[RBW] Re: Finding fun in un-un-racing

2016-06-21 Thread Deacon Patrick
Go for it!

On Tuesday, June 21, 2016 at 3:56:40 PM UTC-6, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> The embroidered badge for the El Cerrito High School Mountain Bike Racing 
> Team should have the slogan:
>
> "have fun not having fun! Grin."
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, June 21, 2016 at 2:40:07 PM UTC-7, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>>
>> Ahhh, yes. I suspect that kind of climbing that would justify a 
>> suspension fork. What truly matters, is that you have fun not having fun! 
>> Grin.
>>
>> With abandon,
>> Patrick
>>
>> On Tuesday, June 21, 2016 at 3:00:58 PM UTC-6, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>>>
>>> The Deacon speculated:
>>>  
>>>
  "I would imagine no suspension will speed the climb."

>>>
>>> That's a possibility, but the trail is extremely rocky, so I think the 
>>> suspension fork allows me to plow through things that a rigid fork might 
>>> get bounced off-line.  That's why it's worth experimenting.
>>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Finding fun in un-un-racing

2016-06-21 Thread Bill Lindsay
The embroidered badge for the El Cerrito High School Mountain Bike Racing 
Team should have the slogan:

"have fun not having fun! Grin."



On Tuesday, June 21, 2016 at 2:40:07 PM UTC-7, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
> Ahhh, yes. I suspect that kind of climbing that would justify a suspension 
> fork. What truly matters, is that you have fun not having fun! Grin.
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>
> On Tuesday, June 21, 2016 at 3:00:58 PM UTC-6, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>>
>> The Deacon speculated:
>>  
>>
>>>  "I would imagine no suspension will speed the climb."
>>>
>>
>> That's a possibility, but the trail is extremely rocky, so I think the 
>> suspension fork allows me to plow through things that a rigid fork might 
>> get bounced off-line.  That's why it's worth experimenting.
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Finding fun in un-un-racing

2016-06-21 Thread Deacon Patrick
Ahhh, yes. I suspect that kind of climbing that would justify a suspension 
fork. What truly matters, is that you have fun not having fun! Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Tuesday, June 21, 2016 at 3:00:58 PM UTC-6, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> The Deacon speculated:
>  
>
>>  "I would imagine no suspension will speed the climb."
>>
>
> That's a possibility, but the trail is extremely rocky, so I think the 
> suspension fork allows me to plow through things that a rigid fork might 
> get bounced off-line.  That's why it's worth experimenting.
>

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[RBW] Re: Finding fun in un-un-racing

2016-06-21 Thread Bill Lindsay
The Deacon speculated:
 

>  "I would imagine no suspension will speed the climb."
>

That's a possibility, but the trail is extremely rocky, so I think the 
suspension fork allows me to plow through things that a rigid fork might 
get bounced off-line.  That's why it's worth experimenting.  To dstein's 
point above, this is an extremely un-fun trail to ride.  If 'mountain 
biking' was exclusively that kind of trail, I also would probably never do 
it.  I think of it purely as a benchmark and a fitness test.  

Ironically, when I was doing that ride, the thing that occurred to me was 
Grant's writing about exercise in Eat Bacon, Don't Jog.  He say's exercise 
should be intense and unpleasant.  You should be elated that it's over 
with.  I definitely feel that way about this hill climb.  It sucks!  

Regarding rigid-vs-suspended, I also ponied up for a Niner rigid fork, that 
I haven't set up yet.  When set up full rigid, my Niner is expected to 
weigh just a hair over 21 pounds.  So if I can do the climb in 12 minutes 
on a 24lb suspended mountain bike, how fast will I be on a 21.5lb rigid 
mountain bike, and how fast on a 27pound Atlantis with 2" knobbies?  I have 
no idea how it will shake out.  My guess is that my time will have more to 
do with how I'm performing on a given day, and will actually have very 
little to do with the equipment.  All my kids think that the only thing 
slowing them down is the weight of their bike.  I think they are mistaken

Bill

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[RBW] Re: Finding fun in un-un-racing

2016-06-21 Thread ascpgh
Very true. Stumbled into Mountain Bike Specialists in Durango, CO, having 
wandered over the mountains from Lake City to Silverton then into town from 
the north, my friend in dire need of some truing work on his RockHopper's 
front wheel. The sign at Lake San Cristobal south of Lake City said 
"SIlverton 28 Miles". How could we go wrong for a lunch and back trip? Look 
at a topographic map, we didn't.

