[RBW] Re: What're the best cantilever brakes out there?

[Michael Hechmer]

Eric,  you certainly have gotten a lot of advice and all I can offer is a 
single data point.  First, I will second Steve's observation that the Rene 
Herse equipment is generally made for an integrated bike system, so it 
often doesn't lend itself to a retrofit. Second, different brakes work 
better or worse with different levers.  Make sure the lever & brake pull 
are well matched.  I have Shimano, Di Compe, Tecktro and Paul's Neo retros. 
 The first two offered only mediocre power, although the Shimanos worked 
better with Tectro levers than with Ultegra.  I found the Teckro very 
fussy.  The Paul's offer three great advantages that make them worth the 
money to me.  First they offer both excellent stoping and modulation. 
 Second, they are the easiest to adjust, although I did have a learning 
curve with this until the process jelled in my brain.  Finally, they are a 
lifetime brake.  They will last as long as your steel frame.  Maybe even 
longer.  All of the parts are readily available at a reasonable price.  I 
originally had Paul's racers on our tandem and have been very happy that I 
converted to the Neo-Retros for the added tire clearance.  We run 45s on 
that bike now.

Michael

On Sunday, April 14, 2019 at 8:00:01 PM UTC-4, Erik Wright wrote:
>
> I'm thinking about getting canti posts brazed onto my sidepull Sam 
> Hillborne to fit a wider tire / make wide tire installation easier. Canti 
> brakes would be replacing Paul Racers.
>
> If I go this route, what are the best options out there? I figure top of 
> the line is Paul, but what's a more affordable brake? I see a lot of 
> chatter around Shimano CX70, but hear they're discontinued. Is there a 
> comparable option available now, or does it make sense to hunt down a used 
> set of CX70s? If I splurge on Neo Retros, am I gaining anything 
> functionally over other options?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Erik, Philly
>

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[RBW] Re: What're the best cantilever brakes out there?

[Benz, Sunnyvale, CA]

On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 10:23:13 AM UTC-7, Ash wrote:
>
> I'll be damned!
>
>
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/XTR-M900-brake-set-Shimano-cantilever-Vintage-Mountain-Bike-mtb-2-NOS/312434294778?epid=1301629719=item48be88fffa:g:9xIAAOSwAxNZ0AjQ
>  
> 
>

The first eBay auction is from pb*bikes. This seller is well-known for 
asking sky high prices for NOS items that are (usually) hard to find. If 
you have the dough and don't want to wait 24 months for the same item in 
nearly as good of a condition to show up with a different seller, 
well, pb*bikes is your guy/girl!

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Re: [RBW] Re: What're the best cantilever brakes out there?

[phil k]

This is true. My biggest gripe with the cantis I almost forgot about - it 
cannot fit anything wider than 54mm according to their specs. I wanted to 
make a canti RTP bike, but with fenders these cantis would not work either.

On Wednesday, April 24, 2019 at 4:10:18 PM UTC-4, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
> On 4/24/19 3:34 PM, phil k wrote: 
> > My one dislike for the Rene Herse cantis are the roller yokes. They 
> > are bulky and take more real estate and interfere with the fork crown 
> > mount of a rack, they are also finicky to set up considering the rest 
> > of the brakes are a breeze to set up. I had to use a more traditional 
> > yoke like your second picture to get more clearance on traditional 
> > Nitto rando racks. 
>
>
> Admittedly, I didn't set mine up, the LBS did - but unlike some other 
> roller yokes where have to cut the cable to exact length with these you 
> just put the cable through the hole and fasten it. And, of course, 
> although the rollers come with the brakes they're not required, you can 
> use any yoke. 
>
>
> -- 
> Steve Palincsar 
> Alexandria, Virginia 
> USA 
>
>

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[RBW] Re: What're the best cantilever brakes out there?

[masmojo]

Ash, those are NOS & offered by someone with an inflated opinion of their 
value; occasional searching will turn up more reasonably priced used sets. 
Appearance wise they hold up well over time and any I buy, I am intent on 
using, so NOS means nothing to me. 

Of course they fall into that category of components that I should stop 
extolling the virtue of, because it just drives up demand and prices!

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Re: [RBW] Re: What're the best cantilever brakes out there?

[Steve Palincsar]

Damned indeed.  That's some mighty serious money they're asking for 
them.  They weren't just MTB: I had them on my Santana tandem, where 
they worked just fine.  For that money, though, there's simply no way 
I'd choose them over the Rene Herse cantilevers.



On 4/25/19 1:23 PM, Ash wrote:

I'll be damned!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/XTR-M900-brake-set-Shimano-cantilever-Vintage-Mountain-Bike-mtb-2-NOS/312434294778?epid=1301629719=item48be88fffa:g:9xIAAOSwAxNZ0AjQ

https://www.ebay.com/itm/XTR-M900-brake-set-Shimano-cantilever-Vintage-Mountain-Bike-NOS/333144968671?hash=item4d90fccddf:g:YxIAAOSw~K5baWTl

They do look gorgeous..



On Wednesday, 24 April 2019 09:59:54 UTC-7, masmojo wrote:

The best cantilever brake is a pretty broad topic & all the ones
mentioned here are great, but I  personally like first generation
Shimano XTR cantis myself. I think they only made them 1 or 2
years before switching to V brakes, but they are quite pretty,
light, strong and stop good. You can pick them up used on Ebay.
I've got a couple extra sets stashed away. Used sets can be
pricey, but sub $60 is very fair. Will likely need new pads.



--
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia
USA

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[RBW] Re: What're the best cantilever brakes out there?

[Ash]

I'll be damned!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/XTR-M900-brake-set-Shimano-cantilever-Vintage-Mountain-Bike-mtb-2-NOS/312434294778?epid=1301629719=item48be88fffa:g:9xIAAOSwAxNZ0AjQ

https://www.ebay.com/itm/XTR-M900-brake-set-Shimano-cantilever-Vintage-Mountain-Bike-NOS/333144968671?hash=item4d90fccddf:g:YxIAAOSw~K5baWTl

They do look gorgeous..



