Re: [RBW] Regarding Long Chains

[Robert Tilley]

  This is good info. I'd forgotten that replacement pins are available.  I'll be using KMC chains and I bet Shimano pins would work. I have extra quick links now so I'll use those first but will probably pick up some pins to have on hand.Robert TilleySan Diego, CA Sent from my BlackBerry - the most secure mobile device   From: ed.caroli...@gmail.comSent: March 1, 2020 11:09 AMTo: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.comReply-to: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.comSubject: Re: [RBW] Regarding Long Chains  A second quick link works to join two chains but Shimano offers replacement chain pins if you want a cleaner look. Here's the 9 speed version:  https://www.jensonusa.com/Shimano-9-Speed-Chain-Pins-Set-Of-3I made the mistake of reusing a pin when I assembled my first superlong chain for a Surly Big Dummy and the link popped when I started up at a light. Just happened to be carrying 50 lbs of gear that day and didn't happen to bring along a chain tool...Also, to add to Bill's list, I use the leftover chain, along with a sacrificial tube, to secure saddles on bikes I plan to lock up. There I do re-use the pin since the chain isn't really being stressed.--Ed C.On Sunday, March 1, 2020 at 10:15:50 AM UTC-8, Robert Tilley wrote:  Are you just using quick-connects to splice the chains? So two quick-connects per finished chain? I need to create a couple of long chains and this was my plan. Mine will be 9-speed and I understand the pins on those should not be reused.Robert TilleySan Diego, CA 



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Re: [RBW] Re: Cheviot setup - chain length, front derailer

[Joe Bernard]

Benz is correct, I answered the question as it applies to the crank/derailer 
combos we know work from Riv. The first step in any new setup is to make sure 
your chain is long enough for the big/big combo that we're all taught not to 
use but sometimes it happens. 

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[RBW] Re: Appaloosa Presale

[Ken Yokanovich]

Wow, looks great Bill. I have been accumulating various parts in anticipation. 
Hoping to get notice one of these days that my frame has been shipped.

Can’t help humming “Anticipation”
https://youtu.be/0IobpIKshr8

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[RBW] FS: Saddles - Brooks, Riv., Velo Orange - reduced prices

[Chris Birkenmaier]

#2 Brooks Pro reduced to $70 shipped
#6 Brooks B17 Narrow reduced to $60 shipped

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[RBW] Re: Appaloosa Presale

[Joe Bernard]

I hope someone here grabbed the mustard Appa on Ebay. It was only there about a 
minute. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Walking boots -- not entirely unrelated to cycling

[Drw]

I’m sure there’s a difference between pull on boots and the Chelsea sort of 
boots, but if you look previously in the thread at blundstone, Rossi and 
redback boot comments, I think those all are decent to good lace less walking 
boots.

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[RBW] Re: Appaloosa Presale

[S]

Great looking build! Makes me regret I missed out on the blue in my size. 
Excellent choice for a first Riv. 

On Sunday, March 1, 2020 at 12:16:54 PM UTC-8, Bill F wrote:
>
> On Sunday, January 26, 2020 at 1:04:09 PM UTC-6, Bill F wrote:
> > Appaloosa presale is up today.  
> > 
> > I pulled the trigger on a blue 60 cm for my first Rivendell.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Clem Inventory

[Doug Hansford]

I’ll do that. Thank you, Keith. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 1, 2020, at 5:47 PM, 'Keith Swanson' via RBW Owners Bunch 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> When I bought mine they told me the next opportunity would be mid-March or 
> so.  Email Spencer and ask.  He seems to be quickest with email responses.
> 
>> On Saturday, February 29, 2020 at 3:13:08 PM UTC-8, DHans wrote:
>> I could call Riv and ask but I thought I’d check here first. Does anyone 
>> know when they will have the Clem L completes or frames back in stock? 
>> Doug
> 
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[RBW] Re: Clem Inventory

['Keith Swanson' via RBW Owners Bunch]

When I bought mine they told me the next opportunity would be mid-March or 
so.  Email Spencer and ask.  He seems to be quickest with email responses.

On Saturday, February 29, 2020 at 3:13:08 PM UTC-8, DHans wrote:
>
> I could call Riv and ask but I thought I’d check here first. Does anyone 
> know when they will have the Clem L completes or frames back in stock? 
> Doug

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Re: [RBW] Re: Vaughn's custom for sale

[Benz, Sunnyvale, CA]

Bill, I will challenge a few points you've made.

On Saturday, February 29, 2020 at 6:35:07 AM UTC+8, Bill Lindsay wrote:

>
> If that hypothetical BB shell was already on hand, then the lugged 
> assembly work would be cheaper.  Maybe not a whole lot cheaper, but not 
> more expensive.
>

Why would the lugged assembly work be cheaper, even if you have a 
compatible BB shell on hand? In both filet brazing and lugged construction, 
the tube preparation is identical. With lugged construction, there is an 
additional step of preparing the lug. I've read that the best filet braze 
requires even smaller gaps, so perhaps that's where the extra cost comes 
from?