In the store (owner Ed Zink was early advertiser in the Fat Tire Flyer), a 
short, slight guy named Ned helped us and was very nice, knew plenty about 
the area trails and complimented us on our Supra24O that brought us to 
town. Only months later did I put it together that it was Ned Overend who 
helped us. 

Trail damage righted and more climbing and descending than we bargained 
for, we headed to Pagosa Springs on the road and east up Wolf Creek Pass 
hoping to make good distance towards Creede before dark. All the good 
fortune collected on that trip to protect us and a westbound truck stopped 
when they recognized us. They gave us a ride back to Creede and asked 
"how'd y'all get all the way to Pagosa to climb Wolf Creek Pass?"

"These bikes." we said.

"Damn. That must've been a hell of a ride." he said.

It was.

Andy Cheatham
Pittsburgh

On Monday, June 20, 2016 at 6:44:12 PM UTC-4, Jan Heine wrote:
>
> Good job! A career change to mountain bike pro may be in order! Or more 
> likely, it's surprising what a lifetime of cycling will give you in skills.
>
> I think what people mostly are reacting to when they identify as 
> "Un-Racers" are the attitudes of racers (or more often, wannabe racers), 
> rather than the fact that pushing yourself a bit can be fun. When we are 
> returning from a long trip in the mountains with panniers on our bikes, and 
> every "racer" on the (flat) bike trail picks us as a target, passing us, 
> and then slowing down exhausted, it gets tiring. 
>
> But that doesn't mean that riding a performance bike isn't fun, and the 
> better the bike performs, the more fun it can be. In fact, I sometimes give 
> in to the temptation and up the pace myself, drop the wannabe racers, and 
> then keep up the pace, if only to get home sooner. Feeling the bike in sync 
> with my pedal strokes and my entire body working hard is fun.
>
> The true high-level racers I've known are usually very pleasant. They 
> don't need to prove to everybody how fast they are – if you want to race, 
> line up at the start line! It's the non-racers who treat every commute as a 
> competition, and every guy (or even better, woman) on a heavily loaded bike 
> as an opportunity.
>
> It's easy to confound "anti-attitude" with "anti-performance", but I think 
> that is a mistake. Cycling is fun in part because of its speed. Otherwise, 
> we could be walking. That doesn't mean that we should prioritize speed over 
> everything else – comfort and fun are more important. But when the gains 
> come without penalties, such as wide supple tires – faster, more 
> comfortable and more puncture-resistant – or frames that get in sync with 
> your pedal strokes ("planing") – lighter, more fun at any power output – 
> then it makes sense to embrace them.
>
> Fortunately, the image of a "performance bike" is changing. No longer is 
> it a harsh-riding machine with skinny tires pumped to 100 psi or more. With 
> the new "Gravel" and "Allroad" bikes, the industry finally is espousing 
> what this group has been about all along.
>
> Jan Heine
> Editor
> Bicycle Quarterly
> www.bikequarterly.com
>

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[RBW] Re: Finding fun in un-un-racing

2016-06-21 Thread Deacon Patrick
That will be fascinating! Let us know. I would imagine no suspension will 
speed the climb.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Tuesday, June 21, 2016 at 2:21:40 PM UTC-6, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> After I've done the hill climb a few times, I'm thinking of tackling it on 
> my FatLantis.  It will be interesting to see the time comparisons.  
>

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[RBW] Re: Finding fun in un-un-racing

2016-06-21 Thread Bill Lindsay
Hi Scott

In order to familiarize myself with the equipment my kids are riding, I 
bought a contemporary mountain bike.  It is a Niner RLT9 Carbon hardtail. 
 It's got a 2x10 drivetrain, a suspension fork, hydraulic disc brakes. 
 After I've done the hill climb a few times, I'm thinking of tackling it on 
my FatLantis.  It will be interesting to see the time comparisons.  

