those things make it harder to lock up; the length doesn't matter 
besides bringing it inside.   My friend has a 52 or 56 and it's incredibly 
convenient compared to my 60.

The Roadini is also big, but it's always lived inside, it's just a normal 
big bike, because it's 61cm.  I've taken it on trains and ferrys and in the 
car, all good. 

I would love it if the Cheviot wasn't so long in theory, but if it was 
shorter it wouldn't be the same bike, and I've never ridden such a 
comfortable bike.

If I had the $ and a garage I'd get the even longer Gus. 

On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 8:03:57 PM UTC-5, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
wrote:
>
> You’ve got eagle eyes, Tom! Yes, that is an older photo of the bike - note 
> the brown saddle and lack of fabulous wavy fenders.
>
> I have a 50 on there presently.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jan 6, 2020, at 4:57 PM, tom coppedge > 
> wrote:
>
> 
> Leah, I thought you got a shorter reach stem than what your picture shows. 
> Have you tried a 50mm reach stem yet?  Obviously that’d address only 
> cockpit issues, but an important one.   
>
> Tom
>
>
>> 
>>
>> .
>>
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>  
> 
> .
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

['Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Fell off me kneeler laughing! (Seriously, I use a coffee table height desk 
with a kneeler ... a bit like a funicular, nothing like a BMW M3.) Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 5:29:13 PM UTC-7, LBleriot wrote:
>
> Let me rephrase.  I wouldn't climb any alpine pass unless it's in a 
> funicular or a BMW M3.
>
> On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 4:18:28 PM UTC-5, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>>
>> LBleriot said of long chain stay bikes: "I wouldn't climb any alpine 
>> passes on these bikes."
>>
>> Based on what? I've climbed (and descended) countless alpine passes, 
>> roads and technical trails, with mine and it climbs and descends 
>> brilliantly.
>>
>> With abandon,
>> Patrick
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: The last of the phenomenal Clem H’s

[Joe Bernard]

Nope. That's a 26-inch wheeler. 

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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

[Jason Fuller]

Even though I haven't ridden any 50+ cm chainstay Rivs, I am pretty 
confident that I would side with those who prefer the shorter stays:  I 
like to ride spirited, I don't mind getting a little out of control in the 
name of fun, and I would happily trade off some stability to get these 
things.  It's certainly a personal choice, where along the stability / 
agility compromise you want to land.  I also recognize that Grant's 
knowledge of how all the geometry numbers intermingle is superior to mine 
and that not all bikes with long stays will ride the same.  

This is why I grabbed a Hillborne while I still could, because the 
medium-long stays are probably the longest I'm ever going to want for my 
weekend play bike, regardless of the benefits of the new long-stay bikes.

I really hope that Grant brings back some new sporty options beyond the 
current road models, something with higher volume 650b (or even 26") with 
Riv-sporty geometry like old models like Saluki, Bleriot, etc. I am sure he 
can put a new twist on these types of bikes without detriment to their 
sportiness. 


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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

[Leah Peterson]

You’ve got eagle eyes, Tom! Yes, that is an older photo of the bike - note the 
brown saddle and lack of fabulous wavy fenders.

I have a 50 on there presently.

Sent from my iPad

> On Jan 6, 2020, at 4:57 PM, tom coppedge  wrote:
> 
> 
> Leah, I thought you got a shorter reach stem than what your picture shows. 
> Have you tried a 50mm reach stem yet?  Obviously that’d address only cockpit 
> issues, but an important one.   
> 
> Tom
> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> .
> 
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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

[aeroperf]

Joe and Eric—

I’m not discounting tire/wheel size.  Since I’ve had the Sam for years, and 
am still setting up the Homer, I tried to control for a few things.  Both 
have the same Serfas 921V seats.  Both had the same tires for these 
particular rides: 37mm Continental Tour Rides.  Today I set both at 70 psi 
for the rides, and I rode both the same route on the Silver Comet Trail.

Maybe this set-up is not optimum for the Homer.  Since I’ve sorted through 
the Sam gearing, tires (I usually ride Speed Rides) and pressure for what I 
like, this was just a totally subjective A-B comparison.  But with both 
bikes having about the same wheelbase (a little longer for the Homer but 
with smaller wheels), I was trying to contribute to Leah’s questions 
regarding “have the chainstays gone too far?”.  

We plunk down our money with whatever bike company, tell them our 
dimensions that they ask for, and hope to get the bike of our dreams.  
Rivendell does pretty darn well at that, especially if you like lugged 
steel.  Grant has had a LOT of experience, and runs a bicycle company whose 
employees also have a LOT of experience, and one that has avid followers.  
Otherwise we wouldn’t be here.  But Rivendell is not infallible, either in 
the fitting or in the design.  I wish I could go to Rivendell directly and 
ride 20 bikes and select my dream bike.  Lacking that, I have to go with 
the published numbers.

For me it seems (and as I said before YMMV), that the Homer chain stays 
have gotten about as long as they could be for me to enjoy riding the 
bike.  If I ever buy another Riv, I’ll look for shorter chainstays (among 
other things).

As Leah says, I like my bikes.  I just wanted to Love them, and I still 
may.  I love the Sam.  The Homer is my kid that I should love the same, and 
I'll see what develops.  But it feels a little too... chainstay-ish.

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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

[Clayton.sf]

Some *subjective *counterpoints.

Owned an MIT Atlantis, Cheviot and still own a Clem H.

