Re: [RBW] Re: Atlantis Old vs New?

[R Shannon]

Garth, that's exciting! Enjoy the anticipation and the process; always
another detail to consider isn't there? Thanks so much for the update.

Best,
Rich in ATL

On Sat, May 6, 2023 at 4:43 PM Garth  wrote:

> To add another layer to the Atlantis history, does anyone else recall the
> very first run of them having longer top tubes ? Not prototypes, they were
> the original run. I recall the number 62cm for a top tube for the (I
> believe) 64cm frame size, as I was considering buying one in particular
> because it had the extra long TT.  I opted for a local Ohio custom
> framebuilder instead which I'm still immensely pleased with ! They were
> changed after that to what the charts listed say, but I know I read it
> somewhere from them, and being surprised by the change, and glad I got my
> custom instead.
>
>
> For Rich in ATL, I'm still waiting  for my new custom from Jack @ Franklin
> frames. That's okay though, as I have a running email dialogue I send him
> periodically with any changes or detail I didn't think of. So the blueprint
> in still very fluid since it isn't ! Basically just like my Bradley model
> but with a slightly longer front-center that gives some additional foot
> room for optional fenders if ever that comes to be. Not a fan of having my
> feet anywhere even remotely close to the front tire/fender !
>
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[RBW] Re: Atlantis Old vs New?

[Garth]

To add another layer to the Atlantis history, does anyone else recall the 
very first run of them having longer top tubes ? Not prototypes, they were 
the original run. I recall the number 62cm for a top tube for the (I 
believe) 64cm frame size, as I was considering buying one in particular 
because it had the extra long TT.  I opted for a local Ohio custom 
framebuilder instead which I'm still immensely pleased with ! They were 
changed after that to what the charts listed say, but I know I read it 
somewhere from them, and being surprised by the change, and glad I got my 
custom instead. 


For Rich in ATL, I'm still waiting  for my new custom from Jack @ Franklin 
frames. That's okay though, as I have a running email dialogue I send him 
periodically with any changes or detail I didn't think of. So the blueprint 
in still very fluid since it isn't ! Basically just like my Bradley model 
but with a slightly longer front-center that gives some additional foot 
room for optional fenders if ever that comes to be. Not a fan of having my 
feet anywhere even remotely close to the front tire/fender ! 

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[RBW] Re: Atlantis Old vs New?

[Greg J]

Most of this is coming from (pretty foggy) memory:  I believe there are 
Wford built Atlantises from a period when Riv had issues sourcing Toyo 
frames.  At least at the time, WF was using its own proprietary dropouts- 
the svelte ones with a curve on the insider triangle, compared to the more 
generic ones that Toyo used at that time, so that's one "tell."  (But 
later, Riv must have licensed or bought similar dropouts and stamped them 
Rivendell, so visually this may not be helpful.)  And all WF frames have 
WF's running serial numbers, so that's a sure way to tell.  

Greg

On Friday, May 5, 2023 at 8:32:31 AM UTC-7 iamkeith wrote:

> Here's another one showing the curve of the Toyo chainstays well.  It has 
> the same round lugs, which are like the blue and later Rambouillets.  That 
> would make sense, as these were the first two production frames and 
> contemporaries, both made at Toyo.  
>
> http://www.cyclofiend.com/cc/2006/cc161-garyrogers0906.html
>
> So maybe the "small" pointed lugs, which also appeared on the orange 
> Rambouillets, indicate the oldest Atlanti?  Like this:
>
> http://www.cyclofiend.com/cc/2010/cc763-jayscheiner0410.html
>
> Likewise, maybe the "big" pointy lugs are slightly  later.  They would 
> have been shared with the Saluki, which came slightly later than the Ram 
> and Atlantis.  Like this:
>
> http://www.cyclofiend.com/cc/2008/cc446-willcarey0208.html
>
> Obviously  lots of good images on the Cyclofiend site, for analyzing 
> this.  I think contributions/updates sort of tapered off around the same 
> time as the switch to Taiwanese production, right Jim?:
>
> http://www.cyclofiend.com/rbw/atlantis/index.html
>
>
> On Friday, May 5, 2023 at 8:25:32 AM UTC-6 iamkeith wrote:
>
>> One of the difficulties in identifying builder/age is that there were 
>> running changes right from the beginning. 
>>
>>  I think you can pretty safely identify the Toyo frames by the shape of 
>> the chainstays.  They had a graceful S-shape, with a curve behind the 
>> bottom bracket for tire clearance; then a straighter section  more-or-less 
>> parallel, for foot/crank clearance;  then curving out again before meeting 
>> the rear dropout at 135mm width.   Slightly newer frames had more 
>> common-shaped j-shaped stays that angled straight to the dropout after the 
>> first bend.  I'm not sure what builders did what though, or if later Toyo 
>> frames changed.
>>
>> The very earliest Atlanti would have had an RC-1 crown, with the 
>> triangular window.
>>
>> The lugs are more of a crapshoot.  Here's one that has the 
>> above-described chainstays and fork crown, but has rounded lugs instead of 
>> one of the two pointy styles I'd always thought were used from the earliest:
>>
>> http://www.cyclofiend.com/cc/2007/cc412-clivestandley1207.html
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, May 4, 2023 at 12:47:46 PM UTC-6 MisterMo wrote:
>>
>>> Was there ever a Waterford Atlantis?  How can one tell the difference 
>>> between a Toyo Atlantis and any others?  ie, is the 'pointy' lugged 
>>> Atlantis Toyo built?  
>>>
>>> On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 4:22:39 PM UTC-4 Mackenzy Albright wrote:
>>>
 I don't have an atlantis - but for a long time rode a crust romancuer, 
 which was somewhat based off the old atlantis's. I thought it was the bees 
 knees for a long time, but never felt right *for me* especially while 
 trying to use upright bars. It felt amazing with drops however. Due to 
 neck 
 injuries and unable to set the bike up in it's best form decided to trade 
 my Romanceur for a Clementine. It is a day and night difference of ride 
 with boscos and long top tube and wheelbase. 

 My summarization would be: 

 For drop bar setup - an older atlantis would be nice. There are a more 
 similar bikes available like the older atlantis frames. AKA large tire 
 clearance touring bikes. Bassi Le Montreal, Crust Romancuer, etc. 

 For upright bars - the long wheelbase and top tube rivs truly shine in 
 their comfort, performance, and handling. I don't think there are a lot of 
 bikes out there outside of rivendell with similar wheelbase and handling 
 characteristics. I get a bit annoyed with the constant rebuttal that 
 "they're just over priced 80's mountain bikes" - but they took everything 
 good about 80s mountain bikes and improved it. Longer wheelbases and top 
 tubes. Better steering geometry. Higher head tubes. More clearance for 
 larger tires. Lots of braze on options for racks and bags. etc. 

 On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 8:32:06 AM UTC-7 Ken Yokanovich wrote:

> I have a 61cm Toyo-built Atlantis. I had not ridden the bike for about 
> 3 years due to some unexpected life change circumstances and then a 
> repaint/rebuild. I also have a latest-generation 57cm Appaloosa that I 
> have 
> owned and ridden during those 3 years for recreation, errands, and 
> commuting. The current 

[RBW] Re: Atlantis Old vs New?