If that hypothetical BB shell was NOT on hand and you had to go cast a new 
> one, custom, then that's prohibitive.  Say $5000-$1 and a few months to 
> get something set up to cast a new BB shell.  Once you've done the prep 
> work, then manufacturing hundreds or thousands of them is not that 
> expensive, but that first one is really expensive.  Nobody makes a true 
> custom cast lug.  No frame builder casts custom lugs for their custom 
> frames.  Will they someday, with metal 3D printing?  Perhaps, but not today.
>

Some custom builders offer custom lugs that are cut from tubes and welded 
together. These are not stamped nor cast like traditional lugs, but the 
amount of work is substantial (read: expensive). In addition, some bike 
manufacturers have already integrated 3D-printed parts into their process. 
For example, Moots and Firefly both use 3D-printed titanium dropouts 
 to meet the 
challenge of producing mounting points for flat mount disc calipers. At 
least in Firefly's case, the 3D-printed dropout is hollow but with 
reinforcement ribs. I would think this is at least as intricate and 
challenging to make as any lug, and certainly a BB shell. The question may 
be whether small custom bike builders, who practice a traditional art, have 
the skill and money to invest in such a tech. Maybe there's a market there 
for a 3D print shop that can supply custom steel lugs to individual small 
bike builders such as Nobilette.

>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Vaughn's custom for sale

[Patrick Moore]

I think it's wonderful that a Riv shop employee should be able to afford a
custom. In fact, I think that it ought to be part of the compensation
package, for employees who perform well until their 5-year anniversary.

On Sun, Mar 1, 2020 at 3:06 PM Mark Roland  wrote:

>
> *"There's something perversely decadent about a Riv shop person being able
> to afford something like this" *
> On Sunday, March 1, 2020 at 12:41:27 PM UTC-5, Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>>
>> 2. I'm not sure where employee pricing crept into this discussion.
>>
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> .
>


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---
Patrick Moore
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Re: [RBW] Re: Vaughn's custom for sale

[Joe Bernard]

Vaughn isn't a Riv shop person. Hadn't been for many years. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Vaughn's custom for sale

[Mark Roland]

*"There's something perversely decadent about a Riv shop person being able 
to afford something like this" *
On Sunday, March 1, 2020 at 12:41:27 PM UTC-5, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
>
> 2. I'm not sure where employee pricing crept into this discussion. 
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Cheviot setup - chain length, front derailer

[Benz, Sunnyvale, CA]

On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 2:24:44 AM UTC+8, Jay Lonner wrote:
>
> Joe, this picture was incredibly helpful - once I saw it the Riv 
> instructions made immediate sense. This method does result in a few more 
> links than Sheldon's guideline would call for, but I don't see an immediate 
> downside to being able to accommodate a slightly longer chain.
>

Jay, a word of caution. This method resulted in a few more links than St 
Sheldon's method, but *only* for the cassette/chainring/cage length combo 
you have now. In other combos, the Riv method may produce the same, or even 
opposite result from the Sheldon method, and may in fact result in your 
derailleur getting crunched in big-big if the cage length isn't correct for 
the cassette/chainring combo. The reason is that the Sheldon method is 
based on having enough chain, whereas the Riv method is based on having the 
longest chain that the derailleur can wrangle. In other words, if you 
ensure your derailleur has enough chain wrap, you will be fine with the Riv 
method; the Sheldon method will always ensure you have enough chain, but 
may leave a bit of dangling chain in the small-small.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Walking boots -- not entirely unrelated to cycling

[Patrick Moore]

Those are indeed elegant, too elegant for me (and overkill for high desert
Albuquerque, NM where we get a citywide average of 9" of precipitation a
year). Nor do I have a Land Rover (I would only accept a Series IIa --
that's what were common in Kenya back in the '60s and '70s when I was a
boy), though I do have an old Burberry. Seriously though, if I did a lot of
walking on muddy ground, I'd at least look at them closely.

On Sun, Mar 1, 2020 at 9:09 AM Ian A  wrote:

> Patrick wrote "Do any listmembers have experience with any Wellington or
> pull-on type boots that make good walking shoes?"
>
> This inspired me to do a quick Google UK search (I am from the UK and know
> it to be the spiritual home of wellies). I found these for only $400 a pair
> https://www.welly-king.co.uk/m/Aigle-PARCOURS-2-SIGNATURE-Rubber-Boots-in-brown-a-high-tec-welly-with-leather-lining.html
>
> If you do buy those Patrick, make sure you have enough left over for a
> series 2a Land Rover to pair with the boots for driving to the Pub of a
> Sunday.
>
> IanA Alberta Canada (a long way from home).
>
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>


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[RBW] Re: Cheviot setup - chain length, front derailer

[Joe Bernard]

Glad to be of help! ‍♂️

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Re: [RBW] Regarding Long Chains

[Robert Tilley]

Thanks! This will be on a tandem but, even as a team, we won't be putting out 
the power that an electric rear hub would. 

Robert "low torque" Tilley
San Diego, CA


Sent from my BlackBerry - the most secure mobile device


  Original Message  


From: joerem...@gmail.com
Sent: March 1, 2020 10:35 AM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Reply-to: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Regarding Long Chains


Robert, that's what I do. Technically I suppose you're not supposed to use two 
quick-links because it introduces another weak spot, but I have it on a Clem 
with an electric rear hub and haven't had a problem. There's some serious 
stress going through there.