All of the above bikes would be my last choice for "spirited" unloaded 
climbing when choosing from my stable.

My Boulder, Black Mountain Cyles, Hampsten, and Jones all climb with less 
perceived exertion on my part and at a higher average speed. 

It is not that the Riv models above are bad climbers but they do require 
more effort (for me) for the same speed.
To me they are great loaded multi-purpose bike but they are not (to me) 
"go-fast" bikes.

On the flipside the Boulder, BMC, and Hampsten would all be inferior 
heavily loaded. 

The Quickbeam on the other hand never felt like it was holding me back on 
hills.


Clayton Scott
HBG, CA




On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 4:29:13 PM UTC-8, LBleriot wrote:
>
> Let me rephrase.  I wouldn't climb any alpine pass unless it's in a 
> funicular or a BMW M3.
>
> On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 4:18:28 PM UTC-5, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>>
>> LBleriot said of long chain stay bikes: "I wouldn't climb any alpine 
>> passes on these bikes."
>>
>> Based on what? I've climbed (and descended) countless alpine passes, 
>> roads and technical trails, with mine and it climbs and descends 
>> brilliantly.
>>
>> With abandon,
>> Patrick
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

[LBleriot]

Let me rephrase.  I wouldn't climb any alpine pass unless it's in a 
funicular or a BMW M3.

On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 4:18:28 PM UTC-5, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
> LBleriot said of long chain stay bikes: "I wouldn't climb any alpine 
> passes on these bikes."
>
> Based on what? I've climbed (and descended) countless alpine passes, roads 
> and technical trails, with mine and it climbs and descends brilliantly.
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>

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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

[RonaTD]

This is a great thread and should serve as a helpful source for people 
considering various Rivendell models. It makes it more helpful, IMO, when 
people chiming in described how they use their bikes. For example, people 
who put their bikes on bus racks, or regularly have to carry them up stairs 
... those are very practical non-riding issues! 

My take on Grant's design evolution is that it's highly influenced by the 
kind of riding he does and where he does it. So, it's not surprising to me 
that Deacon Patrick, who appears to ride similarly over similar (though a 
bit more epic!) terrain as GP. I'll give another example ... I took my 
Quickbeam as a "travel bike" to the San Diego area, where I participated in 
a group ride that, today, would be called a "gravel ride". It was organized 
by an outfitter, who provided cushy full-suspension mountain bikes to 
everyone and tried to dissuade me from using the QB. The terrain reminded 
me a lot of riding trails around Walnut Creek, and the QB put on quite a 
show both ascending and descending some fun singletrack. The bike was very 
much in its element and a joy to ride. 

The lengthening of chain stays offered to me a potential advantage for 
winter commuting, which pretty often involves re-frozen slushy tracks that 
are quite bumpy. All else equal, the longer wheelbase (and longer 
rear-center contribution to that) helps keep the bike moving in the 
intended direction despite the side-deflections from the bumps. I bought a 
Cheviot with the intention of making it my commuting bike, but it never 
worked well for me _for that purpose_. Half of my commute was suburban 
streets, where I wanted to ride 16-20 mph. The other half was a paved 
rail-trail, where 15mph max was a responsible speed. Riding the Cheviot the 
same speed as my other "road" bikes simply wasn't possible, no matter how I 
set up the bars. Milwaukee gets a lot of wind, btw, and winter wind is 
HEAVY!  If I was willing to increase my commute time 50-100%, and if I was 
willing to change from front-loading to rear-loading, it might have worked. 
But it was hard work to ride it, and I ended up re-purposing a lightweight 
randonneur bike as my commuter and loved it.

I have almost no trail-riding opportunities out my door, and I'm not 
usually willing to drive 1-2 hours to find them (another key issue: do you 
like to carry your bike in your car, rather than on it?). I have hundreds 
of kilometers of fabulous paved country roads with good shoulders right out 
my door. So, no surprise, the bikes that work for me are pretty classic 
road bikes. The original prototype Heron Road, with it's "adjustable chain 
stay length" (horizontal drops!)  is still my favorite. The only riding I 
use the Cheviot for is errands, so it permanently carries a pair of 
Carradice rear panniers and a saddle bag. It could use a basket on the 
front for the occasional light, bulky objects.

Also, another good data point is your height/bike size. It's not surprising 
that taller people like longer chain stays, which Grant addressed in his 
recent Reddit exercise. I'm 5'6", 71cm saddle height, so on the shorter 
side for men, and very light weight. 

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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

[Mark Roland]

Hi BBDD! I have a horse in this race (2019 Clem L) but it's not saddled 
up--in fact the wheels aren't yet built. When that blessed event takes 
place, I will be able to compare it to the memory of my OC (Original 
Clementine.)

I have to say I am still unsure as to what is making you unhappy about your 
new Clem L. I doubt it is heavier than the old one, which had bigger 
diameter tubing. The extra inch of chainstay would at best be a wash. I 
understand the limits of a big bike in terms of portage and storage, for 
sure. In terms of handling, you mention it not being as "nimble" as your 
other bikes--so specifically, it is "less nimble" than your inherited Aqua 
Clementine?