[iamkeith]

Here's another one showing the curve of the Toyo chainstays well.  It has 
the same round lugs, which are like the blue and later Rambouillets.  That 
would make sense, as these were the first two production frames and 
contemporaries, both made at Toyo.  

http://www.cyclofiend.com/cc/2006/cc161-garyrogers0906.html

So maybe the "small" pointed lugs, which also appeared on the orange 
Rambouillets, indicate the oldest Atlanti?  Like this:

http://www.cyclofiend.com/cc/2010/cc763-jayscheiner0410.html

Likewise, maybe the "big" pointy lugs are slightly  later.  They would have 
been shared with the Saluki, which came slightly later than the Ram and 
Atlantis.  Like this:

http://www.cyclofiend.com/cc/2008/cc446-willcarey0208.html

Obviously  lots of good images on the Cyclofiend site, for analyzing this.  
I think contributions/updates sort of tapered off around the same time as 
the switch to Taiwanese production, right Jim?:

http://www.cyclofiend.com/rbw/atlantis/index.html


On Friday, May 5, 2023 at 8:25:32 AM UTC-6 iamkeith wrote:

> One of the difficulties in identifying builder/age is that there were 
> running changes right from the beginning. 
>
>  I think you can pretty safely identify the Toyo frames by the shape of 
> the chainstays.  They had a graceful S-shape, with a curve behind the 
> bottom bracket for tire clearance; then a straighter section  more-or-less 
> parallel, for foot/crank clearance;  then curving out again before meeting 
> the rear dropout at 135mm width.   Slightly newer frames had more 
> common-shaped j-shaped stays that angled straight to the dropout after the 
> first bend.  I'm not sure what builders did what though, or if later Toyo 
> frames changed.
>
> The very earliest Atlanti would have had an RC-1 crown, with the 
> triangular window.
>
> The lugs are more of a crapshoot.  Here's one that has the above-described 
> chainstays and fork crown, but has rounded lugs instead of one of the two 
> pointy styles I'd always thought were used from the earliest:
>
> http://www.cyclofiend.com/cc/2007/cc412-clivestandley1207.html
>
>
> On Thursday, May 4, 2023 at 12:47:46 PM UTC-6 MisterMo wrote:
>
>> Was there ever a Waterford Atlantis?  How can one tell the difference 
>> between a Toyo Atlantis and any others?  ie, is the 'pointy' lugged 
>> Atlantis Toyo built?  
>>
>> On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 4:22:39 PM UTC-4 Mackenzy Albright wrote:
>>
>>> I don't have an atlantis - but for a long time rode a crust romancuer, 
>>> which was somewhat based off the old atlantis's. I thought it was the bees 
>>> knees for a long time, but never felt right *for me* especially while 
>>> trying to use upright bars. It felt amazing with drops however. Due to neck 
>>> injuries and unable to set the bike up in it's best form decided to trade 
>>> my Romanceur for a Clementine. It is a day and night difference of ride 
>>> with boscos and long top tube and wheelbase. 
>>>
>>> My summarization would be: 
>>>
>>> For drop bar setup - an older atlantis would be nice. There are a more 
>>> similar bikes available like the older atlantis frames. AKA large tire 
>>> clearance touring bikes. Bassi Le Montreal, Crust Romancuer, etc. 
>>>
>>> For upright bars - the long wheelbase and top tube rivs truly shine in 
>>> their comfort, performance, and handling. I don't think there are a lot of 
>>> bikes out there outside of rivendell with similar wheelbase and handling 
>>> characteristics. I get a bit annoyed with the constant rebuttal that 
>>> "they're just over priced 80's mountain bikes" - but they took everything 
>>> good about 80s mountain bikes and improved it. Longer wheelbases and top 
>>> tubes. Better steering geometry. Higher head tubes. More clearance for 
>>> larger tires. Lots of braze on options for racks and bags. etc. 
>>>
>>> On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 8:32:06 AM UTC-7 Ken Yokanovich wrote:
>>>
 I have a 61cm Toyo-built Atlantis. I had not ridden the bike for about 
 3 years due to some unexpected life change circumstances and then a 
 repaint/rebuild. I also have a latest-generation 57cm Appaloosa that I 
 have 
 owned and ridden during those 3 years for recreation, errands, and 
 commuting. The current generation MIT Atlantis is very similar to 
 Appaloosa.   I recently got the Atlantis back from a repaint, and it has 
 been fun to compare the two bikes. 

 Atlantis
 I have ridden this bike for recreation, commuting, and have done 
 several loaded tours on it. I like it a lot, I *don't LOVE* it. At 
 least not for recreational riding. I tend to grab something else when it's 
 time to go play.  (I also own Rivendell: Custom - All Rounder, Custom - 
 Road, Frank Jones, HubbuHubbuH, Platypus) Tire widths have ranged 35-48mm. 
 It seems to handle a lot better with the wider tires, particularly when 
 descending hills on gravel. It *IS *my go to bike for loaded touring 
 and when I travel. (This is a 

[RBW] Re: Atlantis Old vs New?

[iamkeith]

One of the difficulties in identifying builder/age is that there were 
running changes right from the beginning. 

 I think you can pretty safely identify the Toyo frames by the shape of the 
chainstays.  They had a graceful S-shape, with a curve behind the bottom 
bracket for tire clearance; then a straighter section  more-or-less 
parallel, for foot/crank clearance;  then curving out again before meeting 
the rear dropout at 135mm width.   Slightly newer frames had more 
common-shaped j-shaped stays that angled straight to the dropout after the 
first bend.  I'm not sure what builders did what though, or if later Toyo 
frames changed.

The very earliest Atlanti would have had an RC-1 crown, with the triangular 
window.

The lugs are more of a crapshoot.  Here's one that has the above-described 
chainstays and fork crown, but has rounded lugs instead of one of the two 
pointy styles I'd always thought were used from the earliest:

http://www.cyclofiend.com/cc/2007/cc412-clivestandley1207.html


On Thursday, May 4, 2023 at 12:47:46 PM UTC-6 MisterMo wrote:

> Was there ever a Waterford Atlantis?  How can one tell the difference 
> between a Toyo Atlantis and any others?  ie, is the 'pointy' lugged 
> Atlantis Toyo built?  
>
> On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 4:22:39 PM UTC-4 Mackenzy Albright wrote:
>
>> I don't have an atlantis - but for a long time rode a crust romancuer, 
>> which was somewhat based off the old atlantis's. I thought it was the bees 
>> knees for a long time, but never felt right *for me* especially while 
>> trying to use upright bars. It felt amazing with drops however. Due to neck 
>> injuries and unable to set the bike up in it's best form decided to trade 
>> my Romanceur for a Clementine. It is a day and night difference of ride 
>> with boscos and long top tube and wheelbase. 
>>
>> My summarization would be: 
>>
>> For drop bar setup - an older atlantis would be nice. There are a more 
>> similar bikes available like the older atlantis frames. AKA large tire 
>> clearance touring bikes. Bassi Le Montreal, Crust Romancuer, etc. 
>>
>> For upright bars - the long wheelbase and top tube rivs truly shine in 
>> their comfort, performance, and handling. I don't think there are a lot of 
>> bikes out there outside of rivendell with similar wheelbase and handling 
>> characteristics. I get a bit annoyed with the constant rebuttal that 
>> "they're just over priced 80's mountain bikes" - but they took everything 
>> good about 80s mountain bikes and improved it. Longer wheelbases and top 
>> tubes. Better steering geometry. Higher head tubes. More clearance for 
>> larger tires. Lots of braze on options for racks and bags. etc. 
>>
>> On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 8:32:06 AM UTC-7 Ken Yokanovich wrote:
>>
>>> I have a 61cm Toyo-built Atlantis. I had not ridden the bike for about 3 
>>> years due to some unexpected life change circumstances and then a 
>>> repaint/rebuild. I also have a latest-generation 57cm Appaloosa that I have 
>>> owned and ridden during those 3 years for recreation, errands, and 
>>> commuting. The current generation MIT Atlantis is very similar to 
>>> Appaloosa.   I recently got the Atlantis back from a repaint, and it has 
>>> been fun to compare the two bikes. 
>>>
>>> Atlantis
>>> I have ridden this bike for recreation, commuting, and have done several 
>>> loaded tours on it. I like it a lot, I *don't LOVE* it. At least not 
>>> for recreational riding. I tend to grab something else when it's time to go 
>>> play.  (I also own Rivendell: Custom - All Rounder, Custom - Road, Frank 
>>> Jones, HubbuHubbuH, Platypus) Tire widths have ranged 35-48mm. It seems to 
>>> handle a lot better with the wider tires, particularly when descending 
>>> hills on gravel. It *IS *my go to bike for loaded touring and when I 
>>> travel. (This is a weird combination of opposing purposes that I am 
>>> constantly struggling with.) I prefer the position of drop bars and 
>>> appreciate multiple hand options for multi-day rides and long hours in the 
>>> saddle. The more "aerodynamic" position is something MUCH appreciated for 
>>> those eventual day-long headwinds. The bike does have toe overlap with the 
>>> fenders, but this has never been a big deal for me. For the most part, I 
>>> would have a hard time telling you which of my bikes did/didn't.
>>> [image: Atlantis Full.png]
>>>
>>> Appaloosa
>>> I bought the Appaloosa as the keep-handy grab-n-go bike. My confidence 
>>> in upright handlebars was bolstered by the experience of riding and touring 
>>> on the HubbuHubbuH. I like the Bosco bars way more than I expected I ever 
>>> would.  I keep the Appaloosa parked in front of the car making it an easy 
>>> choice for errands and commuting. Unexpectedly, I have found myself riding 
>>> the Appaloosa for recreation too.  The bike rides much "lighter" and 
>>> "faster" than I expected it would.  If I hadn't just got the Atlantis ready 
>>> for summer touring, I would like to try 

