Re: [RBW] Re: Jan's Yellow Rivendell

[Christopher Murray]

I'd guess this being Jan's bike added 50% to the selling price ($900-1000 + 
50%). This is based on previous sales I've seen. That said, you could do a lot 
worse for $1400. 

It should build up into a great bike and make someone happy for a long, long 
time. 

Cheers!
Chris

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Re: [RBW] Re: Jan's Yellow Rivendell

[Ryan Fleming]

my 1997 Riv Waterford-built A/R was , I think, 1225 for base price - 1 
colour + 100 for cream head tube + 25.00 for my name. But I could check the 
stud book at home :)

On Friday, August 18, 2017 at 8:43:05 AM UTC-5, Doug Van Cleve wrote:
>
> I wasn't accounting for inflation, and Jan might not have paid much more 
> than that.  My JS built Riv Road Standard was $1225 (or something like 
> that) in '98-'99.  Also, used ≠ new...
>
> Doug
>
> On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 5:56 AM, 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch <
> rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com > wrote:
>
>> Accounting for inflation, $900 in 1995 equals $1,444 in 2017, so unless 
>> Jan paid less than $900 back then, it did not sell for more than he paid 
>> for it. 
>>
>> On Thursday, August 17, 2017 at 4:18:46 PM UTC-4, Doug Van Cleve wrote:
>>>
>>> It depends on your perspective...  Yes, you couldn't buy a new frameset 
>>> built like this one for that amount of moolah.  Very few things increase in 
>>> value though, and it sold for more that Jan paid for it, so I would say it 
>>> was above market value.  I am sure its provenance drove up the cost at 
>>> least a bit, and it has more than the usual number of braze-ons.  BTW, it 
>>> may not be custom from a geometry perspective (don't recall), but Jan chose 
>>> the color and the braze-on combo so it is at least semi-custom IMHO.
>>>
>>> Doug
>>>
>>> P.S.  Most custom bikes are not too different from stock geometries.  I 
>>> don't think there is anything odd about the geometry of the RS Riv that 
>>> is/was for sale, the issue is how much value e-Richie added to it compared 
>>> to any of the other non-Waterford Riv builders.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 9:15 PM, iamkeith  wrote:
>>>
 I guess i don't see how that could be considered a high or artificially 
 driven-up price.  It's still considerably less than any current, lugged 
 production frame - US or otherwise - and,  in near perfect condition, has 
 just as much life left in it.  It's also historically significant and more 
 unique with those lugs and that crown.  On the other hand, in contrast to 
 the Sachs-built frame being discussed concurrently, it doesn't suffer from 
 the baggage of being a custom, and the idea that it was 'too' unique, and 
 built for a specific person.  I guess I understand that some people might 
 think that a used bike should always be obtainable for bargain prices, but 
 not me.  If i was in the market for a road frame and this one fit, I'd 
 choose it over a roadeo in a heartbeat, even at the same price.  Unique is 
 good.
>>>
>>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Jan's Yellow Rivendell

[Doug Van Cleve]

I wasn't accounting for inflation, and Jan might not have paid much more
than that.  My JS built Riv Road Standard was $1225 (or something like
that) in '98-'99.  Also, used ≠ new...

Doug

On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 5:56 AM, 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch <
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> Accounting for inflation, $900 in 1995 equals $1,444 in 2017, so unless
> Jan paid less than $900 back then, it did not sell for more than he paid
> for it.
>
> On Thursday, August 17, 2017 at 4:18:46 PM UTC-4, Doug Van Cleve wrote:
>>
>> It depends on your perspective...  Yes, you couldn't buy a new frameset
>> built like this one for that amount of moolah.  Very few things increase in
>> value though, and it sold for more that Jan paid for it, so I would say it
>> was above market value.  I am sure its provenance drove up the cost at
>> least a bit, and it has more than the usual number of braze-ons.  BTW, it
>> may not be custom from a geometry perspective (don't recall), but Jan chose
>> the color and the braze-on combo so it is at least semi-custom IMHO.
>>
>> Doug
>>
>> P.S.  Most custom bikes are not too different from stock geometries.  I
>> don't think there is anything odd about the geometry of the RS Riv that
>> is/was for sale, the issue is how much value e-Richie added to it compared
>> to any of the other non-Waterford Riv builders.
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 9:15 PM, iamkeith  wrote:
>>
>>> I guess i don't see how that could be considered a high or artificially
>>> driven-up price.  It's still considerably less than any current, lugged
>>> production frame - US or otherwise - and,  in near perfect condition, has
>>> just as much life left in it.  It's also historically significant and more
>>> unique with those lugs and that crown.  On the other hand, in contrast to
>>> the Sachs-built frame being discussed concurrently, it doesn't suffer from
>>> the baggage of being a custom, and the idea that it was 'too' unique, and
>>> built for a specific person.  I guess I understand that some people might
>>> think that a used bike should always be obtainable for bargain prices, but
>>> not me.  If i was in the market for a road frame and this one fit, I'd
>>> choose it over a roadeo in a heartbeat, even at the same price.  Unique is
>>> good.
>>
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Jan's Yellow Rivendell