It sounds like the bike successfully avoided whatever was in its path in 
the scenario below. Maybe you could try letting go a bit more and let it do 
its thing? When I first got my Clementine, the Bosco bars were way out of 
my normal experience. That's why I committed to giving them 100 days with 
no judgement, just ride 'em. This is not to suggest a compromise in any 
way, as is sometimes implied when the term "get used to it" is used. It 
just means that if your body is really feeling an actual response 
difference, assuming it's not something inherently unsafe, it may just be 
giving your nervous system and other parts of your being some time to 
adjust.

I had a Big Dummy for a few years, when my son was younger. Of course it 
was heavy, and often, but not always, loaded. But it was a fun bike to 
ride, I enjoyed it quite a bit, and missed it after I sold it. The 
chainstays on the Big Dummy were somewhere north of 80cm. So yeah, not 
going on the front of the bus. On the other hand, it was the bus.

How long is too long? Who knows. I guess certainly for some, anything over 
41.5 is too long. Although if the Clem L gets any longer, they should sell 
it with an extra top tube and down tube so you can convert it to a Hubabuba 
when you have company. In fact, on the rare occasions I find myself alone 
on my tandem, it handles just fine. True, no wheelies. Say la vee.

Also, I wonder if perhaps you are feeling more the slacker head angle than 
the extra inch in the chainstays. I am not a bicycle designer by any means, 
but I suppose it is a possibility. There are those who don't get along with 
the slack angles of the early eighties mountain bikes. Although these days 
slack is back, albeit along with many other geo changes, not to mention 
suspension, so it's comparing apples and clementines.

Speaking of apples, I suspect that's one reason Grant is not a big fan of 
by the numbers critiques--it's like taking a bite of the fruit of forbidden 
knowledge. It really can be a rabbit hole that can both confuse and maybe 
even influence our perceptions. As my tai chi teacher was fond of 
admonishing us, "Thinking too much! Just do!"

I hope you will keep riding it and these concerns will fade away. But if 
they don't, I'll bet you could swap for an older model, or sell all your 
bikes and order a custom  candy apple Riv.

On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 10:48:08 PM UTC-5, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
wrote:
>
> ..I have been making myself take that new Clem out on challenging 
> terrain/with loads because I don’t trust it. Today I had to swerve to avoid 
> something and it was so unnerving because I didn’t know if the bike could 
> do what I was asking of it. It’s a long bike, and it doesn’t feel as nimble 
> as my other bikes do; it was fine, crisis averted, but I’d never feel this 
> way with my previous bikes. I’m left with that awful feeling of, “Will I 
> ever get used to this?” “Did I make a mistake?” “Am I supposed to be 
> grateful for these improvements? Am I not sophisticated enough to 
> understand and appreciate them?” Because after all, I’m not the bike 
> geometry expert here. But I do have an understanding, however crude and 
> unrefined, of how good a properly designed and fit bicycle can ride, 
> because I’ve had one. And now I’m a lot of money and time into this 
> experiment. 
>
> I wish I could just go back to enjoying every pedal stroke, but I know too 
> much now. It’s so hard to get used to anything else. I don’t mean to sound 
> ungrateful, but I am disappointed. I know I can sell the bike, but it’s not 
> so bad that it can’t work. I’m just a little sad and disappointed because I 
> thought it would be perfect. I think my sister would say the same about her 
> 2019 Clem L, too. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: The last of the phenomenal Clem H’s

[John_ C]

Thanks for the input everyone!

Last question about the Clem. Can I run 650b/27.5 on the 45cm? I already
have a bunch of tires and 27.5 is kind of a sweet spot for me. I assume
even with 27.5s, I’d have clearance for a 2.0 mob tire.



On Sun, Jan 5, 2020 at 9:30 PM Jason Fuller  wrote:

> John_C - I highly, highly recommend going with the 45.  The 52 is massive,
> much larger than a 52 has any right being. I am 5'8.5" with s 30.5" inseam
> and I fit the 45 quite well.  It'll be perfect for you.  With a Billie /
> Bosco you'll want a longer stem but it'll overall fit MUCH better in my
> opinion
>
> On Sunday, 5 January 2020 14:40:15 UTC-8, John_ C wrote:
>>
>> I'm curios about the 52 myself. I'm 5'6 and about a 29" inseam. Thinking
>> of setting up with a Billie or Bosco to bring the reach back. 52 sound
>> about right?
>>
>> On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 1:37:54 PM UTC-8, Joe Bernard wrote:
>>>
>>> How tall is she? That 52 is a big bike.
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: daily post ur riv

[Robert Gardner]

That’s a beaut of a Riv in the park! 

Here’s a roadini on the wall in my house (just put up this wall hanger and I 
like it!) 



More action pics, but I just took this one! 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 6, 2020, at 1:43 PM, Adam Leibow  wrote:
> 
> 
> hubbuhubbuh in golden gate park!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Friday, February 1, 2019 at 11:29:13 AM UTC-8, Adam Leibow wrote:
>> hi all, i want to create a thread where you just post a picture of your 
>> rivendell(s) whenever you feel like it. hope this is OK w/ the mods. i love 
>> lookin at pics of em all day. i will start with my sam hillborne.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
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[RBW] Re: Random Eat Bacon Don't Jog Ketones question

['Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I'm sorry, Tim, I've never used the ketone test strips.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 3:26:54 PM UTC-7, Tim Tetrault wrote:
>
> Cyclofiend Jim- feel free to delete is this is wy to far off topic for 
> this crew, I'm just not sure where else to point this.
>
> RBW Keto people (Deacon Patrick?)- do you all recall the site that Grant 
> Petersen uses to obtain ketone blood test strips from Canada for much 
> cheaper than US pricing? My daughter has T1 diabetes and it was a godsend 
> when he shared that out, I'm just not sure where he was sending people. I 
> think it popped up in a newsletter long ago, or maybe a Blahg. 
>
> Or, Grant, if you can hear me- where are you getting your blood ketone 
> test strips nowadays?
>
> Tim
>

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Re: [RBW] Can we talk about long wheelbases?

