Re: [RBW] Re: Atlantis evolution?

2021-10-23 Thread Hugh Smitham 
On Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 3:19 PM Jared Wilson  wrote:

> I was trying to figure out much of this same info a couple weeks back, it
> was hard to come up with a definitive timeline based on readily available
> info.
>
> This is why I agree with changing model names when deviating away from the
> bikes original form, it draws a clear line on what's what.
>

I for one am glad they stuck with the name/model.

It could have been solved by a running  data base/records using serial
numbers, but I figure a small company like Rivendell that had only been in
business for 6 years the last thing they were thinking beyond survival was
whether some nerds would want to know how the model changed through the
preceding years.

>
> The info is no longer of much use to me other than educational, but I'm
> glad to see a more in depth timeline now being established.
>

It's not that useful to me either other than just through pure curiosity.

I don't know how committed I am to this but the idea of creating a small
page devoted to the history of the Atlantis would be cool. Maybe in Google
docs where beyond the present it can be updated?

Hugh

>
> On Saturday, October 23, 2021 at 3:05:21 PM UTC-7 dougP wrote:
>
>> That Harris page is interesting.  It shows a 58 cm (my size) as having a
>> 59 cm TT.  I have a couple of Atlantis brochures from around when I got
>> mine (2003) that show a 58 with a 58.5 TT.  I can understanding rounding
>> 58.5 up to 59.  I just measured mine @ 56 cm or maybe 56.5 cm, center to
>> center, head tube to seat tube, along the slope of the top tube.  No way to
>> finagle to 58.
>>
>> The point is Rivendell made running changes that were fairly incremental
>> & non-consequential.  The big re-design was going to longer chainstays a
>> few years ago.  The brochures are un-dated, and both list the 68 cm size
>> that Harris says "coming 2001".  Whereas other manufacturers would use
>> subtle geo changes to call it a "new & improved" bike (along with the
>> latest fad color), Rivendell stuck with the same name & paint scheme and
>> kept improving the basic products.
>>
>> It would be fun to have a list of geometries by serial number but that
>> info is probably non-existent.
>>
>> dougP
>>
>> On Saturday, October 23, 2021 at 1:01:12 PM UTC-7 Hugh Smitham wrote:
>>
>>> I'll check it out Scott.
>>>
>>> I just got off the phone with James at Rivendell and we agreed that one
>>> of the largest changes from the first batch of MIT to the current batch of
>>> MIT is that the 56 cm was 650B and the current 55cm is 700c. The first
>>> batch of MIT had a shorter top tube as well making a drop bar more
>>> feasible. The new batch of the MIT as you can see drop the 56 cm altogether.
>>>
>>> I'm going to shoot an email to Grant Just to try to get a better year
>>> understanding of each iteration and maybe some of the geometry changes he
>>> made. We'll see this will be an interesting exchange.
>>>
>>> Hugh n LA
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 12:53 PM Scott G.  wrote:
>>>

 The Harris page has the specs on the first batch of Atlantis.
 https://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/atlantis.html#tubing
 Geometry is a bit different in several of the sizes.


 On Saturday, October 23, 2021 at 3:46:36 AM UTC-4 Joe Bernard wrote:

> Hugh, I don't know those details but you might find it here.
> Cyclofiend (hosts this list) has a treasure trove of Riv history.
>
> http://cyclofiend.com/rbw/atlantis/index.html
>
>
>
> On Friday, October 22, 2021 at 11:18:25 PM UTC-7 Hugh Smitham wrote:
>
>> Joe, I've been wondering about something. Do you know the timelines
>> for the various iterations? 1. Toyo 1999-?  2.Waterford and later longish
>> chain stay iteration Year to 2017? 3.  MIT version I believe is 2018- to
>> present.
>>
>> I remember my 2003 Atlantis had a <2> on the seat tube and recall
>> reading that it was the 2nd Toyo run or batch within the Toyo timeline 
>> but
>> have no idea what would have changed between the 1999 to my 2003 model?
>>
>> Hugh n LA
>>
>> On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 11:09:46 AM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>>> Short version, others here will know more details:
>>>
>>> Original was built in Japan by Toyo, I believe start year was 1999.
>>> Later iterations gained braze-ons, lost pointy headtube lugs and were 
>>> built
>>> by Waterford in USA. All of these came with 26" or 700C wheels, all had
>>> mostly-flat toptubes.
>>>
>>> There was an update in the final Waterford run which included
>>> slightly longer stays and some smaller frames got 650B wheels.
>>>
>>> Production shifted to Taiwan a few years ago to the current version
>>> with much longer stays and a sloping toptube. Sizing is different from 
>>> the
>>> Toyo/Waterford bikes.
>>>
>>> Joe Bernard
>>> On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 10:32:35 AM

Re: [RBW] Re: Atlantis evolution?

2021-10-23 Thread Jared Wilson 
I was trying to figure out much of this same info a couple weeks back, it 
was hard to come up with a definitive timeline based on readily available 
info. 

This is why I agree with changing model names when deviating away from the 
bikes original form, it draws a clear line on what's what.

The info is no longer of much use to me other than educational, but I'm 
glad to see a more in depth timeline now being established.