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Tuesday, June 21, 2016 at 1:11:21 PM UTC-7, Scott McLain wrote:
>
> Hi Bill,
> I think it is great that you are serving you community as a volunteer!  So 
> I am just curious... What kind of bike are you riding the hill climb on?
>
> Scott
>
>
> On Monday, June 20, 2016 at 2:08:58 PM UTC-6, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>>
>> Being the team mechanic for the local High School Mountain Bike Racing 
>> team has been pretty inspirational.  Seeing the kids set goals and make 
>> competitive progress has been an almost fountain of youth experience for 
>> this 47 year old un-racer.  At the end of season team party, the head coach 
>> announced the kids one at a time, and among other accomplishments kept 
>> referring to the kids' time in "the time trial".  I didn't know what that 
>> was.  The coach pointed me to a Strava segment, called "BHS Time Trial". 
>>  Here's a link:  https://www.strava.com/segments/1963179
>>
>> So, I went ahead and got my free Strava App on my iPhone and went up into 
>> the Berkeley Hills to check it out.  My goal was to beat the time of our 
>> slightly plump 50-something Coach Gary.  I was told he was in the 14:45 
>> range.  The ride is a short but steep climb, and it is extremely rocky. 
>>  Climbing out of the saddle is completely out of the question and it's a 
>> physical challenge maintaining balance and keeping the bike pointed up the 
>> hill.  My first attempt was last week, the 11th, and I did it in 13:32.  My 
>> second attempt was this weekend, and I did it in 12:16.  I'm told that 
>> 12:00 is the traditional cutoff for the A-Group of racers, so I've got a 
>> measurable training goal.  I'm not racing, but I'm not un-racing either, so 
>> I'm going to call it "un-un-racing".  
>>
>> Bill Lindsay
>> El Cerrito, CA
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Finding fun in un-un-racing

2016-06-21 Thread Scott McLain
Hi Bill,
I think it is great that you are serving you community as a volunteer!  So 
I am just curious... What kind of bike are you riding the hill climb on?

Scott


On Monday, June 20, 2016 at 2:08:58 PM UTC-6, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> Being the team mechanic for the local High School Mountain Bike Racing 
> team has been pretty inspirational.  Seeing the kids set goals and make 
> competitive progress has been an almost fountain of youth experience for 
> this 47 year old un-racer.  At the end of season team party, the head coach 
> announced the kids one at a time, and among other accomplishments kept 
> referring to the kids' time in "the time trial".  I didn't know what that 
> was.  The coach pointed me to a Strava segment, called "BHS Time Trial". 
>  Here's a link:  https://www.strava.com/segments/1963179
>
> So, I went ahead and got my free Strava App on my iPhone and went up into 
> the Berkeley Hills to check it out.  My goal was to beat the time of our 
> slightly plump 50-something Coach Gary.  I was told he was in the 14:45 
> range.  The ride is a short but steep climb, and it is extremely rocky. 
>  Climbing out of the saddle is completely out of the question and it's a 
> physical challenge maintaining balance and keeping the bike pointed up the 
> hill.  My first attempt was last week, the 11th, and I did it in 13:32.  My 
> second attempt was this weekend, and I did it in 12:16.  I'm told that 
> 12:00 is the traditional cutoff for the A-Group of racers, so I've got a 
> measurable training goal.  I'm not racing, but I'm not un-racing either, so 
> I'm going to call it "un-un-racing".  
>
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Finding fun in un-un-racing

2016-06-21 Thread Mark Reimer
Jan, ya nailed it!

