[RBW] Re: PSA: Do NOT buy a Rivendell bicycle with a Lift-a-tube

[Philip Williamson]

Time to up your stick game. 
The mental image of a perfectly coved deadfall limb liftastick is pretty 
amusing. At that point you sand the paint off in two spots and epoxy it to 
the tubes. 

Philip
www.biketinker.com 


On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 3:41:23 PM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> Authenticity is in the eye of the beholder, of course.  I practically 
> never build anything out of a stick.  I often build things from wood, 
> plastic, metal.  Almost never a stick.  I'm the son of a machinist.  
>
> On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 3:15:45 PM UTC-8, dougP wrote:
>>
>> Bill:
>>
>> PLASTIC PIPE?  Really?  For authenticity, needs to be real wood, 
>> preferably a stick one has salvaged from deadfall, recently removed from 
>> the bike lane.  
>>
>> dougP
>>
>> On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 12:46:17 PM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>>>
>>> I think having the handle be both rigid itself and rigidly attached to 
>>> the downtube and seat tube are important.  
>>>
>>> If I was going to try for a DIY solution, I would use a short length of 
>>> PVC pipe.  I would
>>>
>>> 1.  Pick where the lift-a-tube will attach to the seat tube and 
>>> downtube.  
>>> 2.  Wrap both those areas with Newbaums or equivalent.  A couple layers 
>>> thick.  This protects the frame tubes and provides a soft-ish landing spot 
>>> for the liftatube to 'bite into'
>>> 3.  Cut a length of PVC pipe to fit.  By 'to fit', i mean a few inches 
>>> too long.  I'd probably use 1/2" or 3/4" PVC because the O.D. of both of 
>>> those will be smaller than the frame tubes.
>>> 4.  With saws and files, mitre the PVC to fit flush on the frame tubes. 
>>>  The final position you are going for is completely horizontal.  
>>> 5.  I'd drill s couple holes so that I could strap each end around its 
>>> frame tube with two zip ties in an "X" configuration.  
>>> 6.  Bob's your uncle 
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 12:32:52 PM UTC-8, islaysteve wrote:

 Well, Bill's review has really got me thinking about getting/making a 
 strap handle like the one Jeremy linked to.  I don't commute, but do carry 
 the bike up/down half a flight for every ride, a full flight if I want to 
 work on it in the basement. The shop Jeremy linked to is "on break", so 
 I'd 
 have to find another source.  Seems like something Riv should sell, I bet 
 the bag makers could make them.  Anyway, thanks Bill for the insight!
>>>
>>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: Do NOT buy a Rivendell bicycle with a Lift-a-tube

[Bill Lindsay]

Tim, I gave you the easy way out.  Just make sure to never try a 
lift-a-tube bike and you'll never have a problem.  

:-P

On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 7:31:19 PM UTC-8, Tim wrote:
>
> Curses, Bill Lindsay!!! Just when I thought that the tandem would satisfy 
> my Riv needs for, perhaps, 2-4 more years, you casually drop this bomb on 
> me. Now that I am back in KC, and living in a new house, I have to, for 
> every freaking ride of every freaking bike, come up the rock steps from the 
> walk-out basement. This is not so bad in the winter because the freaking 
> hydrangeas are dormant and thus, leaving enough room to roll up the hill 
> alongside the steps. Once the hydrangeas bloom they will cover the ground 
> next to the stone steps, and I will, of course, have my butt royally chewed 
> out if I roll atop said spreading hydrangeas. So...the only choice here is 
> for a Rosco lift-a-tube. Oh, and also, now I have to retrofit the Hilsen, 
> Roadeo and Hunq with lift-a-tubes as well. Bill, from now on, I beg of you, 
> please yield the power of your reviews wisely :=) This is only partially, 
> and I do mean partially, tongue in cheek. I really want a lift-a-tube now...

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Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: Do NOT buy a Rivendell bicycle with a Lift-a-tube

[Philip Kim]

i have their leather lift handle. works great! 