Jared in SLO

On Saturday, October 23, 2021 at 3:05:21 PM UTC-7 dougP wrote:

> That Harris page is interesting.  It shows a 58 cm (my size) as having a 
> 59 cm TT.  I have a couple of Atlantis brochures from around when I got 
> mine (2003) that show a 58 with a 58.5 TT.  I can understanding rounding 
> 58.5 up to 59.  I just measured mine @ 56 cm or maybe 56.5 cm, center to 
> center, head tube to seat tube, along the slope of the top tube.  No way to 
> finagle to 58.  
>
> The point is Rivendell made running changes that were fairly incremental & 
> non-consequential.  The big re-design was going to longer chainstays a few 
> years ago.  The brochures are un-dated, and both list the 68 cm size that 
> Harris says "coming 2001".  Whereas other manufacturers would use subtle 
> geo changes to call it a "new & improved" bike (along with the latest fad 
> color), Rivendell stuck with the same name & paint scheme and kept 
> improving the basic products.  
>
> It would be fun to have a list of geometries by serial number but that 
> info is probably non-existent.
>
> dougP
>
> On Saturday, October 23, 2021 at 1:01:12 PM UTC-7 Hugh Smitham wrote:
>
>> I'll check it out Scott.
>>
>> I just got off the phone with James at Rivendell and we agreed that one 
>> of the largest changes from the first batch of MIT to the current batch of 
>> MIT is that the 56 cm was 650B and the current 55cm is 700c. The first 
>> batch of MIT had a shorter top tube as well making a drop bar more 
>> feasible. The new batch of the MIT as you can see drop the 56 cm altogether.
>>
>> I'm going to shoot an email to Grant Just to try to get a better year 
>> understanding of each iteration and maybe some of the geometry changes he 
>> made. We'll see this will be an interesting exchange.
>>
>> Hugh n LA
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 12:53 PM Scott G.  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> The Harris page has the specs on the first batch of Atlantis.
>>> https://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/atlantis.html#tubing
>>> Geometry is a bit different in several of the sizes.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Saturday, October 23, 2021 at 3:46:36 AM UTC-4 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>>
 Hugh, I don't know those details but you might find it here. Cyclofiend 
 (hosts this list) has a treasure trove of Riv history. 

 http://cyclofiend.com/rbw/atlantis/index.html



 On Friday, October 22, 2021 at 11:18:25 PM UTC-7 Hugh Smitham wrote:

> Joe, I've been wondering about something. Do you know the timelines 
> for the various iterations? 1. Toyo 1999-?  2.Waterford and later longish 
> chain stay iteration Year to 2017? 3.  MIT version I believe is 2018- to 
> present.
>
> I remember my 2003 Atlantis had a <2> on the seat tube and recall 
> reading that it was the 2nd Toyo run or batch within the Toyo timeline 
> but 
> have no idea what would have changed between the 1999 to my 2003 model? 
>
> Hugh n LA
>
> On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 11:09:46 AM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:
>
>> Short version, others here will know more details:
>>
>> Original was built in Japan by Toyo, I believe start year was 1999. 
>> Later iterations gained braze-ons, lost pointy headtube lugs and were 
>> built 
>> by Waterford in USA. All of these came with 26" or 700C wheels, all had 
>> mostly-flat toptubes. 
>>
>> There was an update in the final Waterford run which included 
>> slightly longer stays and some smaller frames got 650B wheels. 
>>
>> Production shifted to Taiwan a few years ago to the current version 
>> with much longer stays and a sloping toptube. Sizing is different from 
>> the 
>> Toyo/Waterford bikes. 
>>
>> Joe Bernard
>> On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 10:32:35 AM UTC-7 David wrote:
>>
>>> Super newbie question here, but need to be sure fairly soon here for 
>>> a purchase... can you fine folks provide me with a quick, bulleted 
>>> evolution of the Atlantis across the three iterations of the frame?  
>>> Where 
>>> it was made, this one has longer stays, etc.?  I'm sure this onto is on 
>>> the 
>>> website, but sometimes stuff's kind of hidden on there and I often find 
>>> myself digging and digging for specific info I need.  Many, many thanks.
>>
>> -- 
>>>
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the 
>>> Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit 
>>>

Re: [RBW] Re: Atlantis evolution?

2021-10-23 Thread dougP 
That Harris page is interesting.  It shows a 58 cm (my size) as having a 59 
cm TT.  I have a couple of Atlantis brochures from around when I got mine 
(2003) that show a 58 with a 58.5 TT.  I can understanding rounding 58.5 up 
to 59.  I just measured mine @ 56 cm or maybe 56.5 cm, center to center, 
head tube to seat tube, along the slope of the top tube.  No way to finagle 
to 58.  

The point is Rivendell made running changes that were fairly incremental & 
non-consequential.  The big re-design was going to longer chainstays a few 
years ago.  The brochures are un-dated, and both list the 68 cm size that 
Harris says "coming 2001".  Whereas other manufacturers would use subtle 
geo changes to call it a "new & improved" bike (along with the latest fad 
color), Rivendell stuck with the same name & paint scheme and kept 
improving the basic products.  

It would be fun to have a list of geometries by serial number but that info 
is probably non-existent.

dougP

On Saturday, October 23, 2021 at 1:01:12 PM UTC-7 Hugh Smitham wrote:

> I'll check it out Scott.
>
> I just got off the phone with James at Rivendell and we agreed that one of 
> the largest changes from the first batch of MIT to the current batch of MIT 
> is that the 56 cm was 650B and the current 55cm is 700c. The first batch of 
> MIT had a shorter top tube as well making a drop bar more feasible. The new 
> batch of the MIT as you can see drop the 56 cm altogether.
>
> I'm going to shoot an email to Grant Just to try to get a better year 
> understanding of each iteration and maybe some of the geometry changes he 
> made. We'll see this will be an interesting exchange.
>
> Hugh n LA
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 12:53 PM Scott G.  wrote:
>
>>
>> The Harris page has the specs on the first batch of Atlantis.
>> https://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/atlantis.html#tubing
>> Geometry is a bit different in several of the sizes.
>>
>>
>> On Saturday, October 23, 2021 at 3:46:36 AM UTC-4 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>>> Hugh, I don't know those details but you might find it here. Cyclofiend 
>>> (hosts this list) has a treasure trove of Riv history. 
>>>
>>> http://cyclofiend.com/rbw/atlantis/index.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Friday, October 22, 2021 at 11:18:25 PM UTC-7 Hugh Smitham wrote:
>>>
 Joe, I've been wondering about something. Do you know the timelines for 
 the various iterations? 1. Toyo 1999-?  2.Waterford and later longish 
 chain 
 stay iteration Year to 2017? 3.  MIT version I believe is 2018- to present.