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[RBW] Re: Cheviot setup - chain length, front derailer

[Sky Coulter]

Joe your picture and brief description is super helpfeul.

thanks,

Sky in new west

On Saturday, 29 February 2020 16:38:20 UTC-8, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Here's a not particularly easy to see shot because it's indoors and 
> everything is black, but hopefully explains what Riv is saying. 
>
> With the chain on the smallest front and rear cogs, the pulley cage is 
> sitting parallel to the bottom run of the chain. If the chain were much 
> longer it would lead to the rear of the cage kicking up until that bottom 
> run of chain was clanking into the pulleys themselves, and the chain would 
> dangle loosely in that gear. Basically you want your chain as long as you 
> can get it without that looseness/clanking happening. 
>
> Yes the derailer up high looks weird, yes it works. It shifts the 
> small/middle rings as designed, and doesn't know that somebody replaced the 
> big ring with a chain guard approximately the same size as the middle ring. 
> How this came about is Grant/Riv originally conceived this crank setup to 
> run without a fd, you would just stop and move the chain by hand. This 
> didn't make it past whoever talked them out of it when bikes were built 
> with them  
>
> On Saturday, February 29, 2020 at 4:07:56 PM UTC-8, Jay Lonner wrote: 
> > I'm making slow progress on a 55cm Cheviot build for my wife and am hung 
> up on determining the proper chain length. The Riv website says: 
> > 
> > 
> > >The chain is the right length when it pulls the derailer cage free of 
> > and parallel to the chain itself when wrapped around the smallest cog 
> > and the smallest chainring -- i.e., the derailer cage will be flexed 
> > slightly. 
> > 
> > 
> > Try as I might, I'm having a hard time visualizing what this means - can 
> anyone unpack this further for me? A picture would be even better! (The 
> there's also Sheldon's rule of thumb calling for one full link of overlap 
> when the chain is wound around the large-large chainring/sprocket combo, 
> but I'd still like to understand the Riv method). 
> > 
> > 
> > I'm also a a little stuck on front derailer options. I'm setting this up 
> with the Silver wide-low double (38x24 with chainguard) and the front 
> derailers I have on hand (IRD Alpina-f, Suntour XC-9000) both have a lot of 
> daylight between the bottom of the cage and the chainguard. It looks funny, 
> but would it affect performance? I'm open to buying a new part if needed, 
> but am getting a bit Marie Kondo and would rather declutter my parts stash 
> than add to it. 
> > 
> > 
> > Thanks, 
> > 
> > 
> > Jay Lonner 
> > Bellingham, WA 
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Regarding Long Chains

[Ed Carolipio]

A second quick link works to join two chains but Shimano offers replacement 
chain pins if you want a cleaner look. Here's the 9 speed version:

  https://www.jensonusa.com/Shimano-9-Speed-Chain-Pins-Set-Of-3

I made the mistake of reusing a pin when I assembled my first superlong 
chain for a Surly Big Dummy and the link popped when I started up at a 
light. Just happened to be carrying 50 lbs of gear that day and didn't 
happen to bring along a chain tool...

Also, to add to Bill's list, I use the leftover chain, along with a 
sacrificial tube, to secure saddles on bikes I plan to lock up. There I do 
re-use the pin since the chain isn't really being stressed.

--Ed C.

On Sunday, March 1, 2020 at 10:15:50 AM UTC-8, Robert Tilley wrote:
>
> Are you just using quick-connects to splice the chains? So two 
> quick-connects per finished chain? I need to create a couple of long chains 
> and this was my plan. Mine will be 9-speed and I understand the pins on 
> those should not be reused.
>
> Robert Tilley
> San Diego, CA
>
>
>

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[RBW] FS: Nitto Bosco Bars (52cm HT Alu; 55cm Chromo)

[Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY]

Brooklyn dibs on the chromo! If still available...
-Kai

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Re: [RBW] Regarding Long Chains

[Joe Bernard]

Robert, that's what I do. Technically I suppose you're not supposed to use two 
quick-links because it introduces another weak spot, but I have it on a Clem 
with an electric rear hub and haven't had a problem. There's some serious 
stress going through there. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Cheviot setup - chain length, front derailer

[Joe Bernard]

Yes, it leaves plenty of room for the chain to work in the big/big combo. I've 
made that mistake before, and you don't want to know what happens when your 
chain stretches into that situation and doesn't want to come back off it. BAD 
things  

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Re: [RBW] Re: Cheviot setup - chain length, front derailer

[Jay Lonner]

Joe, this picture was incredibly helpful - once I saw it the Riv
instructions made immediate sense. This method does result in a few more
links than Sheldon's guideline would call for, but I don't see an immediate
downside to being able to accommodate a slightly longer chain.

Jay Lonner
Bellingham, WA

On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 4:38 PM Joe Bernard  wrote:

> Here's a not particularly easy to see shot because it's indoors and
> everything is black, but hopefully explains what Riv is saying.
>
> With the chain on the smallest front and rear cogs, the pulley cage is
> sitting parallel to the bottom run of the chain. If the chain were much
> longer it would lead to the rear of the cage kicking up until that bottom
> run of chain was clanking into the pulleys themselves, and the chain would
> dangle loosely in that gear. Basically you want your chain as long as you
> can get it without that looseness/clanking happening.
>
> Yes the derailer up high looks weird, yes it works. It shifts the
> small/middle rings as designed, and doesn't know that somebody replaced the
> big ring with a chain guard approximately the same size as the middle ring.
> How this came about is Grant/Riv originally conceived this crank setup to
> run without a fd, you would just stop and move the chain by hand. This
> didn't make it past whoever talked them out of it when bikes were built
> with them 
>
> On Saturday, February 29, 2020 at 4:07:56 PM UTC-8, Jay Lonner wrote:
> > I'm making slow progress on a 55cm Cheviot build for my wife and am hung
> up on determining the proper chain length. The Riv website says:
> >
> >
> > >The chain is the right length when it pulls the derailer cage free of
> > and parallel to the chain itself when wrapped around the smallest cog
> > and the smallest chainring -- i.e., the derailer cage will be flexed
> > slightly.
> >
> >
> > Try as I might, I'm having a hard time visualizing what this means - can
> anyone unpack this further for me? A picture would be even better! (The
> there's also Sheldon's rule of thumb calling for one full link of overlap
> when the chain is wound around the large-large chainring/sprocket combo,
> but I'd still like to understand the Riv method).
> >
> >
> > I'm also a a little stuck on front derailer options. I'm setting this up
> with the Silver wide-low double (38x24 with chainguard) and the front
> derailers I have on hand (IRD Alpina-f, Suntour XC-9000) both have a lot of
> daylight between the bottom of the cage and the chainguard. It looks funny,
> but would it affect performance? I'm open to buying a new part if needed,
> but am getting a bit Marie Kondo and would rather declutter my parts stash
> than add to it.
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> >
> > Jay Lonner
> > Bellingham, WA
>
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Re: [RBW] Regarding Long Chains

[Robert Tilley]

  Are you just using quick-connects to splice the chains? So two quick-connects per finished chain? I need to create a couple of long chains and this was my plan. Mine will be 9-speed and I understand the pins on those should not be reused.Robert TilleySan Diego, CA Sent from my BlackBerry - the most secure mobile device   From: tapebu...@gmail.comSent: March 1, 2020 8:24 AMTo: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.comReply-to: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.comSubject: [RBW] Regarding Long Chains  If you have a long chainstay bike like a MIT Atlantis or a Clem, etc, you'll need a chain longer than a regular 116 link chain.  There are a few ways to get this done:1. Some people like me stock up on chains, and when they need a long one they splice two together, and go.  The massive excess on chain #2 becomes the next donor for the next time I need a chain.  I get roughly 4 long chains out of 5 real chains.   2. Some people buy two chains, make one long chain, and discard or mislay the excess.  Some of those people complain about how Rivendells are twice as expensive to maintain, or point out how it is crazy that Grant shouldn't designs bikes with long chainstays in the first place.  3. Rivendell has a long chain they can sell you https://www.rivbike.com/collections/chains/products/long-chain but it's Out of StockI'm posting this to explain how that long chain thing works.  They have a huge continuous roll of chain.  To get chains "In Stock" somebody just needs to put aside the time to cut 20 lengths off the roll, and put them in ziploc bags.  I went in yesterday, needing a chain for my MIT Atlantis.  Will walked me back there to the roll, cut off a length and tossed it in the bag and sold it to me.  He said "man, I need to make some of these and put them up on the site".  As he was making mine, Vince walked by and said "Oh, good, you're making long chains for the site!"  So if you need a long 9-speed chain, Riv can definitely sell you one.  If it's not in stock, call them up and say "Make 10 and sell me one".  They'll make it happen for you.  Bill LindsayEl Cerrito, CA' Rivendell Bicycle Works has a part number for a long chain:  https://www.rivbike.com/collections/chains/products/long-chain



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Re: [RBW] Re: Vaughn's custom for sale

[Joe Bernard]

Two points without digging through all this again:

1. Although I personally never said otherwise, I still want to add that - as a 
customer myself - I don't think Riv customs are overpriced. They're designed by 
a guy who's been doing this a long time, built by a trusted builder who's 
brazed a lot of frames, and painted by the best in the business. 

Yes you can find a cheaper custom builder, but I think some folks get googley 
eyes over the phrase "hand built" and just assume everyone doing that job is 
super great at it and all customs are equal quality. This seems unrealistic to 
me. 

2. I'm not sure where employee pricing crept into this discussion. Vaughn 
hasn't worked there in, what, 10 years? If $3300 was 'at cost' at the time of 
this build then I presume he paid the $3500 buy-in that was available until 
recently (it's $4000 now). My understanding is there isn't much of an employee 
discount on ANY Riv frame, and I'm confused how this entered the thread. I'm 
sure Vaughn paid full pop, and the buyer of that "mistake" frame paid pretty 
close. 

That is all. It's Sunday, let's ride!
Joe Bernard

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[RBW] Re: FS: 60cm Cheviot complete, Crust Towel Rack build

[Kiley Demond]

further clarification: at least that is the year I bought it from 
Rivendell. 

On Sunday, March 1, 2020 at 9:51:07 AM UTC-7, Kiley Demond wrote:
>
> Hey, to whoever bought this frame from you: assuming it was the one I 
> sold, it is a 2016. 
>
> On Wednesday, February 5, 2020 at 12:01:58 PM UTC-7, Gabriel Bruguier 
> wrote:
>>
>>
>> The Cheviot frameset has been sold.  
>>
>> I'm going to hang on to the remaining parts for the time being.  
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: FS: 60cm Cheviot complete, Crust Towel Rack build

[Kiley Demond]

Hey, to whoever bought this frame from you: assuming it was the one I sold, 
it is a 2016. 