Re: [RBW] Re: Atlantis Old vs New?

[Doug Van Cleve]

The OG Atlantis was a production frameset made in Japan by Toyo, based on
the Allrounder, which was first made by Waterford then some other builders
RBW used for a bit.  Not sure about lug variations in the Toyo Atlantis,
but other than color and name it is a completely different bike than that
current MIT version.  The Toyos are relatively conventional, not super long
like the current ones.  I'm pretty sure the Toyos never had any kind of
double "top tube" like many of the larger MITs did/do...

Doug

On Thu, May 4, 2023 at 11:51 AM Cyclofiend Jim  wrote:

> The "2" was on the first Atlantii, to acknowledge that the name had been
> used in the past by Bridgestone
>
> I have the old Atlantis page yonder -
> http://www.cyclofiend.com/rbw/atlantis/index.html
>
> There are a few scans of the pertinent flyers.
>
> J
> On Thursday, May 4, 2023 at 11:47:45 AM UTC-7 MisterMo wrote:
>
>> Is there a place to go to get Atlantis history and updates over the
>> years? ie, was there a Waterford Atlantis? Atlantis to Atlantis2 was? Did
>> Toyo produce Atlanti with both the roundy lugs and the pointy lugs?  How
>> does one tell the difference between Toyo, MIT and Wford? etc, etc. Thanks
>> for pointing me to a place with this info (or providing it here).
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Atlantis Old vs New?

[Cyclofiend Jim]

The "2" was on the first Atlantii, to acknowledge that the name had been 
used in the past by Bridgestone 

I have the old Atlantis page yonder - 
http://www.cyclofiend.com/rbw/atlantis/index.html

There are a few scans of the pertinent flyers.

J
On Thursday, May 4, 2023 at 11:47:45 AM UTC-7 MisterMo wrote:

> Is there a place to go to get Atlantis history and updates over the years? 
> ie, was there a Waterford Atlantis? Atlantis to Atlantis2 was? Did Toyo 
> produce Atlanti with both the roundy lugs and the pointy lugs?  How does 
> one tell the difference between Toyo, MIT and Wford? etc, etc. Thanks for 
> pointing me to a place with this info (or providing it here).  
>
> On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 4:22:39 PM UTC-4 Mackenzy Albright wrote:
>
>> I don't have an atlantis - but for a long time rode a crust romancuer, 
>> which was somewhat based off the old atlantis's. I thought it was the bees 
>> knees for a long time, but never felt right *for me* especially while 
>> trying to use upright bars. It felt amazing with drops however. Due to neck 
>> injuries and unable to set the bike up in it's best form decided to trade 
>> my Romanceur for a Clementine. It is a day and night difference of ride 
>> with boscos and long top tube and wheelbase. 
>>
>> My summarization would be: 
>>
>> For drop bar setup - an older atlantis would be nice. There are a more 
>> similar bikes available like the older atlantis frames. AKA large tire 
>> clearance touring bikes. Bassi Le Montreal, Crust Romancuer, etc. 
>>
>> For upright bars - the long wheelbase and top tube rivs truly shine in 
>> their comfort, performance, and handling. I don't think there are a lot of 
>> bikes out there outside of rivendell with similar wheelbase and handling 
>> characteristics. I get a bit annoyed with the constant rebuttal that 
>> "they're just over priced 80's mountain bikes" - but they took everything 
>> good about 80s mountain bikes and improved it. Longer wheelbases and top 
>> tubes. Better steering geometry. Higher head tubes. More clearance for 
>> larger tires. Lots of braze on options for racks and bags. etc. 
>>
>> On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 8:32:06 AM UTC-7 Ken Yokanovich wrote:
>>
>>> I have a 61cm Toyo-built Atlantis. I had not ridden the bike for about 3 
>>> years due to some unexpected life change circumstances and then a 
>>> repaint/rebuild. I also have a latest-generation 57cm Appaloosa that I have 
>>> owned and ridden during those 3 years for recreation, errands, and 
>>> commuting. The current generation MIT Atlantis is very similar to 
>>> Appaloosa.   I recently got the Atlantis back from a repaint, and it has 
>>> been fun to compare the two bikes. 
>>>
>>> Atlantis
>>> I have ridden this bike for recreation, commuting, and have done several 
>>> loaded tours on it. I like it a lot, I *don't LOVE* it. At least not 
>>> for recreational riding. I tend to grab something else when it's time to go 
>>> play.  (I also own Rivendell: Custom - All Rounder, Custom - Road, Frank 
>>> Jones, HubbuHubbuH, Platypus) Tire widths have ranged 35-48mm. It seems to 
>>> handle a lot better with the wider tires, particularly when descending 
>>> hills on gravel. It *IS *my go to bike for loaded touring and when I 
>>> travel. (This is a weird combination of opposing purposes that I am 
>>> constantly struggling with.) I prefer the position of drop bars and 
>>> appreciate multiple hand options for multi-day rides and long hours in the 
>>> saddle. The more "aerodynamic" position is something MUCH appreciated for 
>>> those eventual day-long headwinds. The bike does have toe overlap with the 
>>> fenders, but this has never been a big deal for me. For the most part, I 
>>> would have a hard time telling you which of my bikes did/didn't.
>>> [image: Atlantis Full.png]
>>>
>>> Appaloosa
>>> I bought the Appaloosa as the keep-handy grab-n-go bike. My confidence 
>>> in upright handlebars was bolstered by the experience of riding and touring 
>>> on the HubbuHubbuH. I like the Bosco bars way more than I expected I ever 
>>> would.  I keep the Appaloosa parked in front of the car making it an easy 
>>> choice for errands and commuting. Unexpectedly, I have found myself riding 
>>> the Appaloosa for recreation too.  The bike rides much "lighter" and 
>>> "faster" than I expected it would.  If I hadn't just got the Atlantis ready 
>>> for summer touring, I would like to try taking the Appaloosa on a 
>>> fully-loaded tour. I think the more casual ride mood that it inspires might 
>>> encourage me to cut back on ambitious daily mileage goals when touring.
>>> [image: Appaloosa.png]
>>>
>>> Summary 
>>> Both bikes provide a lot of enjoyment. If forced to choose between the 
>>> Atlantis or Appaloosa, I would select the Appaloosa. 
>>> What's next or what would I do differently?  I have thought about buying 
>>> another Appaloosa from the next batch and building it up for loaded touring 
>>> so I could reconfigure the 

[RBW] Re: Atlantis Old vs New?

[MisterMo]

Is there a place to go to get Atlantis history and updates over the years? 
ie, was there a Waterford Atlantis? Atlantis to Atlantis2 was? Did Toyo 
produce Atlanti with both the roundy lugs and the pointy lugs?  How does 
one tell the difference between Toyo, MIT and Wford? etc, etc. Thanks for 
pointing me to a place with this info (or providing it here).  