I've been racing for the last 6-7 years, and it's been fun, but lately have 
been focusing much more on pushing myself in other ways - longer distance, 
more consecutive days of long distance, extreme cold s24o's, whatever. Just 
new things to challenge myself. And at the same time, I enjoy putting 
around the park on my albatross atlantis with a beer in hand. Point is, you 
don't have to be a "racer" to enjoy pushing yourself. And you also don't 
have to push yourself to enjoy yourself :) 

Today I rode to work an averaged about 15km/h haha. Smelling the flowers. 
Then on Saturday I'm doing a 180km/h trail ride in the rain, followed by 
another 240km of trails over the next two days, camping, and forecast calls 
for a lot of rain. I like to think I'm a balanced human being. 

On Tuesday, June 21, 2016 at 8:18:41 AM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> I agree with Jan, but also with Mark -- but then, I see no real conflict, 
> just 2 different populations. Me, I am a recovering compulsive time trialer 
> who used to turn every commute into a record effort, and as I got older -- 
> into my mid 50s -- that became less and less fun. So, over the last 5-7 
> years I've gradually learned to take it easier (I removed all the 
> computers), and I enjoy riding more. 
>
> But, I still like to ride "energetically", still time myself, and 
> especially -- and this is a key point, I think -- I enjoy the *feel* of a 
> bike optimized, at least to a degree, for efficiency and speed. After all, 
> one of the great pleasures of cycling is, to use my brother's phrase, the 
> sensation of *efficient* motion.
>
> I think that even casual riders will get more pleasure from a relatively 
> efficient bike than from one that, say, is needlessly heavy or that has 
> wooden tires.
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Finding fun in un-un-racing

2016-06-21 Thread Patrick Moore
I agree with Jan, but also with Mark -- but then, I see no real conflict,
just 2 different populations. Me, I am a recovering compulsive time trialer
who used to turn every commute into a record effort, and as I got older --
into my mid 50s -- that became less and less fun. So, over the last 5-7
years I've gradually learned to take it easier (I removed all the
computers), and I enjoy riding more.

But, I still like to ride "energetically", still time myself, and
especially -- and this is a key point, I think -- I enjoy the *feel* of a
bike optimized, at least to a degree, for efficiency and speed. After all,
one of the great pleasures of cycling is, to use my brother's phrase, the
sensation of *efficient* motion.

I think that even casual riders will get more pleasure from a relatively
efficient bike than from one that, say, is needlessly heavy or that has
wooden tires.

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[RBW] Re: Finding fun in un-un-racing

2016-06-21 Thread Philip Kim
Well said, Jan. I agree. I usually "race" my own times on my commute to and 
from work. Though in the morning it's just called "woke up late again, 
pedal harder to get in on time".

On Monday, June 20, 2016 at 6:44:12 PM UTC-4, Jan Heine wrote:
>
> Good job! A career change to mountain bike pro may be in order! Or more 
> likely, it's surprising what a lifetime of cycling will give you in skills.
>
> I think what people mostly are reacting to when they identify as 
> "Un-Racers" are the attitudes of racers (or more often, wannabe racers), 
> rather than the fact that pushing yourself a bit can be fun. When we are 
> returning from a long trip in the mountains with panniers on our bikes, and 
> every "racer" on the (flat) bike trail picks us as a target, passing us, 
> and then slowing down exhausted, it gets tiring. 
>
> But that doesn't mean that riding a performance bike isn't fun, and the 
> better the bike performs, the more fun it can be. In fact, I sometimes give 
> in to the temptation and up the pace myself, drop the wannabe racers, and 
> then keep up the pace, if only to get home sooner. Feeling the bike in sync 
> with my pedal strokes and my entire body working hard is fun.
>
> The true high-level racers I've known are usually very pleasant. They 
> don't need to prove to everybody how fast they are – if you want to race, 
> line up at the start line! It's the non-racers who treat every commute as a 
> competition, and every guy (or even better, woman) on a heavily loaded bike 
> as an opportunity.
>
> It's easy to confound "anti-attitude" with "anti-performance", but I think 
> that is a mistake. Cycling is fun in part because of its speed. Otherwise, 
> we could be walking. That doesn't mean that we should prioritize speed over 
> everything else – comfort and fun are more important. But when the gains 
> come without penalties, such as wide supple tires – faster, more 
> comfortable and more puncture-resistant – or frames that get in sync with 
> your pedal strokes ("planing") – lighter, more fun at any power output – 
> then it makes sense to embrace them.
>
> Fortunately, the image of a "performance bike" is changing. No longer is 
> it a harsh-riding machine with skinny tires pumped to 100 psi or more. With 
> the new "Gravel" and "Allroad" bikes, the industry finally is espousing 
> what this group has been about all along.
>
> Jan Heine
> Editor
> Bicycle Quarterly
> www.bikequarterly.com
>

