Re: [RBW] Re: Black cyclists

[Daniel D.]

I'm a geeky chinese guy, started cycling early nineties when I was really 
out of shape.  Heard about mtb's, bought a bike and started pedaling.  
People of color are "being shut out"?  Interested in biking? Buy a bike and 
start pedaling.  Nothing is preventing anyone from doing that. 

On Friday, June 14, 2019 at 7:02:57 PM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Dave, your assertion that "nobody is being shut out" is ridiculous. The 
> implication is that society is all cool for everybody, and we all as 
> cultures just happen to choose different things. That's something a white 
> person would think, and literally no one else. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Black cyclists

[Daniel D.]

I'm a geeky chinese guy, started cycling early nineties when I was really 
out of shape.  Heard about mtb's, bought a bike and started pedaling.  I 
don't think any people of color are "being shut out".  Who exactly is 
shutting them out and how are they doing it?

On Friday, June 14, 2019 at 7:02:57 PM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Dave, your assertion that "nobody is being shut out" is ridiculous. The 
> implication is that society is all cool for everybody, and we all as 
> cultures just happen to choose different things. That's something a white 
> person would think, and literally no one else. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Black cyclists

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Foiled again! Drats.

On Friday, June 14, 2019 at 8:31:41 PM UTC-4, Dave Small wrote:
>
> Hi Mark,
>  
> I have no clue where you’re going with this, or what your point is, or 
> what your agenda is—because you obviously have one—but have fun with it. 
>  If you’re trying to get my ire up or goad me into some kind of 
> pseudo-intellectual debate on whatever it is you're talking about, then 
> you’ve failed.
>
> Dave
> Boston/Indy
>
>
> On Thursday, June 13, 2019 at 12:03:21 AM UTC-4, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>>
>> Well Dave, I thought you added a bit more than, cultural differences,and 
>> people confuse them,  that's it. You went on to add that they have their 
>> thing and you have yours and what's the big deal--"*different cultures 
>> gravitate to different things, and there's nothing wrong with it.  It's 
>> just the way it is.*"  
>>
>> It comes off as though, hey, everyone had an equal chance at this 
>> smorgasbord of different activities, and blacks gravitated to x, y, and z, 
>> not a, b, or c, because of black culture. Cool, no problem, just the way it 
>> is. 
>>
>> Except not exactly, right. Some activities were "easier" to break the 
>> racial barrier in, some, not so "easy." To my ears your statement is 
>> cavalier. To say that I "peeled layers to tease out some specific factors" 
>> is a bit disingenuous, making it sound like semantic contortions were 
>> necessary to make some fairly obvious points. Any meaningful discussions of 
>> race are going to mostly encompass "culture," not genetic differences 
>> between races.
>>
>> No, you did not say black people don't like riding bikes. You said *"So 
>> there aren't many black cyclists---so what?  It's not their thing.  They 
>> have other things."*
>>
>> You mentioned Grant's "issue" with this, but said you don't share his 
>> concern. Grant is a public person who runs a company that presents a 
>> certain image to the world. So he is in a different position. He is also 
>> someone who tries to incorporate his beliefs into his business. It's a 
>> tricky thing to try to tackle the issues around race in this regard, 
>> perhaps most so when you happen to be a white guy, and it may be 
>> ill-advised and he has certainly drawn flack for his ruminations on catalog 
>> shots and reparations.
>>
>> But it's one of the ways to start some dialog, despite possible false 
>> starts or receiving ire. When I was publishing my cycling magazine in the 
>> 1990s, I thought about this a bit.  I had some variety on my cover and in 
>> my content that skewed in favor of under-represented cyclists--i.e, anyone 
>> who was not a youngish white guy**.  I never kept score, it happened mostly 
>> organically as good stories presented themselves, but looking back, the 
>> count ended up 4 white guys (two of the same guy, local legend Mike 
>> McCarthy) 5 white females, 4 black guys (including Messenger 29, a comic 
>> character) 1 black girl (M29s daughter, Kyla, also a comic character), a 
>> white male-female couple, 2 Hispanic guys (on one cover) and possibly 1 
>> transgender person (which I was clueless about until someone told me later) 
>> and one crowd melting pot shot from the 5 Boro Tour.
>>
>> *(For the record, I don't have angst or guilt over being a white 
>> guy, and the little I've heard about reparations doesn't sound like a good 
>> idea or very feasible on a number of fronts)*
>>
>>
>> *Some photos of the covers and a few inside pages here: 
>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/YKsMN2sx6wgPPvjJ6 
>> *
>>
>>


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Re: [RBW] Re: Black cyclists

[Joe Bernard]

I would say what I said. The implication that all races have equal opportunity 
to do whatever they want, and there's no societal barriers that make certain 
people feel shut out of certain activities, is ridiculous. You don't see a 
prevalence of African-Americans involved in cycling because it's a not a 
welcoming environment for them. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Black cyclists

[Joe Bernard]

Dave, your assertion that "nobody is being shut out" is ridiculous. The 
implication is that society is all cool for everybody, and we all as cultures 
just happen to choose different things. That's something a white person would 
think, and literally no one else. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Black cyclists

['Dave Small' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Hi Mark,
 
I have no clue where you’re going with this, or what your point is, or what 
your agenda is—because you obviously have one—but have fun with it.  If 
you’re trying to get my ire up or goad me into some kind of 
pseudo-intellectual debate on whatever it is you're talking about, then 
you’ve failed.