On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 4:22:39 PM UTC-4 Mackenzy Albright wrote:

> I don't have an atlantis - but for a long time rode a crust romancuer, 
> which was somewhat based off the old atlantis's. I thought it was the bees 
> knees for a long time, but never felt right *for me* especially while 
> trying to use upright bars. It felt amazing with drops however. Due to neck 
> injuries and unable to set the bike up in it's best form decided to trade 
> my Romanceur for a Clementine. It is a day and night difference of ride 
> with boscos and long top tube and wheelbase. 
>
> My summarization would be: 
>
> For drop bar setup - an older atlantis would be nice. There are a more 
> similar bikes available like the older atlantis frames. AKA large tire 
> clearance touring bikes. Bassi Le Montreal, Crust Romancuer, etc. 
>
> For upright bars - the long wheelbase and top tube rivs truly shine in 
> their comfort, performance, and handling. I don't think there are a lot of 
> bikes out there outside of rivendell with similar wheelbase and handling 
> characteristics. I get a bit annoyed with the constant rebuttal that 
> "they're just over priced 80's mountain bikes" - but they took everything 
> good about 80s mountain bikes and improved it. Longer wheelbases and top 
> tubes. Better steering geometry. Higher head tubes. More clearance for 
> larger tires. Lots of braze on options for racks and bags. etc. 
>
> On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 8:32:06 AM UTC-7 Ken Yokanovich wrote:
>
>> I have a 61cm Toyo-built Atlantis. I had not ridden the bike for about 3 
>> years due to some unexpected life change circumstances and then a 
>> repaint/rebuild. I also have a latest-generation 57cm Appaloosa that I have 
>> owned and ridden during those 3 years for recreation, errands, and 
>> commuting. The current generation MIT Atlantis is very similar to 
>> Appaloosa.   I recently got the Atlantis back from a repaint, and it has 
>> been fun to compare the two bikes. 
>>
>> Atlantis
>> I have ridden this bike for recreation, commuting, and have done several 
>> loaded tours on it. I like it a lot, I *don't LOVE* it. At least not for 
>> recreational riding. I tend to grab something else when it's time to go 
>> play.  (I also own Rivendell: Custom - All Rounder, Custom - Road, Frank 
>> Jones, HubbuHubbuH, Platypus) Tire widths have ranged 35-48mm. It seems to 
>> handle a lot better with the wider tires, particularly when descending 
>> hills on gravel. It *IS *my go to bike for loaded touring and when I 
>> travel. (This is a weird combination of opposing purposes that I am 
>> constantly struggling with.) I prefer the position of drop bars and 
>> appreciate multiple hand options for multi-day rides and long hours in the 
>> saddle. The more "aerodynamic" position is something MUCH appreciated for 
>> those eventual day-long headwinds. The bike does have toe overlap with the 
>> fenders, but this has never been a big deal for me. For the most part, I 
>> would have a hard time telling you which of my bikes did/didn't.
>> [image: Atlantis Full.png]
>>
>> Appaloosa
>> I bought the Appaloosa as the keep-handy grab-n-go bike. My confidence in 
>> upright handlebars was bolstered by the experience of riding and touring on 
>> the HubbuHubbuH. I like the Bosco bars way more than I expected I ever 
>> would.  I keep the Appaloosa parked in front of the car making it an easy 
>> choice for errands and commuting. Unexpectedly, I have found myself riding 
>> the Appaloosa for recreation too.  The bike rides much "lighter" and 
>> "faster" than I expected it would.  If I hadn't just got the Atlantis ready 
>> for summer touring, I would like to try taking the Appaloosa on a 
>> fully-loaded tour. I think the more casual ride mood that it inspires might 
>> encourage me to cut back on ambitious daily mileage goals when touring.
>> [image: Appaloosa.png]
>>
>> Summary 
>> Both bikes provide a lot of enjoyment. If forced to choose between the 
>> Atlantis or Appaloosa, I would select the Appaloosa. 
>> What's next or what would I do differently?  I have thought about buying 
>> another Appaloosa from the next batch and building it up for loaded touring 
>> so I could reconfigure the Atlantis for easier travel.
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Atlantis Old vs New?

[MisterMo]

Was there ever a Waterford Atlantis?  How can one tell the difference 
between a Toyo Atlantis and any others?  ie, is the 'pointy' lugged 
Atlantis Toyo built?  

On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 4:22:39 PM UTC-4 Mackenzy Albright wrote:

> I don't have an atlantis - but for a long time rode a crust romancuer, 
> which was somewhat based off the old atlantis's. I thought it was the bees 
> knees for a long time, but never felt right *for me* especially while 
> trying to use upright bars. It felt amazing with drops however. Due to neck 
> injuries and unable to set the bike up in it's best form decided to trade 
> my Romanceur for a Clementine. It is a day and night difference of ride 
> with boscos and long top tube and wheelbase. 
>
> My summarization would be: 
>
> For drop bar setup - an older atlantis would be nice. There are a more 
> similar bikes available like the older atlantis frames. AKA large tire 
> clearance touring bikes. Bassi Le Montreal, Crust Romancuer, etc. 
>
> For upright bars - the long wheelbase and top tube rivs truly shine in 
> their comfort, performance, and handling. I don't think there are a lot of 
> bikes out there outside of rivendell with similar wheelbase and handling 
> characteristics. I get a bit annoyed with the constant rebuttal that 
> "they're just over priced 80's mountain bikes" - but they took everything 
> good about 80s mountain bikes and improved it. Longer wheelbases and top 
> tubes. Better steering geometry. Higher head tubes. More clearance for 
> larger tires. Lots of braze on options for racks and bags. etc. 
>
> On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 8:32:06 AM UTC-7 Ken Yokanovich wrote:
>
>> I have a 61cm Toyo-built Atlantis. I had not ridden the bike for about 3 
>> years due to some unexpected life change circumstances and then a 
>> repaint/rebuild. I also have a latest-generation 57cm Appaloosa that I have 
>> owned and ridden during those 3 years for recreation, errands, and 
>> commuting. The current generation MIT Atlantis is very similar to 
>> Appaloosa.   I recently got the Atlantis back from a repaint, and it has 
>> been fun to compare the two bikes. 
>>
>> Atlantis
>> I have ridden this bike for recreation, commuting, and have done several 
>> loaded tours on it. I like it a lot, I *don't LOVE* it. At least not for 
>> recreational riding. I tend to grab something else when it's time to go 
>> play.  (I also own Rivendell: Custom - All Rounder, Custom - Road, Frank 
>> Jones, HubbuHubbuH, Platypus) Tire widths have ranged 35-48mm. It seems to 
>> handle a lot better with the wider tires, particularly when descending 
>> hills on gravel. It *IS *my go to bike for loaded touring and when I 
>> travel. (This is a weird combination of opposing purposes that I am 
>> constantly struggling with.) I prefer the position of drop bars and 
>> appreciate multiple hand options for multi-day rides and long hours in the 
>> saddle. The more "aerodynamic" position is something MUCH appreciated for 
>> those eventual day-long headwinds. The bike does have toe overlap with the 
>> fenders, but this has never been a big deal for me. For the most part, I 
>> would have a hard time telling you which of my bikes did/didn't.
>> [image: Atlantis Full.png]
>>
>> Appaloosa
>> I bought the Appaloosa as the keep-handy grab-n-go bike. My confidence in 
>> upright handlebars was bolstered by the experience of riding and touring on 
>> the HubbuHubbuH. I like the Bosco bars way more than I expected I ever 
>> would.  I keep the Appaloosa parked in front of the car making it an easy 
>> choice for errands and commuting. Unexpectedly, I have found myself riding 
>> the Appaloosa for recreation too.  The bike rides much "lighter" and 
>> "faster" than I expected it would.  If I hadn't just got the Atlantis ready 
>> for summer touring, I would like to try taking the Appaloosa on a 
>> fully-loaded tour. I think the more casual ride mood that it inspires might 
>> encourage me to cut back on ambitious daily mileage goals when touring.
>> [image: Appaloosa.png]
>>
>> Summary 
>> Both bikes provide a lot of enjoyment. If forced to choose between the 
>> Atlantis or Appaloosa, I would select the Appaloosa. 
>> What's next or what would I do differently?  I have thought about buying 
>> another Appaloosa from the next batch and building it up for loaded touring 
>> so I could reconfigure the Atlantis for easier travel.
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Atlantis Old vs New?