On Wednesday, 24 April 2019 09:59:54 UTC-7, masmojo wrote:
>
> The best cantilever brake is a pretty broad topic & all the ones mentioned 
> here are great, but I  personally like first generation Shimano XTR cantis 
> myself. I think they only made them 1 or 2 years before switching to V 
> brakes, but they are quite pretty, light, strong and stop good. You can 
> pick them up used on Ebay. I've got a couple extra sets stashed away. Used 
> sets can be pricey, but sub $60 is very fair. Will likely need new pads.

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Re: [RBW] Re: What're the best cantilever brakes out there?

[ted]

Yes, thanks Steve. Very cool.

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Re: [RBW] Re: What're the best cantilever brakes out there?

[ted]

Enough about the brakes.
Now please tell us all about those down tube shifters.

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Re: [RBW] Re: What're the best cantilever brakes out there?

[Steve Palincsar]

On 4/24/19 3:34 PM, phil k wrote:
My one dislike for the Rene Herse cantis are the roller yokes. They 
are bulky and take more real estate and interfere with the fork crown 
mount of a rack, they are also finicky to set up considering the rest 
of the brakes are a breeze to set up. I had to use a more traditional 
yoke like your second picture to get more clearance on traditional 
Nitto rando racks.



Admittedly, I didn't set mine up, the LBS did - but unlike some other 
roller yokes where have to cut the cable to exact length with these you 
just put the cable through the hole and fasten it. And, of course, 
although the rollers come with the brakes they're not required, you can 
use any yoke.



--
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia
USA

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Re: [RBW] Re: What're the best cantilever brakes out there?

[phil k]

My one dislike for the Rene Herse cantis are the roller yokes. They are 
bulky and take more real estate and interfere with the fork crown mount of 
a rack, they are also finicky to set up considering the rest of the brakes 
are a breeze to set up. I had to use a more traditional yoke like your 
second picture to get more clearance on traditional Nitto rando racks.

On Wednesday, April 24, 2019 at 1:59:07 PM UTC-4, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
>
> On 4/24/19 1:30 PM, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> Darin: I daresay you are wary before being weary of cantilever advice. 
>
> All: General question: What are the respective benefits and defects of 
> high profile and low profile cantilever brakes?
>
>
> Biggest benefit to low profile cantilevers is their low profile: less 
> likely to interfere with feet, bags, etc.  Biggest drawbacks to low profile 
> cantilevers are tricky setup, sensitivity to straddle cable height, 
> geometry works against you as you get closer to the rim.
>
> Flip those for mid-profile.  Drawbacks, Possible interference w/bags & big 
> feet | small frames, benefits easier setup in that not sensitive to 
> straddle cable height.  
>
>
>
> Which style, and which make/model of that style, would you (singly) 
> choose, and why?
>
>
> I like the mid-profile cantilever brakes.  My new bike was designed to use 
> the Rene Herse cantilevers and built by a master craftsman and they're 
> simply brilliant.  The aesthetics are amazing: beautiful, almost 
> jewel-like; as simple and minimalistic as it is possible to be; they weigh 
> next to nothing; there's virtually nothing to adjust; and they work and 
> feel just great, better than any other cantilever I've ever used before.  
> And they don't squeal, either.  With a frame my size, there are no concerns 
> about hitting bags or feet.  The classic solution to supporting a front 
> rack was designed for just these brakes.
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Steve Palincsar
> Alexandria, Virginia 
> USA
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: What're the best cantilever brakes out there?

[Patrick Moore]

Darin: I daresay you are wary before being weary of cantilever advice.

All: General question: What are the respective benefits and defects of high
profile and low profile cantilever brakes?

Which style, and which make/model of that style, would you (singly) choose,
and why?

On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 11:24 AM DarinM  wrote:

> ...I'm weary of any claim that a given high quality cantilever brake is
> objectively better than the rest.
>

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[RBW] Re: What're the best cantilever brakes out there?

[DarinM]

This is a good take. I'm weary of any claim that a given high quality 
cantilever brake is objectively better than the rest. Of the high quality 
options, pick one that fits your frame requirements, aesthetics, and/or 
mechanical aptitude. Even the lower quality ones can be coaxed to work well 
enough.

I avoided smooth post type for a while but came into a nice set for very 
cheap that fit my builds aesthetics (Shimano M373). I've figured out how to 
set them up properly and now they work as well or better than any other 
model I've used.

Darin

On Wednesday, April 24, 2019 at 9:59:54 AM UTC-7, masmojo wrote:
>
> The best cantilever brake is a pretty broad topic & all the ones mentioned 
> here are great, but I  personally like first generation Shimano XTR cantis 
> myself. I think they only made them 1 or 2 years before switching to V 
> brakes, but they are quite pretty, light, strong and stop good. You can 
> pick them up used on Ebay. I've got a couple extra sets stashed away. Used 
> sets can be pricey, but sub $60 is very fair. Will likely need new pads.

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[RBW] Re: What're the best cantilever brakes out there?

[masmojo]

The best cantilever brake is a pretty broad topic & all the ones mentioned here 
are great, but I  personally like first generation Shimano XTR cantis myself. I 
think they only made them 1 or 2 years before switching to V brakes, but they 
are quite pretty, light, strong and stop good. You can pick them up used on 
Ebay. I've got a couple extra sets stashed away. Used sets can be pricey, but 
sub $60 is very fair. Will likely need new pads.

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[RBW] Re: What're the best cantilever brakes out there?

[Ron Mc]

What Dave said, Paul cantis, especially combined with Paul levers, are the 
best brakes extant. 

On Monday, April 15, 2019 at 8:53:17 AM UTC-5, Dave Grossman wrote:
>
> Hey Erik,
>
> You are going to get a million opinions but Pauls are really easier than 
> all other canti's to setup.  The mechanism they use to control spring 
> tension is just so easy to adjust.  I also think getting some good Kool 
> Stop pads makes a huge difference.
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: What're the best cantilever brakes out there?