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Accounting for inflation, $900 in 1995 equals $1,444 in 2017, so unless Jan 
paid less than $900 back then, it did not sell for more than he paid for 
it. 

On Thursday, August 17, 2017 at 4:18:46 PM UTC-4, Doug Van Cleve wrote:
>
> It depends on your perspective...  Yes, you couldn't buy a new frameset 
> built like this one for that amount of moolah.  Very few things increase in 
> value though, and it sold for more that Jan paid for it, so I would say it 
> was above market value.  I am sure its provenance drove up the cost at 
> least a bit, and it has more than the usual number of braze-ons.  BTW, it 
> may not be custom from a geometry perspective (don't recall), but Jan chose 
> the color and the braze-on combo so it is at least semi-custom IMHO.
>
> Doug
>
> P.S.  Most custom bikes are not too different from stock geometries.  I 
> don't think there is anything odd about the geometry of the RS Riv that 
> is/was for sale, the issue is how much value e-Richie added to it compared 
> to any of the other non-Waterford Riv builders.
>
> On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 9:15 PM, iamkeith  > wrote:
>
>> I guess i don't see how that could be considered a high or artificially 
>> driven-up price.  It's still considerably less than any current, lugged 
>> production frame - US or otherwise - and,  in near perfect condition, has 
>> just as much life left in it.  It's also historically significant and more 
>> unique with those lugs and that crown.  On the other hand, in contrast to 
>> the Sachs-built frame being discussed concurrently, it doesn't suffer from 
>> the baggage of being a custom, and the idea that it was 'too' unique, and 
>> built for a specific person.  I guess I understand that some people might 
>> think that a used bike should always be obtainable for bargain prices, but 
>> not me.  If i was in the market for a road frame and this one fit, I'd 
>> choose it over a roadeo in a heartbeat, even at the same price.  Unique is 
>> good.
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Jan's Yellow Rivendell

[Doug Van Cleve]

It depends on your perspective...  Yes, you couldn't buy a new frameset
built like this one for that amount of moolah.  Very few things increase in
value though, and it sold for more that Jan paid for it, so I would say it
was above market value.  I am sure its provenance drove up the cost at
least a bit, and it has more than the usual number of braze-ons.  BTW, it
may not be custom from a geometry perspective (don't recall), but Jan chose
the color and the braze-on combo so it is at least semi-custom IMHO.

Doug

P.S.  Most custom bikes are not too different from stock geometries.  I
don't think there is anything odd about the geometry of the RS Riv that
is/was for sale, the issue is how much value e-Richie added to it compared
to any of the other non-Waterford Riv builders.

On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 9:15 PM, iamkeith  wrote:

> I guess i don't see how that could be considered a high or artificially
> driven-up price.  It's still considerably less than any current, lugged
> production frame - US or otherwise - and,  in near perfect condition, has
> just as much life left in it.  It's also historically significant and more
> unique with those lugs and that crown.  On the other hand, in contrast to
> the Sachs-built frame being discussed concurrently, it doesn't suffer from
> the baggage of being a custom, and the idea that it was 'too' unique, and
> built for a specific person.  I guess I understand that some people might
> think that a used bike should always be obtainable for bargain prices, but
> not me.  If i was in the market for a road frame and this one fit, I'd
> choose it over a roadeo in a heartbeat, even at the same price.  Unique is
> good.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Jan's Yellow Rivendell

[Joe Bunik]

ha! yes, I forgot about that book!!! Not sure if that was the trigger
for my thought or what.

But is there such a concept (say, parallel to wabi-sabi), but for
historical presence?

On 8/17/17, George Cline  wrote:
> Historicity? I don't think it's Japanese, but it did feature prominently in
> Phillip K. Dick's "The Man in the High Castle."
>
> George in NoCal
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Jan's Yellow Rivendell

[George Cline]

Historicity? I don't think it's Japanese, but it did feature prominently in 
Phillip K. Dick's "The Man in the High Castle."