Dave
Boston/Indy


On Thursday, June 13, 2019 at 12:03:21 AM UTC-4, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>
> Well Dave, I thought you added a bit more than, cultural differences,and 
> people confuse them,  that's it. You went on to add that they have their 
> thing and you have yours and what's the big deal--"*different cultures 
> gravitate to different things, and there's nothing wrong with it.  It's 
> just the way it is.*"  
>
> It comes off as though, hey, everyone had an equal chance at this 
> smorgasbord of different activities, and blacks gravitated to x, y, and z, 
> not a, b, or c, because of black culture. Cool, no problem, just the way it 
> is. 
>
> Except not exactly, right. Some activities were "easier" to break the 
> racial barrier in, some, not so "easy." To my ears your statement is 
> cavalier. To say that I "peeled layers to tease out some specific factors" 
> is a bit disingenuous, making it sound like semantic contortions were 
> necessary to make some fairly obvious points. Any meaningful discussions of 
> race are going to mostly encompass "culture," not genetic differences 
> between races.
>
> No, you did not say black people don't like riding bikes. You said *"So 
> there aren't many black cyclists---so what?  It's not their thing.  They 
> have other things."*
>
> You mentioned Grant's "issue" with this, but said you don't share his 
> concern. Grant is a public person who runs a company that presents a 
> certain image to the world. So he is in a different position. He is also 
> someone who tries to incorporate his beliefs into his business. It's a 
> tricky thing to try to tackle the issues around race in this regard, 
> perhaps most so when you happen to be a white guy, and it may be 
> ill-advised and he has certainly drawn flack for his ruminations on catalog 
> shots and reparations.
>
> But it's one of the ways to start some dialog, despite possible false 
> starts or receiving ire. When I was publishing my cycling magazine in the 
> 1990s, I thought about this a bit.  I had some variety on my cover and in 
> my content that skewed in favor of under-represented cyclists--i.e, anyone 
> who was not a youngish white guy**.  I never kept score, it happened mostly 
> organically as good stories presented themselves, but looking back, the 
> count ended up 4 white guys (two of the same guy, local legend Mike 
> McCarthy) 5 white females, 4 black guys (including Messenger 29, a comic 
> character) 1 black girl (M29s daughter, Kyla, also a comic character), a 
> white male-female couple, 2 Hispanic guys (on one cover) and possibly 1 
> transgender person (which I was clueless about until someone told me later) 
> and one crowd melting pot shot from the 5 Boro Tour.
>
> *(For the record, I don't have angst or guilt over being a white guy, 
> and the little I've heard about reparations doesn't sound like a good idea 
> or very feasible on a number of fronts)*
>
>
> *Some photos of the covers and a few inside pages here: 
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/YKsMN2sx6wgPPvjJ6 
> *
>
>
>>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Black cyclists

[Steve Palincsar]

On 6/12/19 2:35 PM, Wilson Wilson wrote:

I made a long winded response which deleted verses posted. Here is the short version. I have found 
this amusing to read. Historically, when there are people who are viewed as " in need" 
those making issue are White. The mindset comes from the years of good and bad experience. There is 
a study which I am going to paraphrase as " we do not need your help". What it points out 
is the lack of exposure to a number of USA norms unequally distributed due to not just specifically 
race, but statistics.

To Steve, who keeps raving on about the cyclist of the DMV, those cyclist are 
mentally stuck in the Lance Armstrong age of cycling. That every moment on the 
bike is competition mindset.



That may well be true of GII and the racing clubs; it's definitely not 
true of Oxon Hill.


But regardless of their motivations, my point was simply that /they're 
there./  As opposed to those who say /they're not there because they 
like some other sport better for cultural reasons. /I think it's worth 
exploring /why/ it is that they're there when in other areas they're 
conspicuously absent.




  Their volumes at events in the surrounding area is about rewards, not just 
getting out to ride. My opinion, yeah sure- try sitting in on one of their 
group rides.



Definitely not my cup of tea; I suspect you'd be much happier on one of 
my rides, which are much more about scenery, companionship and 
interesting routes than they are about competition.   But, I don't 
expect that other riders need to share my view of what riding is about.  
While those paceline-centric or Strava KOM mindsets are nothing I'm 
comfortable with, I know there are many people who live for that sort of 
thing.  We accommodate both views in Oxon HIll.  (And, in fact, there 
are several leading lights in Oxon Hill who also ride with GII, etc.)




  I log hours of miles annually. I have invited those who head that group in 
SoMD to ride with me at distance, somewhere unfamiliar, during bad weather, or 
off road. They all run hide.