[Sean PNW]

I run Tektro 720s on my lock up/commuter/porteur and they work just fine 
with salmon pads, clearing inflated RTPs with ease.

I've Pauls on another nicer bike and prefer them over the Tektro 720s, 
they're the best cantis I've used.

However, so long as they're decent brakes, i.e. any of the mentioned 
flavors: Pauls/720s/CX70s/CX50s/Older XTs/RH/IRD/VO/etc, my experience has 
been that proper set up generally trumps the nuanced strengths and 
weaknesses inherent in each particular model. 

I'd recommend referencing this when you set up which ever cantis you land 
upon, it's a pretty comprehensive overview of the little tricks which add 
up to make a big difference:

https://blackmtncycles.com/get-the-most-out-of-your-canti-brake/




On Monday, April 15, 2019 at 7:55:30 PM UTC-7, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>
> Hi Will. Yes, I've been rolling with the tektro 720's on my 26in road bike 
> for a few years, been through a couple of sets of Koolstops. Steve, they do 
> have the grub screw. But it's not necessary to use it.
>
> I think there are lots of variables that makes for such a wide variety of 
> opinions. The two main ones in my estimation would be brake setup and user 
> expectation.
>
> n Monday, April 15, 2019 at 8:56:05 PM UTC-4, William deRosset wrote:
> > Dear Mark,
> > 
> > Tektro cr720's are a fine enough brake, and when set up properly, work 
> as well as any. They have the significant advantage of using orbital brake 
> pads and slotted pad holder mounts that greatly simplify setup. Just 
> replace the astonishingly bad Tektro brake blocks with Kool-Stop Salmon pads
> > Also, the hardware on the brake is less-than-beautifully finished, if 
> functional. 
> > 
> > They punch well above their $45/bike price. Add $12 for Salmon pads up 
> front.
> > 
> > If cost is no object, then the RH brakes work well in my experience. 
> They are lovely as well.
> > 
> > Best Regards,
> > 
> > Will
> > William M deRosset
> > Fort Collins CO USA
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: What're the best cantilever brakes out there?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Thanks Will. I thought they were called grub screws because they're so freaking 
tiny and always falling out of things onto the ground and you have to grub 
around looking for them.

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Re: [RBW] Re: What're the best cantilever brakes out there?

[DarinM]

Will,

I always thought it was silly that these hangers have a total of three (3) 
fasteners to hold it in place where none (0) are actually necessary. That 
said, I have had a set of 720's with such mismatched springs that it was 
necessary to actually use different tension holes on either brake post then 
fine tune with the tension adjustment set screw. Maybe the idea is to cheap 
out on springs and compensate with the ability to secure the hanger off 
center?

I only had this problem once, otherwise I think they are great brakes and 
cheap as heck. 

Darin

On Wednesday, April 17, 2019 at 10:05:53 AM UTC-7, William deRosset wrote:
>
> Dear Mark,
>
> The grubscrews to which you refer are on the straddle wire carrier, 
>  and 
> are only used to locate the straddle cable carrier on the straddle cable. 
> They are not directly in the load path. I've never used them. I pull mine 
> and keep them in a jar of m4 grub screws, which are used on my fender 
> mounts, as they are unnecessary to the function of the brake or of the 
> straddle carrier. the brakes center just fine.
>
>
>
> [image: 2019-04-17_11-00-52.png][image: 2019-04-17_11-03-10.png]
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Will
> William M. deRosset
> Fort Collins, CO
>
> On Monday, April 15, 2019 at 8:55:30 PM UTC-6, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>>
>> Hi Will. Yes, I've been rolling with the tektro 720's on my 26in road 
>> bike for a few years, been through a couple of sets of Koolstops. Steve, 
>> they do have the grub screw. But it's not necessary to use it.
>>
>> I think there are lots of variables that makes for such a wide variety of 
>> opinions. The two main ones in my estimation would be brake setup and user 
>> expectation.
>>
>> n Monday, April 15, 2019 at 8:56:05 PM UTC-4, William deRosset wrote:
>> > Dear Mark,
>> > 
>> > Tektro cr720's are a fine enough brake, and when set up properly, work 
>> as well as any. They have the significant advantage of using orbital brake 
>> pads and slotted pad holder mounts that greatly simplify setup. Just 
>> replace the astonishingly bad Tektro brake blocks with Kool-Stop Salmon pads
>> > Also, the hardware on the brake is less-than-beautifully finished, if 
>> functional. 
>> > 
>> > They punch well above their $45/bike price. Add $12 for Salmon pads up 
>> front.
>> > 
>> > If cost is no object, then the RH brakes work well in my experience. 
>> They are lovely as well.
>> > 
>> > Best Regards,
>> > 
>> > Will
>> > William M deRosset
>> > Fort Collins CO USA
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: What're the best cantilever brakes out there?

[William deRosset]

Dear Mark,

The grubscrews to which you refer are on the straddle wire carrier, 
 and are 
only used to locate the straddle cable carrier on the straddle cable. They 
are not directly in the load path. I've never used them. I pull mine and 
keep them in a jar of m4 grub screws, which are used on my fender mounts, 
as they are unnecessary to the function of the brake or of the straddle 
carrier. the brakes center just fine.



[image: 2019-04-17_11-00-52.png] [image: 
2019-04-17_11-03-10.png] 


Best Regards,

Will
William M. deRosset
Fort Collins, CO

On Monday, April 15, 2019 at 8:55:30 PM UTC-6, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>
> Hi Will. Yes, I've been rolling with the tektro 720's on my 26in road bike 
> for a few years, been through a couple of sets of Koolstops. Steve, they do 
> have the grub screw. But it's not necessary to use it.
>
> I think there are lots of variables that makes for such a wide variety of 
> opinions. The two main ones in my estimation would be brake setup and user 
> expectation.
>
> n Monday, April 15, 2019 at 8:56:05 PM UTC-4, William deRosset wrote:
> > Dear Mark,
> > 
> > Tektro cr720's are a fine enough brake, and when set up properly, work 
> as well as any. They have the significant advantage of using orbital brake 
> pads and slotted pad holder mounts that greatly simplify setup. Just 
> replace the astonishingly bad Tektro brake blocks with Kool-Stop Salmon pads
> > Also, the hardware on the brake is less-than-beautifully finished, if 
> functional. 
> > 
> > They punch well above their $45/bike price. Add $12 for Salmon pads up 
> front.
> > 
> > If cost is no object, then the RH brakes work well in my experience. 
> They are lovely as well.
> > 
> > Best Regards,
> > 
> > Will
> > William M deRosset
> > Fort Collins CO USA
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: What're the best cantilever brakes out there?

