Re: [RBW] Re: Social justice from a real working class perspective
How is this discussion ON TOPIC? On 6/15/20 10:52 PM, 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch wrote: Jason, if "these kinds of issues" aren't political, but are just about being a decent human being, are you saying there is one, singular way to be a decent human being and zero room for disagreement about how we go about upholding human dignity, be it protesting, rioting, looting, burning, voting, praying, learning, reasoning, competing, purchasing, building ... et al? -- Steve Palincsar Alexandria, Virginia USA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/bcefd6e8-0109-264f-c59a-3b81cf1efe53%40his.com.
[RBW] Re: Social justice from a real working class perspective
Maybe a more concise way to say what i meant would be: We all have very different life experiences, which lead to very different world views. all of them are valid. but it's important to recognize where those differences in life experiences might come from, and that the relevance of yours vs. others will depend on the topic. Our odds at success or failure depend on a lot of things, and many of them are out of our control. Some of those are unrelated to our visible differences. Some of them are. Patrick, your signature tells me that we have different belief systems, but that's not to say they can't both convey the same message in different ways. When it comes to the tool, it's all about how you use it. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/03180115-0eea-4cab-8be1-9d3553a5b5dco%40googlegroups.com.
Re: [RBW] Re: Social justice from a real working class perspective
I deleted my response. Don’t know about the overall post. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/bf642be4-cb79-4f0d-9dff-b523c925ca50o%40googlegroups.com.
Re: [RBW] Re: Social justice from a real working class perspective
Sorry, didn't mean to start another debate, just thought it interesting and pertinent because Moulton is certainly about cycling, usually, and I got carried away. How do I take this down? On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 9:12 PM Drw wrote: > ... > Anyway, this will get taken down. I’m ok with that, but I do hope we are > all reading and talking and acting...just not here... > > -- -- --- Patrick Moore Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/CALuTfgvrFjwm6PgBwFgVnWysQOmr5eemOX3qip5EvCvR5SgpkQ%40mail.gmail.com.
[RBW] Re: Social justice from a real working class perspective
What does my signature, with abandon, tell you? With abandon, Patrick On Monday, June 15, 2020 at 9:05:45 PM UTC-6, Jason Fuller wrote: > > I would never claim there's a singular correct view on how to fix the > problem, but I will certainly maintain there's only one correct answer to > whether there is a problem that needs fixing. A common theme in my world > view is that diversity is a positive thing, and that goes for opinions too. > However, a lot of so-called opinions are simply incorrect understandings of > reality, when ignorance stands in the way of learning. > > I bet we have extremely different views in general (I know this, from your > signature) but I take no issue with that at all, in fact I appreciate it, > as long as those views aren't causing unnecessary pain or suffering. That's > when I would have to disagree. > > In the case of police brutality, the opinion that matters to me is of > those affected by it; many of us aren't (myself included) and therefore I > don't consider myself to have any say in the matter, except to echo and > amplify the experiences and opinions of those who do. > > > On Monday, 15 June 2020 19:52:12 UTC-7, Deacon Patrick wrote: >> >> Jason, if "these kinds of issues" aren't political, but are just about >> being a decent human being, are you saying there is one, singular way to be >> a decent human being and zero room for disagreement about how we go about >> upholding human dignity, be it protesting, rioting, looting, burning, >> voting, praying, learning, reasoning, competing, purchasing, building ... >> et al? >> >> With abandon, >> Patrick >> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/aad12c37-1d2b-4972-9baf-939d64ad1894o%40googlegroups.com.
[RBW] Re: Social justice from a real working class perspective
I won’t speak to Jason’s intent, but I think quite the opposite, Deacon Patrick. Saying something is political seems to let people off the hook ( like “I don’t do politics”) but even that is, in fact a political move. I think there are a set of objectives that definitely reflect a good person’s character. That said, debate about ways of accomplishing them, for me, would be welcome. I’d almost go so far as to say that not talking about accomplishing the objectives does reflect poorly on a person’s character, and implies a definite level of ambivalence to the plight of our neighbors. Anyway, this will get taken down. I’m ok with that, but I do hope we are all reading and talking and acting...just not here... -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/6139f901-970f-4f06-ae20-a1d44d592e7do%40googlegroups.com.
[RBW] Re: Social justice from a real working class perspective
Thank you for sharing. He had some interesting posts. I agree with Brent and would love to hear what others would read. I am heartened by how many folks are speaking up right now about what is happening in this country and the systems of injustice. There are many ways to be a good person in the world but not one that involves the exploitation, abuse and dehumanization of human beings. At least today there was a glimmer of hope for our LGBTQ+ friends, family and neighbors. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/ff5b8e63-c6ac-4abb-9e6a-ee2f708ead71o%40googlegroups.com.