There are plenty who see me as the big risk taker because I'm willing to 
lead a ride when there's as much as a 35% chance of rain.   And let's 
not even talk about the "dangers of riding on wet roads."  But there 
again, different tastes -- and that's not wrapped up in color, those are 
equal-opportunity fears, whether they're justified or not.  (Note, here 
I am speaking specifically about rain and wet roads, not other factors 
such as hostility of the people who live in the area towards women or 
people of color.)




Also, the exclusive "Afro centric" nature of cycling together is not appealing 
to me.



I don't know those groups well enough to know whether it's actually 
"exclusive 'Afro centric'" or just "mostly."  Obviously, Black Ski's 
name speaks for itself, but I'm pretty sure GII has a mix of riders 
based on my fleeting recollections.  However, on centuries my attention 
is for obvious reasons focused elsewhere rather than taking note of the 
demographics of the groups that pass me.




I feel for the woman of color who find interest in cycling in the area. They 
can be seen riding with a similar ignorant confidence. What is the largest 
danger is the lack of education to the real bike and vehicular laws. The bike 
shop in Waldorf has gone leaps and bounds to treat anyone who walks in the door 
without pause for years. I gained respect for cycling thanks to the folks who 
worked there years ago. Now that place is its own thing.



I agree, their success is well deserved.   Everyone who shops at a bike 
shop deserves respect, and it's no surprise that treating customers with 
respect generates loyalty.


I do have to take issue with your broad characterization of cycling 
women of color: those I know personally are anything but ignorant.



--
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia
USA

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Re: [RBW] Re: Black cyclists

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Well Dave, I thought you added a bit more than, cultural differences,and 
people confuse them,  that's it. You went on to add that they have their 
thing and you have yours and what's the big deal--"*different cultures 
gravitate to different things, and there's nothing wrong with it.  It's 
just the way it is.*"  

It comes off as though, hey, everyone had an equal chance at this 
smorgasbord of different activities, and blacks gravitated to x, y, and z, 
not a, b, or c, because of black culture. Cool, no problem, just the way it 
is. 

Except not exactly, right. Some activities were "easier" to break the 
racial barrier in, some, not so "easy." To my ears your statement is 
cavalier. To say that I "peeled layers to tease out some specific factors" 
is a bit disingenuous, making it sound like semantic contortions were 
necessary to make some fairly obvious points. Any meaningful discussions of 
race are going to mostly encompass "culture," not genetic differences 
between races.

No, you did not say black people don't like riding bikes. You said *"So 
there aren't many black cyclists---so what?  It's not their thing.  They 
have other things."*

You mentioned Grant's "issue" with this, but said you don't share his 
concern. Grant is a public person who runs a company that presents a 
certain image to the world. So he is in a different position. He is also 
someone who tries to incorporate his beliefs into his business. It's a 
tricky thing to try to tackle the issues around race in this regard, 
perhaps most so when you happen to be a white guy, and it may be 
ill-advised and he has certainly drawn flack for his ruminations on catalog 
shots and reparations.

But it's one of the ways to start some dialog, despite possible false 
starts or receiving ire. When I was publishing my cycling magazine in the 
1990s, I thought about this a bit.  I had some variety on my cover and in 
my content that skewed in favor of under-represented cyclists--i.e, anyone 
who was not a youngish white guy**.  I never kept score, it happened mostly 
organically as good stories presented themselves, but looking back, the 
count ended up 4 white guys (two of the same guy, local legend Mike 
McCarthy) 5 white females, 4 black guys (including Messenger 29, a comic 
character) 1 black girl (M29s daughter, Kyla, also a comic character), a 
white male-female couple, 2 Hispanic guys (on one cover) and possibly 1 
transgender person (which I was clueless about until someone told me later) 
and one crowd melting pot shot from the 5 Boro Tour.

*(For the record, I don't have angst or guilt over being a white guy, 
and the little I've heard about reparations doesn't sound like a good idea 
or very feasible on a number of fronts)*


*Some photos of the covers and a few inside pages here: 
https://photos.app.goo.gl/YKsMN2sx6wgPPvjJ6 
*

On Wednesday, June 12, 2019 at 9:24:23 PM UTC-4, Dave Small wrote:
>
> Hi Mark,
>
> My stance is that differences attributed to race are often differences in 
> culture.  That's it.  They're cultural differences, not racial differences. 
>  You peeled a couple of layers away from that to tease out some specific 
> factors that might *create* cultural differences, and I don't disagree 
> with them.  Your points about football and basketball versus golf et al. 
> are good ones and are probably valid, but my point wasn't to dissect the 
> *reasons* for differences, only to point out that they *exist* and that 
> people confuse them.  
>