On Wednesday, February 5, 2020 at 12:01:58 PM UTC-7, Gabriel Bruguier wrote:
>
>
> The Cheviot frameset has been sold.  
>
> I'm going to hang on to the remaining parts for the time being.  
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Vaughn's custom for sale

[Steve Cole]

Mark,

Here, here!  I couldn't agree with you more.  As a fairly long time RBW 
customer, I have always found them to bend over backwards to meet whatever 
needs I have.  I highly value them and am grateful every day and every ride 
that Grant created this business, these bikes, and this community  -- the 
one we all are a part of, which includes him and all those who work at RBW 
too.

Steve (deeply grateful for RBW) Cole
Arlington, VA

On Sunday, March 1, 2020 at 6:14:14 AM UTC-7, Mark Roland wrote:
>
> I had the same reaction as Hugh and John to this thread. 
>
> I understand this point of view:
> *What other company of their size gets such sincere and direct feedback 
> and with little to no expense for re-engagement?*
> But the tone of this thread was, to me, more like non-constructive, 
> non-helpful criticism. 
>
> As a long-time Rivendell customer, I've had a couple of interactions that 
> were less than perfect. But that is the nature of most relationships. And 
> the overwhelming majority of the time the company has gone above and 
> beyond. 
>
> Two recent examples.
>
> I pre-ordered one of the Cheviot sweaters. It came, it's beautiful. (I've 
> been trying to find time to do a post about it.) I consider it a fantastic 
> bargain. And then Rivendell decides they, I don't know? made too much money 
> on it, so they send everyone who bought the sweater $25 gift certificates. 
> Point me to another company that would do that. I would like to patronize 
> them. (Funny enough, the "mistake" element entered here too, as they 
> initially sent out certificates for $20 instead of $25. I had only the 
> slightest fleeting thought of pointing out this "error." ) I get that it is 
> partly marketing to a segment of its business that will order something 
> sight unseen, and the certificate could potentially be a sales stimulant, 
> but still.
>
> Second example. I bought a second-hand Clementine to replace the one I had 
> to sell for financial reasons a while back. There was something not quite 
> right, so I called Riv to discuss and see if my idea to fix it made sense. 
> They offered a brand-new replacement frame and fork. On a four-year old 
> bike. Of which I was not the original owner.
>
> I'm not saying nobody should ever criticize Rivendell. But this was about 
> a one-off sale, a bike where either communication went awry or the builder 
> had a bad day, or whatever. And Rivendell laid out the various "defects" 
> and offered the bike for sale. Why that needed to have feedback is 
> questionable to me. But then it spirals into finding stuff hidden in the 
> warehouse (see the Crust basement sales on Instagram; this is a feature not 
> a bug!) the cost of Riv customs, and how perverse it is that a Rivendell 
> employee can afford a Rivendell. Maybe Rivendell customs cost a lot because 
> they pay the builder and painter what their skills are worth, then make a 
> bit on top of that as the designer and facilitator. Maybe a Rivendell 
> employee can afford a Riv because they get a company discount, and because 
> the company pays a living wage.
>
> Most on this list are, by definition, at least slightly obsessed with 
> bicycles. Between this type of consumer, and the chance consumer who likes 
> "quality" and happens to hear about or see a Rivendell in the wild, that's 
> a niche market within a niche market within a hurting industry. Most people 
> thinking of buying a bicycle would think a Clem Smith Jr. is too expensive. 
> Those that don't, if they had heard of a Clem Smith Jr. would mostly scoff 
> at it and get a carbon machine.
>
>  Anyone considering a custom bicycle is aware of other options and price 
> points, so I'm not sure that falls under constructive criticism either. 
> That would imply Rivendell getting this info and thinking about changing 
> its pricing structure due to the feedback. I think its safe to say 
> Rivendell charges what they need to charge for customs and still adhere to 
> their business tenets. I also find it odd that many are quick to criticize 
> Rivendell's financial woes, yet find the price of a custom too high. 
>
> Anyway, end of ramble. Athough it sometimes feels like piling on, I do 
> appreciate the various viewpoints. (I just wanted to make sure the correct 
> one got out there;^)
>
> On Saturday, February 29, 2020 at 7:57:05 PM UTC-5, Hugh Flynn wrote:
>>
>> Ok, fair enough, but I don't recall shushing anyone or implying one needs 
>> to pass a Riv loyalty test. I simply find the tone of outrage and insult 
>> over a frame being sold at cost a bit odd. I'm guessing the the builder and 
>> painter got paid. It's a custom. They don't come at scale prices.  
>>
>> If I were selling it, I might have knocked a bit off for the paint chip, 
>> but I'm not selling it or buying it, so my thoughts on the matter are 
>> pretty meaningless. That said, I'm the fist to ridicule Rapha and others 
>> for "epic" marketing and bro-tuned adds - and I'm about as far away 

[RBW] Regarding Long Chains

[tc]

This is true. This very thing happened recently on a call I had with Vince. Out 
of stock just means they haven’t had the time to cut’em & bag’em. 

Tom

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[RBW] Re: Clem Inventory

[Steve Cole]

It's always worth a call to RBW as they sometimes find the exact thing you 
are looking for that had been out of the way.