[William deRosset]

>Do the Tektros use one of those grub screws to anchor the straddle cable?

Dear Steve,

Nope. They use a cast end on one side and a pinch clamp for the other. 

A grub screw bearing directly on a stranded cable loaded in tension is also 
described as the "death clamp", right? There are ways to fix it (brass 
sleeve, for instance, a ball bearing may also work), but it is a 
stupid/unsafe/inconvenient design out of the box.

Best Regards,

Will
On Monday, April 15, 2019 at 8:10:06 PM UTC-6, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
> On 4/15/19 8:56 PM, William deRosset wrote:
>
> Dear Mark,
>
> Tektro cr720's are a fine enough brake, and when set up properly, work as 
> well as any. They have the significant advantage of using orbital brake pads 
> and slotted pad holder mounts that greatly simplify setup. Just replace the 
> astonishingly bad Tektro brake blocks with Kool-Stop Salmon pads
> Also, the hardware on the brake is less-than-beautifully finished, if 
> functional. 
>
> They punch well above their $45/bike price. Add $12 for Salmon pads up front.
>
> If cost is no object, then the RH brakes work well in my experience. They are 
> lovely as well.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Will
> William M deRosset
> Fort Collins CO USA
>
>
> -- 
> Steve Palincsar
> Alexandria, Virginia 
> USA
>
>

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[RBW] Re: What're the best cantilever brakes out there?

[Ash]

Initially when I built up my first Rivendell 2 yrs ago I used Cantis.  Went 
through, I think, 4 pairs, out of curiosity how they differ - VO Zeste, 
CR-710, Avid Shorty Ultimate and one other I can't remember.

I was most impressed with the Avid in terms of performance and design (I'm 
not talking about the aesthetics).  VO Zeste was quite good as well. 
 Somehow the Zeste opened wider (the brake shoes didn't hit the fork 
blades), hence it was very convenient to remove wheels that had 2.00" tires 
on. 
  
Eventually I switched to v-brakes.  This was NOT for performance reasons. 
 I have OCD tendencies.  Found myself constantly fiddling with the brakes. 
 There's not much to tweak with in v-brakes.

I think cantis look cooler and the modulation they offer is actually 
useful.  I do not like the 'grabbiness' of v-brakes.  One day I think I'll 
go back to cantis. 



On Sunday, 14 April 2019 17:00:01 UTC-7, Erik Wright wrote:
>
> I'm thinking about getting canti posts brazed onto my sidepull Sam 
> Hillborne to fit a wider tire / make wide tire installation easier. Canti 
> brakes would be replacing Paul Racers.
>
> If I go this route, what are the best options out there? I figure top of 
> the line is Paul, but what's a more affordable brake? I see a lot of 
> chatter around Shimano CX70, but hear they're discontinued. Is there a 
> comparable option available now, or does it make sense to hunt down a used 
> set of CX70s? If I splurge on Neo Retros, am I gaining anything 
> functionally over other options?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Erik, Philly
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: What're the best cantilever brakes out there?

[Steve Palincsar]

And there is a significant difference between /formal standards/ (a 
specification that has been approved by a standards setting 
organization) and /de facto/ /standard/s (a specification (or protocol 
or technology) that has achieved widespread use and acceptance – often 
without being approved by any standards organization or receiving such 
approval only after it already has achieved widespread use).  Garth is 
clearly thinking of formal standards, and seems to be dismissing de 
facto standards entirely -- when in fact much of what we consider to be 
"standard" is actually a de facto rather than de jure formal standard.


On 4/16/19 9:10 AM, ascpgh wrote:
Like brake lever pull, BB width, headset diameter, rear hub OLD. 
Standards seem to exist for others to deviate from.


Andy Cheatham
Pittsburgh

On Monday, April 15, 2019 at 5:03:29 PM UTC-4, Steve Palincsar wrote:

So because there is a different standard for bottom bracket
threading to British, British BB threading is no longer a standard?

If you want to use the Herse brakes, distance between posts should
be: 62 - 84 mm. According to discussions I've seen on the forums,
back in the heyday of cantilever brakes on MTBs Shimano decreed
that posts would be 80mm apart.  Evidently in the past (perhaps
even distant past) that spacing had been 60.  The modern standard
is 80mm, and it's said all the brakes designed in the last 25
years are built for that.

On 4/15/19 4:52 PM, Garth wrote:


Sorry Steve, no standard. A standard to be a standard must be
universal, independent of brands of parts, frame or builder.
British BB threading, that's a standard.


On Monday, April 15, 2019 at 3:41:21 PM UTC-4, Steve Palincsar
wrote:

There is a standard, it's just that not everybody has
followed it. Most cantilever brakes try to incorporate a lot
of adjustability to compensate for that. Since the Herse
brake is primarily intended for custom bikes, the expectation
is the builder will adhere to the published specifications. 
In that context, it's a reasonable expectation.  Obviously
that doesn't work really well for retrofitting onto an
existing frame made with any old whimsical canti post
spacing.  However, it's not too likely you'd be putting
brakes that cost that much on such a frame in the first place.

On 4/15/19 3:21 PM, Garth wrote:

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Re: [RBW] Re: What're the best cantilever brakes out there?

[ascpgh]

Like brake lever pull, BB width, headset diameter, rear hub OLD. Standards 
seem to exist for others to deviate from.

