Re: [RBW] Anaerobic Power, Aerobic Effort

[Daniel M]

Hi Deacon,

One of my first full-scale bike tinkering projects about 8 years ago was 
converting a 90’s Japanese steel road bike to fixed gear. I really enjoyed it 
but it was a little too small for me, so I sold it after a few months. I have 
another fixie project in my mind for the future and your enthusiastic posts 
have done nothing but encourage me. 

Daniel

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [RBW] Anaerobic Power, Aerobic Effort

[Patrick Moore]

I tend to agree with this, and will only add that, just perhaps, one
difference with riding a freewheel is that you become habituated -- ie, do
it without thinking -- to keeping your pedaling ahead of the drivetrain in
a way that you don't with a freewheel, which may -- "may" -- allow just
enough hesitation or lag that it is noticeable by its absence.

Just a guess here. The only evidence I have for this is that riding fixed
somehow does feel more efficient than riding in a similar but fw gear (I do
that all the time on a derailleur bike, since I tend not to shift a great
deal for hills), and #2, that after getting off a fixed and getting on a
coater, I tend to pedal squares for a few hundred yards.


On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 9:20 AM, Daniel M  wrote:

> If you put continuous forward pressure on a freewheel drivetrain, there is
> NO difference from putting continuous forward pressure on a fixed gear
> drivetrain. The top of the chain is taut and the bottom is slack; there is
> simply no "freewheel effect" or, for that matter, any difference at all
> between the two drivetrains when you are applying forward pressure. I've
> seen so many descriptions and claims that a fixed drivetrain allows you to
> apply torque through greater portion of the pedal stroke and this is just
> nonsense; if you apply continuous forward pressure, the rear cog has no
> "knowledge" of whether it will freewheel or not when that pressure is
> released.
>
> This is not to say there isn't something magic about riding a fixed gear.
> I can imagine that if you get tired and begin to let off pressure at the
> top/bottom of your power stroke so as to be momentarily torque-neutral, the
> fixed drivetrain carrying the pedals past the top/bottom might be welcome,
> but that only applies if you stop applying forward pressure. I also suspect
> that fixed gear setups often end up on relatively lightweight steel frames,
> and that being forced to mash up hills in high gears enables people to
> experience frame flex ("planing", but I'm not a fan of that term) for the
> first time. If planing is a thing, then this DOES in fact allow you to
> transmit more power per stroke, but this is due to the (elastic potential)
> energy momentarily stored in the frame at max flex, not due to some
> drivetrain magic.
>
> Daniel M
> Berkeley, CA
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>



-- 
Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
Other professional writing services.
http://www.resumespecialties.com/
www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, New Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique
**
**
*Auditis an me ludit amabilis insania?*

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [RBW] Anaerobic Power, Aerobic Effort

[Deacon Patrick]

Daniel, have you ridden fixed?

With abandon,
Patrick

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [RBW] Anaerobic Power, Aerobic Effort

[Daniel M]

If you put continuous forward pressure on a freewheel drivetrain, there is NO 
difference from putting continuous forward pressure on a fixed gear drivetrain. 
The top of the chain is taut and the bottom is slack; there is simply no 
"freewheel effect" or, for that matter, any difference at all between the two 
drivetrains when you are applying forward pressure. I've seen so many 
descriptions and claims that a fixed drivetrain allows you to apply torque 
through greater portion of the pedal stroke and this is just nonsense; if you 
apply continuous forward pressure, the rear cog has no "knowledge" of whether 
it will freewheel or not when that pressure is released.

This is not to say there isn't something magic about riding a fixed gear. I can 
imagine that if you get tired and begin to let off pressure at the top/bottom 
of your power stroke so as to be momentarily torque-neutral, the fixed 
drivetrain carrying the pedals past the top/bottom might be welcome, but that 
only applies if you stop applying forward pressure. I also suspect that fixed 
gear setups often end up on relatively lightweight steel frames, and that being 
forced to mash up hills in high gears enables people to experience frame flex 
("planing", but I'm not a fan of that term) for the first time. If planing is a 
thing, then this DOES in fact allow you to transmit more power per stroke, but 
this is due to the (elastic potential) energy momentarily stored in the frame 
at max flex, not due to some drivetrain magic.

Daniel M
Berkeley, CA

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [RBW] Anaerobic Power, Aerobic Effort

[Patrick Moore]

I'd like to know more about this. I know that the "flywheel" idea has been
around for, probably, a century and more, and so many people claim that
climbing is faster with a fixed drivetrain in a given gear than in the same
gear with a freewheel.

I can't say that my '03 errand Riv fixie (70") feels particularly fast up
hills; my 76" gofast does, but it's quite a bit lighter -- 8 lb lighter, I
think.