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[RBW] Re: Finding fun in un-un-racing

2016-06-21 Thread 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch
I think this is true to an extent. But you are in an elite bracket of 
riders, and have obvious innate abilities combined with a keen interest in 
performance maximization as well as fun and comfort. When you say "But when 
the gains come without penalties" it's not like speed is always free. I 
know you've written that many of the equipment performance gains happen in 
the final 5% zone, just like with the motor--ie, training and conditioning 
the body. So there is the literal cost of lightweight frames that plane--to 
get that 5% you are probably going to spend proportionally a lot more 
money. (Ditto supple tires.)

The great majority of cyclists are not interested in performance as defined 
by setting goals, or beating one's times, or racing. Many people use 
bicycles as a means to an end (I know you do, to), and in that capacity can 
have, arguably, just as much fun on a heavier bike not built for maximum 
speed performance, but, for example, for maximum hauling and longevity at a 
price point. And let's remember, speed is often an illusion, which is why 
people on those skinny 100psi tires *think* they are going faster. To go 
faster, I often ride at night. Sure, if all your optimizing gets you an 
extra mile or two an hour, that makes a big difference on a 400k brevet. 
But not so much on a 6-mile commute. Still beats walking by a few hours. 

I have had my share of bicycles oriented to speed performance over the 
years, the latest being a Lyons 650b, purchased after reading your review 
in BQ. I like it. But these days--to be fair partly due to 
circumstances--most of my riding is done on my Rivendell Clementine, which 
is a blast to ride (but doesn't plane and is decidedly *not* fun to carry 
up a couple flights of stairs.) I'm a big fan of Compass tires and I had 
plans to upgrade to Switchbacks but I'm not sure how much I would notice 
after the initial couple of rides--not for the riding I do with this bike, 
anyway. Still, if only to satisfy my curiosity, and because BQ has turned 
me into a bit of a tire snob, I am saving up! 

I don't think it's anti-performance as much as not feeling the need to 
chase every speed optimization. I think the majority of the bicycles in the 
world don't need to be built to plane, and even if they were, this factor 
would go unnoticed by 98% of non-elite, non- "enthusiast" riders. I am 
currently working on a test to prove this statement ;^) 

In any case, most future Compass customers will in all likelihood be 
recruited from the pool of those very same wannabe racers that need to be 
converted to fat tires, not the people who bought the gazillions of 
relatively wide-tired comfort and mountain bikes that sit in the garage 
because they are the equivalent of the majority of home exercise machines, 
which end up functioning as clothes butlers. Those folks will stay in their 
cars to the bitter end.