On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 4:33:49 PM UTC-5, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Wow, I'm gonna spend WAY too much money at Walnut. Check out this barrel 
> bag..wood sides!
>
>
> https://walnutstudiolo.com/collections/bicycle-commuter-essentials/products/bicycle-seat-barrel-bag
>  
> 
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: Do NOT buy a Rivendell bicycle with a Lift-a-tube

[Jon BALER]

My rosco bubbe v2 has the upper tube, and find it useful as well for carrying 
the bike. I have a partial framebag, so the extra tube gives me a rigid tube to 
pick it up with or hang it on my trunk rack.

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Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: Do NOT buy a Rivendell bicycle with a Lift-a-tube

['Tim' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Curses, Bill Lindsay!!! Just when I thought that the tandem would satisfy my 
Riv needs for, perhaps, 2-4 more years, you casually drop this bomb on me. Now 
that I am back in KC, and living in a new house, I have to, for every freaking 
ride of every freaking bike, come up the rock steps from the walk-out basement. 
This is not so bad in the winter because the freaking hydrangeas are dormant 
and thus, leaving enough room to roll up the hill alongside the steps. Once the 
hydrangeas bloom they will cover the ground next to the stone steps, and I 
will, of course, have my butt royally chewed out if I roll atop said spreading 
hydrangeas. So...the only choice here is for a Rosco lift-a-tube. Oh, and also, 
now I have to retrofit the Hilsen, Roadeo and Hunq with lift-a-tubes as well. 
Bill, from now on, I beg of you, please yield the power of your reviews wisely 
:=) This is only partially, and I do mean partially, tongue in cheek. I really 
want a lift-a-tube now...

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[RBW] Re: PSA: Do NOT buy a Rivendell bicycle with a Lift-a-tube

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

It certainly seems like it would be handy for diamond frames and mixtes, 
but my Clementine doesn't need one, as the top bar *is* the lift a tube. 
And ergonomically curved. I will say that for steeper stairs, going down 
presents a problem even for lift a tubes and Clementines, because the back 
wheel wants to catch the top of the riser and push you along. When going 
down the steps in my apartment building, I hold the stem at the headset 
juncture with my left hand and grab the chainstay with my right hand . This 
puts the bike at an angle similar to the stairs, and the back wheel clears. 
The weight is also distributed nicely when the bike is held like this (but 
any way you slice it, hefting the Clementine is a workout.)

On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 2:47:54 PM UTC-5, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> Sorry for the provocative title, it's sarcastic.  Here's the punchline 
> content:
>
> If you carry bikes up and down stairs frequently, you might be tempted to 
> buy one of the Rosco Bubbe frames with a Lift-a-tube.  I was tempted like 
> you, and I bought one.  I've commuted with it for a couple weeks, and now I 
> can report that you should not buy one.because it will make you hate 
> how lame and stupid all your other bikes are when it comes to portaging up 
> and down stairs.  
>
> I've had to use a different bike as my BART bike the last two days, and 
> carrying it up and down BART stairs in the past was "fine".  It was "not a 
> big problem".  Now that I'm conditioned to the excellence of the 
> lift-a-tube, carrying a normal bike up the stairs is like an inhuman 
> torture device.  I'm telling you, if you think it's fine carrying your bike 
> up stairs or down stairs, then DO NOT try a lift-a-tube bike, because it 
> will ruin you.  Remain in the bliss of your ignorance.  
>
> Seriously though, using a different bike made it sink in just how awesome 
> the lift-a-tube is.  If you never carry a bike up or down stairs, you don't 
> need a lift-a-tube.  If the bike you carry up and down stairs is stripped 
> down, light weight and uncluttered so it's easy to shoulder, then you 
> probably don't need a lift-a-tube.  The liftatube is fabulous for everybody 
> else, and I'm now in a state where I probably won't use most of my other 
> bikes as BART bikes, because I'm spoiled by the lift-a-tube.  If you have a 
> bunch of bikes and don't want to be similarly spoiled, don't try a 
> lift-a-tube bike.  
>
> You're welcome
>
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: PSA: Do NOT buy a Rivendell bicycle with a Lift-a-tube

[Austin ^]

Walnut studiolo also makes a portage strap for throwing a bike on your 
shoulder in comfort, similarly nice to the strap handle but for a different 
carry configuration. They're lovely people too! 