Steve Cole
Arlington, VA

On Saturday, February 29, 2020 at 4:13:08 PM UTC-7, DHans wrote:
>
> I could call Riv and ask but I thought I’d check here first. Does anyone 
> know when they will have the Clem L completes or frames back in stock? 
> Doug

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[RBW] Regarding Long Chains

[Bill Lindsay]

If you have a long chainstay bike like a MIT Atlantis or a Clem, etc, 
you'll need a chain longer than a regular 116 link chain.  There are a few 
ways to get this done:

1. Some people like me stock up on chains, and when they need a long one 
they splice two together, and go.  The massive excess on chain #2 becomes 
the next donor for the next time I need a chain.  I get roughly 4 long 
chains out of 5 real chains.   

2. Some people buy two chains, make one long chain, and discard or mislay 
the excess.  Some of those people complain about how Rivendells are twice 
as expensive to maintain, or point out how it is crazy that Grant shouldn't 
designs bikes with long chainstays in the first place.  

3. Rivendell has a long chain they can sell you 
https://www.rivbike.com/collections/chains/products/long-chain https://www.rivbike.com/collections/chains/products/long-chain> but it's 
Out of Stock

I'm posting this to explain how that long chain thing works.  They have a 
huge continuous roll of chain.  To get chains "In Stock" somebody just 
needs to put aside the time to cut 20 lengths off the roll, and put them in 
ziploc bags.  I went in yesterday, needing a chain for my MIT Atlantis.  
Will walked me back there to the roll, cut off a length and tossed it in 
the bag and sold it to me.  He said "man, I need to make some of these and 
put them up on the site".  As he was making mine, Vince walked by and said 
"Oh, good, you're making long chains for the site!"  

So if you need a long 9-speed chain, Riv can definitely sell you one.  If 
it's not in stock, call them up and say "Make 10 and sell me one".  They'll 
make it happen for you.  

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA


'
 

Rivendell Bicycle Works has a part number for a long chain:  
https://www.rivbike.com/collections/chains/products/long-chain

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[RBW] Re: Walking boots -- not entirely unrelated to cycling

[Ian A]

Patrick wrote "Do any listmembers have experience with any Wellington or 
pull-on type boots that make good walking shoes?"

This inspired me to do a quick Google UK search (I am from the UK and know it 
to be the spiritual home of wellies). I found these for only $400 a pair 
https://www.welly-king.co.uk/m/Aigle-PARCOURS-2-SIGNATURE-Rubber-Boots-in-brown-a-high-tec-welly-with-leather-lining.html

If you do buy those Patrick, make sure you have enough left over for a series 
2a Land Rover to pair with the boots for driving to the Pub of a Sunday.

IanA Alberta Canada (a long way from home).

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[RBW] Re: FS Musette, Messenger Bags, Leather Tool Bag

[Matt H]

Hey, I'll take that Billykirk off your hands for $25. PayPal OK?

Thanks,
Matt

On Sunday, March 1, 2020 at 10:30:32 AM UTC-5, Craig Montgomery wrote:
>
> Bump and price drop $5 on each item. The musette is gone.
>
> Craig in Tucson
>
> On Thursday, February 27, 2020 at 2:34:07 PM UTC-7, Craig Montgomery wrote:
>>
>> Have to rejuvenate bike funds. All bags are in excellent structural 
>> shape. Posted to iBooB and 650B. 
>>
>> Strawfoot Musette-waxed canvas. Not used by me. Just hanging around. $30 
>> shipped. 
>>
>>  https://strawfoothandmade.com/products/cycling-musette
>>
>> Timbuk2 Classic Messenger. XS. Suffers from "use dirt" but easily 
>> cleanable if you're of the mind. Needed something larger. The book is 
>> Clifford Graves' *Frontline Surgeons.* 10"x 7"x 1 1/2"  You don't get 
>> the book. $25 shipped
>>
>>  
>> https://www.timbuk2.com/collections/all-messenger-bags/products/1108-classic-messenger-bag
>>
>> Timbuk2 TSF13-believe this is discontinued but it's like their Sling 
>> model in size. Worn 2 or 3 times. It's longer and and narrower than 
>> standard messenger. $25 shipped.
>>
>>  
>> https://www.timbuk2.com/collections/all-messenger-bags/products/1265-catapult-sling-20?variant=31311053324330
>>
>> Billykirk Frame Bag/Pack-high in "cool" quotient. Big enough for basic 
>> tool kit or doodahs. Can stuff a 700c x 28/32 tube in there along with 
>> patch kit. Never used but shelf wear. $30 shipped. 
>>
>>  
>> https://www.billykirk.com/collections/bike-accessories/products/no-211-bike-pouch-black
>>
>> Craig in Tucson
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Vaughn's custom for sale

[Ian A]

Snipped from Mark's response:  "Maybe a Rivendell employee can afford a Riv 
because they get a company discount, and because the company pays a living 
wage."

This is a really great point, and maybe exposes certain unconscious bias, even 
among us enthusiats. I'm guessing a fair few Riv workers live car-free or 
extremely car-lite. If a Riv employee spent their wages on a Toyota Echo no one 
would bat an eye lid, but investing in a bespoke bicycle can raise eyebrows. 
Despite the real cost of the custom bicycle being a fraction of the cost of 
typical car ownership.

People rarely regret paying for good quality.


IanA Alberta Canada

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[RBW] Re: FS Musette, Messenger Bags, Leather Tool Bag

[Craig Montgomery]

Bump and price drop $5 on each item. The musette is gone.