['Eric Norris' via RBW Owners Bunch]

By coincidence, Jan Heine talks about 700c vs 650b wheel sizes in today’s 
article on his Rene Herse blog:

https://www.renehersecycles.com/blog/?utm_source=Retail+Customer+Newsletter&utm_campaign=ff743aa9f0-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2017_11_29_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_f74fbd5ca8-ff743aa9f0-80276621&mc_cid=ff743aa9f0&mc_eid=fcea192cdb

--Eric N

> On Jan 6, 2020, at 3:09 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:
> 
> Aeroperf, another consideration in the way your bikes feel is the 700c 
> wheels on your Sam. It seems counterintuitive that the bigger wheel with 
> same-size tires would feel nimbler, but I wouldn't discount it. 
> 
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Re: [RBW] Can we talk about long wheelbases?

[Joe Bernard]

Aeroperf, another consideration in the way your bikes feel is the 700c wheels 
on your Sam. It seems counterintuitive that the bigger wheel with same-size 
tires would feel nimbler, but I wouldn't discount it. 

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Re: [RBW] Can we talk about long wheelbases?

[Joe Bernard]

My windy day Riv has a motor 😋

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[RBW] Random Eat Bacon Don't Jog Ketones question

[Tim Tetrault]

Cyclofiend Jim- feel free to delete is this is wy to far off topic for 
this crew, I'm just not sure where else to point this.

RBW Keto people (Deacon Patrick?)- do you all recall the site that Grant 
Petersen uses to obtain ketone blood test strips from Canada for much 
cheaper than US pricing? My daughter has T1 diabetes and it was a godsend 
when he shared that out, I'm just not sure where he was sending people. I 
think it popped up in a newsletter long ago, or maybe a Blahg. 

Or, Grant, if you can hear me- where are you getting your blood ketone test 
strips nowadays?

Tim

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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

[aeroperf]

Thanks again for the topic.
It’s 60 degrees, sunny, no wind in Atlanta, so it got me to pump up the 
tires on both the Sam and Homer and go out and do 9 miles with each.  Just 
ride.
And it is still a toss-up.  I feel more comfortable on the Sam, but I’ve 
been riding it for 5 years.  The Homer is definitely a more cushy ride, 
with a “1999 Buick LeSabre” kind of feel.  The Sam feels tighter.  Neither 
are what I’d call “nimble”, but I’d rather dodge a deer (one ran across the 
Silver Comet well in front of me today) with the Sam.

I built the Homer up from the frameset, and LBleriot has it right - I had 
to get a special longer shift cable for the bike, and it used all 116 links 
on the chain.  But that is an observation, not a purchasing factor.

I’m going to say I’d prefer a Homer with slightly shorter chainstays, or a 
Sam the same size.  For my money, and there is significant money involved, 
the chainstays on the Homer have reached their limit - any longer and the 
bike would be uncomfortable for me.  Already I consider it a bit 
“flexible”.  YMMV.


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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

['Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch]

LBleriot said of long chain stay bikes: "I wouldn't climb any alpine passes 
on these bikes."

Based on what? I've climbed (and descended) countless alpine passes, roads 
and technical trails, with mine and it climbs and descends brilliantly.

With abandon,
Patrick

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[RBW] WTB Hub Area Rack

[LBleriot]

Anyone looking to sell?

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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

[LBleriot]

I am a convert, sort of.  When I first laid eyes on the MIT Atlantis, I 
recoiled in horror.  I didn't know what to make of the long chainstays and 
the ever more sloping top tubes.  Now, having purchased a Clem H and MIT 
Atlantis I do see benefits, but as everyone is pointing out, there are some 
compromises.  They are BIG frames which require some travel and storage 
modifications, at least in my world.  Also, you'll need to buy a 
chain-and-a-half, or eight more links in my case, and perhaps longer cables 
to accommodate the longer wheelbase.  It may be me, but shifting (both 
index and friction) seems more finicky.  My rear derailleurs rattle around 
more which is surprising given that I'm using basic Shimano 8 speed setups 
on both bikes.  Also, I wouldn't climb any alpine passes on these bikes.  I 
find that these are small inconveniences given the comfort and stability 
both bikes provide on and off pavement. 