 I remember my 2003 Atlantis had a <2> on the seat tube and recall 
 reading that it was the 2nd Toyo run or batch within the Toyo timeline but 
 have no idea what would have changed between the 1999 to my 2003 model? 

 Hugh n LA

 On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 11:09:46 AM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:

> Short version, others here will know more details:
>
> Original was built in Japan by Toyo, I believe start year was 1999. 
> Later iterations gained braze-ons, lost pointy headtube lugs and were 
> built 
> by Waterford in USA. All of these came with 26" or 700C wheels, all had 
> mostly-flat toptubes. 
>
> There was an update in the final Waterford run which included slightly 
> longer stays and some smaller frames got 650B wheels. 
>
> Production shifted to Taiwan a few years ago to the current version 
> with much longer stays and a sloping toptube. Sizing is different from 
> the 
> Toyo/Waterford bikes. 
>
> Joe Bernard
> On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 10:32:35 AM UTC-7 David wrote:
>
>> Super newbie question here, but need to be sure fairly soon here for 
>> a purchase... can you fine folks provide me with a quick, bulleted 
>> evolution of the Atlantis across the three iterations of the frame?  
>> Where 
>> it was made, this one has longer stays, etc.?  I'm sure this onto is on 
>> the 
>> website, but sometimes stuff's kind of hidden on there and I often find 
>> myself digging and digging for specific info I need.  Many, many thanks.
>
> -- 
>>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the 
>> Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/ZxwFXhVvo8M/unsubscribe
>> .
>> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to 
>> rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
>>
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/d96f8258-9024-4645-aa25-aaf31d5c00b6n%40googlegroups.com
>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Atlantis evolution?

2021-10-23 Thread Hugh Smitham 
I'll check it out Scott.

I just got off the phone with James at Rivendell and we agreed that one of
the largest changes from the first batch of MIT to the current batch of MIT
is that the 56 cm was 650B and the current 55cm is 700c. The first batch of
MIT had a shorter top tube as well making a drop bar more feasible. The new
batch of the MIT as you can see drop the 56 cm altogether.

I'm going to shoot an email to Grant Just to try to get a better year
understanding of each iteration and maybe some of the geometry changes he
made. We'll see this will be an interesting exchange.

Hugh n LA




On Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 12:53 PM Scott G.  wrote:

>
> The Harris page has the specs on the first batch of Atlantis.
> https://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/atlantis.html#tubing
> Geometry is a bit different in several of the sizes.
>
>
> On Saturday, October 23, 2021 at 3:46:36 AM UTC-4 Joe Bernard wrote:
>
>> Hugh, I don't know those details but you might find it here. Cyclofiend
>> (hosts this list) has a treasure trove of Riv history.
>>
>> http://cyclofiend.com/rbw/atlantis/index.html
>>
>>
>>
>> On Friday, October 22, 2021 at 11:18:25 PM UTC-7 Hugh Smitham wrote:
>>
>>> Joe, I've been wondering about something. Do you know the timelines for
>>> the various iterations? 1. Toyo 1999-?  2.Waterford and later longish chain
>>> stay iteration Year to 2017? 3.  MIT version I believe is 2018- to present.
>>>
>>> I remember my 2003 Atlantis had a <2> on the seat tube and recall
>>> reading that it was the 2nd Toyo run or batch within the Toyo timeline but
>>> have no idea what would have changed between the 1999 to my 2003 model?
>>>
>>> Hugh n LA
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 11:09:46 AM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>>
 Short version, others here will know more details:

 Original was built in Japan by Toyo, I believe start year was 1999.
 Later iterations gained braze-ons, lost pointy headtube lugs and were built
 by Waterford in USA. All of these came with 26" or 700C wheels, all had
 mostly-flat toptubes.

 There was an update in the final Waterford run which included slightly
 longer stays and some smaller frames got 650B wheels.

 Production shifted to Taiwan a few years ago to the current version
 with much longer stays and a sloping toptube. Sizing is different from the
 Toyo/Waterford bikes.

 Joe Bernard
 On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 10:32:35 AM UTC-7 David wrote:

> Super newbie question here, but need to be sure fairly soon here for a
> purchase... can you fine folks provide me with a quick, bulleted evolution
> of the Atlantis across the three iterations of the frame?  Where it was
> made, this one has longer stays, etc.?  I'm sure this onto is on the
> website, but sometimes stuff's kind of hidden on there and I often find
> myself digging and digging for specific info I need.  Many, many thanks.

 --
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> 
> .
>

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[RBW] Re: Atlantis evolution?

2021-10-23 Thread Scott G. 

The Harris page has the specs on the first batch of Atlantis.
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/atlantis.html#tubing
Geometry is a bit different in several of the sizes.