Craig in Tucson

On Thursday, February 27, 2020 at 2:34:07 PM UTC-7, Craig Montgomery wrote:
>
> Have to rejuvenate bike funds. All bags are in excellent structural shape. 
> Posted to iBooB and 650B. 
>
> Strawfoot Musette-waxed canvas. Not used by me. Just hanging around. $30 
> shipped. 
>
>  https://strawfoothandmade.com/products/cycling-musette
>
> Timbuk2 Classic Messenger. XS. Suffers from "use dirt" but easily 
> cleanable if you're of the mind. Needed something larger. The book is 
> Clifford Graves' *Frontline Surgeons.* 10"x 7"x 1 1/2"  You don't get the 
> book. $25 shipped
>
>  
> https://www.timbuk2.com/collections/all-messenger-bags/products/1108-classic-messenger-bag
>
> Timbuk2 TSF13-believe this is discontinued but it's like their Sling model 
> in size. Worn 2 or 3 times. It's longer and and narrower than standard 
> messenger. $25 shipped.
>
>  
> https://www.timbuk2.com/collections/all-messenger-bags/products/1265-catapult-sling-20?variant=31311053324330
>
> Billykirk Frame Bag/Pack-high in "cool" quotient. Big enough for basic 
> tool kit or doodahs. Can stuff a 700c x 28/32 tube in there along with 
> patch kit. Never used but shelf wear. $30 shipped. 
>
>  
> https://www.billykirk.com/collections/bike-accessories/products/no-211-bike-pouch-black
>
> Craig in Tucson
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Vaughn's custom for sale

[Mark Roland]

Whoops. Meant to add, the reason for the bottom bracket being fillet-brazed 
is right in the product description. 

*"More unusually, the down tube is 28.6mm. That’s skinnier than normal, but 
we had lugs for it. But no BB shell, so the BB area is fillet-brazed."*

I wouldn't think, with a custom, cost would have much to do with it.


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[RBW] Meet Bruce, The Touring Guy on an Atlantis

[John A. Bennett]

Bruce bought an Atlantis from us at Rivelo (Portland, Ore.) last year with 
the idea of retiring from his job and taking to the open road. 

He started that tour yesterday, and sent the following dispatch. If you 
want to live vicariously, follow along. Links below. If you want to let him 
surf your sofa, follow along! 

Onward, Bruce! 


I’m underway-1 day of riding in the book. Below is the tracker etc I 
mentioned. If you’re so inclined perhaps you could connect me with the 
Rivelo and Rivendell fan base. Maybe I could occasionally poach a night on 
a couch here and there.
Thanks.

I'm heading to Santa Cruz on Feb 28th and starting my ride on Leap Day. 
Here are some ways to stay in touch:
Here's a link to a mapshare site tied to my satellite tracker: 
share.garmin.com/E36U4 
I'll be posting iphone photos, text and generally boring items on a Tumblr 
site: https://atlantisontheedge.tumblr.com/
email: freemanbruc...@gmail.com
cell: 971-678-1430

I'll be expecting you to heckle me, encourage, ask questions, answer 
questions and stay in touch. Thanks for everything and especially for 
making the last couple of weeks so memorable, surreal and great.
If you're looking for an interesting vacation use the satellite tracker and 
come find me out on the road. I'll be glad to let you carry a large portion 
of my gear.

Bruce


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[RBW] FS: Nitto Bosco Bars (52cm HT Alu; 55cm Chromo)

[Bob B]

You can tell these are my favorite bars because I have four of them to my name 
right now. But I only need two so I’m selling these. Both have been mounted and 
ridden but cared for and are in good condition.

Pics: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1NCxudQcG_5bKMKEU98ji6c9LnQ55tpMZ

Steep local NYC pickup discounts can be negotiated! These are so big they cost 
more than $20 to ship!

52cm HT Alu: $65 shipped
55cm CRMO: $50 shipped

Both together? $105 shipped 

Please PM for inquiry.

Thank you!

Bob B. 
Brooklyn, NY

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[RBW] Re: Clem Inventory

[Justin Kennedy (Brooklyn, NY)]

There's a big green one (64cm) on the site now at a small discount. 
Otherwise, I would guess summer or fall. 

https://www.rivbike.com/collections/web-special-framesets-and-bicycles/products/leap-year-special-64cm-clem-l-complete



On Saturday, February 29, 2020 at 6:13:08 PM UTC-5, DHans wrote:
>
> I could call Riv and ask but I thought I’d check here first. Does anyone 
> know when they will have the Clem L completes or frames back in stock? 
> Doug

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[RBW] Re: Cheviot setup - chain length, front derailer

[Justin Kennedy (Brooklyn, NY)]

Riv had long chains 
 for sale 
on the site but it appears they're sold out. This one mentions 130 links. I 
think I have 128 link-chain of my 60cm Chev (two spliced together) but only 
8 speed rear derailer, not 9, and no front derailer (using the big ring on 
the same set up as you with manual shifting/placement on the small when I 
need it (almost never)).It's probably better to go too long than too short 
but 130 linx should be a good start.   