[Mackenzy Albright]

I don't have an atlantis - but for a long time rode a crust romancuer, 
which was somewhat based off the old atlantis's. I thought it was the bees 
knees for a long time, but never felt right *for me* especially while 
trying to use upright bars. It felt amazing with drops however. Due to neck 
injuries and unable to set the bike up in it's best form decided to trade 
my Romanceur for a Clementine. It is a day and night difference of ride 
with boscos and long top tube and wheelbase. 

My summarization would be: 

For drop bar setup - an older atlantis would be nice. There are a more 
similar bikes available like the older atlantis frames. AKA large tire 
clearance touring bikes. Bassi Le Montreal, Crust Romancuer, etc. 

For upright bars - the long wheelbase and top tube rivs truly shine in 
their comfort, performance, and handling. I don't think there are a lot of 
bikes out there outside of rivendell with similar wheelbase and handling 
characteristics. I get a bit annoyed with the constant rebuttal that 
"they're just over priced 80's mountain bikes" - but they took everything 
good about 80s mountain bikes and improved it. Longer wheelbases and top 
tubes. Better steering geometry. Higher head tubes. More clearance for 
larger tires. Lots of braze on options for racks and bags. etc. 

On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 8:32:06 AM UTC-7 Ken Yokanovich wrote:

> I have a 61cm Toyo-built Atlantis. I had not ridden the bike for about 3 
> years due to some unexpected life change circumstances and then a 
> repaint/rebuild. I also have a latest-generation 57cm Appaloosa that I have 
> owned and ridden during those 3 years for recreation, errands, and 
> commuting. The current generation MIT Atlantis is very similar to 
> Appaloosa.   I recently got the Atlantis back from a repaint, and it has 
> been fun to compare the two bikes. 
>
> Atlantis
> I have ridden this bike for recreation, commuting, and have done several 
> loaded tours on it. I like it a lot, I *don't LOVE* it. At least not for 
> recreational riding. I tend to grab something else when it's time to go 
> play.  (I also own Rivendell: Custom - All Rounder, Custom - Road, Frank 
> Jones, HubbuHubbuH, Platypus) Tire widths have ranged 35-48mm. It seems to 
> handle a lot better with the wider tires, particularly when descending 
> hills on gravel. It *IS *my go to bike for loaded touring and when I 
> travel. (This is a weird combination of opposing purposes that I am 
> constantly struggling with.) I prefer the position of drop bars and 
> appreciate multiple hand options for multi-day rides and long hours in the 
> saddle. The more "aerodynamic" position is something MUCH appreciated for 
> those eventual day-long headwinds. The bike does have toe overlap with the 
> fenders, but this has never been a big deal for me. For the most part, I 
> would have a hard time telling you which of my bikes did/didn't.
> [image: Atlantis Full.png]
>
> Appaloosa
> I bought the Appaloosa as the keep-handy grab-n-go bike. My confidence in 
> upright handlebars was bolstered by the experience of riding and touring on 
> the HubbuHubbuH. I like the Bosco bars way more than I expected I ever 
> would.  I keep the Appaloosa parked in front of the car making it an easy 
> choice for errands and commuting. Unexpectedly, I have found myself riding 
> the Appaloosa for recreation too.  The bike rides much "lighter" and 
> "faster" than I expected it would.  If I hadn't just got the Atlantis ready 
> for summer touring, I would like to try taking the Appaloosa on a 
> fully-loaded tour. I think the more casual ride mood that it inspires might 
> encourage me to cut back on ambitious daily mileage goals when touring.
> [image: Appaloosa.png]
>
> Summary 
> Both bikes provide a lot of enjoyment. If forced to choose between the 
> Atlantis or Appaloosa, I would select the Appaloosa. 
> What's next or what would I do differently?  I have thought about buying 
> another Appaloosa from the next batch and building it up for loaded touring 
> so I could reconfigure the Atlantis for easier travel.
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Atlantis Old vs New?

[luckyturnip]

My 2004 53 cm (54?) Atlantis with 26” wheels features toe overlap and not much room out back with a “fist full of seatpost”, for big baggage. It’s pretty nimble off road snd very stable on. Set up with Albatross, love it. On Apr 27, 2023, at 06:57, 'peech1...@yahoo.com' via RBW Owners Bunch  wrote:I am down to 2 bikes: a 2010 Hillborne and an Atlantis MIT.  Both are set up for upright riding with albatross bars.  I love them both.  Hillborne has the "toe clap overlip" (clever huh?) that the MIT doesn't.  Both have their merits with the hill borne seeming to be a zippier ride.  MIT is a tad more comfortable with 650b 47 tires as opposed to 700c 35 tires on the Sammy.  If I had to choose one bike it would be the Atlantis.  Just more comfortable and versatile.  Rivendell bikes really have improved my life.On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 10:25:24 PM UTC-5 Stephen wrote:I've never ridden an atlantis, older or newer, But I do ride a '21 joe appaloosa(60) (the joe is very similar to MIT atlantis) and a rambouillet(62/63), so I feel I can comment a little on long vs. short chainstays. In addition to taking the joe out on road and gravel, i treat it as my mountain bike. I've ridden a fair bit of twisty singletrack in NC and have never really felt inhibited by the long chainstays. Anytime theres a turn I can't make, I honestly wouldn't be able to do it on a shorter bike either. Also, I recently did a little test ride with a new packing setup and I felt it really demonstrated the magic of the long stays... rear rack and panniers. Just honestly blown away by how roomy the bike is and how out of the way the luggage is with the long rear end, and how little it affected the good handling of the bike. I'm typically a front basket guy, but these bikes do ride really nicely with the weight in the back. On other bikes I've had issue with my heels hitting the bags.Now the Ram with the more traditional geometry is also a fantastic riding bike. I'm not sure how the geometry compares to older atlantis', but the rear end is considerably shorter than the joe and MIT atlantis'. I currently run 700x38 panaracers on it and use it for paved and dirt roads. Obviously not as stable as the Joe on gravel, but its really a road bike and it kicks butt on pavement. I'd say I like the shorter rear end for pure road riding. If it were sturdier I could imagine putting bags on it for a tour, but it wouldn't be as spacious as the setup on the Joe.As others have stated, the older and newer atlantis' are really quite different bikes, and in choosing between options you just need to analyze what features you want. The newer models can fit bigger tires, are roomier, more stable, but come at the cost of being humungo bikes. For me personally, I like the extra tire clearance and I like having at least one long chainstay bike. These days its a bit of a key rivendell feature. I feel lucky to have both options in the stable.Also if its possible, the best thing to help in deciding is getting to try each style out to see what suits you. Maybe there is someone living close enough to you with a long chainstay bike you can try, or an older atlantis. worth checking the riv map John created or asking the group.On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 9:42:21 PM UTC-4 homer...@gmail.com wrote:My Toyo does not have “fork mounts” for a rack. Would that be a factor for consideration in your decision?… I will say that I LOVE this bike, but the combination of Paul “Moto-lites” & no fork mounts makes finding support for a front bag kind of tough.Just a thoughtHHOn Saturday, March 4, 2023 at 8:37:18 PM UTC-8 Ed Fausto wrote:Hi,I share the thoughts of Tom.I also have both a 51 Toyo Atlantis and a 50 MIT Atlantis.Although, I have used by Toyo Atlantis during my 2016 TransAm and it performed well with a fully loaded gears.My only cons on my Toyo is the toe clip overlap which is annoying for me specially when grinding up slowly uphills.I am by default a slow rider so toe clip often happens more frequently than other riders.When I got my MIT, I feel the difference is it is more stable than my Toyo.And of course, no more toe clip overlap :-)I have not yet ridden my MIT on long tours.As mentioned by others, since my MIT Atlantis is very much longer than my Toyo, it could be a challenge finding boxes after a long tour.Regards,Ed FaustoManila, PhilippinesPS Even with the toe clip overlap on my Toyo Atlantis, I will still keep it due to sentimental reasons after my 2016 TransAmOn Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 10:57:12 AM UTC+8 Tom Horton wrote:Re my toyo atlantis and my mit  expect there s a bit of sentimentality/long familiarity involved with the toyoBefore i built the mit atlantis up for trail riding i had a drop bar on it and did a few five or six day tours  not heavily loaded (carrying maybe 25-30 pounds if stuff)  it rode great   Never felt i wouldn t have gone further on itBut there s something about that massive toyo 68 a frame nowhere near maxed by my own 6-5 frame   I do not however 

Re: [RBW] Re: Atlantis Old vs New?