On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 7:43:56 PM UTC-5, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
wrote:
>
> I have wanted to start this thread for weeks. Fearing controversy, not 
> desiring to start fights, and worried that staff at Riv will read this, I 
> never mustered up the guts. But the long wheelbase bike topic has come up 
> in several threads now, and maybe we should just have the discussion. 
> People are wanting to buy these bikes, and since most don’t live near a 
> dealer, we need to help each other out regarding bike fit. 
>
> I got a new Clem L (unless you have been living under a ROCK you know this 
> since it’s all I talk about. Go ahead, I dare you to ask me about the color 
> of paint that it has. 😂) and it’s nothing like the other Clems I’ve known 
> and loved. Why? Because it has an even longer wheelbase than than its 
> long-wheelbase predecessors. 
>
> Recently, Rivendell pointed us to an Ask Me Anything with Grant on Reddit. 
> It was a wall of text and I read it. Folks asked their most pressing 
> questions and Grant graciously answered them. Over and over and over again 
> long wheelbase bikes were brought up, and Grant offered his opinion. Longer 
> bikes are more stable, Cadillac-like, comfortable, etc. The opposite of 
> twitchy, short-wheelbase bikes. We know this and most of us will accept it. 
>
> BUT...what I am dying to know is this: how long can you go before it is no 
> longer an improvement? 
>
> Example: My 52 Clementine was much more comfortable than my 55 Betty Foy. 
> Like it was tailor-made for me alone. The Betz was totally fine, no knocks 
> against it, but the Clementine was just more plush. So, I agree with Grant 
> - longer was better. 
>
> The problem came with my Clem L, the 2019 version that had had its 
> geometry changed. I didn’t know I was getting a different bike. I was 
> surprised when I had to buy (several) different stems and a new long 
> wheelbase bar for my Saris rack. It’s been a lot of adjustment, and I’ve 
> been frustrated. If I understand correctly, several Rivendell models have 
> been lengthened as of late. 
>
> The burning question I have: Can anyone tell us if the new longer bikes 
> are better or worse than the previous (also long) versions? We know the 
> theory, what of the reality? I’m thinking especially of the Clems, as they 
> were already SO long. But I think Atlantis people will also have something 
> to say... 
>
> I wanted to have this discussion because I genuinely want to know how the 
> newest long bikes are working out for folks. But I also want to let others 
> know that there are some things to consider if you get one of these new 
> iterations. Will a 52 Clem fit on public transport? I think no. Will it fit 
> on your vehicle hitch bike rack? Mine won’t. Will it be difficult for you 
> to park your long bike in a public rack? Can you back your bike out of your 
> garage/shed easily at this new length? What if you are right between sizes? 
> Rivendell would have you go up, I’m not sure I wouldn’t have done better on 
> the next size down. 
>
> Of course we can have this discussion and keep it kind, can’t we, Friends. 
> It would be so horrible if Rivendell staff read this and saw a lot of 
> inflammatory remarks. I think we’re allowed to have a decent and 
> informative chat, and undoubtedly some people will find it helpful. Plus, 
> maybe Rivendell will find it useful. If the extra long bikes aren’t meeting 
> expectations, maybe there will be changes to future bikes. 
>
> I did put 9 miles riding up a mountain with groceries in my front basket 
> on the new Clem L, so I’m working our relationship! 
> Leah 
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Can we talk about long wheelbases?

[Leah Peterson]

This is so helpful and so interesting. You are taller than me by half an inch, 
and you have the 45, which I would never have considered my size. I need to go 
re-measure my PBH if yours is only 81...

It’s good for everyone to know that lengthened 45 still fits on public trans - 
thanks for that! I’m married to a man whose job moves us every few years, and 
so while I’m not using buses presently, I may very well face this at our next 
location. Maybe I should have gotten the 45. 

How do you feel on his 52? Just curious. 

And lastly, you win the prize today. You have a “windy day” Rivendell bike. I 
just know I would love you. ❤️

Sent from my iPad

> On Jan 6, 2020, at 4:06 AM, Dorothy C  wrote:
> 
> My son has the 52 2019 Clem L, and I later that year built up a 45cm Clem L 
> frame for myself. We both have 81cm pbh, so could ride either size. I got the 
> 45 because they sold out of the 52. They both ride great, but his is a 
> challenge to carry up the concrete outdoor stairs to his apartment - walking 
> backwards with the bike is the easier way to do it, as it lifts the heavier 
> rear end of the bike higher. The new geometry charts were published after the 
> 2019 Clem completes and frames were sold out, for what it is worth. 
> At first I thought the 45cm would be a touch on the small side, but it fits 
> great.  I am 5’ 6” 1/2. 
> My Clem fits LA bus racks comfortably. It is definitely longer than the 
> previous geometry chart, because I checked against an Excel sheet I had 
> listing the sizing of all the potential Rivs that would fit me, that I made 
> when I was shopping for a new frame.
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

[Leah Peterson]

John, I do still have the Betty Foy. I did love it, and I still do, but Grant 
was right to change that bike in the current iteration of the Cheviots. The 
Cheviot is better named, takes a fatter tire, and has not-overly long 
chainstays. The Clementine is such a sweet ride that the Betty, lovely and 
lithe, sat neglected. I figured when the Anniversary Mixte launched I’d sell 
the Betz and get that AM. Alas, it never materialized, but word came that the 
Cheviot was getting a makeover, and the word “fancy” was even used. I figured 
I’d stop mourning the AM and get the Fancy Chev instead (figuring it would 
incorporate improvements that would make it more like the ride of the 
Clementine), and even see about getting it painted in my desired color. I 
really wanted to get bikes I can love and do life with from here on out, 
because Rivendell has not promised us they will exist in the long term via 
their Blahg. Plus, I am the type who just likes to love what she has to death.

I still plan to sell the Betz if the Cheviots are shorter than the Clems (and 
lighter). And then I’ll paint it my favorite color, deck it out with my first 
ever dyno lighting and ride off into the hills and you’ll hear no more whining 
from me!

