Re: [RBW] Re: Cheviot (or Sam)

[Bob Lovejoy]

Scratch my HC front rack idea...  A Mark's rack it will be!

Ahh, the details...

Bob


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Re: [RBW] Re: Cheviot (or Sam)

[Bob Lovejoy]

Congrats Sean!   

Like I said, a bike that makes one smile (and remember the smile!) is a 
great thing...  I am envious of your chance to ride a Cheviot before 
ordering.  Not that I have any doubts but it would have been nice.  

My build should end up very close to yours, Tubus rear rack, Albatross 
bars, etc.  I have a Haulin' Colin front rack that might work and will be 
good for experimenting, otherwise it will be a Mark's like yours.  And I 
agree with Joe that the grey makes it possible to do a lot of subtle (or 
not) things with color and accents.

Anyway, congratulations!  May the frames arrive quickly, at least at the 
perfect time, and be destined for great rides and fun.

I will say I think I am ahead of you on the mixte issue!  I ride a yellow 
Brompton folding bike a lot, for commuting, for errands, for fun, etc. and 
with that, any sense of being seen as 100% normal faded some time ago. But 
people see how useful it is, how much fun is possible, what change can look 
like and it all works out well, mostly.  :>)

Enjoy the new (future) bike and ride!

Bob   


>
 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Cheviot (or Sam)

[Joe Bernard]

I think that bike looks great in grey. One cool thing about that color is you 
can "paint" it with bar tape, cages and cables to brighten it up later if you'd 
like. Red accents would be awesome!

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Re: [RBW] Re: Cheviot (or Sam)

[SeanMac]

I wanted to again thank everyone for their comments about the Rivendell 
Cheviot.  I'm happy to say that I did finally pull the trigger - a few days 
ago I put a deposit down on a Cheviot!  I decided to go with the grey color 
- 60 cm (my pbh is 86.  I rode a 60 Cheviot a few weeks ago and Riv HQ and 
really felt comfortable on it).  I'm really excited.

I had a hard time choosing between the orange and the grey frame.  I really 
like the orange color.  In the end, however, I decided that the grey color 
would be a bit more understated - which is probably good for a guy who 
still is not 100 % comfortable about the mixtie thing (I am about 92% okay 
with it right now).  I live in a town of less than 7,000 people - we have 
traffic, but not enough that having a bright colored bike is a huge concern.

I plan to use Albatross bars, Brooks B 17 and a front rack (Mark's) and a 
rear rack (Tubus) from a Trek 520 that I now use as my townie.  I also hope 
that I can use the wheels from that bike - they are DT Swiss touring 
wheels.  I ordered a new front and rear derailer (Shimano CX 70 for the 
front and Altus for the rear) and a Sugino XD2 wide/low crank.

Again, thanks for all of your help in making this decision.

Sean


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Re: [RBW] Re: Cheviot (or Sam)

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Is there a report that this cannibalization is actually happening? If so, 
why the company just came out with three new Chev colors is puzzling, 
though it may have something to do with long lead times--or an attempt to 
"revive" the model. I have no idea if the active members on this list 
represents the proportion of female to male Rivendell customers (doubt it 
and hope not!) but I would still think that the Clem L is a tougher sell to 
the core audience than the Cheviot. For example, you say the Chev would be 
the perfect bike if it had the Hunq fork (Clem L-check), more bottle 
braze-ons (Clem L-check) and cantis (Clem L-check). The geos are almost 
identical. Your modified Chev is..a Clem L. But the Clementine just does 
not do it for you. I get it.

Mixtes have a certain cache and following among male riders--nothing like 
the fixed gear phenomenon, but well enough established. A step through is 
another thing altogether, and while the Dutch-style city bikes are also in 
resurgence (Public has one, and claims the 7-speed derailleur version is 
its best-selling city bike), my guess is it's a much tougher sell to 
men--none of the models pictured on/with the Public Dutch bikes are men. 
For that matter, none are pictured with the mixtes either. Between that and 
the color palettes over there, obviously that smart guy from Design Within 
Reach is heavily targeting female buyers

Various Rivs have various tire clearances as part of the design parameters. 
Max tire size affects bb heights, brake options, standover (not so much a 
deal killer on Chevs, with their double sloping top tubes) and other 
handling features. I recall someone on the list placing an order for a 
custom Riv mixte. With the number of "minor" modifications you list, that 
might be the perfect bike for you. Or trade in your Clem H for an L ;^) I 
ride my Clementine to pick up my quiche. 

