[RBW] Re: Quickbeam track end (dropout) maintenance?

[Coal Bee Rye Anne]

Thanks Laing, Yes, I failed to consider the appropriate Imperial/English 
diameter and thread pitch.  Sorry, did not intend to suggest they are 
actually compatible with metric 10mm axle nuts.  But it's the 8mm flats I 
initially expected the dropout slots to be spec'd for and was very 
surprised to find otherwise.  Same as my surprise to find the fork spec'd 
for 9mm QR instead of narrower 5/16" Raleigh nutted front axles.

Brian

On Wednesday, February 7, 2018 at 9:49:43 AM UTC-5, lconley wrote:

> I believe that Sturmey Archer rear hub axles were 13/32 back then and 
> still are today. S-A kindly prints the diameter on the ends of the closed 
> end nuts. My Guv'nor axle nuts say 13/32 on the rear and 9mm on the front, 
> or they did before I replaced them with wingnuts. 13/32 wingnuts for 3 
> speed pull chain shifters are not the most common things in the world. 10mm 
> does not fit.
>
> Laing
> Cocoa FL
>
> On Wednesday, February 7, 2018 at 9:37:31 AM UTC-5, Coal Bee Rye Anne 
> wrote:
>
>> I should have also originally stated "10mm threaded axle with 8mm flats"  
>> Sorry for any confusion
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Quickbeam track end (dropout) maintenance?

[lconley]

I believe that Sturmey Archer rear hub axles were 13/32 back then and still 
are today. S-A kindly prints the diameter on the ends of the closed end 
nuts. My Guv'nor axle nuts say 13/32 on the rear and 9mm on the front, or 
they did before I replaced them with wingnuts. 13/32 wingnuts for 3 speed 
pull chain shifters are not the most common things in the world. 10mm does 
not fit.

Laing
Cocoa FL

On Wednesday, February 7, 2018 at 9:37:31 AM UTC-5, Coal Bee Rye Anne wrote:

> I should have also originally stated "10mm threaded axle with 8mm flats"  
> Sorry for any confusion
>

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[RBW] Re: Quickbeam track end (dropout) maintenance?

[Coal Bee Rye Anne]

I should have also originally stated "10mm threaded axle with 8mm flats"  
Sorry for any confusion

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[RBW] Re: Quickbeam track end (dropout) maintenance?

[Coal Bee Rye Anne]

Found it, at least I now know I wasn't making things up but still doesn't 
explain my odd duck of a Raleigh frame...

as quoted from St. Sheldon:

"Most Nottingham Raleigh rear dropouts have narrow (8 mm) slots intended 
for the flat-sided axles common on Sturmey-Archer and other older British 
hubs. This still works with modern Sturmey-Archer and SRAM internal-gear 
hubs which have flatted axles. Most other modern rear hubs are 10 mm, some 
are even 10.5 mm, so you will need to file the rear as well. Shimano 
internal-gear hub axles are flatted, but the *anti-rotation washers* 
 place the 
flats at an angle to the dropout slots. We recommend doing all of the 
filing on the bottom of the slot. This eliminates the risk of making one 
side higher than the other.

Dropout spacing on bikes made for 3-speed applications is typically 114 mm 
(4 1/2 inches). 5-speed derailer systems usually used 120 mm. Many upgrades 
will call for a wider dropout spacing."
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/raleigh26.html

My previously mentioned frame is spaced 114 but already has 10mm slots (and 
appears to be original with no sign of prior tampering or repainting)
Fork is narrower than modern 100mm but already spec'd for 9mm QR hubs.
Axle to crown is much greater than our 26x1-3/8 wheeled Sports models.

Appears to be late 70's and LBS suspects it may have been originally spec'd 
as a 27" (630mm bsd) wheeled model based on size/clearances.
700x38 clears the fork easily. 35 or 38 might be max in the rear as 
chainstays are the tight spot but some dimpling may help get me up to 42mm 
front/rear.

Still have the bottom bracket threading to deal with but may just stick 
with a cottered crank for now since I have a spare BB/crank to use but 
ideally would modernize it.

Sorry for the diversion but this might just turn into my Poor Man's QB 
instead of three speed Resurrectio.