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[RBW] Re: PSA: Do NOT buy a Rivendell bicycle with a Lift-a-tube

[Surlyprof]

I was able to wiggle a dowel rod into the leather handle of a briefcase.  Made 
the handle much more comfortable without altering the aesthetics.  Don't 
remember if that was possible on the handle from Walnut Studios.

John

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[RBW] Re: PSA: Do NOT buy a Rivendell bicycle with a Lift-a-tube

[Joe Bernard]

It was on the Blug. I seem to recall a couple variations, one of which included 
duct tape. Duct tape!

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[RBW] Re: PSA: Do NOT buy a Rivendell bicycle with a Lift-a-tube

[Bill Lindsay]

Authenticity is in the eye of the beholder, of course.  I practically never 
build anything out of a stick.  I often build things from wood, plastic, 
metal.  Almost never a stick.  I'm the son of a machinist.  

On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 3:15:45 PM UTC-8, dougP wrote:
>
> Bill:
>
> PLASTIC PIPE?  Really?  For authenticity, needs to be real wood, 
> preferably a stick one has salvaged from deadfall, recently removed from 
> the bike lane.  
>
> dougP
>
> On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 12:46:17 PM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>>
>> I think having the handle be both rigid itself and rigidly attached to 
>> the downtube and seat tube are important.  
>>
>> If I was going to try for a DIY solution, I would use a short length of 
>> PVC pipe.  I would
>>
>> 1.  Pick where the lift-a-tube will attach to the seat tube and downtube. 
>>  
>> 2.  Wrap both those areas with Newbaums or equivalent.  A couple layers 
>> thick.  This protects the frame tubes and provides a soft-ish landing spot 
>> for the liftatube to 'bite into'
>> 3.  Cut a length of PVC pipe to fit.  By 'to fit', i mean a few inches 
>> too long.  I'd probably use 1/2" or 3/4" PVC because the O.D. of both of 
>> those will be smaller than the frame tubes.
>> 4.  With saws and files, mitre the PVC to fit flush on the frame tubes. 
>>  The final position you are going for is completely horizontal.  
>> 5.  I'd drill s couple holes so that I could strap each end around its 
>> frame tube with two zip ties in an "X" configuration.  
>> 6.  Bob's your uncle 
>>
>> On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 12:32:52 PM UTC-8, islaysteve wrote:
>>>
>>> Well, Bill's review has really got me thinking about getting/making a 
>>> strap handle like the one Jeremy linked to.  I don't commute, but do carry 
>>> the bike up/down half a flight for every ride, a full flight if I want to 
>>> work on it in the basement. The shop Jeremy linked to is "on break", so I'd 
>>> have to find another source.  Seems like something Riv should sell, I bet 
>>> the bag makers could make them.  Anyway, thanks Bill for the insight!
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: PSA: Do NOT buy a Rivendell bicycle with a Lift-a-tube

[dougP]

Bill:

PLASTIC PIPE?  Really?  For authenticity, needs to be real wood, preferably 
a stick one has salvaged from deadfall, recently removed from the bike 
lane.  

dougP

On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 12:46:17 PM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> I think having the handle be both rigid itself and rigidly attached to the 
> downtube and seat tube are important.  
>
> If I was going to try for a DIY solution, I would use a short length of 
> PVC pipe.  I would
>
> 1.  Pick where the lift-a-tube will attach to the seat tube and downtube.  
> 2.  Wrap both those areas with Newbaums or equivalent.  A couple layers 
> thick.  This protects the frame tubes and provides a soft-ish landing spot 
> for the liftatube to 'bite into'
> 3.  Cut a length of PVC pipe to fit.  By 'to fit', i mean a few inches too 
> long.  I'd probably use 1/2" or 3/4" PVC because the O.D. of both of those 
> will be smaller than the frame tubes.
> 4.  With saws and files, mitre the PVC to fit flush on the frame tubes. 
>  The final position you are going for is completely horizontal.  
> 5.  I'd drill s couple holes so that I could strap each end around its 
> frame tube with two zip ties in an "X" configuration.  
> 6.  Bob's your uncle 
>
> On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 12:32:52 PM UTC-8, islaysteve wrote:
>>
>> Well, Bill's review has really got me thinking about getting/making a 
>> strap handle like the one Jeremy linked to.  I don't commute, but do carry 
>> the bike up/down half a flight for every ride, a full flight if I want to 
>> work on it in the basement. The shop Jeremy linked to is "on break", so I'd 
>> have to find another source.  Seems like something Riv should sell, I bet 
>> the bag makers could make them.  Anyway, thanks Bill for the insight!
>
>