On Tuesday, August 16, 2016 at 7:03:31 PM UTC-4, iamkeith wrote:
>
> Kind of a shame.  If the Clem L is killing the Chev, i almost think this 
> is more of the reason than the price.  A hunq fork crown and cantis (and 
> bottle cage brazeons?) could transform the Chev into a perfect bike for me. 
>  I wonder if heel clearance would be an issue with brakes mounted on the 
> middle seat stays.  Wasn't there talk of being able to request minor 
> modifications like these and/or other colors for a small upcharge sometime 
> soon?

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Re: [RBW] Re: Cheviot (or Sam)

[iamkeith]

Kind of a shame.  If the Clem L is killing the Chev, i almost think this is 
more of the reason than the price.  A hunq fork crown and cantis (and bottle 
cage brazeons?) could transform the Chev into a perfect bike for me.  I wonder 
if heel clearance would be an issue with brakes mounted on the middle seat 
stays.  Wasn't there talk of being able to request minor modifications like 
these and/or other colors for a small upcharge sometime soon?

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Re: [RBW] Re: Cheviot (or Sam)

[iamkeith]

Kind of a shame.  If the Clem L is killing the Chev, i almost think this is 
more of the reason than the price.  A hunq fork crown and cantis (and bottle 
cage brazeons?) could transform the Chev into a perfect bike for me.  I wonder 
if heel clearance would be an issue with brakes mounted on the middle seat 
stays.  Wasn't there talk of being able to request minor modifications like 
these and/or other colors for a small upcharge sometime soon?

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Re: [RBW] Re: Cheviot (or Sam)

[Clayton.sf]

50 is about the max. 

If you are running fenders, adding a centerpull (I use diacompe) in the front 
greatly increases breathing room.

I have run 47mm with fenders on my 60cm and that was tight. 42s are preferred.

Clayton Scot
SF, CA

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Re: [RBW] Re: Cheviot (or Sam)

[Jon in central Colorado]

Brian told me that 50 was max on the Cheviot.


>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Cheviot (or Sam)

[iamkeith]

Thanks, Bob & Eric.  Not the answer i hoped for, but helpful.  

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Re: [RBW] Re: Cheviot (or Sam)

[Bob Lovejoy]

A search for "cheviot tire clearance" in this list turns up this...  Great 
build and beautiful bike!  The pictures in that post answer at least some 
of the questions.  700x50 Big Applies would seem to be about the largest 
tire that would work.  And, I suspect, with the fluctuation in actual tire 
measurements, some may work, others not.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/R3KzXAoKDSo/wh8CH1B1EgAJ

Bob


On Tuesday, August 16, 2016 at 10:39:14 AM UTC-6, iamkeith wrote:
>
> Does anybody happen to have a 60cm Chev, and would you be willing to take 
> some measurements and photos of the tire clearance?  Also (or maybe more 
> important), is the tightest spot at the fork blades or the chainstays or 
> the brakes themselves?  
>
> The last call revelation plus the new colors have me thinking about the 
> Chev again, but the clearance is tire size limit is still the thing that 
> gives me pause.  I know the Clem L solves that, but I'm not attracted to it 
> for some reason.  
>
> Is there any realistic way I'd be able to move the 2.3 Super Motos from my 
> Clem to a Chev so i can trade up?  
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Cheviot (or Sam)

[iamkeith]

Does anybody happen to have a 60cm Chev, and would you be willing to take some 
measurements and photos of the tire clearance?  Also (or maybe more important), 
is the tightest spot at the fork blades or the chainstays or the brakes 
themselves?  