Brian Cole
Lawrenceville, NJ



On Tuesday, February 6, 2018 at 4:34:25 PM UTC-5, Philip Williamson wrote:

> That's a cool sounding bike. I didn't realize that there were 8mm flatted 
> axles. My wife had a couple of three-speeds, and I built wheels for her, 
> but I never tried to put a non-three-speed wheel into those frames. Just 
> rebuilt with aluminum rims, and swapped wheelsets around between her Steyr 
> and a Sprite.  
>
> Philip
> Santa Rosa, CA
>
> On Tuesday, February 6, 2018 at 12:36:01 PM UTC-8, Coal Bee Rye Anne wrote:
>>
>> Not a QB/S1 but I also recently filed the semi-horizontals of an old 
>> Raleigh that suffered same kind of roughness.  I've probably mentioned this 
>> one previously in another thread but it's a larger than normal 3 speed/IGH 
>> Raleigh (25" size) labeled only as "Deluxe" but with Superbe details 
>> (locking fork/pump pegs) different lugs, darker shade of green than any 
>> others I've seen, and a Carlton/Worksop full wrap seatstay junction.  Looks 
>> to be a European model imported to the US but I initially thought the rear 
>> dropouts were undersized to take SA flatted 8mm axles only and hesitated to 
>> force anything when a spare 120x10 track wheel didn't fit initially.  After 
>> bringing to a LBS to double check some measurements and such for parts 
>> compatibility they confirmed the rear dropouts were sized for 10mm and were 
>> able to fit a 700c QR road wheel just with more force than I previously 
>> applied to get past that initial rough/uneven spot. I later took a file 
>> to clean-em up and remove paint/rust and now it's like butter.  The 
>> roughest was near the front/entry point but once the axle got past there 
>> it moved with ease through the rest of the range and paint was in tact 
>> in most spots until I filed it down a hair.  I should have measured the 
>> dropouts with calipers but it slipped my mind after the wheel didn't fit 
>> and just assumed it was like all other 3 speed rears.
>>
>> Still up in the air with this one but it clears an actual 700x38 with 
>> R559s and thinking it'll make a nice QB substitute with ss or dingle 
>> fixed/free setup with more clearance than my other 2 single speedable 
>> frames.
>>
>> On Monday, February 5, 2018 at 8:43:49 PM UTC-5, Philip Williamson wrote:
>>
>>> Has anyone taken a file to clean up their Quickbeam or Simpleone track 
>>> ends? I did, and it was a vast improvement after 14 years of hard use. 
>>>
>>> I just got a Paul high flange wheelset and a Dura Ace crankset, and set 
>>> my green Quickbeam up as a two-speed fixed gear again. The Paul hubs attach 
>>> with bolts and fancy washers. The washers are sleeved to go inside the 
>>> dropout, and I had the dickens of a time getting them to move smoothly down 
>>> the length of the track end. Care-free gear changes wheel installation rely 
>>> on easy axle movement. 
>>>
>>> I inspected how the washers slide down the track without the wheel, and 
>>> I found that they simply didn't. They'd go a bit, and catch, binding badly 
>>> in a couple 

[RBW] Re: Quickbeam track end (dropout) maintenance?

[Coal Bee Rye Anne]

I’ll be confirming specs of the others soon (have a his/hers Sports combo) with 
calipers to double check everything with those frames and AW hubs but was sure 
from research and other tests that most had narrower rear dropouts.  

Forks were definitely narrower but now I’m questioning the rear. Hmmm...

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[RBW] Re: Quickbeam track end (dropout) maintenance?

[Philip Williamson]

That's a cool sounding bike. I didn't realize that there were 8mm flatted 
axles. My wife had a couple of three-speeds, and I built wheels for her, 
but I never tried to put a non-three-speed wheel into those frames. Just 
rebuilt with aluminum rims, and swapped wheelsets around between her Steyr 
and a Sprite.  