On Saturday, February 29, 2020 at 7:07:56 PM UTC-5, Jay Lonner wrote:
>
> I'm making slow progress on a 55cm Cheviot build for my wife and am hung 
> up on determining the proper chain length. The Riv website says:
>
> >The chain is the right length when it pulls the derailer cage free of and 
> parallel to the chain itself when wrapped around the smallest cog and the 
> smallest chainring -- i.e., the derailer cage will be flexed slightly.
>
> Try as I might, I'm having a hard time visualizing what this means - can 
> anyone unpack this further for me? A picture would be even better! (The 
> there's also Sheldon's rule of thumb calling for one full link of overlap 
> when the chain is wound around the large-large chainring/sprocket combo, 
> but I'd still like to understand the Riv method).
>
> I'm also a a little stuck on front derailer options. I'm setting this up 
> with the Silver wide-low double (38x24 with chainguard) and the front 
> derailers I have on hand (IRD Alpina-f, Suntour XC-9000) both have a lot of 
> daylight between the bottom of the cage and the chainguard. It looks funny, 
> but would it affect performance? I'm open to buying a new part if needed, 
> but am getting a bit Marie Kondo and would rather declutter my parts stash 
> than add to it.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jay Lonner
> Bellingham, WA
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Vaughn's custom for sale

[Mark Roland]

I had the same reaction as Hugh and John to this thread. 

I understand this point of view:
*What other company of their size gets such sincere and direct feedback and 
with little to no expense for re-engagement?*
But the tone of this thread was, to me, more like non-constructive, 
non-helpful criticism. 

As a long-time Rivendell customer, I've had a couple of interactions that 
were less than perfect. But that is the nature of most relationships. And 
the overwhelming majority of the time the company has gone above and 
beyond. 

Two recent examples.

I pre-ordered one of the Cheviot sweaters. It came, it's beautiful. (I've 
been trying to find time to do a post about it.) I consider it a fantastic 
bargain. And then Rivendell decides they, I don't know? made too much money 
on it, so they send everyone who bought the sweater $25 gift certificates. 
Point me to another company that would do that. I would like to patronize 
them. (Funny enough, the "mistake" element entered here too, as they 
initially sent out certificates for $20 instead of $25. I had only the 
slightest fleeting thought of pointing out this "error." ) I get that it is 
partly marketing to a segment of its business that will order something 
sight unseen, and the certificate could potentially be a sales stimulant, 
but still.

Second example. I bought a second-hand Clementine to replace the one I had 
to sell for financial reasons a while back. There was something not quite 
right, so I called Riv to discuss and see if my idea to fix it made sense. 
They offered a brand-new replacement frame and fork. On a four-year old 
bike. Of which I was not the original owner.

I'm not saying nobody should ever criticize Rivendell. But this was about a 
one-off sale, a bike where either communication went awry or the builder 
had a bad day, or whatever. And Rivendell laid out the various "defects" 
and offered the bike for sale. Why that needed to have feedback is 
questionable to me. But then it spirals into finding stuff hidden in the 
warehouse (see the Crust basement sales on Instagram; this is a feature not 
a bug!) the cost of Riv customs, and how perverse it is that a Rivendell 
employee can afford a Rivendell. Maybe Rivendell customs cost a lot because 
they pay the builder and painter what their skills are worth, then make a 
bit on top of that as the designer and facilitator. Maybe a Rivendell 
employee can afford a Riv because they get a company discount, and because 
the company pays a living wage.

Most on this list are, by definition, at least slightly obsessed with 
bicycles. Between this type of consumer, and the chance consumer who likes 
"quality" and happens to hear about or see a Rivendell in the wild, that's 
a niche market within a niche market within a hurting industry. Most people 
thinking of buying a bicycle would think a Clem Smith Jr. is too expensive. 
Those that don't, if they had heard of a Clem Smith Jr. would mostly scoff 
at it and get a carbon machine.

 Anyone considering a custom bicycle is aware of other options and price 
points, so I'm not sure that falls under constructive criticism either. 
That would imply Rivendell getting this info and thinking about changing 
its pricing structure due to the feedback. I think its safe to say 
Rivendell charges what they need to charge for customs and still adhere to 
their business tenets. I also find it odd that many are quick to criticize 
Rivendell's financial woes, yet find the price of a custom too high. 

Anyway, end of ramble. Athough it sometimes feels like piling on, I do 
appreciate the various viewpoints. (I just wanted to make sure the correct 
one got out there;^)

On Saturday, February 29, 2020 at 7:57:05 PM UTC-5, Hugh Flynn wrote:
>
> Ok, fair enough, but I don't recall shushing anyone or implying one needs 
> to pass a Riv loyalty test. I simply find the tone of outrage and insult 
> over a frame being sold at cost a bit odd. I'm guessing the the builder and 
> painter got paid. It's a custom. They don't come at scale prices.  
>
> If I were selling it, I might have knocked a bit off for the paint chip, 
> but I'm not selling it or buying it, so my thoughts on the matter are 
> pretty meaningless. That said, I'm the fist to ridicule Rapha and others 
> for "epic" marketing and bro-tuned adds - and I'm about as far away from 
> being a customer of "epic" goods as one can get. So where does that leave 
> me? Probably somewhat more reflective about MY comments than I was earlier 
> today...
>
> Hugh "got no dog in this fight" Flynn
> Newburyport, MA
>
> On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 2:36 PM Joe Bernard  > wrote:
>
>> Yes, there's exactly more to it as has generated discussion. The attitude 
>> that we have to shush and never be critical of anything is not helpful or 
>> healthy. 
>>
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