No 

>
> Interesting, by the way, that you mentioned Major Taylor given his 
> environment growing up.  A lone example doesn't prove anything, but it's 
> consistent with my premise.
>
> By the way, I didn't say black people don't like riding bikes, but I think 
> you already know that.  
>
> Dave
> Boston/Indy
> 
>
> On Wednesday, June 12, 2019 at 6:53:12 AM UTC-4, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>>
>>
>> Dave Small wrote:
>> *"**The purported paucity of black cyclists is a cultural phenomenon, 
>> not a racial phenomenonSo there aren't many black cyclists---so what? 
>>  It's not their thing.  They have other things.  Their things aren't my 
>> things, and they're not trying to get me involved in their things because 
>> they're their things and they don't care that they're not my things, 
>> too  It's just the way it is..."*
>>
>> So your stance is, black people as a group just don't like riding bikes, 
>> because, "black culture". Maybe. But you have to take into account the fact 
>> that "cultures" overlap, interact, and affect one another when they exist 
>> in the same country--a country that for a portion of its history allowed 
>> members of one race to own members of another race. The first iteration of 
>> the League of American Wheelmen banned non-white cyclists in 1894, in part 
>> due to the success of Major Taylor.  
>>
>> *"Most NBA and NFL players are black, but few hockey players, race car 
>> drivers, or 

Re: [RBW] Re: Black cyclists

['Dave Small' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Hi Mark,

My stance is that differences attributed to race are often differences in 
culture.  That's it.  They're cultural differences, not racial differences. 
 You peeled a couple of layers away from that to tease out some specific 
factors that might *create* cultural differences, and I don't disagree with 
them.  Your points about football and basketball versus golf et al. are 
good ones and are probably valid, but my point wasn't to dissect the 
*reasons* for differences, only to point out that they *exist* and that 
people confuse them.  

Interesting, by the way, that you mentioned Major Taylor given his 
environment growing up.  A lone example doesn't prove anything, but it's 
consistent with my premise.

By the way, I didn't say black people don't like riding bikes, but I think 
you already know that.  

Dave
Boston/Indy


On Wednesday, June 12, 2019 at 6:53:12 AM UTC-4, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>
>
> Dave Small wrote:
> *"**The purported paucity of black cyclists is a cultural phenomenon, not 
> a racial phenomenonSo there aren't many black cyclists---so what?  It's 
> not their thing.  They have other things.  Their things aren't my things, 
> and they're not trying to get me involved in their things because they're 
> their things and they don't care that they're not my things, too  It's 
> just the way it is..."*
>
> So your stance is, black people as a group just don't like riding bikes, 
> because, "black culture". Maybe. But you have to take into account the fact 
> that "cultures" overlap, interact, and affect one another when they exist 
> in the same country--a country that for a portion of its history allowed 
> members of one race to own members of another race. The first iteration of 
> the League of American Wheelmen banned non-white cyclists in 1894, in part 
> due to the success of Major Taylor.  
>
> *"Most NBA and NFL players are black, but few hockey players, race car 
> drivers, or professional golfers are"*
>
> Again, your supposition is this is because blacks in general just don't 
> care much for hockey, car racing, or golf.  However, basketball and 
> football are public school sports, and can also be played with a minimum of 
> equipment outside of institutional settings. Hockey and golf are 
> historically more the purview of prep schools. The economic opportunities 
> that blacks have often been excluded from mean they are not as 
> well-represented at these private institutions. Race car driving has a 
> strong Southern background, which may or may not mean something. I bet you 
> could look into it. Golf has an interesting "cultural" past that may have 
> influenced black culture in the U.S.: 
> https://www.complex.com/sports/2011/06/the-most-racist-moments-in-golf-history/kelly-tilghman
>  
>
>
> Still seems to be happening in places: 
>
> https://www.golf.com/tour-news/2018/04/26/fallout-continues-alleged-discriminatory-golf-course-incident
>
>
> *Really, there's much ado about nothing here. ..*
>
> Well, I would not speak for others as to whether or not this is true. 
> Perhaps you are right. I think discussions about race are a good thing. But 
> probably more useful when everyone is at the table.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Black cyclists

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I thought it was clear since I quoted the text that I was responding to one 
particular post on the thread. I was just pointing out that "black culture" in 
the US was formed partly in response to the culture and other circumstances 
around it. 

When I lived in NYC, I was involved in several cycling subcultures and knew a 
number of black cyclists. I don't think their numbers were in any kind of ratio 
to the general population, with the possible exception of bike Messengers. 
That's my interpretation of my observations. I've ridden with only a couple of 
black cyclist since moving to the Hudson Valley. I couldn't really comment on 
the scene in Maryland, which is why I didn't. (Isn't chopped liver basically 
pate? Yum.)