On Saturday, October 23, 2021 at 3:46:36 AM UTC-4 Joe Bernard wrote:

> Hugh, I don't know those details but you might find it here. Cyclofiend 
> (hosts this list) has a treasure trove of Riv history. 
>
> http://cyclofiend.com/rbw/atlantis/index.html
>
>
>
> On Friday, October 22, 2021 at 11:18:25 PM UTC-7 Hugh Smitham wrote:
>
>> Joe, I've been wondering about something. Do you know the timelines for 
>> the various iterations? 1. Toyo 1999-?  2.Waterford and later longish chain 
>> stay iteration Year to 2017? 3.  MIT version I believe is 2018- to present.
>>
>> I remember my 2003 Atlantis had a <2> on the seat tube and recall reading 
>> that it was the 2nd Toyo run or batch within the Toyo timeline but have no 
>> idea what would have changed between the 1999 to my 2003 model? 
>>
>> Hugh n LA
>>
>> On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 11:09:46 AM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>>> Short version, others here will know more details:
>>>
>>> Original was built in Japan by Toyo, I believe start year was 1999. 
>>> Later iterations gained braze-ons, lost pointy headtube lugs and were built 
>>> by Waterford in USA. All of these came with 26" or 700C wheels, all had 
>>> mostly-flat toptubes. 
>>>
>>> There was an update in the final Waterford run which included slightly 
>>> longer stays and some smaller frames got 650B wheels. 
>>>
>>> Production shifted to Taiwan a few years ago to the current version with 
>>> much longer stays and a sloping toptube. Sizing is different from the 
>>> Toyo/Waterford bikes. 
>>>
>>> Joe Bernard
>>> On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 10:32:35 AM UTC-7 David wrote:
>>>
 Super newbie question here, but need to be sure fairly soon here for a 
 purchase... can you fine folks provide me with a quick, bulleted evolution 
 of the Atlantis across the three iterations of the frame?  Where it was 
 made, this one has longer stays, etc.?  I'm sure this onto is on the 
 website, but sometimes stuff's kind of hidden on there and I often find 
 myself digging and digging for specific info I need.  Many, many thanks.
>>>
>>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Atlantis evolution?

2021-10-23 Thread Hugh Smitham 
Doug,

Well that would make sense regarding the number two. I just finished
reading that riv reader pertaining to the Bridgestone ode to Singer Frenchy
bike designed by Mr. Watanabe.

As far as I can tell there was a MIT version after (between) the Waterford
run and the current MIT run. I think the distinction was shorter top tube
but similarly long chain stays. Just curious the years.

Doug your memory has always served me pretty darn well :)

Joe, It's funny but If my memory serves me it was Jim's cyclofiend archive
site that originally turned me on to Rivendell.

My Genesis, back in 2007 I was riding a pinarello, a small bike shop in
downtown LA I used to visit, a mechanics there told me about Waterford, He
basically said if you want to find a really sweet bike! Go take a look at
Waterford. Researching Waterford and at the time blown away by the high
cost somehow led me to Jim's site and consequently Rivendell, which was
IMHO a great value. And I still think they're a great value.




On Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 11:00 AM dougP  wrote:

> Hugh:
>
> Somewhere I read that the "2" on the seat tube is a reference to the
> Rivendell Atlantis being the second use of the name, the first being an
> Atlantis made by Bridgestone but never brought to the US.
>
> We need our resident Rivendell archivist (the guy with a garage full) to
> comment.  My understanding is all the Toyo ones had same geometry & only
> differed in details such as pointy lugs, roundy lugs and number of braze
> ons.  Production shifted to Waterford sometime around 2015 & that may have
> been addressed in a Riv e-mail or Blahg.  It was either 2016 or 2017 when I
> rode the Waterford 650B that I believe was a 56.  It felt different than my
> 58 but I put it off to new bike components.  I asked Roman what had changed
> & I think he mentioned wheelbase, but it still looked the same.  Then when
> production went to Taiwan in 2018 (?) the long chainstays were obvious.  I
> rode one of those & was favorably impressed.
>
> Some of this is from fuzzy recollection but I think the general facts are
> OK.
>
> dougP
>
> On Saturday, October 23, 2021 at 9:40:50 AM UTC-7 Hugh Smitham wrote:
>
>> Joe,
>>
>> Thanks. Jim's RR's stop at Summer 2000, there's some mention around 2009
>> but really less than complete historical account of the Atlantis. I feel a
>> project brewing.
>>
>> Hugh n LA
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 12:46 AM Joe Bernard  wrote:
>>
>>> Hugh, I don't know those details but you might find it here. Cyclofiend
>>> (hosts this list) has a treasure trove of Riv history.
>>>
>>> http://cyclofiend.com/rbw/atlantis/index.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Friday, October 22, 2021 at 11:18:25 PM UTC-7 Hugh Smitham wrote:
>>>
 Joe, I've been wondering about something. Do you know the timelines for
 the various iterations? 1. Toyo 1999-?  2.Waterford and later longish chain
 stay iteration Year to 2017? 3.  MIT version I believe is 2018- to present.

 I remember my 2003 Atlantis had a <2> on the seat tube and recall
 reading that it was the 2nd Toyo run or batch within the Toyo timeline but
 have no idea what would have changed between the 1999 to my 2003 model?

 Hugh n LA

 On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 11:09:46 AM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:

> Short version, others here will know more details:
>
> Original was built in Japan by Toyo, I believe start year was 1999.
> Later iterations gained braze-ons, lost pointy headtube lugs and were 
> built
> by Waterford in USA. All of these came with 26" or 700C wheels, all had
> mostly-flat toptubes.
>
> There was an update in the final Waterford run which included slightly
> longer stays and some smaller frames got 650B wheels.
>
> Production shifted to Taiwan a few years ago to the current version
> with much longer stays and a sloping toptube. Sizing is different from the
> Toyo/Waterford bikes.
>
> Joe Bernard
> On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 10:32:35 AM UTC-7 David wrote:
>
>> Super newbie question here, but need to be sure fairly soon here for
>> a purchase... can you fine folks provide me with a quick, bulleted
>> evolution of the Atlantis across the three iterations of the frame?  
>> Where
>> it was made, this one has longer stays, etc.?  I'm sure this onto is on 
>> the
>> website, but sometimes stuff's kind of hidden on there and I often find
>> myself digging and digging for specific info I need.  Many, many thanks.
>
> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the
>>> Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/ZxwFXhVvo8M/unsubscribe
>>> .
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to
>>> rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>>

Re: [RBW] Re: Atlantis evolution?