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[RBW] Re: PSA: Do NOT buy a Rivendell bicycle with a Lift-a-tube

[dougP]

I've got a recollection of something in a Reader about a rope strap for 
this purpose.  Seems like some interesting weaving or knot work was 
involved.  Maybe it was here?  

dougP

On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 11:47:54 AM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> Sorry for the provocative title, it's sarcastic.  Here's the punchline 
> content:
>
> If you carry bikes up and down stairs frequently, you might be tempted to 
> buy one of the Rosco Bubbe frames with a Lift-a-tube.  I was tempted like 
> you, and I bought one.  I've commuted with it for a couple weeks, and now I 
> can report that you should not buy one.because it will make you hate 
> how lame and stupid all your other bikes are when it comes to portaging up 
> and down stairs.  
>
> I've had to use a different bike as my BART bike the last two days, and 
> carrying it up and down BART stairs in the past was "fine".  It was "not a 
> big problem".  Now that I'm conditioned to the excellence of the 
> lift-a-tube, carrying a normal bike up the stairs is like an inhuman 
> torture device.  I'm telling you, if you think it's fine carrying your bike 
> up stairs or down stairs, then DO NOT try a lift-a-tube bike, because it 
> will ruin you.  Remain in the bliss of your ignorance.  
>
> Seriously though, using a different bike made it sink in just how awesome 
> the lift-a-tube is.  If you never carry a bike up or down stairs, you don't 
> need a lift-a-tube.  If the bike you carry up and down stairs is stripped 
> down, light weight and uncluttered so it's easy to shoulder, then you 
> probably don't need a lift-a-tube.  The liftatube is fabulous for everybody 
> else, and I'm now in a state where I probably won't use most of my other 
> bikes as BART bikes, because I'm spoiled by the lift-a-tube.  If you have a 
> bunch of bikes and don't want to be similarly spoiled, don't try a 
> lift-a-tube bike.  
>
> You're welcome
>
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: PSA: Do NOT buy a Rivendell bicycle with a Lift-a-tube

[Ron Mc]

and after all that, he didn't post photos

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[RBW] Re: PSA: Do NOT buy a Rivendell bicycle with a Lift-a-tube

[Ryan Fleming]

Crap...my mixte doesn't have that ...just joking

On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 1:47:54 PM UTC-6, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> Sorry for the provocative title, it's sarcastic.  Here's the punchline 
> content:
>
> If you carry bikes up and down stairs frequently, you might be tempted to 
> buy one of the Rosco Bubbe frames with a Lift-a-tube.  I was tempted like 
> you, and I bought one.  I've commuted with it for a couple weeks, and now I 
> can report that you should not buy one.because it will make you hate 
> how lame and stupid all your other bikes are when it comes to portaging up 
> and down stairs.  
>
> I've had to use a different bike as my BART bike the last two days, and 
> carrying it up and down BART stairs in the past was "fine".  It was "not a 
> big problem".  Now that I'm conditioned to the excellence of the 
> lift-a-tube, carrying a normal bike up the stairs is like an inhuman 
> torture device.  I'm telling you, if you think it's fine carrying your bike 
> up stairs or down stairs, then DO NOT try a lift-a-tube bike, because it 
> will ruin you.  Remain in the bliss of your ignorance.  
>
> Seriously though, using a different bike made it sink in just how awesome 
> the lift-a-tube is.  If you never carry a bike up or down stairs, you don't 
> need a lift-a-tube.  If the bike you carry up and down stairs is stripped 
> down, light weight and uncluttered so it's easy to shoulder, then you 
> probably don't need a lift-a-tube.  The liftatube is fabulous for everybody 
> else, and I'm now in a state where I probably won't use most of my other 
> bikes as BART bikes, because I'm spoiled by the lift-a-tube.  If you have a 
> bunch of bikes and don't want to be similarly spoiled, don't try a 
> lift-a-tube bike.  
>
> You're welcome
>
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: Do NOT buy a Rivendell bicycle with a Lift-a-tube