On Wednesday, June 12, 2019 at 8:31:45 AM UTC-4, Steve Palincsar wrote:
> And my observation that at least in Southern
> Maryland, there are plenty of black cyclists, but that in
> general they're most often found in groups that are largely made
> up of other black cyclists, that's to be dismissed as
> "anecdotal" and it's just chopped liver, right?
> 
> 
> 
> On 6/12/19 6:53 AM, 'Mark in Beacon'
>   via RBW Owners Bunch wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>   
>   
> 
> 
> Dave Small wrote:
> 
> "The purported paucity of black
> cyclists is a cultural phenomenon, not a racial
> phenomenonSo there aren't many black cyclists---so what?
>  It's not their thing.  They have other things.  Their
> things aren't my things, and they're not trying to get me
> involved in their things because they're their things and
> they don't care that they're not my things, too  It's
> just the way it is..."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So your stance is, black people as a group just don't like
>   riding bikes, because, "black culture". Maybe. But you have to
>   take into account the fact that "cultures" overlap, interact,
>   and affect one another when they exist in the same country--a
>   country that for a portion of its history allowed members of
>   one race to own members of another race. The first iteration
>   of the League of American Wheelmen banned non-white cyclists
>   in 1894, in part due to the success of Major Taylor.  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Most NBA and NFL players are black, but few hockey
> players, race car drivers, or professional golfers are"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, your supposition is this is because blacks in
>   general just don't care much for hockey, car racing, or golf. 
>   However, basketball and football are public school sports, and
>   can also be played with a minimum of equipment outside of
>   institutional settings. Hockey and golf are historically more
>   the purview of prep schools. The economic opportunities that
>   blacks have often been excluded from mean they are not as
>   well-represented at these private institutions. Race car
>   driving has a strong Southern background, which may or may not
>   mean something. I bet you could look into it. Golf has an
>   interesting "cultural" past that may have influenced black
>   culture in the U.S.: 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.complex.com/sports/2011/06/the-most-racist-moments-in-golf-history/kelly-tilghman
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Still seems to be happening in places: 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.golf.com/tour-news/2018/04/26/fallout-continues-alleged-discriminatory-golf-course-incident
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> Really, there's much ado about nothing here. ..
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
>   
>   
> Well, I would not speak for others as to whether or not
> this is true. Perhaps you are right. I think discussions
> about race are a good thing. But probably more useful when
> everyone is at the table.
> 
>   
> 
> -- 
> 
> Steve Palincsar
> Alexandria, Virginia 
> USA

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Re: [RBW] Re: Black cyclists

[Steve Palincsar]

And my observation that at least in Southern Maryland, there are plenty 
of black cyclists, but that in general they're most often found in 
groups that are largely made up of other black cyclists, that's to be 
dismissed as "anecdotal" and it's just chopped liver, right?


On 6/12/19 6:53 AM, 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch wrote:


Dave Small wrote:
/"//The purported paucity of black cyclists is a cultural phenomenon, 
not a racial phenomenonSo there aren't many black cyclists---so 
what?  It's not their thing.  They have other things.  Their things 
aren't my things, and they're not trying to get me involved in their 
things because they're their things and they don't care that they're 
not my things, too  It's just the way it is..."/


So your stance is, black people as a group just don't like riding 
bikes, because, "black culture". Maybe. But you have to take into 
account the fact that "cultures" overlap, interact, and affect one 
another when they exist in the same country--a country that for a 
portion of its history allowed members of one race to own members of 
another race. The first iteration of the League of American Wheelmen 
banned non-white cyclists in 1894, in part due to the success of Major 
Taylor.


/"Most NBA and NFL players are black, but few hockey players, race car 
drivers, or professional golfers are"/


Again, your supposition is this is because blacks in general just 
don't care much for hockey, car racing, or golf. However, basketball 
and football are public school sports, and can also be played with a 
minimum of equipment outside of institutional settings. Hockey and 
golf are historically more the purview of prep schools. The economic 
opportunities that blacks have often been excluded from mean they are 
not as well-represented at these private institutions. Race car 
driving has a strong Southern background, which may or may not mean 
something. I bet you could look into it. Golf has an interesting 
"cultural" past that may have influenced black culture in the U.S.:
https://www.complex.com/sports/2011/06/the-most-racist-moments-in-golf-history/kelly-tilghman 



Still seems to be happening in places:
https://www.golf.com/tour-news/2018/04/26/fallout-continues-alleged-discriminatory-golf-course-incident

/Really, there's much ado about nothing here. ..
/

Well, I would not speak for others as to whether or not this is true. 
Perhaps you are right. I think discussions about race are a good 
thing. But probably more useful when everyone is at the table.

--


Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia
USA

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Re: [RBW] Re: Black cyclists

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Dave Small wrote:
*"**The purported paucity of black cyclists is a cultural phenomenon, not a 
racial phenomenonSo there aren't many black cyclists---so what?  It's 
not their thing.  They have other things.  Their things aren't my things, 
and they're not trying to get me involved in their things because they're 
their things and they don't care that they're not my things, too  It's 
just the way it is..."*

So your stance is, black people as a group just don't like riding bikes, 
because, "black culture". Maybe. But you have to take into account the fact 
that "cultures" overlap, interact, and affect one another when they exist 
in the same country--a country that for a portion of its history allowed 
members of one race to own members of another race. The first iteration of 
the League of American Wheelmen banned non-white cyclists in 1894, in part 
due to the success of Major Taylor.  