On Monday, June 20, 2016 at 6:44:12 PM UTC-4, Jan Heine wrote:
>
>
> It's easy to confound "anti-attitude" with "anti-performance", but I think 
> that is a mistake. Cycling is fun in part because of its speed. Otherwise, 
> we could be walking. That doesn't mean that we should prioritize speed over 
> everything else – comfort and fun are more important. But when the gains 
> come without penalties, such as wide supple tires – faster, more 
> comfortable and more puncture-resistant – or frames that get in sync with 
> your pedal strokes ("planing") – lighter, more fun at any power output – 
> then it makes sense to embrace them.
>
> Jan Heine
> Editor
> Bicycle Quarterly
> www.bikequarterly.com
>

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[RBW] Re: Finding fun in un-un-racing

2016-06-20 Thread dstein
Ha! That is literally the first 'mountain bike' ride I went on when I 
briefly owned a salsa el mariachi, except I did the loop all the way around 
seaview and down quarry back to the parking spot where you started. It 
almost completely turned me off mountain biking all together. 3 mtn bikes 
and several trails later I'm still going strong though. I do take my dog on 
that hike all the time though and often think about that first ride and how 
shitty it was. So many loose rocks.

On Monday, June 20, 2016 at 1:08:58 PM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> Being the team mechanic for the local High School Mountain Bike Racing 
> team has been pretty inspirational.  Seeing the kids set goals and make 
> competitive progress has been an almost fountain of youth experience for 
> this 47 year old un-racer.  At the end of season team party, the head coach 
> announced the kids one at a time, and among other accomplishments kept 
> referring to the kids' time in "the time trial".  I didn't know what that 
> was.  The coach pointed me to a Strava segment, called "BHS Time Trial". 
>  Here's a link:  https://www.strava.com/segments/1963179
>
> So, I went ahead and got my free Strava App on my iPhone and went up into 
> the Berkeley Hills to check it out.  My goal was to beat the time of our 
> slightly plump 50-something Coach Gary.  I was told he was in the 14:45 
> range.  The ride is a short but steep climb, and it is extremely rocky. 
>  Climbing out of the saddle is completely out of the question and it's a 
> physical challenge maintaining balance and keeping the bike pointed up the 
> hill.  My first attempt was last week, the 11th, and I did it in 13:32.  My 
> second attempt was this weekend, and I did it in 12:16.  I'm told that 
> 12:00 is the traditional cutoff for the A-Group of racers, so I've got a 
> measurable training goal.  I'm not racing, but I'm not un-racing either, so 
> I'm going to call it "un-un-racing".  
>
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
>

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[RBW] Re: Finding fun in un-un-racing

2016-06-20 Thread Jan Heine
Good job! A career change to mountain bike pro may be in order! Or more 
likely, it's surprising what a lifetime of cycling will give you in skills.

I think what people mostly are reacting to when they identify as 
"Un-Racers" are the attitudes of racers (or more often, wannabe racers), 
rather than the fact that pushing yourself a bit can be fun. When we are 
returning from a long trip in the mountains with panniers on our bikes, and 
every "racer" on the (flat) bike trail picks us as a target, passing us, 
and then slowing down exhausted, it gets tiring. 

But that doesn't mean that riding a performance bike isn't fun, and the 
better the bike performs, the more fun it can be. In fact, I sometimes give 
in to the temptation and up the pace myself, drop the wannabe racers, and 
then keep up the pace, if only to get home sooner. Feeling the bike in sync 
with my pedal strokes and my entire body working hard is fun.

The true high-level racers I've known are usually very pleasant. They don't 
need to prove to everybody how fast they are – if you want to race, line up 
at the start line! It's the non-racers who treat every commute as a 
competition, and every guy (or even better, woman) on a heavily loaded bike 
as an opportunity.

It's easy to confound "anti-attitude" with "anti-performance", but I think 
that is a mistake. Cycling is fun in part because of its speed. Otherwise, 
we could be walking. That doesn't mean that we should prioritize speed over 
everything else – comfort and fun are more important. But when the gains 
come without penalties, such as wide supple tires – faster, more 
comfortable and more puncture-resistant – or frames that get in sync with 
your pedal strokes ("planing") – lighter, more fun at any power output – 
then it makes sense to embrace them.

Fortunately, the image of a "performance bike" is changing. No longer is it 
a harsh-riding machine with skinny tires pumped to 100 psi or more. With 
the new "Gravel" and "Allroad" bikes, the industry finally is espousing 
what this group has been about all along.

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
www.bikequarterly.com

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