[Joe Bernard]

Wow, I'm gonna spend WAY too much money at Walnut. Check out this barrel 
bag..wood sides!

https://walnutstudiolo.com/collections/bicycle-commuter-essentials/products/bicycle-seat-barrel-bag

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[RBW] Re: PSA: Do NOT buy a Rivendell bicycle with a Lift-a-tube

[Bill Lindsay]

I think having the handle be both rigid itself and rigidly attached to the 
downtube and seat tube are important.  

If I was going to try for a DIY solution, I would use a short length of PVC 
pipe.  I would

1.  Pick where the lift-a-tube will attach to the seat tube and downtube.  
2.  Wrap both those areas with Newbaums or equivalent.  A couple layers 
thick.  This protects the frame tubes and provides a soft-ish landing spot 
for the liftatube to 'bite into'
3.  Cut a length of PVC pipe to fit.  By 'to fit', i mean a few inches too 
long.  I'd probably use 1/2" or 3/4" PVC because the O.D. of both of those 
will be smaller than the frame tubes.
4.  With saws and files, mitre the PVC to fit flush on the frame tubes. 
 The final position you are going for is completely horizontal.  
5.  I'd drill s couple holes so that I could strap each end around its 
frame tube with two zip ties in an "X" configuration.  
6.  Bob's your uncle 

On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 12:32:52 PM UTC-8, islaysteve wrote:
>
> Well, Bill's review has really got me thinking about getting/making a 
> strap handle like the one Jeremy linked to.  I don't commute, but do carry 
> the bike up/down half a flight for every ride, a full flight if I want to 
> work on it in the basement. The shop Jeremy linked to is "on break", so I'd 
> have to find another source.  Seems like something Riv should sell, I bet 
> the bag makers could make them.  Anyway, thanks Bill for the insight!

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[RBW] Re: PSA: Do NOT buy a Rivendell bicycle with a Lift-a-tube

[Joe Bernard]

If you scroll down that page you'll see listings for other handle sellers. 
Faraday Electric Bikes has them, too. 

https://www.faradaybikes.com/product/walnut-little-lifter/

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Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: Do NOT buy a Rivendell bicycle with a Lift-a-tube

[Dan McNamara]

Walnut Studio has a leather lift handle called Little Lifter. They did a 
Kickstarter for it a few years back. 

https://walnutstudiolo.com/products/bicycle-frame-handle-the-little-lifter

Dan

> On Jan 17, 2017, at 12:32 PM, islaysteve  wrote:
> 
> Well, Bill's review has really got me thinking about getting/making a strap 
> handle like the one Jeremy linked to.  I don't commute, but do carry the bike 
> up/down half a flight for every ride, a full flight if I want to work on it 
> in the basement. The shop Jeremy linked to is "on break", so I'd have to find 
> another source.  Seems like something Riv should sell, I bet the bag makers 
> could make them.  Anyway, thanks Bill for the insight!
> 
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[RBW] Re: PSA: Do NOT buy a Rivendell bicycle with a Lift-a-tube

[islaysteve]

Well, Bill's review has really got me thinking about getting/making a strap 
handle like the one Jeremy linked to.  I don't commute, but do carry the bike 
up/down half a flight for every ride, a full flight if I want to work on it in 
the basement. The shop Jeremy linked to is "on break", so I'd have to find 
another source.  Seems like something Riv should sell, I bet the bag makers 
could make them.  Anyway, thanks Bill for the insight!