The last call revelation plus the new colors have me thinking about the Chev 
again, but the clearance is tire size limit is still the thing that gives me 
pause.  I know the Clem L solves that, but I'm not attracted to it for some 
reason.  

Is there any realistic way I'd be able to move the 2.3 Super Motos from my Clem 
to a Chev so i can trade up?  

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Re: [RBW] Re: Cheviot (or Sam)

[Bob Lovejoy]

Michael,

Do you think she is possibly measuring the CS length from, say, the back of 
the BB?  I can see where measuring chain stay length has at least several 
interpretations.  I have come to measure CS length from the center of the 
BB to the rear dropout or center of the rear axle but I am definitely 
willing to be schooled on what is correct.

Just throwing it out there... Might be worth the question.

Bob

On Tuesday, August 16, 2016 at 9:17:13 AM UTC-6, Michael Hechmer wrote:
>
> I have seen what the web site states; but when I asked my daughter to 
> measure the CS on her 50 cm Cheviot, she reported 42.5.  She lives about 40 
> miles from me, but the next time I am at her home I will measure them 
> myself just to make sure we are starting at the same point.  
>
> Michael
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Cheviot (or Sam)

[Michael Hechmer]

I have seen what the web site states; but when I asked my daughter to 
measure the CS on her 50 cm Cheviot, she reported 42.5.  She lives about 40 
miles from me, but the next time I am at her home I will measure them 
myself just to make sure we are starting at the same point.  

Michael

On Tuesday, August 16, 2016 at 9:46:10 AM UTC-4, Shoji Takahashi wrote:
>
> Hi Michael,
> The Cheviot has chain stays that get longer with larger sizes. (Chart pic 
> on http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/f-cheviot.htm)
> 50cm frame -- 45cm chain stay
> 55 frame -- 50cm chain stay
> 60 frame -- 54cm chain stay
>  
> I think this is fairly unusual for a manufacturer to have different chain 
> stays for different sizes. Grant wrote about how frames get taller faster 
> than they get longer in one of the Readers. This seems a more 
> "proportionate" way to size frames-- but I don't know if it is meaningful 
> (or not). 
>
> If you're in between sizes, then this might be another thing to consider. 
>
> shoji
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, August 16, 2016 at 7:36:53 AM UTC-4, Michael Hechmer wrote:
>>
>> My wife's  55 cm Betty has 43.5 cm chain stays.  I know that the RBW site 
>> list the Cheviot at 45cm, but I couldn't see any difference when I built my 
>> daughter's bike up.  I called her and asked her to measure the chain stay 
>> on her 50 cm Cheviot and she got 16.75", which comes to 42.5.  She may be 
>> wrong but she is certainly not off by an inch.  Perhaps there was a design 
>> change since the introduction.  We bought the last of the first batch.
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> On Friday, August 12, 2016 at 7:54:52 AM UTC-4, Eric Daume wrote:
>>>
>>> They Cheviot has significantly longer stays than the Betty. It's more 
>>> than just a color and name change (that was the Yves Gomez model)
>>>
>>> On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 7:22 AM, Michael Hechmer  
>>> wrote:
>>>
 My wife has a Betty (nearly identical to a Cevy) and my daughter a 
 Cheviot and the both love them.  My daughter opted for drop bars on hers 
 and found they work quite well, so that is an option.  I suspect that the 
 changes from Betty to Chevy, which mostly consisted of color & name were 
 made to give the bike more appeal to men.  So my suggestion to be don't 
 let 
 others opinion of your testosterone level guide your choice.  You will 
 however need new wheels since your Trek is 700C & the Chevy 650B, which in 
 my mind is a big, big, plus.