['peech1...@yahoo.com' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I am down to 2 bikes: a 2010 Hillborne and an Atlantis MIT.  Both are set 
up for upright riding with albatross bars.  I love them both.  Hillborne 
has the "toe clap overlip" (clever huh?) that the MIT doesn't.  Both have 
their merits with the hill borne seeming to be a zippier ride.  MIT is a 
tad more comfortable with 650b 47 tires as opposed to 700c 35 tires on the 
Sammy.  If I had to choose one bike it would be the Atlantis.  Just more 
comfortable and versatile.  Rivendell bikes really have improved my life.

On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 10:25:24 PM UTC-5 Stephen wrote:

> I've never ridden an atlantis, older or newer, But I do ride a '21 joe 
> appaloosa(60) (the joe is very similar to MIT atlantis) and a 
> rambouillet(62/63), so I feel I can comment a little on long vs. short 
> chainstays. 
>
> In addition to taking the joe out on road and gravel, i treat it as my 
> mountain bike. I've ridden a fair bit of twisty singletrack in NC and have 
> never really felt inhibited by the long chainstays. Anytime theres a turn I 
> can't make, I honestly wouldn't be able to do it on a shorter bike either. 
>
> Also, I recently did a little test ride with a new packing setup and I 
> felt it really demonstrated the magic of the long stays... rear rack and 
> panniers. Just honestly blown away by how roomy the bike is and how out of 
> the way the luggage is with the long rear end, and how little it affected 
> the good handling of the bike. I'm typically a front basket guy, but these 
> bikes do ride really nicely with the weight in the back. On other bikes 
> I've had issue with my heels hitting the bags.
>
> Now the Ram with the more traditional geometry is also a fantastic riding 
> bike. I'm not sure how the geometry compares to older atlantis', but the 
> rear end is considerably shorter than the joe and MIT atlantis'. I 
> currently run 700x38 panaracers on it and use it for paved and dirt roads. 
> Obviously not as stable as the Joe on gravel, but its really a road bike 
> and it kicks butt on pavement. I'd say I like the shorter rear end for pure 
> road riding. If it were sturdier I could imagine putting bags on it for a 
> tour, but it wouldn't be as spacious as the setup on the Joe.
>
> As others have stated, the older and newer atlantis' are really quite 
> different bikes, and in choosing between options you just need to analyze 
> what features you want. The newer models can fit bigger tires, are roomier, 
> more stable, but come at the cost of being humungo bikes. For me 
> personally, I like the extra tire clearance and I like having at least one 
> long chainstay bike. These days its a bit of a key rivendell feature. I 
> feel lucky to have both options in the stable.
>
> Also if its possible, the best thing to help in deciding is getting to try 
> each style out to see what suits you. Maybe there is someone living close 
> enough to you with a long chainstay bike you can try, or an older atlantis. 
> worth checking the riv map John created or asking the group.
>
> [image: joe.jpg]
> [image: ram.jpg]
> On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 9:42:21 PM UTC-4 homer...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> [image: image.jpg]My Toyo does not have “fork mounts” for a rack. Would 
>> that be a factor for consideration in your decision?… I will say that I 
>> LOVE this bike, but the combination of Paul “Moto-lites” & no fork mounts 
>> makes finding support for a front bag kind of tough.
>> Just a thought
>> HH
>> On Saturday, March 4, 2023 at 8:37:18 PM UTC-8 Ed Fausto wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>> I share the thoughts of Tom.
>>> I also have both a 51 Toyo Atlantis and a 50 MIT Atlantis.
>>> Although, I have used by Toyo Atlantis during my 2016 TransAm and it 
>>> performed well with a fully loaded gears.
>>> My only cons on my Toyo is the toe clip overlap which is annoying for me 
>>> specially when grinding up slowly uphills.
>>> I am by default a slow rider so toe clip often happens more frequently 
>>> than other riders.
>>>
>>> When I got my MIT, I feel the difference is it is more stable than my 
>>> Toyo.
>>> And of course, no more toe clip overlap :-)
>>> I have not yet ridden my MIT on long tours.
>>>
>>> As mentioned by others, since my MIT Atlantis is very much longer than 
>>> my Toyo, it could be a challenge finding boxes after a long tour.
>>> Regards,
>>> Ed Fausto
>>> Manila, Philippines
>>>
>>> PS Even with the toe clip overlap on my Toyo Atlantis, I will still keep 
>>> it due to sentimental reasons after my 2016 TransAm
>>>
>>> On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 10:57:12 AM UTC+8 Tom Horton wrote:
>>>
 Re my toyo atlantis and my mit  expect there s a bit of 
 sentimentality/long familiarity involved with the toyo

 Before i built the mit atlantis up for trail riding i had a drop bar on 
 it and did a few five or six day tours  not heavily loaded (carrying maybe 
 25-30 pounds if stuff)  it rode great   Never felt i wouldn t have gone 
 further on it

 But there s something 

Re: [RBW] Re: Atlantis Old vs New?

[Ed Fausto]

Hi,
I share the thoughts of Tom.
I also have both a 51 Toyo Atlantis and a 50 MIT Atlantis.
Although, I have used by Toyo Atlantis during my 2016 TransAm and it 
performed well with a fully loaded gears.
My only cons on my Toyo is the toe clip overlap which is annoying for me 
specially when grinding up slowly uphills.
I am by default a slow rider so toe clip often happens more frequently than 
other riders.

When I got my MIT, I feel the difference is it is more stable than my Toyo.
And of course, no more toe clip overlap :-)
I have not yet ridden my MIT on long tours.

As mentioned by others, since my MIT Atlantis is very much longer than my 
Toyo, it could be a challenge finding boxes after a long tour.
Regards,
Ed Fausto
Manila, Philippines

PS Even with the toe clip overlap on my Toyo Atlantis, I will still keep it 
due to sentimental reasons after my 2016 TransAm

On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 10:57:12 AM UTC+8 Tom Horton wrote:

> Re my toyo atlantis and my mit  expect there s a bit of 
> sentimentality/long familiarity involved with the toyo
>
> Before i built the mit atlantis up for trail riding i had a drop bar on it 
> and did a few five or six day tours  not heavily loaded (carrying maybe 
> 25-30 pounds if stuff)  it rode great   Never felt i wouldn t have gone 
> further on it
>
> But there s something about that massive toyo 68 a frame nowhere near 
> maxed by my own 6-5 frame   
>
> I do not however think i d like it as much as the mit on anything 
> resembling technical trail
>
> So a do everything atlantis?  The mit perhaps
>
> Also just starting to explore road and off road possibilities of a clem L 
> 64  but that ll be another story
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 4, 2023, at 3:59 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:
>
> My experience is limited to an early Waterford All Rounder, plus MIT 
> Atlantis and Appaloosa. My verdict as a guy who didn't trail ride any of 
> them: the shorter bike felt a little more maneuverable in urban riding but 
> not enough to offset the comfort of long chainstays and "get them bars 
> higher" headtube on the MIT bikes. When I had my custom built I asked for 
> the new stuff. 
>
>
> [image: Screenshot_20230304_121454.jpg]
>
> On Saturday, March 4, 2023 at 12:38:22 PM UTC-8 tylerj...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Edit: Anyone with experience riding the Toyo Atlantis, and the Joe 
>> Appaloosa, feel free to chime in. We are very limited on information 
>> throughout the internet
>>
>> Thanks, Tom, that's quite the garage you have there, and you are quite 
>> the resource! So, are you saying that, for roads and long touring, you 
>> would chose the Toyo, and trails, you would choose the Atlantis 3? Is this 
>> because you have more experience/sentiment on the Toyo? I have read many 
>> people mentioning the lack of whippy-control on single tracks, and I wonder 
>> if this is really an issue/gripe, or just a hot topic about the geometry. 
>> Because to me, the side profile of the bike looks super cool and unique 
>> with that long chainstay, it reminds me of those drag-racing motorcycles 
>> you see on the salt flats. The new chain stay makes me feel like Rivendell 
>> is either sitting on some new futuristic frame design or if it compensating 
>> for carrying heavy loads, and adding control. The Atlantis 3 makes me want 
>> to buy a set of knobby tires and go climb a mountain, which makes me wonder 
>> how people are liking it for the long haul, Youtube only has "Bike Checks," 
>> I want to know what the bike is that people are stuck on, like, "gun to the 
>> head- which one are you choosing". The Allrounder toyo/#2 Atlantis are 
>> clearly legends, and much cheaper with the addition of the new Atlantis 3.
>>
>> On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 7:03:03 AM UTC-7 Tom Horton wrote:
>>
>>> I have a toyo atlantis 68 and a few years ago added an mit atlantis 
>>> 64what I can tell you is that whenever I'm doing an extended road tour 
>>> the old toyo remains my go toand I have a 64? appaloosa too.  I have 
>>> refitted the mit atlantis with bullmoose bars and knobbies and love it for 
>>> riding forest roads and general trail use (nothing real technical).  would 
>>> not part with any of my rivs right now, but if I were taking off for cross 
>>> the country tomorrow, it'd be on the toyo (set up pretty standard with drop 
>>> bars and racks).
>>>
>>> I'm guessing either way you'll end up pretty happy.
>>>
>>> On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 2:40:56 AM UTC-5 Luke Hendrickson wrote:
>>>
 [image: 013DB9DE-6439-4B56-BC81-37D17806CEAA.jpeg]I, too, am 
 interested in hearing more from someone who’s had the good fortune to have 
 ridden both. I first fell in love with the 2, but bought in with the 
 latest 
 iteration and have no regrets. Then again, I’ve never ridden the last one 
 so perhaps I don’t know what I’m missing.

 What I *can* tell you is that I love my MIT. It’s comfortable and does 
 feel like the long Cadillac you mentioned, Tyler. 

[RBW] Re: Atlantis Old vs New?

[Tyler McClure]

Edit: Anyone with experience riding the Toyo Atlantis, and the Joe 
Appaloosa, feel free to chime in. We are very limited on information 
throughout the internet

Thanks, Tom, that's quite the garage you have there, and you are quite the 
resource! So, are you saying that, for roads and long touring, you would 
chose the Toyo, and trails, you would choose the Atlantis 3? Is this 
because you have more experience/sentiment on the Toyo? I have read many 
people mentioning the lack of whippy-control on single tracks, and I wonder 
if this is really an issue/gripe, or just a hot topic about the geometry. 
Because to me, the side profile of the bike looks super cool and unique 
with that long chainstay, it reminds me of those drag-racing motorcycles 
you see on the salt flats. The new chain stay makes me feel like Rivendell 
is either sitting on some new futuristic frame design or if it compensating 
for carrying heavy loads, and adding control. The Atlantis 3 makes me want 
to buy a set of knobby tires and go climb a mountain, which makes me wonder 
how people are liking it for the long haul, Youtube only has "Bike Checks," 
I want to know what the bike is that people are stuck on, like, "gun to the 
head- which one are you choosing". The Allrounder toyo/#2 Atlantis are 
clearly legends, and much cheaper with the addition of the new Atlantis 3.

On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 7:03:03 AM UTC-7 Tom Horton wrote:

> I have a toyo atlantis 68 and a few years ago added an mit atlantis 
> 64what I can tell you is that whenever I'm doing an extended road tour 
> the old toyo remains my go toand I have a 64? appaloosa too.  I have 
> refitted the mit atlantis with bullmoose bars and knobbies and love it for 
> riding forest roads and general trail use (nothing real technical).  would 
> not part with any of my rivs right now, but if I were taking off for cross 
> the country tomorrow, it'd be on the toyo (set up pretty standard with drop 
> bars and racks).
>
> I'm guessing either way you'll end up pretty happy.
>
> On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 2:40:56 AM UTC-5 Luke Hendrickson wrote:
>
>> [image: 013DB9DE-6439-4B56-BC81-37D17806CEAA.jpeg]I, too, am interested 
>> in hearing more from someone who’s had the good fortune to have ridden 
>> both. I first fell in love with the 2, but bought in with the latest 
>> iteration and have no regrets. Then again, I’ve never ridden the last one 
>> so perhaps I don’t know what I’m missing.
>>
>> What I *can* tell you is that I love my MIT. It’s comfortable and does 
>> feel like the long Cadillac you mentioned, Tyler. I’ve heard from more than 
>> one person that tight, technical singletrack isn’t great for the long 
>> chainstay Atlantis. I ride a fair share of singletrack here in San 
>> Francisco & in Marin, but it’s not all that technical or tight quarters. I 
>> mostly find myself in more wide open spaces, both paved and unpaved. The 
>> Atlantis is perfect for that.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sunday, February 26, 2023 at 10:35:26 PM UTC-8 tylerj...@gmail.com 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I am searching for a used Atlantis as my introductory first, Rivendell, 
>>> during my fall into the rabbit hole of the internet and bike opinions. I 
>>> have been steered toward the newer model Atlantis, but the Atlantis 2's are 
>>> cheaper and more readily available. I want to know whether anyone has ever 
>>> ridden the Atlantis 2 & 3? I am looking for honest opinions on the frame 
>>> geometry and ride feel. I like the idea of riding a long, old, vintage 
>>> Cadillac of a frame unless it is very limiting. The newest Atlantis has a 
>>> very long chain stay, and I am curious as to how this compares with the 
>>> older models. I have a large interest in loaded touring and riding fire 
>>> roads here in Montana, but I mostly ride roads and lazy gravel rides. I am 
>>> looking at an Atlantis 2 (not local at all) with 26" wheels. I have ridden 
>>> all wheel sizes and am not biased toward any particular size.
>>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Atlantis Old vs New?

[dougP]

You've fallen down a useful & informative rabbit hole. 

I have a 58 cm Atlantis that I bought from Rivendell in 2003 (now 20 yo!). 
I've used it extensively for loaded touring & it is everything everyone 
says. Good handling, versatile, able to carry loads front & rear, etc. I've 
done some off roading but mostly fire roads & easy trails. No technical 
single track. IMHO it would be the bike for the type of use as you describe 
it. The Atlantis 2 was 700c in 58 cm & larger, and 26" in 56 cm & smaller. 

The newer versions have more wheel sizes, including some in 650B. There is 
a rare Waterford version that was a bridge between Toyo & Taiwan. They were 
only built for a year or so, and feature slightly longer chainstays than 
the 2s but not the noticeably longer ones of the MITs. I rode one of these 
at RBWHQ, not realizing there was any difference. I immediately noticed the 
ride quality was more cushy than mine. I couldn't figure out what had 
changed, & the person I talked to just said vaguely "Oh, we fiddled with 
the geometry a little bit" but didn't elaborate.