2021-10-23 Thread dougP 
Hugh:

Somewhere I read that the "2" on the seat tube is a reference to the 
Rivendell Atlantis being the second use of the name, the first being an 
Atlantis made by Bridgestone but never brought to the US.  

We need our resident Rivendell archivist (the guy with a garage full) to 
comment.  My understanding is all the Toyo ones had same geometry & only 
differed in details such as pointy lugs, roundy lugs and number of braze 
ons.  Production shifted to Waterford sometime around 2015 & that may have 
been addressed in a Riv e-mail or Blahg.  It was either 2016 or 2017 when I 
rode the Waterford 650B that I believe was a 56.  It felt different than my 
58 but I put it off to new bike components.  I asked Roman what had changed 
& I think he mentioned wheelbase, but it still looked the same.  Then when 
production went to Taiwan in 2018 (?) the long chainstays were obvious.  I 
rode one of those & was favorably impressed.

Some of this is from fuzzy recollection but I think the general facts are 
OK.

dougP

On Saturday, October 23, 2021 at 9:40:50 AM UTC-7 Hugh Smitham wrote:

> Joe,
>
> Thanks. Jim's RR's stop at Summer 2000, there's some mention around 2009 
> but really less than complete historical account of the Atlantis. I feel a 
> project brewing.
>
> Hugh n LA
>
> On Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 12:46 AM Joe Bernard  wrote:
>
>> Hugh, I don't know those details but you might find it here. Cyclofiend 
>> (hosts this list) has a treasure trove of Riv history. 
>>
>> http://cyclofiend.com/rbw/atlantis/index.html
>>
>>
>>
>> On Friday, October 22, 2021 at 11:18:25 PM UTC-7 Hugh Smitham wrote:
>>
>>> Joe, I've been wondering about something. Do you know the timelines for 
>>> the various iterations? 1. Toyo 1999-?  2.Waterford and later longish chain 
>>> stay iteration Year to 2017? 3.  MIT version I believe is 2018- to present.
>>>
>>> I remember my 2003 Atlantis had a <2> on the seat tube and recall 
>>> reading that it was the 2nd Toyo run or batch within the Toyo timeline but 
>>> have no idea what would have changed between the 1999 to my 2003 model? 
>>>
>>> Hugh n LA
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 11:09:46 AM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>>
 Short version, others here will know more details:

 Original was built in Japan by Toyo, I believe start year was 1999. 
 Later iterations gained braze-ons, lost pointy headtube lugs and were 
 built 
 by Waterford in USA. All of these came with 26" or 700C wheels, all had 
 mostly-flat toptubes. 

 There was an update in the final Waterford run which included slightly 
 longer stays and some smaller frames got 650B wheels. 

 Production shifted to Taiwan a few years ago to the current version 
 with much longer stays and a sloping toptube. Sizing is different from the 
 Toyo/Waterford bikes. 

 Joe Bernard
 On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 10:32:35 AM UTC-7 David wrote:

> Super newbie question here, but need to be sure fairly soon here for a 
> purchase... can you fine folks provide me with a quick, bulleted 
> evolution 
> of the Atlantis across the three iterations of the frame?  Where it was 
> made, this one has longer stays, etc.?  I'm sure this onto is on the 
> website, but sometimes stuff's kind of hidden on there and I often find 
> myself digging and digging for specific info I need.  Many, many thanks.

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>> 
>> .
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Atlantis evolution?

2021-10-23 Thread Hugh Smitham 
Joe,

Thanks. Jim's RR's stop at Summer 2000, there's some mention around 2009
but really less than complete historical account of the Atlantis. I feel a
project brewing.

Hugh n LA

On Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 12:46 AM Joe Bernard  wrote:

> Hugh, I don't know those details but you might find it here. Cyclofiend
> (hosts this list) has a treasure trove of Riv history.
>
> http://cyclofiend.com/rbw/atlantis/index.html
>
>
>
> On Friday, October 22, 2021 at 11:18:25 PM UTC-7 Hugh Smitham wrote:
>
>> Joe, I've been wondering about something. Do you know the timelines for
>> the various iterations? 1. Toyo 1999-?  2.Waterford and later longish chain
>> stay iteration Year to 2017? 3.  MIT version I believe is 2018- to present.
>>
>> I remember my 2003 Atlantis had a <2> on the seat tube and recall reading
>> that it was the 2nd Toyo run or batch within the Toyo timeline but have no
>> idea what would have changed between the 1999 to my 2003 model?
>>
>> Hugh n LA
>>
>> On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 11:09:46 AM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>>> Short version, others here will know more details:
>>>
>>> Original was built in Japan by Toyo, I believe start year was 1999.
>>> Later iterations gained braze-ons, lost pointy headtube lugs and were built
>>> by Waterford in USA. All of these came with 26" or 700C wheels, all had
>>> mostly-flat toptubes.
>>>
>>> There was an update in the final Waterford run which included slightly
>>> longer stays and some smaller frames got 650B wheels.
>>>
>>> Production shifted to Taiwan a few years ago to the current version with
>>> much longer stays and a sloping toptube. Sizing is different from the
>>> Toyo/Waterford bikes.
>>>
>>> Joe Bernard
>>> On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 10:32:35 AM UTC-7 David wrote:
>>>
 Super newbie question here, but need to be sure fairly soon here for a
 purchase... can you fine folks provide me with a quick, bulleted evolution
 of the Atlantis across the three iterations of the frame?  Where it was
 made, this one has longer stays, etc.?  I'm sure this onto is on the
 website, but sometimes stuff's kind of hidden on there and I often find
 myself digging and digging for specific info I need.  Many, many thanks.
>>>
>>> --
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[RBW] Re: Atlantis evolution?