Philip
Santa Rosa, CA

On Tuesday, February 6, 2018 at 12:36:01 PM UTC-8, Coal Bee Rye Anne wrote:
>
> Not a QB/S1 but I also recently filed the semi-horizontals of an old 
> Raleigh that suffered same kind of roughness.  I've probably mentioned this 
> one previously in another thread but it's a larger than normal 3 speed/IGH 
> Raleigh (25" size) labeled only as "Deluxe" but with Superbe details 
> (locking fork/pump pegs) different lugs, darker shade of green than any 
> others I've seen, and a Carlton/Worksop full wrap seatstay junction.  Looks 
> to be a European model imported to the US but I initially thought the rear 
> dropouts were undersized to take SA flatted 8mm axles only and hesitated to 
> force anything when a spare 120x10 track wheel didn't fit initially.  After 
> bringing to a LBS to double check some measurements and such for parts 
> compatibility they confirmed the rear dropouts were sized for 10mm and were 
> able to fit a 700c QR road wheel just with more force than I previously 
> applied to get past that initial rough/uneven spot. I later took a file 
> to clean-em up and remove paint/rust and now it's like butter.  The 
> roughest was near the front/entry point but once the axle got past there 
> it moved with ease through the rest of the range and paint was in tact 
> in most spots until I filed it down a hair.  I should have measured the 
> dropouts with calipers but it slipped my mind after the wheel didn't fit 
> and just assumed it was like all other 3 speed rears.
>
> Still up in the air with this one but it clears an actual 700x38 with 
> R559s and thinking it'll make a nice QB substitute with ss or dingle 
> fixed/free setup with more clearance than my other 2 single speedable 
> frames.
>
> On Monday, February 5, 2018 at 8:43:49 PM UTC-5, Philip Williamson wrote:
>
>> Has anyone taken a file to clean up their Quickbeam or Simpleone track 
>> ends? I did, and it was a vast improvement after 14 years of hard use. 
>>
>> I just got a Paul high flange wheelset and a Dura Ace crankset, and set 
>> my green Quickbeam up as a two-speed fixed gear again. The Paul hubs attach 
>> with bolts and fancy washers. The washers are sleeved to go inside the 
>> dropout, and I had the dickens of a time getting them to move smoothly down 
>> the length of the track end. Care-free gear changes wheel installation rely 
>> on easy axle movement. 
>>
>> I inspected how the washers slide down the track without the wheel, and I 
>> found that they simply didn't. They'd go a bit, and catch, binding badly in 
>> a couple points. The edges of the track ends, especially at the bottom, 
>> were pretty ragged. In the center of each axle track (the inside part of 
>> the dropout), there's still green paint, as if the edges are higher than 
>> the centers. The edges were worn, rough, and scuffed. 
>>
>> After a bit of hesitation, I took a sharp file to the top and bottom of 
>> each dropout's axle track. I filed as flat as I could, but the steel is 
>> very tough, and I didn't remove much material. I didn't even remove the 
>> paint inside the dropouts. I checked the free movement of the bolt washers 
>> several times, and cleaned up each tough spot. After about 15 minutes of 
>> filing and checking, the washers slid up and down the axle track pretty 
>> freely. I put the wheel back in, and sure enough, it was now very easy to 
>> set the chain tension, and switch between the high and low gears. On this 
>> two-speed "dingle" setup, you change gears by moving the axle forward, 
>> derailing the chain onto the little ring and big cog, then move the axle 
>> back to tighten. Before the dropout cleanup, this was frustrating, and the 
>> axle wanted to "index" into particular spots. After the cleanup, it was 
>> easy and kind of fun. 
>>
>> So - Quickbeam track end cleanup is now on my 14-year maintenance cycle. 
>>
>> Side note: The new 120mm Paul axle is hollow, aluminum, and relieved. It 
>> is 111g lighter than the old steel 130mm solid axle! $40 to save a quarter 
>> of a pound seems justifiable. 
>>
>> Philip
>> Santa Rosa, CA 
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Quickbeam track end (dropout) maintenance?

[Coal Bee Rye Anne]

Not a QB/S1 but I also recently filed the semi-horizontals of an old 
Raleigh that suffered same kind of roughness.  I've probably mentioned this 
one previously in another thread but it's a larger than normal 3 speed/IGH 
Raleigh (25" size) labeled only as "Deluxe" but with Superbe details 
(locking fork/pump pegs) different lugs, darker shade of green than any 
others I've seen, and a Carlton/Worksop full wrap seatstay junction.  Looks 
to be a European model imported to the US but I initially thought the rear 
dropouts were undersized to take SA flatted 8mm axles only and hesitated to 
force anything when a spare 120x10 track wheel didn't fit initially.  After 
bringing to a LBS to double check some measurements and such for parts 
compatibility they confirmed the rear dropouts were sized for 10mm and were 
able to fit a 700c QR road wheel just with more force than I previously 
applied to get past that initial rough/uneven spot. I later took a file 
to clean-em up and remove paint/rust and now it's like butter.  The 
roughest was near the front/entry point but once the axle got past there 
it moved with ease through the rest of the range and paint was in tact 
in most spots until I filed it down a hair.  I should have measured the 
dropouts with calipers but it slipped my mind after the wheel didn't fit 
and just assumed it was like all other 3 speed rears.

Still up in the air with this one but it clears an actual 700x38 with R559s 
and thinking it'll make a nice QB substitute with ss or dingle fixed/free 
setup with more clearance than my other 2 single speedable frames.