Later, I rode a MIT version, 53 cm IIRC, and the ride was positively plush 
compared to mine. I got onto some easy trails for a few miles & it felt 
fine, even around fairly tight corners. No gnarly single track. 

One thing to be aware of is toe clip overlap. I have size 11 feet & 
sometimes hit the tire if making a tight, low speed turn. Not a major issue 
but it does bother some people. For many it's not a consideration. I 
believe the new geometries push the front wheel further out so this may no 
longer be an issue. I ride flat pedals so my feet can wander around. 

Regarding shipping, I have shipped my 58 cm quite a few times, including 
Europe. It's definitely a big bike to pack. Everything comes of (racks, 
etc.) to get it into a box. If shipping is in your plans, I'd definitely 
ask about packing a MIT Atlantis. 

Best of luck in your search.

Doug Peterson,
Irvine, CA

On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 2:32:16 PM UTC-8 Bill Schairer wrote:

> I've got an Atlantis2 I bought used in 2017.  I've ridden it between Banff 
> and Helena on the Great Divide Mountain Bike Route route fully loaded with 
> 700C 50mm tires and it did just fine.  There isn't much single track and I 
> tipped over a couple times on that but attribute to my lack of experience, 
> confidence, and skill rather than the bike.  Generally, I have zero 
> interest in technical single track.  This past summer I rode it from 
> Missoula to Denali NP fully loaded with 30mm tires up front and 40mm in the 
> rear.  Route included some 300 miles of gravel.  Again, it performed 
> wonderfully.  It is a very versatile bike that has done everything I've 
> asked of it.  I've put just shy of 13,000 miles on in the past 5 years.
>
> The new Atlantis looks like a completely different animal to me, one in 
> which I have no interest.  One of the guys on the Alaska trip said he had 
> an Atlantis but chose not to ride it on the trip because he couldn't get it 
> into a box.  I therefore assumed it to be the new model.  He rode a Surly 
> instead.
>
> Bill S 
> San Diego
>
> [image: Screenshot 2023-02-27 at 2.08.47 PM.png]
> On Montana gravel - bicycle heaven.
>
> [image: Untitled.jpg]
> Somewhere in BC or Yukon.  We had a stretch in the Yukon where we carried 
> 5 days of food.  Bike plus gear probably weighed in close to 100 lbs. the 
> first day of the carry.
>
> On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 12:18:16 PM UTC-8 bryan...@gmail.com 
> wrote:
>
>> I just picked up a late 2000's Toyo Atlantis and I've ridden some of the 
>> longer chainstay more modern Rivendell frames. The biggest difference I 
>> think would be the chainstays for sure. The ride quality will be in my 
>> opinion vastly different, as the older Riv's had shorter (still longer for 
>> the time) chainstays keeping the bike a bit more nimble and quick as 
>> opposed to being super stable albeit a bit more "clumsy". An Atlantis 2 
>> with 26" wheels has plenty of possibilities. I'm sure you can clear real 
>> big tires if you wanted to, or go a more traditional tire with fenders and 
>> whatnot. 
>>
>> On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 1:35:26 AM UTC-5 tylerj...@gmail.com 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I am searching for a used Atlantis as my introductory first, Rivendell, 
>>> during my fall into the rabbit hole of the internet and bike opinions. I 
>>> have been steered toward the newer model Atlantis, but the Atlantis 2's are 
>>> cheaper and more readily available. I want to know whether anyone has ever 
>>> ridden the Atlantis 2 & 3? I am looking for honest opinions on the frame 
>>> geometry and ride feel. I like the idea of riding a long, old, vintage 
>>> Cadillac of a frame unless it is very limiting. The newest Atlantis has a 
>>> very long chain stay, and I am curious as to how this compares with the 
>>> older models. I have a large interest in loaded touring and riding fire 
>>> roads here in Montana, but I mostly ride roads 

[RBW] Re: Atlantis Old vs New?

[Bryan Dalik]

I just picked up a late 2000's Toyo Atlantis and I've ridden some of the 
longer chainstay more modern Rivendell frames. The biggest difference I 
think would be the chainstays for sure. The ride quality will be in my 
opinion vastly different, as the older Riv's had shorter (still longer for 
the time) chainstays keeping the bike a bit more nimble and quick as 
opposed to being super stable albeit a bit more "clumsy". An Atlantis 2 
with 26" wheels has plenty of possibilities. I'm sure you can clear real 
big tires if you wanted to, or go a more traditional tire with fenders and 
whatnot. 

On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 1:35:26 AM UTC-5 tylerj...@gmail.com wrote:

> I am searching for a used Atlantis as my introductory first, Rivendell, 
> during my fall into the rabbit hole of the internet and bike opinions. I 
> have been steered toward the newer model Atlantis, but the Atlantis 2's are 
> cheaper and more readily available. I want to know whether anyone has ever 
> ridden the Atlantis 2 & 3? I am looking for honest opinions on the frame 
> geometry and ride feel. I like the idea of riding a long, old, vintage 
> Cadillac of a frame unless it is very limiting. The newest Atlantis has a 
> very long chain stay, and I am curious as to how this compares with the 
> older models. I have a large interest in loaded touring and riding fire 
> roads here in Montana, but I mostly ride roads and lazy gravel rides. I am 
> looking at an Atlantis 2 (not local at all) with 26" wheels. I have ridden 
> all wheel sizes and am not biased toward any particular size.
>

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[RBW] Re: Atlantis Old vs New?

[Tom Horton]

I have a toyo atlantis 68 and a few years ago added an mit atlantis 
64what I can tell you is that whenever I'm doing an extended road tour 
the old toyo remains my go toand I have a 64? appaloosa too.  I have 
refitted the mit atlantis with bullmoose bars and knobbies and love it for 
riding forest roads and general trail use (nothing real technical).  would 
not part with any of my rivs right now, but if I were taking off for cross 
the country tomorrow, it'd be on the toyo (set up pretty standard with drop 
bars and racks).

I'm guessing either way you'll end up pretty happy.

On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 2:40:56 AM UTC-5 Luke Hendrickson wrote:

> [image: 013DB9DE-6439-4B56-BC81-37D17806CEAA.jpeg]I, too, am interested 
> in hearing more from someone who’s had the good fortune to have ridden 
> both. I first fell in love with the 2, but bought in with the latest 
> iteration and have no regrets. Then again, I’ve never ridden the last one 
> so perhaps I don’t know what I’m missing.
>
> What I *can* tell you is that I love my MIT. It’s comfortable and does 
> feel like the long Cadillac you mentioned, Tyler. I’ve heard from more than 
> one person that tight, technical singletrack isn’t great for the long 
> chainstay Atlantis. I ride a fair share of singletrack here in San 
> Francisco & in Marin, but it’s not all that technical or tight quarters. I 
> mostly find myself in more wide open spaces, both paved and unpaved. The 
> Atlantis is perfect for that.
>
>
>
> On Sunday, February 26, 2023 at 10:35:26 PM UTC-8 tylerj...@gmail.com 
> wrote:
>
>> I am searching for a used Atlantis as my introductory first, Rivendell, 
>> during my fall into the rabbit hole of the internet and bike opinions. I 
>> have been steered toward the newer model Atlantis, but the Atlantis 2's are 
>> cheaper and more readily available. I want to know whether anyone has ever 
>> ridden the Atlantis 2 & 3? I am looking for honest opinions on the frame 
>> geometry and ride feel. I like the idea of riding a long, old, vintage 
>> Cadillac of a frame unless it is very limiting. The newest Atlantis has a 
>> very long chain stay, and I am curious as to how this compares with the 
>> older models. I have a large interest in loaded touring and riding fire 
>> roads here in Montana, but I mostly ride roads and lazy gravel rides. I am 
>> looking at an Atlantis 2 (not local at all) with 26" wheels. I have ridden 
>> all wheel sizes and am not biased toward any particular size.
>>
>

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