*"Most NBA and NFL players are black, but few hockey players, race car 
drivers, or professional golfers are"*

Again, your supposition is this is because blacks in general just don't 
care much for hockey, car racing, or golf.  However, basketball and 
football are public school sports, and can also be played with a minimum of 
equipment outside of institutional settings. Hockey and golf are 
historically more the purview of prep schools. The economic opportunities 
that blacks have often been excluded from mean they are not as 
well-represented at these private institutions. Race car driving has a 
strong Southern background, which may or may not mean something. I bet you 
could look into it. Golf has an interesting "cultural" past that may have 
influenced black culture in the U.S.: 
https://www.complex.com/sports/2011/06/the-most-racist-moments-in-golf-history/kelly-tilghman
 


Still seems to be happening in places: 
https://www.golf.com/tour-news/2018/04/26/fallout-continues-alleged-discriminatory-golf-course-incident


*Really, there's much ado about nothing here. ..*

Well, I would not speak for others as to whether or not this is true. 
Perhaps you are right. I think discussions about race are a good thing. But 
probably more useful when everyone is at the table.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Black cyclists

[Daniel D.]

Sums up my thoughts on this kind of topic in a much more articulate manner.  I 
might have to steal it : pick.

On Tuesday, June 11, 2019 at 4:33:21 AM UTC-7, Dave Small wrote:
> These kinds of discussions confuse race with culture.  The purported paucity 
> of black cyclists is a cultural phenomenon, not a racial phenomenon.  Race is 
> genetic and affects physical characteristics, culture is learned.  We're not 
> born cyclists, we have to learn it.  
> 
> 
> So there aren't many black cyclists---so what?  It's not their thing.  They 
> have other things.  Their things aren't my things, and they're not trying to 
> get me involved in their things because they're their things and they don't 
> care that they're not my things, too.  Sociology PhD's working for 
> universities can get grant money to study these kinds of disparities and 
> publish the results and we can all read 'em with interest, but it doesn't 
> change the fact that different cultures gravitate to different things, and 
> there's nothing wrong with it.  It's just the way it is, and it's interesting 
> to know it and acknowledge it, but there's no need to "fix" it.  I know this 
> bothers Grant (there's my Riv content!), and he can have his issue with it 
> but I don't share his concern.  I'm not offended by his concern over it and I 
> don't think any less of him for it.  
> 
> 
> When I lived in California in the 90's I learned that 90% of the donut shops 
> in that state were owned by Cambodians.  Almost all of the women working in 
> manicure shops are from Vietnam.  Most NBA and NFL players are black, but few 
> hockey players, race car drivers, or professional golfers are.  In the 
> absence of limits, a large fraction of the students at top-tier US 
> universities are Asian.  These concentrations are way out of whack with the 
> groups' representation in the general population.  Why is it like that?  
> 'Cause it is, that's why, and it's fine.  Nobody's being shut out, except 
> maybe the non-Asians who can't get into the supposed "elite" universities 
> 'cause too many slots are taken up by the Asians, but the Asians get those 
> slots because they've earned them through hard work, which is a cultural 
> advantage they have over whites and blacks and Hispanics.  
> 
> 
> Really, there's much ado about nothing here.  Like Patrick, I've been kinda 
> fascinated by the concentration of certain races and nationalities in certain 
> professions ever since I learned about those California Cambodians---but as 
> an observer, not as someone who thinks it's evidence of something we need to 
> fix.   
> 
> 
> Finally, there's nothing wrong or offensive about Patrick's post.  What flows 
> to the keyboard starts in the mind, and Patrick doesn't think in a way that 
> would let him post something offensive.  Sochill.  No need for anyone to 
> get their panties in a twist over this.  
> 
> 
> Dave
> Boston/Indy

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Re: [RBW] Re: Black cyclists

['Dave Small' via RBW Owners Bunch]

These kinds of discussions confuse race with culture.  The purported 
paucity of black cyclists is a cultural phenomenon, not a racial 
phenomenon.  Race is genetic and affects physical characteristics, culture 
is learned.  We're not born cyclists, we have to learn it.  

So there aren't many black cyclists---so what?  It's not their thing.  They 
have other things.  Their things aren't my things, and they're not trying 
to get me involved in their things because they're their things and they 
don't care that they're not my things, too.  Sociology PhD's working for 
universities can get grant money to study these kinds of disparities and 
publish the results and we can all read 'em with interest, but it doesn't 
change the fact that different cultures gravitate to different things, and 
there's nothing wrong with it.  It's just the way it is, and it's 
interesting to know it and acknowledge it, but there's no need to "fix" it. 
 I know this bothers Grant (there's my Riv content!), and he can have his 
issue with it but I don't share his concern.  I'm not offended by his 
concern over it and I don't think any less of him for it.  

When I lived in California in the 90's I learned that 90% of the donut 
shops in that state were owned by Cambodians.  Almost all of the women 
working in manicure shops are from Vietnam.  Most NBA and NFL players are 
black, but few hockey players, race car drivers, or professional golfers 
are.  In the absence of limits, a large fraction of the students at 
top-tier US universities are Asian.  These concentrations are way out of 
whack with the groups' representation in the general population.  Why is it 
like that?  'Cause it is, that's why, and it's fine.  Nobody's being shut 
out, except maybe the non-Asians who can't get into the supposed "elite" 
universities 'cause too many slots are taken up by the Asians, but the 
Asians get those slots because they've earned them through hard work, which 
is a *cultural* advantage they have over whites and blacks and Hispanics.  