[RBW] Re: Social justice from a real working class perspective
I would never claim there's a singular correct view on how to fix the problem, but I will certainly maintain there's only one correct answer to whether there is a problem that needs fixing. A common theme in my world view is that diversity is a positive thing, and that goes for opinions too. However, a lot of so-called opinions are simply incorrect understandings of reality, when ignorance stands in the way of learning. I bet we have extremely different views in general (I know this, from your signature) but I take no issue with that at all, in fact I appreciate it, as long as those views aren't causing unnecessary pain or suffering. That's when I would have to disagree. In the case of police brutality, the opinion that matters to me is of those affected by it; many of us aren't (myself included) and therefore I don't consider myself to have any say in the matter, except to echo and amplify the experiences and opinions of those who do. On Monday, 15 June 2020 19:52:12 UTC-7, Deacon Patrick wrote: > > Jason, if "these kinds of issues" aren't political, but are just about > being a decent human being, are you saying there is one, singular way to be > a decent human being and zero room for disagreement about how we go about > upholding human dignity, be it protesting, rioting, looting, burning, > voting, praying, learning, reasoning, competing, purchasing, building ... > et al? > > With abandon, > Patrick > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/acfb79cd-3b4b-4b20-a890-6402ea41e166o%40googlegroups.com.
[RBW] Re: Social justice from a real working class perspective
Jason, if "these kinds of issues" aren't political, but are just about being a decent human being, are you saying there is one, singular way to be a decent human being and zero room for disagreement about how we go about upholding human dignity, be it protesting, rioting, looting, burning, voting, praying, learning, reasoning, competing, purchasing, building ... et al? With abandon, Patrick -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/897e508e-bbd6-412d-9e97-0ab5f062f4f0o%40googlegroups.com.
[RBW] Re: Social justice from a real working class perspective
I can't imagine this post will last too long, despite the Moulton connection! But glad to see that he's aware and acknowledging that these issues persist today, and I for one am happy to see you bring it up. These kinds of issues get labelled as political, but that's a cop-out. It's about being a decent human being in my books. I've been really heartened by how mainstream these difficult discussions have become, and I hope the momentum continues for some real change. As a society, we tend to get used to things, regardless of how sane or insane they are. Things that are perceived as totally normal in one country are considered absolutely bizarre in another, and it has nothing to do with the predisposition of its people - that's the key thing about all of this - we are all the same, regardless of our background. We all have different personalities but that's totally independent of our heritage--if we sorted ourselves by our mutual interests and skills, it would be a pretty diverse mix. One of those things that has become perceived as normal in North America is that the police are a huge, armed presence that are kind of a one-size-fits-all solution to a host of problems. There are a multitude of different ways the security of society could be accomplished that look very different from today's model, so the idea 'defund the police' is not nearly as radical as it sounds. it has a bit of a click-baity vibe to it, which i think does a lot of harm to its credibility, but the idea is actually very sound. Similarly, the term 'industrial prison complex' sounds like straight-up lunatic speak in my opinion, yet if you spend the time to really understand how this feedback loop works in modern society, it's a real and credible problem. I'm thankful for how much information has come to light in all this, I've become a lot better educated and know better how to help than ever before, and I hope others do the same. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/942a81ac-0297-4abe-822b-364ee02c1999o%40googlegroups.com.
[RBW] Re: Social justice from a real working class perspective
One more remark regarding the British working class: from what I infer from reading and observation from growing up in ex-Brit-Crown Colonies, the working class of his time was far more accepting of black and brown people than the ruling and middle classes; Moulton's remarks about black American soldiers bears this out. Also, to carry this tangent farther: racialist prejudice against dark skins was somewhat late among the British, AFAICT: 19th century, and even later 19th century, supported by the new Darwinist ideologies. Othello was written by a Brit, and you read about and see colored people of various sorts in 18th century popular media in surprisingly everyday roles -- Hogarth, for example. Not perfect equality, but certainly not the savage hatred and fear and contempt of the US South. Patrick "part brown myself" Moore On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 12:52 PM Patrick Moore wrote: > http://davesbikeblog.squarespace.com > > I don't usually look to craftsmen, however talented, for ethical or > philosophical insights, but Dave Moulton makes some very basic good points. > Moulton is not the brightest bulb in the chandelier, and his syntax and > punctuation are iffy, but he has on his side both age and an upbringing in > a relative poverty that perforce enforces a certain realism that > counteracts ideological extravagance -- you don't become an anarchist if > you are busy working hard to support your family. > > > -- > > --- > Patrick Moore > Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum > > -- --- Patrick Moore Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/CALuTfguUt_GWcYaSYxXibhoH8erPxOaaQjHsxhHZCvBrdAjYpw%40mail.gmail.com.