Andy Cheatham
Pittsburgh

On Monday, April 15, 2019 at 5:03:29 PM UTC-4, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
> So because there is a different standard for bottom bracket threading to 
> British, British BB threading is no longer a standard?
>
> If you want to use the Herse brakes, distance between posts should be: 62 
> - 84 mm.  According to discussions I've seen on the forums, back in the 
> heyday of cantilever brakes on MTBs Shimano decreed that posts would be 
> 80mm apart.  Evidently in the past (perhaps even distant past) that spacing 
> had been 60.  The modern standard is 80mm, and it's said all the brakes 
> designed in the last 25 years are built for that.
> On 4/15/19 4:52 PM, Garth wrote:
>
>
> Sorry Steve, no standard. A standard to be a standard must be universal, 
> independent of brands of parts, frame or builder. British BB threading, 
> that's a standard. 
>
>
> On Monday, April 15, 2019 at 3:41:21 PM UTC-4, Steve Palincsar wrote: 
>>
>> There is a standard, it's just that not everybody has followed it.   Most 
>> cantilever brakes try to incorporate a lot of adjustability to compensate 
>> for that.  Since the Herse brake is primarily intended for custom bikes, 
>> the expectation is the builder will adhere to the published 
>> specifications.  In that context, it's a reasonable expectation.  Obviously 
>> that doesn't work really well for retrofitting onto an existing frame made 
>> with any old whimsical canti post spacing.  However, it's not too likely 
>> you'd be putting brakes that cost that much on such a frame in the first 
>> place.
>> On 4/15/19 3:21 PM, Garth wrote:
>>
>> -- 
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> Steve Palincsar
> Alexandria, Virginia 
> USA
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: What're the best cantilever brakes out there?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Hi Will. Yes, I've been rolling with the tektro 720's on my 26in road bike for 
a few years, been through a couple of sets of Koolstops. Steve, they do have 
the grub screw. But it's not necessary to use it.

I think there are lots of variables that makes for such a wide variety of 
opinions. The two main ones in my estimation would be brake setup and user 
expectation.

n Monday, April 15, 2019 at 8:56:05 PM UTC-4, William deRosset wrote:
> Dear Mark,
> 
> Tektro cr720's are a fine enough brake, and when set up properly, work as 
> well as any. They have the significant advantage of using orbital brake pads 
> and slotted pad holder mounts that greatly simplify setup. Just replace the 
> astonishingly bad Tektro brake blocks with Kool-Stop Salmon pads
> Also, the hardware on the brake is less-than-beautifully finished, if 
> functional. 
> 
> They punch well above their $45/bike price. Add $12 for Salmon pads up front.
> 
> If cost is no object, then the RH brakes work well in my experience. They are 
> lovely as well.
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Will
> William M deRosset
> Fort Collins CO USA

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Re: [RBW] Re: What're the best cantilever brakes out there?

[Drw]

This conversation will have a million opinions. The tektros, in my opinion, are 
satisfactory at best. I haven’t tried the compass ones so I won’t weigh in. I 
will say that the Shimanos seem most intuitively strong and set upable out of 
the box. I’m not a giant fan of the Paul spring adjustment things (if other 
brakes don’t need them, I’m not sure why Paul’s do) though I’ll say If you want 
extreme power and a true quick release to open the arms for fat tires, Paul 
motolites are the best. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: What're the best cantilever brakes out there?

[Steve Palincsar]

Do the Tektros use one of those grub screws to anchor the straddle cable?

On 4/15/19 8:56 PM, William deRosset wrote:

Dear Mark,

Tektro cr720's are a fine enough brake, and when set up properly, work as well 
as any. They have the significant advantage of using orbital brake pads and 
slotted pad holder mounts that greatly simplify setup. Just replace the 
astonishingly bad Tektro brake blocks with Kool-Stop Salmon pads
Also, the hardware on the brake is less-than-beautifully finished, if 
functional.

They punch well above their $45/bike price. Add $12 for Salmon pads up front.

If cost is no object, then the RH brakes work well in my experience. They are 
lovely as well.

Best Regards,

Will
William M deRosset
Fort Collins CO USA


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Alexandria, Virginia
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Re: [RBW] Re: What're the best cantilever brakes out there?

[William deRosset]

Dear Mark,

Tektro cr720's are a fine enough brake, and when set up properly, work as well 
as any. They have the significant advantage of using orbital brake pads and 
slotted pad holder mounts that greatly simplify setup. Just replace the 
astonishingly bad Tektro brake blocks with Kool-Stop Salmon pads
Also, the hardware on the brake is less-than-beautifully finished, if 
functional. 

They punch well above their $45/bike price. Add $12 for Salmon pads up front.

If cost is no object, then the RH brakes work well in my experience. They are 
lovely as well.

Best Regards,

Will
William M deRosset
Fort Collins CO USA

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Re: [RBW] Re: What're the best cantilever brakes out there?

[Steve Palincsar]

Absolutely.  I was enchanted with it from the moment I first saw it at 
the Classic Rendezvous Weekend last May.  I know Peter Weigle loves the 
Mafac cantilevers, but he's told me he was pleasantly surprised - and 
very surprised indeed because the geometry is identical - at how much 
better the Herse brakes perform than the Mafacs.  And he's someone who 
knows how to get the best out of Mafacs.


On 4/15/19 8:22 PM, 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch wrote:

Beautiful bike, Steve. Built for the RH, and vice versa.


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Re: [RBW] Re: What're the best cantilever brakes out there?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

James: I appreciate strong opinions, but I think saying that wide profile 
should be "discounted" for everything unless you are, to use a derogatory term, 
doing a "reenactment" is silly. My CR720s work just fine, as do my Dia Compe 
and Mafac wide profile brakes. I would guess you'll find other folks on this 
list that have a similar experience.

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Re: [RBW] Re: What're the best cantilever brakes out there?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Beautiful bike, Steve. Built for the RH, and vice versa.

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Re: [RBW] Re: What're the best cantilever brakes out there?

[Garth]

Sorry, I can't dumb it down any more. I'm out. 