Sent from my iPad

> On Jan 5, 2020, at 10:33 PM, John Phillips  wrote:
> 
> 
> Leah,  do you still have your Betty Foy? I hope so, it sounds like you loved 
> it.
> 
> John
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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

[aeroperf]

Thanks for this topic.  It explains a few things.
I rode a Diamondback Approach for 18 years, including when I used to live 
in Germany and would throw it on the Bahn.
It had straight bars, 3x7 speed grip shifts, and brakes big enough for 
622x42 tires.  But eventually things were falling apart.

In 2015 I retired and got a Sam.  I got the 55 size with Albatross bars, 
and it was a dream come true.  Just a touch tall for me, bit it rode so 
well…
I did notice that I couldn’t “jump a curb” as easily.
I also noticed that It wouldn’t fit on the bus rack like the Diamondback 
had, but I put that down to changes to the bus rack.

I downloaded the then current Riv geometry chart.  It showed the chain 
stays at 45.5, which matches what I just measured.  Looking at newer 
geometry charts, the Sam hasn’t changed much - chain stays have grown to 
46.5, top tube has shrunk from 59 to 58.

Then I bought an A. Homer Hilsen.  The Sam is my “everything” bike, while 
the Homer was going to be light touring.  I called Rivendell and mentioned 
the 55 Sam was a little big for me, so they suggested a 51 Homer.  This 
also meant 650b wheels.The Homer came with chain stays of 47.5.  After 
reading this thread I just backed both of them up against the garage door.  
The 51 Homer with 37x650b wheels is longer than the 55 Sam with 37x700c 
wheels.  Not much, but it’s there.

It looks like a scooter next to the Sam - lower, longer, small wheels, tall 
stem.  It rides ok, in a softer, cushier kind of way (same tire pressure).  
I haven’t had any toe overlap like I’ve had a couple of times on the Sam.  
I HAVE had a lot more pedal strikes for the same turn radius (same crank 
length), so I went to thin pedals and adapted.  The bus rack problem is no 
worse.

But if I had to do it again, I’d get the 51 Sam instead of the 51 Homer.  I 
like the feel of steel, but not the soft ride of the longer chain stays.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

[Patrick Moore]

This is an interesting discussion, and the topic is hardly inflammatory.
Leah's concerns are real ones -- the incident described below shows that.

I myself have no interest in chainstays longer than about 45 cm, though
I've not ridden a bike with longer ones, unless Indian Heros and Raleigh
Sportses have longer ones; but I have bought bikes or had modications done
for which I had high hopes only to find that they had, per the standards of
my own needs and tastes, noticeable and even serious defects of one sort or
another that turned the purchase at least a little sour. (Note that I say
"per the standards of my own needs and tastes.") Nowadays, I am very
careful to know before I purchase what exactly, say, top tubes and angles
and reaches and trails and clearances are -- not to mention fender strut
braze-ons and whether a particular rack's design will work with, say, the
Ortlieb mountin system.

My only advice is to learn to look before buying; unfortunately, that
learning sometimes involves disappointment. Whether you learn to like the
new LWB bike or learn that you prefer the older model, in either case, good
wishes.

On Sun, Jan 5, 2020 at 8:48 PM Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! <
jonasandle...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Bob Lovejoy - yes, this, all of this! I am virtually crying on your
> shoulder. Those were the words I was looking for and couldn’t come up with.
> I adore the Rivendell mixtes, and I am so sad that they are less suited for
> me than they were. I was set on getting the new Cheviot, but now I have to
> wait and see what the new dimensions will be - and I don’t even understand
> those numbers on paper, I just knew that the Clementine and Betty Foy were
> excellent for me. I have been making myself take that new Clem out on
> challenging terrain/with loads because I don’t trust it. Today I had to
> swerve to avoid something and it was so unnerving because I didn’t know if
> the bike could do what I was asking of it. It’s a long bike, and it doesn’t
> feel as nimble as my other bikes do; it was fine, crisis averted, but I’d
> never feel this way with my previous bikes. I’m left with that awful
> feeling of, “Will I ever get used to this?” “Did I make a mistake?” “Am I
> supposed to be grateful for these improvements? Am I not sophisticated
> enough to understand and appreciate them?” Because after all, I’m not the
> bike geometry expert here. But I do have an understanding, however crude
> and unrefined, of how good a properly designed and fit bicycle can ride,
> because I’ve had one. And now I’m a lot of money and time into this
> experiment.
>
> I wish I could just go back to enjoying every pedal stroke, but I know too
> much now. It’s so hard to get used to anything else. I don’t mean to sound
> ungrateful, but I am disappointed. I know I can sell the bike, but it’s not
> so bad that it can’t work. I’m just a little sad and disappointed because I
> thought it would be perfect. I think my sister would say the same about her
> 2019 Clem L, too.
>
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---
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Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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[RBW] Re: Switching Appaloosa from 700 to 650b

[Adam Leibow]

I have some bikes with virtually 0" standover which I ride fairly 
aggressively offroad. In my experience if you bail on a trail you do not 
sit down on the top tube with your legs perfectly extended downwards, 
rather throw the bike down sideways and dip off to the side in 99/100 
cases. I had a 59cm MIT atlantis (too big for me) briefly that I rode on 
some rocky-rooty-muddy trails and did not feel concerned about the absence 
of standover. If I were you I would continue riding the 62cm especially if 
you find it fits you well. If you simply can't get comfortable with the 
knowledge that there is no standover, I would buy the size smaller before 
going through the hassle (and possibly botched geo) of having a 
framebuilder move the brake posts. just my opinion

On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 7:03:12 AM UTC-8, Friend wrote:
>
> Hey Friends,
> I ride a 62cm Appaloosa and love it.  When I ride it the size seems 
> perfect.  When I straddle it the top tube is *right* in my groin.  It 
> makes me hesitant when riding it off road.  I have thought of switching it 
> to 650b rims to gain an extra 2.5 cm but I'm not sure it's worth it.  Other 
> option is trying to trade for a 58cm which I have never ridden.  Has anyone 
> been in a similar predicament?  2.5cm seems insubstantial to make the 
> switch to 650b.
>

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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

[masmojo]

Well, Leah I am glad you broached the subject not me! When I've mentioned it in 
the past it's been treated as some sort of sacrilege. 