Really, there's much ado about nothing here.  Like Patrick, I've been kinda 
fascinated by the concentration of certain races and nationalities in 
certain professions ever since I learned about those California 
Cambodians---but as an observer, not as someone who thinks it's evidence of 
something we need to fix.   

Finally, there's nothing wrong or offensive about Patrick's post.  What 
flows to the keyboard starts in the mind, and Patrick doesn't *think* in a 
way that would let him post something offensive.  Sochill.  No need for 
anyone to get their panties in a twist over this.  

Dave
Boston/Indy

>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Black cyclists

[Patrick Moore]

Eddie: I posted my last post in some anger. I don't think it was entirely
unjustified, but besides justification there is also manners. I don't want
the topic to become *excessively* uncomfortable; though often a bit of
discomfort is good for each of us. That is certainly true of me.

All: As I said, I have a great interest in cultural and racial differences
and in the interplay between the different cultures and races. But I don't
want to single out blacks only; the article simply caught my attention and,
thinking of Grant's recent post, I posted the link and the thoughts. I was
also for a couple of recent years a (probably odd) member of a pan-Indian
cycling group (I lived and cycled in India as a boy). But as above, in
addition to one's lawful interest, there is also the matter of manners --
one doesn't make one's interlocutors uncomfortable when there is no need to
do so (there are times when other factors take precedence, but this isn't
one of them).

So I am happy to drop the subject if others find it awkward.





On Mon, Jun 10, 2019 at 5:28 AM Patrick Moore  wrote:

> I'm mixed race and grew up in Asia and Africa. I live in a multiracial
> state and married a woman from another race, My beautiful daughter is
> Chinese Filipina  English Scotts Irish with a black stepfather,
>
> I find the different races, and cultures fascinating, and I confess to
> having no scruples about my interest. I find the fear of racial differences
> foolish and a sign of weakness, and believe it leads to unfriendliness with
> people of other races.
>
> On Sun, Jun 9, 2019 at 5:06 PM eddietheflay 
> wrote:
>
>> Black people are just people. Why call them out based on the color of
>> their skin? We don't do that for stupid people, but maybe we should. I do
>> find this topic disgusting. Just to let ya know.
>>
>> On Sunday, June 9, 2019 at 9:05:00 AM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>>
>>> I anticipate that some people may find this controversial, but I'll bet
>>> they aren't black. I have no compunctions about my interest in black
>>> cyclists and in black African culture generally, so hoping the interest
>>> will outweigh the sensitivity:
>>>
>>> Black people seem to be relatively few in cycling; I say "seem" -- the
>>> reality may be different.
>>> At any rate, this is an interesting article:
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/07/nyregion/black-cyclists-red-caps-brooklyn.html
>>>
>>> I sometimes come across news of cycling in Kenya and other parts of
>>> Africa; I recall a feature about the history of cycling in -- was it Rwanda
>>> or was it Burundi? But a history going back decades and continuing despite
>>> the vicissitudes of war and politics.
>>>
>>> There's a off-and-on-and-mostly-off blog, She Cycles Nairobi, that has
>>> some interesting bits.
>>>
>>> Patrick Moore, who cut his cycling teeth on the hilly roads around
>>> Nairobi in the '60s and '70s.
>>>
>>> ... Not to mention Peter Tosh and his unicycle (and the best ever
>>> version of Johnny B Goode) ...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> **
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Still 'round the corner there may waitA new road or a secret gate,And
>>> though we pass them by today,Tomorrow we may come this wayAnd take the
>>> hidden paths that runTowards the Moon or to the Sun.*
>>> --- J.R.R. Tolkien
>>> ---
>>> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews
>>> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching
>>> Other professional writing services
>>> Expensive! But good.
>>> http://www.resumespecialties.com/
>>> Patrick Moore
>>> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique
>>>
>>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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>> 
>> .
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
>
> **
>
>
>
>
>
> *Still 'round the corner there may waitA new road or a secret gate,And
> though we pass them by today,Tomorrow we may come this wayAnd take the
> hidden paths that runTowards the Moon or to the Sun.*
> --- J.R.R. Tolkien
> ---

Re: [RBW] Re: Black cyclists

[Patrick Moore]

I'm mixed race and grew up in Asia and Africa. I live in a multiracial
state and married a woman from another race, My beautiful daughter is
Chinese Filipina  English Scotts Irish with a black stepfather,

I find the different races, and cultures fascinating, and I confess to
having no scruples about my interest. I find the fear of racial differences
foolish and a sign of weakness, and believe it leads to unfriendliness with
people of other races.