On Monday, April 15, 2019 at 5:03:29 PM UTC-4, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
> So because there is a different standard for bottom bracket threading to 
> British, British BB threading is no longer a standard?
>
> If you want to use the Herse brakes, distance between posts should be: 62 
> - 84 mm.  According to discussions I've seen on the forums, back in the 
> heyday of cantilever brakes on MTBs Shimano decreed that posts would be 
> 80mm apart.  Evidently in the past (perhaps even distant past) that spacing 
> had been 60.  The modern standard is 80mm, and it's said all the brakes 
> designed in the last 25 years are built for that.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: What're the best cantilever brakes out there?

[Steve Palincsar]

So because there is a different standard for bottom bracket threading to 
British, British BB threading is no longer a standard?


If you want to use the Herse brakes, distance between posts should be: 
62 - 84 mm.  According to discussions I've seen on the forums, back in 
the heyday of cantilever brakes on MTBs Shimano decreed that posts would 
be 80mm apart.  Evidently in the past (perhaps even distant past) that 
spacing had been 60. The modern standard is 80mm, and it's said all the 
brakes designed in the last 25 years are built for that.


On 4/15/19 4:52 PM, Garth wrote:


Sorry Steve, no standard. A standard to be a standard must be 
universal, independent of brands of parts, frame or builder. British 
BB threading, that's a standard.



On Monday, April 15, 2019 at 3:41:21 PM UTC-4, Steve Palincsar wrote:

There is a standard, it's just that not everybody has followed
it.   Most cantilever brakes try to incorporate a lot of
adjustability to compensate for that.  Since the Herse brake is
primarily intended for custom bikes, the expectation is the
builder will adhere to the published specifications.  In that
context, it's a reasonable expectation.  Obviously that doesn't
work really well for retrofitting onto an existing frame made with
any old whimsical canti post spacing.  However, it's not too
likely you'd be putting brakes that cost that much on such a frame
in the first place.

On 4/15/19 3:21 PM, Garth wrote:

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Re: [RBW] Re: What're the best cantilever brakes out there?

[Garth]

Sorry Steve, no standard. A standard to be a standard must be universal, 
independent of brands of parts, frame or builder. British BB threading, 
that's a standard. 


On Monday, April 15, 2019 at 3:41:21 PM UTC-4, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
> There is a standard, it's just that not everybody has followed it.   Most 
> cantilever brakes try to incorporate a lot of adjustability to compensate 
> for that.  Since the Herse brake is primarily intended for custom bikes, 
> the expectation is the builder will adhere to the published 
> specifications.  In that context, it's a reasonable expectation.  Obviously 
> that doesn't work really well for retrofitting onto an existing frame made 
> with any old whimsical canti post spacing.  However, it's not too likely 
> you'd be putting brakes that cost that much on such a frame in the first 
> place.
> On 4/15/19 3:21 PM, Garth wrote:
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: What're the best cantilever brakes out there?

[Steve Palincsar]

My latest bike has Rene Herse cantilevers. The bike is a JP Weigle, and 
it is 100.000% to spec.  Alignment is perfect.  Of course, you would 
expect that.


I took this with my flip phone the other day while out test riding.  I 
haven't actually finished 100% with the build and haven't sat down to 
photograph it.


This is the bike Peter was riding last year, and in many ways it's very 
similar to the CdM bike -- only without the most extreme weight shaving 
measures.



On 4/15/19 1:15 PM, sameness wrote:
Steve, are you using the Rene Herse cantilevers? Newer or older canti 
stud spacing? Did the pads align in the middle of the slots straight 
out of the gate?


Jeff Hagedorn
Los Angeles, CA USA


Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia
USA

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Re: [RBW] Re: What're the best cantilever brakes out there?

[David Hays]

I just put them on mine and they fit quite nicely and have nice finish to fit 
with an older bike.
Still having to fine tune the noise out of the front brake.
David Hays
Williamsville, New York

> On Apr 15, 2019, at 3:39 PM, EasyRider  wrote:
> 
> Another benefit of the Altus cantis is that they will work with older forks 
> that have narrower post spacing. The Bridgestone RB-T, for example.
> 
> On Monday, April 15, 2019 at 3:21:58 PM UTC-4, Garth wrote:
> 
>  I too find that price in no guarantees anything more than the expenditure 
> itself. For me the best canti per given frame is the one that works. Oh I 
> know how that sounds, but from the all the bikes I have/had with canti 
> brakes, no 2 are ever alike. For one there is no standard spacing vertically 
> or horizontally due to limitless frame designs and constructor sensibilities. 
> It's part of the canti "mystique" I suppose.
> For every "this whatever is best" ... I ask for just whom would that be best 
> for, and it seems best for none other than the claim itself, which is nobody 
> ! 
> 
> What's the canti best brake ?. Whaddaya got, let's try it  ! 
> 
> 
> Shimano BR-MC70's, M73x series , Suntour XC Pro and Tektro CR710 all have 
> worked well for me. The CR720 ...not so far... maybe on some other bike 
> they'll work. Kool Stop Salmon or black pads both work fine. I only use the 
> basic straddle carriers, the rest are good for taking up storage space it 
> seems.  I prefer posted pads too , especially in the front to clear the fork. 
> KS pads can easily be shortened with a pair of snips and a file. The pads 
> internal frame only goes back to the last notch in the rubber, allowing the 
> easy mod. Pads used to be centered in the 80's so clearance was never an 
> issue. I find not one thing beneficial about offset or even longer pads than 
> road sized.
> 
> Thanks for the heads up about the Altus canti James, I may get a set.  It's 
> funny how "low end" parts can be overlooked, when they're often quite fine. 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: What're the best cantilever brakes out there?

[Steve Palincsar]

There is a standard, it's just that not everybody has followed it.   
Most cantilever brakes try to incorporate a lot of adjustability to 
compensate for that. Since the Herse brake is primarily intended for 
custom bikes, the expectation is the builder will adhere to the 
published specifications.  In that context, it's a reasonable 
expectation.  Obviously that doesn't work really well for retrofitting 
onto an existing frame made with any old whimsical canti post spacing.  
However, it's not too likely you'd be putting brakes that cost that much 
on such a frame in the first place.