Having a long wheelbase whether it be a longer top tube, longer chainstays, or 
both. Does get you some good things. Increased tire, fender, mud clearance. 
Decreased tendency for toe overlap, etc. And in general, increases to top tube 
lengths and chainstay lengths for larger frames makes perfect sense,  no 
argument there. Certainly, the contrary.

I think the main thing is it's basically uncharted territory; bicycle frame 
building has a century plus of evolution and whereas I am sure many people have 
experimented over the years, it's likely few if any have digested & recorded 
their findings for those that have come after them and as Grant has stated 
before there so many factors that go into a frame design you can't boil it down 
to one dimension or another. Increase the top tube, but slacken the head tube 
angle and you could end up with two frames that "feel" very similar. 
So then the question is: how long is too long? What sort of standard do you use 
to determine these new longer dimensions. Logic would dictate that there be 
some sort of % . 
Something along the lines of:
Top tube = seat tube X 110% and/or
Chainstay = seat tube X 90%
Certainly, these numbers could change depending on wheel/tire size and the end 
use of the bike.
It would just be one of those numbers that's thrown into the into the recipe/ 
blender, a benchmark, a starting point. In much the same way as 72° seat & head 
angles are their benchmarks respectively.

When I bought my Clementine, I  actually bought 2; mine a 52 and another Small 
to fit my wife, son & ultimately my daughter. But to tell the truth I am sort 
of in between sizes myself and I can ride either. The small feels just totally 
normal to me; wrenching on it riding it etc. Nothing really stood out. The 52 
felt big to me; although not in a bad way. Where I had issues was out of the 
seat pedaling, that comfortable ride everyone talks about comes at a price 
(which is totally fine as long as you know what it is).
The ride is smooth and comfortable, because long wheelbases tend to smooth out 
road irregularities, but also because the frame becomes one big leaf spring, 
gently flexing over those same road irregularities. 
This is where things start to go sideways, because if it's flexing over bumps, 
it's also flexing when you try to sprint, when you wanna climb hills, etc. A 
certain amount of this springyness is a desirable thing, but as I said earlier 
where is the line? 
If you've been buying/riding bikes as long as I have, to a certain extent every 
bike is the next on that search for the perfect bike! So far I haven't found 
it, but I  have a few that are very close.

Unfortunately, maybe Grant's still trying to find the sweet spot and maybe 
it'll take some experimenting? He's kinda gone off the standard frame designers 
script so some edits are to be expected. We'll have to see.

PS: if my posts have grammatical error, they could be intentional,  but could 
also be because I  generally post here from my phone & the spell checker is 
overzealous.

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Re: [RBW] FS: 60cm Hillborne

[Eric Daume]

Whew, my procrastination saved my bike budget!

Eric

On Monday, January 6, 2020, Jeffrey B  wrote:

> Sold
>
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> 4725dc28924f%40googlegroups.com.
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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

[Dorothy C]

Joe B
I will let you know the ETT on the 45 Clem when I get home - I rode my windy 
day bike - the Appaloosa - today

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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

[Lester Lammers]

I agree Joe. I may have just been lucky. I would NOT have bought it if I 
had to put it on a train or a bus. 

On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 10:26:39 AM UTC-5, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> "The problem is that we cyclists have a hard time wrapping our heads 
> around change."
>
> The problem - such as it is - is these longbikes may be just fine as 
> bicycles to ride (I like them), but are more of a struggle to transport 
> on/in cars or buses, carry on stairs and store at home. 
>
> This is the ongoing issue when the question comes up on recumbent forums, 
> "Why don't more people ride them?" They don't even try them because the 
> ownership issues outside of the actual riding experience are deal breakers. 
> It's unfortunate because longbikes and recumbents would be a revelation for 
> lots of people, but they're not going to find out if they can't physically 
> fit the bikes into the real lives they're really living. 
>
>

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[RBW] FS: 60cm Hillborne

[Jeffrey B]

Sold

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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

[Joe Bernard]

"The problem is that we cyclists have a hard time wrapping our heads around 
change."

The problem - such as it is - is these longbikes may be just fine as bicycles 
to ride (I like them), but are more of a struggle to transport on/in cars or 
buses, carry on stairs and store at home. 

This is the ongoing issue when the question comes up on recumbent forums, "Why 
don't more people ride them?" They don't even try them because the ownership 
issues outside of the actual riding experience are deal breakers. It's 
unfortunate because longbikes and recumbents would be a revelation for lots of 
people, but they're not going to find out if they can't physically fit the 
bikes into the real lives they're really living. 