George in NoCal

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[RBW] Re: Jan's Yellow Rivendell

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Yes, on any given day, the auction market can vary. However, I would say 
generally when you have a very special frameset,you will leave money on the 
table one way or another if you sell it as a complete bicycle. But again, 
Jan having advertised it on his blog, then having it reposted, certainly 
does not hurt.


On Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 10:55:17 AM UTC-4, rw1911 wrote:
>
> Jan did very well for himself.  I submit 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/112439926538 where the buyer got a very nice 
> build for a true steal of a price. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Jan's Yellow Rivendell

[Joe Bunik]

On 8/16/17, 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch
 wrote:
> ...
> certain objects have a presence, a quality that is apparent, and seems to 
> gain in this
> quality over time.
> ...

Isn't there a Japanese word for exactly this phenomena? Please,
someone - I am digging around now to find this term!

=- Joe Bunik
Walnut Creek, CA

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Re: [RBW] Re: Jan's Yellow Rivendell

[Ryan Fleming]

Probably not unreasonable...nice yellow colour and I bet it was well looked 
after

On Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 10:58:40 AM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> Thanks. There was a much earlier article in BQ or VBQ in which Jan 
> compared his Riv to his later bikes and described his changing tastes; wish 
> I could find that, since it contrasted Riv geometry with that which Jan is 
> now associated with. (For the record, I prefer the Riv geometry, as far as 
> I know about the other kind.)
>
> FWIW, $14,26 seems to me to be a very good price for this frameset. 
>
> On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 8:33 PM, christian poppell  > wrote:
>
>> $1,426.00
>>
>> Link to Jan's blog entry about Rivendell: 
>> https://janheine.wordpress.com/2017/07/22/1995-rivendell-turning-the-tide/
>>
>> Link to ebay listing: http://m.ebay.com/itm/232420852275?_mwBanner=1
>>
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>
>
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Jan's Yellow Rivendell

[Eric Norris]

If anyone wants to know when *not* to sell a bike, let me know. I have terrible 
timing.

P.S. If anyone’s interested in a 1972 Cinelli Speciale Corsa, repainted by Joe 
Bell and restored to near-show condition, let me know. I’m selling mine.

--Eric N
www.CampyOnly.com
CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com
Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy

> On Aug 16, 2017, at 9:27 AM, iamkeith  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 8:55:17 AM UTC-6, rw1911 wrote:
>> Jan did very well for himself.  I submit 
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/112439926538 where the buyer got a very nice build 
>> for a true steal of a price.
> 
> Agree - that's a screaming deal.  I kind of wish I'd seen that one and could 
> have bought it as an upgrade to my RB-1 - even though I have almost zero need 
> for a true go-fast road bike.  
> 
> And then there was Eric's recent sale, too:
> 
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rbw-owners-bunch/road$20fs%7Csort:relevance/rbw-owners-bunch/C_k1NJ2im1s/Dcm3KOg4AAAJ
> 
> I really don't understand the market.  With deals like these seeming to come 
> up regularly, even if not the norm,  I don't see how models like the roadini 
> - let alone the roadeo - still sell.  Except that they are available when the 
> buyer wants them.  Don't get me wrong - I'm glad they do.  I suppose the 
> roadini also reflects some evolved Rivendell design principles like longer 
> chainstays, but those are pretty subtle compared to the differences from most 
> other non-riv offerings. 
> 
> Maybe  more people have a general bias toward un-used things than I believe.  
> Or maybe the limited pool of  likely buyers - like those in this group - is 
> the exact same pool of buyers who also have a strong bias toward fatter tires 
> than these old frames will accommodate?  
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[RBW] Re: Jan's Yellow Rivendell

[iamkeith]

On Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 8:55:17 AM UTC-6, rw1911 wrote:
>
> Jan did very well for himself.  I submit 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/112439926538 where the buyer got a very nice 
> build for a true steal of a price.


Agree - that's a screaming deal.  I kind of wish I'd seen that one and 
could have bought it as an upgrade to my RB-1 - even though I have almost 
zero need for a true go-fast road bike.  

And then there was Eric's recent sale, too:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rbw-owners-bunch/road$20fs%7Csort:relevance/rbw-owners-bunch/C_k1NJ2im1s/Dcm3KOg4AAAJ

I really don't understand the market.  With deals like these seeming to 
come up regularly, even if not the norm,  I don't see how models like the 
roadini - let alone the roadeo - still sell.  Except that they are 
available when the buyer wants them.  Don't get me wrong - I'm glad they 
do.  I suppose the roadini also reflects some evolved Rivendell design 
principles like longer chainstays, but those are pretty subtle compared to 
the differences from most other non-riv offerings. 