On 4/15/19 3:21 PM, Garth wrote:


 I too find that price in no guarantees anything more than the 
expenditure itself. For me the best canti per given frame is the one 
that works. Oh I know how that sounds, but from the all the bikes I 
have/had with canti brakes, no 2 are ever alike. For one there is no 
standard spacing vertically or horizontally due to limitless frame 
designs and constructor sensibilities. It's part of the canti 
"mystique" I suppose.
For every "this /whatever/ is best" ... I ask for just whom would that 
be best for, and it seems best for none other than the claim itself, 
which is nobody !


What's the canti best brake ?. /Whaddaya got, let's try it  !
/
/
/
/
/
Shimano BR-MC70's, M73x series , Suntour XC Pro and Tektro CR710 all 
have worked well for me. The CR720 ...not so far... maybe on some 
other bike they'll work. Kool Stop Salmon or black pads both work 
fine. I only use the basic straddle carriers, the rest are good for 
taking up storage space it seems.  I prefer posted pads too , 
especially in the front to clear the fork. KS pads can easily be 
shortened with a pair of snips and a file. The pads internal frame 
only goes back to the last notch in the rubber, allowing the easy mod. 
Pads used to be centered in the 80's so clearance was never an issue. 
I find not one thing beneficial about offset or even longer pads than 
road sized.


Thanks for the heads up about the Altus canti James, I may get a set.  
It's funny how "low end" parts can be overlooked, when they're often 
quite fine.




--
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia
USA

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[RBW] Re: What're the best cantilever brakes out there?

[EasyRider]

Another benefit of the Altus cantis is that they will work with older forks 
that have narrower post spacing. The Bridgestone RB-T, for example.

On Monday, April 15, 2019 at 3:21:58 PM UTC-4, Garth wrote:
>
>
>  I too find that price in no guarantees anything more than the expenditure 
> itself. For me the best canti per given frame is the one that works. Oh I 
> know how that sounds, but from the all the bikes I have/had with canti 
> brakes, no 2 are ever alike. For one there is no standard spacing 
> vertically or horizontally due to limitless frame designs and constructor 
> sensibilities. It's part of the canti "mystique" I suppose.
> For every "this *whatever* is best" ... I ask for just whom would that be 
> best for, and it seems best for none other than the claim itself, which is 
> nobody ! 
>
> What's the canti best brake ?. 
> *Whaddaya got, let's try it  ! *
>
>
> Shimano BR-MC70's, M73x series , Suntour XC Pro and Tektro CR710 all have 
> worked well for me. The CR720 ...not so far... maybe on some other bike 
> they'll work. Kool Stop Salmon or black pads both work fine. I only use the 
> basic straddle carriers, the rest are good for taking up storage space it 
> seems.  I prefer posted pads too , especially in the front to clear the 
> fork. KS pads can easily be shortened with a pair of snips and a file. The 
> pads internal frame only goes back to the last notch in the rubber, 
> allowing the easy mod. Pads used to be centered in the 80's so clearance 
> was never an issue. I find not one thing beneficial about offset or even 
> longer pads than road sized.
>
> Thanks for the heads up about the Altus canti James, I may get a set.  
> It's funny how "low end" parts can be overlooked, when they're often quite 
> fine. 
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: What're the best cantilever brakes out there?

[Garth]

 I too find that price in no guarantees anything more than the expenditure 
itself. For me the best canti per given frame is the one that works. Oh I 
know how that sounds, but from the all the bikes I have/had with canti 
brakes, no 2 are ever alike. For one there is no standard spacing 
vertically or horizontally due to limitless frame designs and constructor 
sensibilities. It's part of the canti "mystique" I suppose.
For every "this *whatever* is best" ... I ask for just whom would that be 
best for, and it seems best for none other than the claim itself, which is 
nobody ! 

What's the canti best brake ?. 
*Whaddaya got, let's try it  ! *


Shimano BR-MC70's, M73x series , Suntour XC Pro and Tektro CR710 all have 
worked well for me. The CR720 ...not so far... maybe on some other bike 
they'll work. Kool Stop Salmon or black pads both work fine. I only use the 
basic straddle carriers, the rest are good for taking up storage space it 
seems.  I prefer posted pads too , especially in the front to clear the 
fork. KS pads can easily be shortened with a pair of snips and a file. The 
pads internal frame only goes back to the last notch in the rubber, 
allowing the easy mod. Pads used to be centered in the 80's so clearance 
was never an issue. I find not one thing beneficial about offset or even 
longer pads than road sized.

Thanks for the heads up about the Altus canti James, I may get a set.  It's 
funny how "low end" parts can be overlooked, when they're often quite fine. 


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[RBW] Re: What're the best cantilever brakes out there?

[Clayton.sf]

Another nice set of Cantis were the recent iteration Campagnolo put out. I 
believe they were made for them by Tektro.

They are the best cantis I have ever uses and I continue to have them on 2 
bikes (have used Pauls, Shimano, Empella, Mafac in the past). I don't think 
they are in production anymore but you might get lucky used.

Here the model I am referring to (not my listing or anyone I know): 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Campagnolo-CX-cantilever-brakes-black-good-condition/254200384346?hash=item3b2f860b5a:g:RVkAAOSw1LdctCdQ

Best,
Clayton Scott
HBG, CA






On Sunday, April 14, 2019 at 5:00:01 PM UTC-7, Erik Wright wrote:
>
> I'm thinking about getting canti posts brazed onto my sidepull Sam 
> Hillborne to fit a wider tire / make wide tire installation easier. Canti 
> brakes would be replacing Paul Racers.
>
> If I go this route, what are the best options out there? I figure top of 
> the line is Paul, but what's a more affordable brake? I see a lot of 
> chatter around Shimano CX70, but hear they're discontinued. Is there a 
> comparable option available now, or does it make sense to hunt down a used 
> set of CX70s? If I splurge on Neo Retros, am I gaining anything 
> functionally over other options?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Erik, Philly
>

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[RBW] Re: What're the best cantilever brakes out there?