2021-10-23 Thread Joe Bernard 
Hugh, I don't know those details but you might find it here. Cyclofiend 
(hosts this list) has a treasure trove of Riv history. 

http://cyclofiend.com/rbw/atlantis/index.html



On Friday, October 22, 2021 at 11:18:25 PM UTC-7 Hugh Smitham wrote:

> Joe, I've been wondering about something. Do you know the timelines for 
> the various iterations? 1. Toyo 1999-?  2.Waterford and later longish chain 
> stay iteration Year to 2017? 3.  MIT version I believe is 2018- to present.
>
> I remember my 2003 Atlantis had a <2> on the seat tube and recall reading 
> that it was the 2nd Toyo run or batch within the Toyo timeline but have no 
> idea what would have changed between the 1999 to my 2003 model? 
>
> Hugh n LA
>
> On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 11:09:46 AM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:
>
>> Short version, others here will know more details:
>>
>> Original was built in Japan by Toyo, I believe start year was 1999. Later 
>> iterations gained braze-ons, lost pointy headtube lugs and were built by 
>> Waterford in USA. All of these came with 26" or 700C wheels, all had 
>> mostly-flat toptubes. 
>>
>> There was an update in the final Waterford run which included slightly 
>> longer stays and some smaller frames got 650B wheels. 
>>
>> Production shifted to Taiwan a few years ago to the current version with 
>> much longer stays and a sloping toptube. Sizing is different from the 
>> Toyo/Waterford bikes. 
>>
>> Joe Bernard
>> On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 10:32:35 AM UTC-7 David wrote:
>>
>>> Super newbie question here, but need to be sure fairly soon here for a 
>>> purchase... can you fine folks provide me with a quick, bulleted evolution 
>>> of the Atlantis across the three iterations of the frame?  Where it was 
>>> made, this one has longer stays, etc.?  I'm sure this onto is on the 
>>> website, but sometimes stuff's kind of hidden on there and I often find 
>>> myself digging and digging for specific info I need.  Many, many thanks.
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Atlantis evolution?

2021-10-23 Thread Hugh Smitham 
Joe, I've been wondering about something. Do you know the timelines for the 
various iterations? 1. Toyo 1999-?  2.Waterford and later longish chain 
stay iteration Year to 2017? 3.  MIT version I believe is 2018- to present.

I remember my 2003 Atlantis had a <2> on the seat tube and recall reading 
that it was the 2nd Toyo run or batch within the Toyo timeline but have no 
idea what would have changed between the 1999 to my 2003 model? 

Hugh n LA

On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 11:09:46 AM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:

> Short version, others here will know more details:
>
> Original was built in Japan by Toyo, I believe start year was 1999. Later 
> iterations gained braze-ons, lost pointy headtube lugs and were built by 
> Waterford in USA. All of these came with 26" or 700C wheels, all had 
> mostly-flat toptubes. 
>
> There was an update in the final Waterford run which included slightly 
> longer stays and some smaller frames got 650B wheels. 
>
> Production shifted to Taiwan a few years ago to the current version with 
> much longer stays and a sloping toptube. Sizing is different from the 
> Toyo/Waterford bikes. 
>
> Joe Bernard
> On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 10:32:35 AM UTC-7 David wrote:
>
>> Super newbie question here, but need to be sure fairly soon here for a 
>> purchase... can you fine folks provide me with a quick, bulleted evolution 
>> of the Atlantis across the three iterations of the frame?  Where it was 
>> made, this one has longer stays, etc.?  I'm sure this onto is on the 
>> website, but sometimes stuff's kind of hidden on there and I often find 
>> myself digging and digging for specific info I need.  Many, many thanks.
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Atlantis evolution?

2021-10-22 Thread Hugh Smitham 
Joe,

Op asked and you delivered. Very succinct Sir.

Hugh n LA

On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 11:09:46 AM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:

> Short version, others here will know more details:
>
> Original was built in Japan by Toyo, I believe start year was 1999. Later 
> iterations gained braze-ons, lost pointy headtube lugs and were built by 
> Waterford in USA. All of these came with 26" or 700C wheels, all had 
> mostly-flat toptubes. 
>
> There was an update in the final Waterford run which included slightly 
> longer stays and some smaller frames got 650B wheels. 
>
> Production shifted to Taiwan a few years ago to the current version with 
> much longer stays and a sloping toptube. Sizing is different from the 
> Toyo/Waterford bikes. 
>
> Joe Bernard
> On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 10:32:35 AM UTC-7 David wrote:
>
>> Super newbie question here, but need to be sure fairly soon here for a 
>> purchase... can you fine folks provide me with a quick, bulleted evolution 
>> of the Atlantis across the three iterations of the frame?  Where it was 
>> made, this one has longer stays, etc.?  I'm sure this onto is on the 
>> website, but sometimes stuff's kind of hidden on there and I often find 
>> myself digging and digging for specific info I need.  Many, many thanks.
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Atlantis evolution?

2021-10-21 Thread Scott G. 
The first version had curvy chain stays (starlight?), steeper head angle 
and less rear tire clearance.
2nd version had chain stays with one curve, more tire clearance, and  plus 
.5 degree on the head angle.
Both were Toyo built.