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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

[Brian Campbell]

Long chain-chain stays allow you to differentiate yourself in a crowded 
market place. "Better" is always a relative term and for the type of riding 
I do, commuting, fun rides, the occasional brevet or loosely organized 
rides with friends, my 2013 AHH does an outstanding job at all of those 
things. 

Would another couple of inches on the chain-stays improve the ride and make 
it "better"? Maybe but there is nothing "wrong" with it at the moment that 
needs improving, IMHO. 

The recent changes in design philosophy at Riv take existing frame design 
concepts, refined over the last 100 years or so and push them to an extreme 
for an "improvement".  It very well may be an improvement in certain 
circumstances but it narrows the definition on Just Riding, when the bike 
becomes an outlier in your daily life. 

As a comparison, I recently received the Legolas I ordered and it has even 
shorter chain-stays than the AHH. The mix of light tubing, different 
geometry and shorter wheel base makes climbing hills much easier. This is 
all subjective and I don't do pseudo science experiments to prove or 
dis-prove my experience I just ride and think about how I feel.

To me the "country bike" ethos Riv spoke of when the introduced the AHH was 
something that appealed to me. I could and have re-configure the bike in a 
number of different ways depending on how I want to ride it and it always 
performs great. The new AHH, Atlantis, Appaloosa, Clems and Gus Boots all 
seem like minor variations of the same bike  The new designs seem to stress 
more specific, nuanced differences and therefor seem more limiting in my 
opinion. YMMV.

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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about long wheelbases?

[Lester Lammers]

I have a 53 MIT Atlantis and it is the most comfortable bike I have owned. 
The problem is that we cyclists have a hard time wrapping our heads around 
change.

On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 7:44:51 AM UTC-5, scott minor wrote:
>
> Great topic!  As a tall guy with a 95cm PBH, I LOVE the new found comfort 
> of riding a longer bike.  Finally, there are a few bikes that are tall 
> enough for me, and proportionally not too steep or too short feeling.   My 
> first experience with longer chainstays was with a 60cm Cheviot that I 
> originally purchased for my wife but in the end became my everyday commuter 
> for a few years.   It felt like a breakthrough in comfort, even coming from 
> a 62 Hunq but over time the Chev felt a tad small (low) for me and sure 
> enough my PBH is 1cm past the recommended fit range.  Last year I got a 
> wide-Bosco'd 59cm Clem H with full racks and fenders for everyday use.  It 
> has a longer top tube, longer chainstays and is a bit taller compared to 
> the Cheviot and is easily the most well-balanced and comfortable bike I 
> have ever ridden, which is saying a lot coming from a Hunq and Chev. My 
> Clem riding has led me to have much more interest in other LWB models, 
> especially the newer Homer and Gus, despite the 'odd' (by traditional 
> standards) appearance of these stretched out frames.  

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[RBW] Re: The last of the phenomenal Clem H’s

[Rob Kristoff]

Jason, 
great bike. LOVE the pink highlight!

Rob

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[RBW] Can we talk about long wheelbases?

[scott minor]

Great topic!  As a tall guy with a 95cm PBH, I LOVE the new found comfort of 
riding a longer bike.  Finally, there are a few bikes that are tall enough for 
me, and proportionally not too steep or too short feeling.   My first 
experience with longer chainstays was with a 60cm Cheviot that I originally 
purchased for my wife but in the end became my everyday commuter for a few 
years.   It felt like a breakthrough in comfort, even coming from a 62 Hunq but 
over time the Chev felt a tad small (low) for me and sure enough my PBH is 1cm 
past the recommended fit range.  Last year I got a wide-Bosco'd 59cm Clem H 
with full racks and fenders for everyday use.  It has a longer top tube, longer 
chainstays and is a bit taller compared to the Cheviot and is easily the most 
well-balanced and comfortable bike I have ever ridden, which is saying a lot 
coming from a Hunq and Chev.   My Clem riding has led me to have much more 
interest in other LWB models, especially the newer Homer and Gus, despite the 
'odd' (by traditional standards) appearance of these stretched out frames.  

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[RBW] Can we talk about long wheelbases?

[Joe Bernard]

Dorothy, what's the effective toptube length of your 45 L? That's a straight 
line measured from seatpost to headtube at the middle of each tube. 

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[RBW] Can we talk about long wheelbases?

[Dorothy C]

My son has the 52 2019 Clem L, and I later that year built up a 45cm Clem L 
frame for myself. We both have 81cm pbh, so could ride either size. I got the 
45 because they sold out of the 52. They both ride great, but his is a 
challenge to carry up the concrete outdoor stairs to his apartment - walking 
backwards with the bike is the easier way to do it, as it lifts the heavier 
rear end of the bike higher. The new geometry charts were published after the 
2019 Clem completes and frames were sold out, for what it is worth. 
At first I thought the 45cm would be a touch on the small side, but it fits 
great.  I am 5’ 6” 1/2. 
My Clem fits LA bus racks comfortably. It is definitely longer than the 
previous geometry chart, because I checked against an Excel sheet I had listing 
the sizing of all the potential Rivs that would fit me, that I made when I was 
shopping for a new frame.

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[RBW] Switching Appaloosa from 700 to 650b

[Tim O. (Portland, OR)]

Check out Bike Insights website. You can compare how geometry changes based on 
tire and wheel size. Gives you trail numbers and bb height and lots more. Super 
helpful for nerding out!

 https://bikeinsights.com/compare 

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