Maybe  more people have a general bias toward un-used things than I 
believe.  Or maybe the limited pool of  likely buyers - like those in this 
group - is the exact same pool of buyers who also have a strong bias toward 
fatter tires than these old frames will accommodate?  

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Re: [RBW] Re: Jan's Yellow Rivendell

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks. There was a much earlier article in BQ or VBQ in which Jan compared
his Riv to his later bikes and described his changing tastes; wish I could
find that, since it contrasted Riv geometry with that which Jan is now
associated with. (For the record, I prefer the Riv geometry, as far as I
know about the other kind.)

FWIW, $14,26 seems to me to be a very good price for this frameset.

On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 8:33 PM, christian poppell 
wrote:

> $1,426.00
>
> Link to Jan's blog entry about Rivendell: https://janheine.wordpress.
> com/2017/07/22/1995-rivendell-turning-the-tide/
>
> Link to ebay listing: http://m.ebay.com/itm/232420852275?_mwBanner=1
>
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[RBW] Re: Jan's Yellow Rivendell

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

(Yes, unique can be good. But technically it can't be more unique, or too 
unique;^)
Grammar aside, I agree the bike was worth the final selling price. The fact 
that Jan Heine was the seller might have helped generate interest and could 
have played into how people decided to bid, but even without that special 
sauce, this bicycle, in auction-speak, is certainly "rare and good." Having 
been in and out of the business of selling used goods for the last couple 
of decades, certain objects have a presence, a quality that is apparent, 
and seems to gain in this quality over time. Even though I mentioned my 
Ritchey Logic as being a "similar" yellow, there is no comparison with the 
lustrous finish on the Rivendell. Not to mention the lugs, the tubing, the 
details, that headbadge, etc. Really quite the bargain at that price. I 
think the buyer will probably feel that way more and more as time goes on, 
and one or two of the underbidders may be kicking themselves a bit.  I'll 
guess it would have gone higher if it were slightly smaller, say 57-60cm.

*For  comparison, here is another "rare and good" frame made of Reynolds 
753 that sold on eBay two weeks later for $40 more than the Rivendell (and 
it was a repaint, which technically should lower the value, though in this 
case I suspect it contributed to a higher final price):*

*http://tinyurl.com/y7xqy2et* 



On Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 12:15:10 AM UTC-4, iamkeith wrote:
>
> I guess i don't see how that could be considered a high or artificially 
> driven-up price.  It's still considerably less than any current, lugged 
> production frame - US or otherwise - and,  in near perfect condition, has 
> just as much life left in it.  It's also historically significant and more 
> unique with those lugs and that crown.  On the other hand, in contrast to 
> the Sachs-built frame being discussed concurrently, it doesn't suffer from 
> the baggage of being a custom, and the idea that it was 'too' unique, and 
> built for a specific person.  I guess I understand that some people might 
> think that a used bike should always be obtainable for bargain prices, but 
> not me.  If i was in the market for a road frame and this one fit, I'd 
> choose it over a roadeo in a heartbeat, even at the same price.  Unique is 
> good.

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[RBW] Re: Jan's Yellow Rivendell

[iamkeith]

I guess i don't see how that could be considered a high or artificially 
driven-up price.  It's still considerably less than any current, lugged 
production frame - US or otherwise - and,  in near perfect condition, has just 
as much life left in it.  It's also historically significant and more unique 
with those lugs and that crown.  On the other hand, in contrast to the 
Sachs-built frame being discussed concurrently, it doesn't suffer from the 
baggage of being a custom, and the idea that it was 'too' unique, and built for 
a specific person.  I guess I understand that some people might think that a 
used bike should always be obtainable for bargain prices, but not me.  If i was 
in the market for a road frame and this one fit, I'd choose it over a roadeo in 
a heartbeat, even at the same price.  Unique is good.

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[RBW] Re: Jan's Yellow Rivendell

[christian poppell]

$1,426.00

Link to Jan's blog entry about Rivendell: 
https://janheine.wordpress.com/2017/07/22/1995-rivendell-turning-the-tide/

Link to ebay listing: http://m.ebay.com/itm/232420852275?_mwBanner=1

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[RBW] Re: Jan's Yellow Rivendell

[Mattt]

The final price was about $1,500.

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[RBW] Re: Jan's Yellow Rivendell

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

What was the final hammer price? I agree, a fun color. I had a 1997 or 98 
Ritchey Road Logic in a very similar shade of yellow.

On Tuesday, August 15, 2017 at 8:27:11 PM UTC-4, christian poppell wrote:
>
> Who got it? Anyone on here? Great color! Anyone else think that the 
> pedigree of the owner drove the price up a little bit?
>
>
>
> 
>

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