On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 2:09:46 PM UTC-4 Joe Bernard wrote:

> Short version, others here will know more details:
>
> Original was built in Japan by Toyo, I believe start year was 1999. Later 
> iterations gained braze-ons, lost pointy headtube lugs and were built by 
> Waterford in USA. All of these came with 26" or 700C wheels, all had 
> mostly-flat toptubes. 
>
> There was an update in the final Waterford run which included slightly 
> longer stays and some smaller frames got 650B wheels. 
>
> Production shifted to Taiwan a few years ago to the current version with 
> much longer stays and a sloping toptube. Sizing is different from the 
> Toyo/Waterford bikes. 
>
> Joe Bernard
> On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 10:32:35 AM UTC-7 David wrote:
>
>> Super newbie question here, but need to be sure fairly soon here for a 
>> purchase... can you fine folks provide me with a quick, bulleted evolution 
>> of the Atlantis across the three iterations of the frame?  Where it was 
>> made, this one has longer stays, etc.?  I'm sure this onto is on the 
>> website, but sometimes stuff's kind of hidden on there and I often find 
>> myself digging and digging for specific info I need.  Many, many thanks.
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Atlantis evolution?

2021-10-20 Thread dougP 
David:

If you are looking at a specific bike, the serial number is on the bottom 
of the bottom bracket, & will start with "AT..."; followed by some digits.  
You may be able to get a clue from the sn.  I don't know if Rivendell kept 
track of serial numbers especially in the early days.  The nominal frame 
size, wheel size & chainstay length are important to determine vintage.  

dougP

On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 2:46:27 PM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:

> Happy to help, man! I've been following the Riv saga from the beginning 
> and have become increasingly aware that a whole dang lot of time has 
> passed, and newer converts to these lovely bicycles don't have the 
> institutional memory of this stuff I carry around in my head. I know stuff! 
> 
>
> Joe "except for all the stuff I forgot" Bernard 
>
> On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 2:38:09 PM UTC-7 David wrote:
>
>> Thanks, Joe. You provided exactly what I was looking for:  a quick 
>> evolution of *all *Atlantis' over time.
>>
>> On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 1:14:44 PM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>>> As pertains to the two 53cm bikes on Ebay:
>>>
>>> One (with "2" on the seattube) is an early Toyo with pointy lugs. The 
>>> one Matt at Crust owned is a smaller frame from Taiwan. 
>>>
>>> I'm 79PBH and could ride the Toyo bike with drops/moustache or the MIT 
>>> with pullback bars. 
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 11:09:46 AM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>>
 Short version, others here will know more details:

 Original was built in Japan by Toyo, I believe start year was 1999. 
 Later iterations gained braze-ons, lost pointy headtube lugs and were 
 built 
 by Waterford in USA. All of these came with 26" or 700C wheels, all had 
 mostly-flat toptubes. 

 There was an update in the final Waterford run which included slightly 
 longer stays and some smaller frames got 650B wheels. 

 Production shifted to Taiwan a few years ago to the current version 
 with much longer stays and a sloping toptube. Sizing is different from the 
 Toyo/Waterford bikes. 

 Joe Bernard
 On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 10:32:35 AM UTC-7 David wrote:

> Super newbie question here, but need to be sure fairly soon here for a 
> purchase... can you fine folks provide me with a quick, bulleted 
> evolution 
> of the Atlantis across the three iterations of the frame?  Where it was 
> made, this one has longer stays, etc.?  I'm sure this onto is on the 
> website, but sometimes stuff's kind of hidden on there and I often find 
> myself digging and digging for specific info I need.  Many, many thanks.



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[RBW] Re: Atlantis evolution?

2021-10-20 Thread Joe Bernard 
Happy to help, man! I've been following the Riv saga from the beginning and 
have become increasingly aware that a whole dang lot of time has passed, 
and newer converts to these lovely bicycles don't have the institutional 
memory of this stuff I carry around in my head. I know stuff! 

Joe "except for all the stuff I forgot" Bernard 

On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 2:38:09 PM UTC-7 David wrote:

> Thanks, Joe. You provided exactly what I was looking for:  a quick 
> evolution of *all *Atlantis' over time.
>
> On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 1:14:44 PM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:
>
>> As pertains to the two 53cm bikes on Ebay:
>>
>> One (with "2" on the seattube) is an early Toyo with pointy lugs. The one 
>> Matt at Crust owned is a smaller frame from Taiwan. 
>>
>> I'm 79PBH and could ride the Toyo bike with drops/moustache or the MIT 
>> with pullback bars. 
>>
>> On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 11:09:46 AM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>>> Short version, others here will know more details:
>>>
>>> Original was built in Japan by Toyo, I believe start year was 1999. 
>>> Later iterations gained braze-ons, lost pointy headtube lugs and were built 
>>> by Waterford in USA. All of these came with 26" or 700C wheels, all had 
>>> mostly-flat toptubes. 
>>>
>>> There was an update in the final Waterford run which included slightly 
>>> longer stays and some smaller frames got 650B wheels. 
>>>
>>> Production shifted to Taiwan a few years ago to the current version with 
>>> much longer stays and a sloping toptube. Sizing is different from the 
>>> Toyo/Waterford bikes. 
>>>
>>> Joe Bernard
>>> On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 10:32:35 AM UTC-7 David wrote:
>>>
 Super newbie question here, but need to be sure fairly soon here for a 
 purchase... can you fine folks provide me with a quick, bulleted evolution 
 of the Atlantis across the three iterations of the frame?  Where it was 
 made, this one has longer stays, etc.?  I'm sure this onto is on the 
 website, but sometimes stuff's kind of hidden on there and I often find 
 myself digging and digging for specific info I need.  Many, many thanks.
>>>
>>>

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[RBW] Re: Atlantis evolution?