It has been too long since I rode a bike with similar gear as well as
similar tires, weight, setup, and so on, to my fixies to recall if they
climbed as well as fixed; the last, the Ram, had a similar gear, but it was
a rather different bike, with relatively heavy 700C wheels and weighing
more than my fixies, so it's hard to compare them. At any rate, I even then
tended to climb in highish gears; 60" was low unless I was very tired or
had a vile headwind.

Others, chime in -- but with precise descriptions of person experience, if
not mathematical evidence.

I did notice that in some of my regular, rolling hills,
many-stop-signs/traffic-lights routes, my speed on the gofast was
disappointingly similar to that on, say, the 14-15-lb heavier Fargo, which
I put down to coasting speeds and slower acceleration after the many stops
in the highish (for me) 75-6" gear. Or perhaps I'm just slow on every bike?

Patrick Moore, who misses those rolling hills rides in nearby Rio Rancho,
NM, where his mother used to live -- must get out there more!

Patrick Moore, who lives, and now rides too exclusively, in the RG valley
floor, where, north-to-south, it's flat, flat, flat, with only sand and
winds to create manly obstacles.

On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 5:01 PM, Deacon Patrick  wrote:

> Does your geared bike have a matching gear to a fixed? If so, the flywheel
> effect should be notacible, though there are multiple levels of getting
> more and more scientific to compare the two efforts. But if you ride them
> both on the same day, two days in a row, alternating which one is first,
> then compare times and percieved effort level, the result would be
> interesting.
>
> My own macro observations are that my average speed is nearly identicle to
> freewheel, but my climbing speed is increased while my descent speed has
> decreased. Sincle climbing speed increased immediately on switching to
> fixed gear, with a similar gear to my freewheel ss, that points to the
> flywheel effect. Like you though, the physics of it baffle me, but I don’t
> really care. The difference it makes for my brain when riding is enormous.
> Grin.
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>



-- 
Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
Other professional writing services.
http://www.resumespecialties.com/
www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, New Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique
**
**
*Auditis an me ludit amabilis insania?*

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [RBW] Anaerobic Power, Aerobic Effort

[Deacon Patrick]

Does your geared bike have a matching gear to a fixed? If so, the flywheel 
effect should be notacible, though there are multiple levels of getting more 
and more scientific to compare the two efforts. But if you ride them both on 
the same day, two days in a row, alternating which one is first, then compare 
times and percieved effort level, the result would be interesting.

My own macro observations are that my average speed is nearly identicle to 
freewheel, but my climbing speed is increased while my descent speed has 
decreased. Sincle climbing speed increased immediately on switching to fixed 
gear, with a similar gear to my freewheel ss, that points to the flywheel 
effect. Like you though, the physics of it baffle me, but I don’t really care. 
The difference it makes for my brain when riding is enormous. Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [RBW] Anaerobic Power, Aerobic Effort

[Patrick Moore]

You develop both the physical and psychological ability to stand and torque
up long hills at low rpm; it took me a few years to get comfortabel with
this.

Much of it is simply resetting your mind; you have to hold back and pace
yourself, but I have surprised myself how relatively easy it is to climb 5
or more mile-long hills (well, 1 hill; Tramway) in a 70" gear and even a
76" gear if you just get used to standing for a few miles at a time.

Headwinds are another thing that requires re-setting your mental
calculator; you can't shift down and keep cadence; you have to slow way
down and just be patient. That took me even longer.

FWIW, no change of diet required in my case; I stuck to my dietary
principle of plenty of starch and fat (beer and potato chips). Just
kidding, I don't care for potato chips. But my metabolism is such that I
can go for a 30 mile ride at 2 pm after nothing but 2 pints of sweet milky
tea from 7 am, and perhaps a bit of bread and butter, and do well enough,
though I do need to eat quickly when I get back.

I wonder if there is really a flywheel effect. On one hand, I tend to pedal
squares for a half mile or so when going back to a freewheel bike OTOH, I
don't feel the wheel pulling the bottom run of chain. Perhaps it's another
matter of learning or habituation: after having your feet jerked a few
times when you try to coast, you learn to, without thinking about it, keep
your cadence ahead of the rear wheel. I rather think that this is it.

Patrick Moore

On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Deacon Patrick  wrote:

> In which we explore how one gear is sustainable for long climbs and rides
> even on fairly steep grades of 8-12%.
> https://thegrid.ai/withabandon/anaerobic-power-aerobic-effort
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>
> www.CredoFamily.org
> www.MindYourHeadCoop.org
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>



-- 
Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
Other professional writing services.
http://www.resumespecialties.com/
www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, New Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique
**
**
*Auditis an me ludit amabilis insania?*

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[RBW] Anaerobic Power, Aerobic Effort

[Deacon Patrick]

In which we explore how one gear is sustainable for long climbs and rides even 
on fairly steep grades of 8-12%.
https://thegrid.ai/withabandon/anaerobic-power-aerobic-effort

With abandon,
Patrick

www.CredoFamily.org
www.MindYourHeadCoop.org

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.