On Sun, Jun 9, 2019 at 5:06 PM eddietheflay  wrote:

> Black people are just people. Why call them out based on the color of
> their skin? We don't do that for stupid people, but maybe we should. I do
> find this topic disgusting. Just to let ya know.
>
> On Sunday, June 9, 2019 at 9:05:00 AM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>> I anticipate that some people may find this controversial, but I'll bet
>> they aren't black. I have no compunctions about my interest in black
>> cyclists and in black African culture generally, so hoping the interest
>> will outweigh the sensitivity:
>>
>> Black people seem to be relatively few in cycling; I say "seem" -- the
>> reality may be different.
>> At any rate, this is an interesting article:
>>
>>
>> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/07/nyregion/black-cyclists-red-caps-brooklyn.html
>>
>> I sometimes come across news of cycling in Kenya and other parts of
>> Africa; I recall a feature about the history of cycling in -- was it Rwanda
>> or was it Burundi? But a history going back decades and continuing despite
>> the vicissitudes of war and politics.
>>
>> There's a off-and-on-and-mostly-off blog, She Cycles Nairobi, that has
>> some interesting bits.
>>
>> Patrick Moore, who cut his cycling teeth on the hilly roads around
>> Nairobi in the '60s and '70s.
>>
>> ... Not to mention Peter Tosh and his unicycle (and the best ever version
>> of Johnny B Goode) ...
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> **
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *Still 'round the corner there may waitA new road or a secret gate,And
>> though we pass them by today,Tomorrow we may come this wayAnd take the
>> hidden paths that runTowards the Moon or to the Sun.*
>> --- J.R.R. Tolkien
>> ---
>> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews
>> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching
>> Other professional writing services
>> Expensive! But good.
>> http://www.resumespecialties.com/
>> Patrick Moore
>> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique
>>
>> --
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> .
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>


-- 



**





*Still 'round the corner there may waitA new road or a secret gate,And
though we pass them by today,Tomorrow we may come this wayAnd take the
hidden paths that runTowards the Moon or to the Sun.*
--- J.R.R. Tolkien
---
Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews
By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching
Other professional writing services
Expensive! But good.
http://www.resumespecialties.com/
Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique

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Re: [RBW] Re: Black cyclists

[Steve Palincsar]

If you're referring to my observations about the cycling scene in metro 
DC / Southern Maryland, first let's not be so quick to dismiss as 
"anecdotal".  It's unnecessary and doesn't help.  There's been no 
statistical or experimental evidence provided in this discussion and my 
observations of the large numbers of black cyclists at the Indian Head 
100 and the Rural Legacy aren't "anecdotal."


Nor are they "proof that there isn't a cultural, hierarchical, 
documented problem."  What they are is proof that things vary by 
geographic location (note, I did say /Southern Maryland/, which is 
culturally, geographically and demographically different from other 
parts of the metro DC area); evidence that in this area there are 
largely-black cycling clubs and for whatever reason -- and we can 
speculate on those reasons to our hearts' content -- that black cyclists 
may prefer to ride with such largely-black clubs; and that in at least 
one case there is a bicycle club that isn't predominantly black where 
black cyclists do feel welcome and have long held leadership positions.  
I think there are many explanations for that including geography and the 
effect of individual members and personalities: it's a small enough 
group with a small-group culture so that the actions of individuals can 
have a noticeable effect.



On 6/9/19 11:01 PM, Drw wrote:

Also not to pick a fight or anything but citing anecdotal evidence (albeit cool 
and good and positive and I’m happy all that’s happening evidence) as proof 
that there isn’t a cultural, hierarchical, documented problem is 
overgeneralization.


--
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia
USA

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Re: [RBW] Re: Black cyclists

[Drw]

Also not to pick a fight or anything but citing anecdotal evidence (albeit cool 
and good and positive and I’m happy all that’s happening evidence) as proof 
that there isn’t a cultural, hierarchical, documented problem is 
overgeneralization.  

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Re: [RBW] Re: Black cyclists

[Steve Palincsar]

On 6/9/19 9:31 PM, Drw wrote:

I agree. Nobody is calling anyone out. I think Patrick’s post is probably 
purposefully without too much description of intent, because it’s hard to not 
step in something controversial. Though I admit I don’t quite see the point 
he’s making or asking, my belief is that it comes from a genuine and inclusive 
place.

My take is that cycling is largely white for the same reasons that lacrosse or 
polo or eating brunch is largely white- privilege (and systemic purposeful and 
accidental exclusion). Acknowledging it seems like step 1A in a series of many 
many steps.



It's unwise to overgeneralize.  While it's true that the big 
recreational cycling club in the Metro DC area, Potomac Pedalers, 
doesn't seem to have many black members, we have a goodly number of 
black cyclists in Oxon Hill, the bike club I ride with; and there are a 
couple of large mostly-black cycling groups in Southern Maryland.   One 
started life as a meet-up group, currently has something like a thousand 
followers online and regularly puts on ride with 50-100 or more people 
participating. Black Ski does bike rides in the (skiing) off-season, and 
there are a couple of good sized mostly-black racing groups in the area 
too that I see mainly when they attend Oxon Hill's spring Metric century 
and annual September century.


--
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia
USA

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