2021-10-20 Thread David 
Thanks, Joe. You provided exactly what I was looking for:  a quick 
evolution of *all *Atlantis' over time.

On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 1:14:44 PM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:

> As pertains to the two 53cm bikes on Ebay:
>
> One (with "2" on the seattube) is an early Toyo with pointy lugs. The one 
> Matt at Crust owned is a smaller frame from Taiwan. 
>
> I'm 79PBH and could ride the Toyo bike with drops/moustache or the MIT 
> with pullback bars. 
>
> On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 11:09:46 AM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:
>
>> Short version, others here will know more details:
>>
>> Original was built in Japan by Toyo, I believe start year was 1999. Later 
>> iterations gained braze-ons, lost pointy headtube lugs and were built by 
>> Waterford in USA. All of these came with 26" or 700C wheels, all had 
>> mostly-flat toptubes. 
>>
>> There was an update in the final Waterford run which included slightly 
>> longer stays and some smaller frames got 650B wheels. 
>>
>> Production shifted to Taiwan a few years ago to the current version with 
>> much longer stays and a sloping toptube. Sizing is different from the 
>> Toyo/Waterford bikes. 
>>
>> Joe Bernard
>> On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 10:32:35 AM UTC-7 David wrote:
>>
>>> Super newbie question here, but need to be sure fairly soon here for a 
>>> purchase... can you fine folks provide me with a quick, bulleted evolution 
>>> of the Atlantis across the three iterations of the frame?  Where it was 
>>> made, this one has longer stays, etc.?  I'm sure this onto is on the 
>>> website, but sometimes stuff's kind of hidden on there and I often find 
>>> myself digging and digging for specific info I need.  Many, many thanks.
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Atlantis evolution?

2021-10-20 Thread Joe Bernard 
As pertains to the two 53cm bikes on Ebay:

One (with "2" on the seattube) is an early Toyo with pointy lugs. The one 
Matt at Crust owned is a smaller frame from Taiwan. 

I'm 79PBH and could ride the Toyo bike with drops/moustache or the MIT with 
pullback bars. 

On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 11:09:46 AM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:

> Short version, others here will know more details:
>
> Original was built in Japan by Toyo, I believe start year was 1999. Later 
> iterations gained braze-ons, lost pointy headtube lugs and were built by 
> Waterford in USA. All of these came with 26" or 700C wheels, all had 
> mostly-flat toptubes. 
>
> There was an update in the final Waterford run which included slightly 
> longer stays and some smaller frames got 650B wheels. 
>
> Production shifted to Taiwan a few years ago to the current version with 
> much longer stays and a sloping toptube. Sizing is different from the 
> Toyo/Waterford bikes. 
>
> Joe Bernard
> On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 10:32:35 AM UTC-7 David wrote:
>
>> Super newbie question here, but need to be sure fairly soon here for a 
>> purchase... can you fine folks provide me with a quick, bulleted evolution 
>> of the Atlantis across the three iterations of the frame?  Where it was 
>> made, this one has longer stays, etc.?  I'm sure this onto is on the 
>> website, but sometimes stuff's kind of hidden on there and I often find 
>> myself digging and digging for specific info I need.  Many, many thanks.
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Atlantis evolution?

2021-10-20 Thread Bill Lindsay 
The original poster said he "often find myself digging and digging for 
specific info I need"

What specific info do you need?  It sounds like you are considering buying 
a particular secondhand Atlantis.  For that reason you want information 
about that bike, not all Atlantis' over all time.  Get specific, and I'm 
sure we can help you.  Take a picture, share a link, a serial number.  What 
info do you have and what info are you missing?

Does it have 650B wheels?  It's newer
Does it have 26" wheels?  It's older (unless it's a tiny frame size)
Does it have 700c wheels?  That doesn't determine anything (unless it's a 
medium frame size)

Do the chainstay look weirdly long to people who are used to looking at 
bikes?  It's newer
Does it have a curvy second top tube?  It's big and newer

Does it have a practically flat top tube?  It's older

Is the top tube length short enough that a drop-bar cockpit is sensible?  
It's older (with a tiny window of exception)

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA 
On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 10:32:35 AM UTC-7 David wrote:

> Super newbie question here, but need to be sure fairly soon here for a 
> purchase... can you fine folks provide me with a quick, bulleted evolution 
> of the Atlantis across the three iterations of the frame?  Where it was 
> made, this one has longer stays, etc.?  I'm sure this onto is on the 
> website, but sometimes stuff's kind of hidden on there and I often find 
> myself digging and digging for specific info I need.  Many, many thanks.

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[RBW] Re: Atlantis evolution?

2021-10-20 Thread Joe Bernard 
Short version, others here will know more details:

Original was built in Japan by Toyo, I believe start year was 1999. Later 
iterations gained braze-ons, lost pointy headtube lugs and were built by 
Waterford in USA. All of these came with 26" or 700C wheels, all had 
mostly-flat toptubes. 

There was an update in the final Waterford run which included slightly 
longer stays and some smaller frames got 650B wheels. 

Production shifted to Taiwan a few years ago to the current version with 
much longer stays and a sloping toptube. Sizing is different from the 
Toyo/Waterford bikes. 

Joe Bernard
On Wednesday, October 20, 2021 at 10:32:35 AM UTC-7 David wrote:

> Super newbie question here, but need to be sure fairly soon here for a 
> purchase... can you fine folks provide me with a quick, bulleted evolution 
> of the Atlantis across the three iterations of the frame?  Where it was 
> made, this one has longer stays, etc.?  I'm sure this onto is on the 
> website, but sometimes stuff's kind of hidden on there and I often find 
> myself digging and digging for specific info I need.  Many, many thanks.

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