On Monday, February 5, 2018 at 8:43:49 PM UTC-5, Philip Williamson wrote:

> Has anyone taken a file to clean up their Quickbeam or Simpleone track 
> ends? I did, and it was a vast improvement after 14 years of hard use. 
>
> I just got a Paul high flange wheelset and a Dura Ace crankset, and set my 
> green Quickbeam up as a two-speed fixed gear again. The Paul hubs attach 
> with bolts and fancy washers. The washers are sleeved to go inside the 
> dropout, and I had the dickens of a time getting them to move smoothly down 
> the length of the track end. Care-free gear changes wheel installation rely 
> on easy axle movement. 
>
> I inspected how the washers slide down the track without the wheel, and I 
> found that they simply didn't. They'd go a bit, and catch, binding badly in 
> a couple points. The edges of the track ends, especially at the bottom, 
> were pretty ragged. In the center of each axle track (the inside part of 
> the dropout), there's still green paint, as if the edges are higher than 
> the centers. The edges were worn, rough, and scuffed. 
>
> After a bit of hesitation, I took a sharp file to the top and bottom of 
> each dropout's axle track. I filed as flat as I could, but the steel is 
> very tough, and I didn't remove much material. I didn't even remove the 
> paint inside the dropouts. I checked the free movement of the bolt washers 
> several times, and cleaned up each tough spot. After about 15 minutes of 
> filing and checking, the washers slid up and down the axle track pretty 
> freely. I put the wheel back in, and sure enough, it was now very easy to 
> set the chain tension, and switch between the high and low gears. On this 
> two-speed "dingle" setup, you change gears by moving the axle forward, 
> derailing the chain onto the little ring and big cog, then move the axle 
> back to tighten. Before the dropout cleanup, this was frustrating, and the 
> axle wanted to "index" into particular spots. After the cleanup, it was 
> easy and kind of fun. 
>
> So - Quickbeam track end cleanup is now on my 14-year maintenance cycle. 
>
> Side note: The new 120mm Paul axle is hollow, aluminum, and relieved. It 
> is 111g lighter than the old steel 130mm solid axle! $40 to save a quarter 
> of a pound seems justifiable. 
>
> Philip
> Santa Rosa, CA 
>

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[RBW] Re: Quickbeam track end (dropout) maintenance?

[Philip Williamson]

Directly previously, I had been using a Sturmey S2 kickback with nuts. Before 
that, the stock Quickbeam gen 1 QR wheels, and a vintage Sachs Automatic with 
nuts, and an S3X with nuts. Before THAT, Suzue “disco” hubs with track nuts. 
Maybe a Kogswell hub with track nuts in there. 

So this is the first wheelset with bolts instead of nutsnor quick releases. 

Philip
Santa Rosa, CA

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[RBW] Re: Quickbeam track end (dropout) maintenance?

[Minh]

Phillip, 

What hubs were you using previously?  The QR ones or nutted/bolts?  

On Monday, February 5, 2018 at 8:43:49 PM UTC-5, Philip Williamson wrote:
>
> Has anyone taken a file to clean up their Quickbeam or Simpleone track 
> ends? I did, and it was a vast improvement after 14 years of hard use. 
>
> I just got a Paul high flange wheelset and a Dura Ace crankset, and set my 
> green Quickbeam up as a two-speed fixed gear again. The Paul hubs attach 
> with bolts and fancy washers. The washers are sleeved to go inside the 
> dropout, and I had the dickens of a time getting them to move smoothly down 
> the length of the track end. Care-free gear changes wheel installation rely 
> on easy axle movement. 
>
> I inspected how the washers slide down the track without the wheel, and I 
> found that they simply didn't. They'd go a bit, and catch, binding badly in 
> a couple points. The edges of the track ends, especially at the bottom, 
> were pretty ragged. In the center of each axle track (the inside part of 
> the dropout), there's still green paint, as if the edges are higher than 
> the centers. The edges were worn, rough, and scuffed. 
>
> After a bit of hesitation, I took a sharp file to the top and bottom of 
> each dropout's axle track. I filed as flat as I could, but the steel is 
> very tough, and I didn't remove much material. I didn't even remove the 
> paint inside the dropouts. I checked the free movement of the bolt washers 
> several times, and cleaned up each tough spot. After about 15 minutes of 
> filing and checking, the washers slid up and down the axle track pretty 
> freely. I put the wheel back in, and sure enough, it was now very easy to 
> set the chain tension, and switch between the high and low gears. On this 
> two-speed "dingle" setup, you change gears by moving the axle forward, 
> derailing the chain onto the little ring and big cog, then move the axle 
> back to tighten. Before the dropout cleanup, this was frustrating, and the 
> axle wanted to "index" into particular spots. After the cleanup, it was 
> easy and kind of fun. 
>
> So - Quickbeam track end cleanup is now on my 14-year maintenance cycle. 
>
> Side note: The new 120mm Paul axle is hollow, aluminum, and relieved. It 
> is 111g lighter than the old steel 130mm solid axle! $40 to save a quarter 
> of a pound seems justifiable. 
>
> Philip
> Santa Rosa, CA 
>

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