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[RBW] Re: PSA: Do NOT buy a Rivendell bicycle with a Lift-a-tube

[dstein]

As a recent lift-a-tube rosco bubbe buyer, you damn near gave me a heart 
attack with that title.

On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 11:47:54 AM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> Sorry for the provocative title, it's sarcastic.  Here's the punchline 
> content:
>
> If you carry bikes up and down stairs frequently, you might be tempted to 
> buy one of the Rosco Bubbe frames with a Lift-a-tube.  I was tempted like 
> you, and I bought one.  I've commuted with it for a couple weeks, and now I 
> can report that you should not buy one.because it will make you hate 
> how lame and stupid all your other bikes are when it comes to portaging up 
> and down stairs.  
>
> I've had to use a different bike as my BART bike the last two days, and 
> carrying it up and down BART stairs in the past was "fine".  It was "not a 
> big problem".  Now that I'm conditioned to the excellence of the 
> lift-a-tube, carrying a normal bike up the stairs is like an inhuman 
> torture device.  I'm telling you, if you think it's fine carrying your bike 
> up stairs or down stairs, then DO NOT try a lift-a-tube bike, because it 
> will ruin you.  Remain in the bliss of your ignorance.  
>
> Seriously though, using a different bike made it sink in just how awesome 
> the lift-a-tube is.  If you never carry a bike up or down stairs, you don't 
> need a lift-a-tube.  If the bike you carry up and down stairs is stripped 
> down, light weight and uncluttered so it's easy to shoulder, then you 
> probably don't need a lift-a-tube.  The liftatube is fabulous for everybody 
> else, and I'm now in a state where I probably won't use most of my other 
> bikes as BART bikes, because I'm spoiled by the lift-a-tube.  If you have a 
> bunch of bikes and don't want to be similarly spoiled, don't try a 
> lift-a-tube bike.  
>
> You're welcome
>
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: PSA: Do NOT buy a Rivendell bicycle with a Lift-a-tube

[Jeremy Tavan]

Such a simple idea that makes so much sense. Glad it hear it really pans 
out in real life.

For those of us with bikes that we really like and don't really want to 
replace, some of the magic is available via buckle-on lift handles 
like https://www.etsy.com/listing/230724213/bicycle-handle-bicycle-leather-frame

/Jeremy

On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 11:47:54 AM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> Sorry for the provocative title, it's sarcastic.  Here's the punchline 
> content:
>
> If you carry bikes up and down stairs frequently, you might be tempted to 
> buy one of the Rosco Bubbe frames with a Lift-a-tube.  I was tempted like 
> you, and I bought one.  I've commuted with it for a couple weeks, and now I 
> can report that you should not buy one.because it will make you hate 
> how lame and stupid all your other bikes are when it comes to portaging up 
> and down stairs.  
>
> I've had to use a different bike as my BART bike the last two days, and 
> carrying it up and down BART stairs in the past was "fine".  It was "not a 
> big problem".  Now that I'm conditioned to the excellence of the 
> lift-a-tube, carrying a normal bike up the stairs is like an inhuman 
> torture device.  I'm telling you, if you think it's fine carrying your bike 
> up stairs or down stairs, then DO NOT try a lift-a-tube bike, because it 
> will ruin you.  Remain in the bliss of your ignorance.  
>
> Seriously though, using a different bike made it sink in just how awesome 
> the lift-a-tube is.  If you never carry a bike up or down stairs, you don't 
> need a lift-a-tube.  If the bike you carry up and down stairs is stripped 
> down, light weight and uncluttered so it's easy to shoulder, then you 
> probably don't need a lift-a-tube.  The liftatube is fabulous for everybody 
> else, and I'm now in a state where I probably won't use most of my other 
> bikes as BART bikes, because I'm spoiled by the lift-a-tube.  If you have a 
> bunch of bikes and don't want to be similarly spoiled, don't try a 
> lift-a-tube bike.  
>
> You're welcome
>
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
>
>
>

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