[EasyRider]

Erik, 

If I understand you, what you want is a brake that will allow you to run 
wider tires than you have now, and remove your wheels without deflating 
your tires. Everyone has their favorite brake, but if it doesn't open up 
far enough to do those things, it won't be your favorite brake, right?

In other words, not every brake/tire combo may suit your purpose. For 
example, the Riv product page for the Dia-Compe 980s says, "Compared to the 
Shimano CX-50? The CX-50 is a less attractive brake, but works great and 
opens up further to let out a fatter tire easier--which is why we recommend 
this Dia-Compe for tires up to 45mm only."


Pete
Arlington, VA


On Sunday, April 14, 2019 at 8:00:01 PM UTC-4, Erik Wright wrote

> I'm thinking about getting canti posts brazed onto my sidepull Sam 
> Hillborne to fit a wider tire / make wide tire installation easier. Canti 
> brakes would be replacing Paul Racers.
>
> If I go this route, what are the best options out there? I figure top of 
> the line is Paul, but what's a more affordable brake? I see a lot of 
> chatter around Shimano CX70, but hear they're discontinued. Is there a 
> comparable option available now, or does it make sense to hunt down a used 
> set of CX70s? If I splurge on Neo Retros, am I gaining anything 
> functionally over other options?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Erik, Philly
>

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[RBW] Re: What're the best cantilever brakes out there?

[sameness]

Steve, are you using the Rene Herse cantilevers? Newer or older canti stud 
spacing? Did the pads align in the middle of the slots straight out of the 
gate?

Jeff Hagedorn
Los Angeles, CA USA

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[RBW] Re: What're the best cantilever brakes out there?

[Marc Irwin]

I've been really happy with the Velo Orange Gran Cru Zeste. 

  
I've been using them for nearly 5 years and both the stopping power and 
modulation is great.


Marc

On Sunday, April 14, 2019 at 8:00:01 PM UTC-4, Erik Wright wrote:
>
> I'm thinking about getting canti posts brazed onto my sidepull Sam 
> Hillborne to fit a wider tire / make wide tire installation easier. Canti 
> brakes would be replacing Paul Racers.
>
> If I go this route, what are the best options out there? I figure top of 
> the line is Paul, but what's a more affordable brake? I see a lot of 
> chatter around Shimano CX70, but hear they're discontinued. Is there a 
> comparable option available now, or does it make sense to hunt down a used 
> set of CX70s? If I splurge on Neo Retros, am I gaining anything 
> functionally over other options?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Erik, Philly
>

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[RBW] Re: What're the best cantilever brakes out there?

[James / Analog Cycles]

I'll go out on a limb and commit heresy here.  The best current available 
Canti is a Shimano Altus or Alivio set up with Kool Stop Salmon Pads.  
They're ugly, they're tough, they're harder to adjust than a CX50, but they 
work really well and they last forever.  If you wanna get all retro, just 
get some old low profile XT brakes.  Wide profile canti's do not produce as 
much mechanical advantage / power at the rim, and so unless you wanna buy 
your brakes based on looks alone, they should be discounted.  The best 
Canti brake ever made was the Paul Stoplite, more powerful than either 
current Paul Canti.  

IRD Cafams, Paul Neo Retros, Mafac cantis, they all look great.  I love the 
way they look.  But if you just want a brake to shut up and work and be 
strong, get the Alivios!   I'd second the CX50's as the next best thing, 
after a pad swap.  Even flexy center mount center pull Racer brakes have 
more power than the wide profile design.  I switched between the two and 
was stoked by how much better the Racer felt, which is odd, given the 
flexier nature of the mounting system.  

-james

On Sunday, April 14, 2019 at 8:00:01 PM UTC-4, Erik Wright wrote:
>
> I'm thinking about getting canti posts brazed onto my sidepull Sam 
> Hillborne to fit a wider tire / make wide tire installation easier. Canti 
> brakes would be replacing Paul Racers.
>
> If I go this route, what are the best options out there? I figure top of 
> the line is Paul, but what's a more affordable brake? I see a lot of 
> chatter around Shimano CX70, but hear they're discontinued. Is there a 
> comparable option available now, or does it make sense to hunt down a used 
> set of CX70s? If I splurge on Neo Retros, am I gaining anything 
> functionally over other options?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Erik, Philly
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: What're the best cantilever brakes out there?

[Steve Palincsar]

On 4/15/19 9:53 AM, Dave Grossman wrote:

Hey Erik,

You are going to get a million opinions but Pauls are really easier 
than all other canti's to setup.  The mechanism they use to control 
spring tension is just so easy to adjust. I also think getting some 
good Kool Stop pads makes a huge difference.




No adjustment required and no mechanism for adjustment because none is 
required beats Paul's system every time.


Image result for rene herse cantilever brake


--
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia
USA

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[RBW] Re: What're the best cantilever brakes out there?

[Jonathan K.]

I haven't used the pricier cantilevers from Rene Herse or Paul, so I can't 
compare to those, but I did install a new set of CX50s on my Sam. They work 
great. I had been running a set of Avid V brakes, and switched solely 
because I wanted to use different set of levers that worked better with my 
Albastache bars. The CX50s were easy to set up and stop every bit as well 
as the v brakes they replaced. They have a much better feel at the lever, 
though, compared to the v brakes. 

It is my understanding that the only difference between the CX50 and CX70 
are the color and the included pad holder on the CX70. So, you could 
essentially turn the 50 into a 70 by purchasing a pad holder after the 
original pads wear out.

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[RBW] Re: What're the best cantilever brakes out there?

[Dave Grossman]

Hey Erik,

You are going to get a million opinions but Pauls are really easier than 
all other canti's to setup.  The mechanism they use to control spring 
tension is just so easy to adjust.  I also think getting some good Kool 
Stop pads makes a huge difference.

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