 Michael

 On Tuesday, August 9, 2016 at 8:45:34 AM UTC-4, SeanMac wrote:
>
> Hi folks,
>
> I had the opportunity to spend a few hours at Riv HQ a few Saturday's 
> ago.  I had a wonderful time - I rode four bikes (Clem, Cheviot, Sam and 
> Hubbuhubbah), and walked away with a medium saddlesack bag.  Still smile 
> when I think about the fun I had.  Most of my riding (about an hour) was 
> done on the Clem.  I enjoyed the ride, but it did not really speak to me. 
>  
> Perhaps it was just too different from the bikes that I typically ride.  
> Strangely enough, the bike that emerged as my favorite was the Cheviot.  
> I 
> can't seem to get it out of my head.  In fact, ever since I returned 
> home, 
> I have been trying to figure out if I loved the Chev enough to purchase 
> one 
> before they go away.  Here is my situation.
>
> About ten years ago I had a custom-built Bob Brown Cycle made for me.  
> I nearly bought a Rambouillet, but chose Bob Brown instead.  It was my 
> poor-man's red convertible that I got for my 40th birthday.  That bike 
> complimented my circa 1990 Trek 520 quite well.  My Bob Brown was 
> quick-ish, sporty and fun to ride.  However, as the years went by, I 
> found 
> it to be increasingly uncomfortable for longer ride.  Two years ago I 
> bought a Black Mountain Road bike.  This bike has a bit more relaxed 
> geometry.  I really love this bike - it is much more comfortable than Bob 
> Brown, and has become the bike that I grab most often.  In fact, Bob 
> Brown 
> typically sees the road only once or twice a year - it is typically the 
> bike that I use on my indoor trainer.  My Trek 520 has been turned into a 
> grocery-getter.  However, it does not bring me a great deal of joy to 
> ride, 
> but it gets the job done.
>
> In my mind, I see the Cheviot as a replacement for my Trek 520.  
> Nearly all of the components that I have on the Trek would easily 
> transfer 
> to the Chev - meaning that my initial output of cash would be only for 
> the 
> frame.
>
> I've read through everything that I can find on the list about the 
> Cheviot.  I would love to hear impressions from those who have had the 
> bike 
> long term.  Likes?  Dislikes?  Dealing with the "guy on a girl's bike" 
> thing is perhaps an issue.  However, as I approach 50 I see the benefit 

Re: [RBW] Re: Cheviot (or Sam)

[Shoji Takahashi]

Hi Michael,
The Cheviot has chain stays that get longer with larger sizes. (Chart pic 
on http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/f-cheviot.htm)
50cm frame -- 45cm chain stay
55 frame -- 50cm chain stay
60 frame -- 54cm chain stay
 
I think this is fairly unusual for a manufacturer to have different chain 
stays for different sizes. Grant wrote about how frames get taller faster 
than they get longer in one of the Readers. This seems a more 
"proportionate" way to size frames-- but I don't know if it is meaningful 
(or not). 

If you're in between sizes, then this might be another thing to consider. 

shoji



On Tuesday, August 16, 2016 at 7:36:53 AM UTC-4, Michael Hechmer wrote:
>
> My wife's  55 cm Betty has 43.5 cm chain stays.  I know that the RBW site 
> list the Cheviot at 45cm, but I couldn't see any difference when I built my 
> daughter's bike up.  I called her and asked her to measure the chain stay 
> on her 50 cm Cheviot and she got 16.75", which comes to 42.5.  She may be 
> wrong but she is certainly not off by an inch.  Perhaps there was a design 
> change since the introduction.  We bought the last of the first batch.
>
> Michael
>
> On Friday, August 12, 2016 at 7:54:52 AM UTC-4, Eric Daume wrote:
>>
>> They Cheviot has significantly longer stays than the Betty. It's more 
>> than just a color and name change (that was the Yves Gomez model)
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 7:22 AM, Michael Hechmer  
>> wrote:
>>
>>> My wife has a Betty (nearly identical to a Cevy) and my daughter a 
>>> Cheviot and the both love them.  My daughter opted for drop bars on hers 
>>> and found they work quite well, so that is an option.  I suspect that the 
>>> changes from Betty to Chevy, which mostly consisted of color & name were 
>>> made to give the bike more appeal to men.  So my suggestion to be don't let 
>>> others opinion of your testosterone level guide your choice.  You will 
>>> however need new wheels since your Trek is 700C & the Chevy 650B, which in 
>>> my mind is a big, big, plus.
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, August 9, 2016 at 8:45:34 AM UTC-4, SeanMac wrote:

 Hi folks,

 I had the opportunity to spend a few hours at Riv HQ a few Saturday's 
 ago.  I had a wonderful time - I rode four bikes (Clem, Cheviot, Sam and 
 Hubbuhubbah), and walked away with a medium saddlesack bag.  Still smile 
 when I think about the fun I had.  Most of my riding (about an hour) was 
 done on the Clem.  I enjoyed the ride, but it did not really speak to me.  
 Perhaps it was just too different from the bikes that I typically ride.  
 Strangely enough, the bike that emerged as my favorite was the Cheviot.  I 
 can't seem to get it out of my head.  In fact, ever since I returned home, 
 I have been trying to figure out if I loved the Chev enough to purchase 
 one 
 before they go away.  Here is my situation.

 About ten years ago I had a custom-built Bob Brown Cycle made for me.  
 I nearly bought a Rambouillet, but chose Bob Brown instead.  It was my 
 poor-man's red convertible that I got for my 40th birthday.  That bike 
 complimented my circa 1990 Trek 520 quite well.  My Bob Brown was 
 quick-ish, sporty and fun to ride.  However, as the years went by, I found 
 it to be increasingly uncomfortable for longer ride.  Two years ago I 
 bought a Black Mountain Road bike.  This bike has a bit more relaxed 
 geometry.  I really love this bike - it is much more comfortable than Bob 
 Brown, and has become the bike that I grab most often.  In fact, Bob Brown 
 typically sees the road only once or twice a year - it is typically the 
 bike that I use on my indoor trainer.  My Trek 520 has been turned into a 
 grocery-getter.  However, it does not bring me a great deal of joy to 
 ride, 
 but it gets the job done.

 In my mind, I see the Cheviot as a replacement for my Trek 520.  Nearly 
 all of the components that I have on the Trek would easily transfer to the 
 Chev - meaning that my initial output of cash would be only for the frame.

 I've read through everything that I can find on the list about the 
 Cheviot.  I would love to hear impressions from those who have had the 
 bike 
 long term.  Likes?  Dislikes?  Dealing with the "guy on a girl's bike" 
 thing is perhaps an issue.  However, as I approach 50 I see the benefit of 
 the lower top tube.  Besides, when I rode the Cheviot in Walnut Creek, I 
 did not even think about the fact that I was riding a mixte, as I was 
 simply enjoying the ride.

 I live in a small town in western New York - with short rides (mile or 
 two) to the co-op grocery store, library, post office, etc.  This is the 
 type of riding, along with occasional paved and/or gravel path riding) 
 that 
 I see myself doing with a Cheviot.  What do you think -- good choice in 
 bikes?

Re: [RBW] Re: Cheviot (or Sam)

[Michael Hechmer]

My wife's  55 cm Betty has 43.5 cm chain stays.  I know that the RBW site 
list the Cheviot at 45cm, but I couldn't see any difference when I built my 
daughter's bike up.  I called her and asked her to measure the chain stay 
on her 50 cm Cheviot and she got 16.75", which comes to 42.5.  She may be 
wrong but she is certainly not off by an inch.  Perhaps there was a design 
change since the introduction.  We bought the last of the first batch.

Michael

On Friday, August 12, 2016 at 7:54:52 AM UTC-4, Eric Daume wrote:
>
> They Cheviot has significantly longer stays than the Betty. It's more than 
> just a color and name change (that was the Yves Gomez model)
>
> On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 7:22 AM, Michael Hechmer  > wrote:
>
>> My wife has a Betty (nearly identical to a Cevy) and my daughter a 
>> Cheviot and the both love them.  My daughter opted for drop bars on hers 
>> and found they work quite well, so that is an option.  I suspect that the 
>> changes from Betty to Chevy, which mostly consisted of color & name were 
>> made to give the bike more appeal to men.  So my suggestion to be don't let 
>> others opinion of your testosterone level guide your choice.  You will 
>> however need new wheels since your Trek is 700C & the Chevy 650B, which in 
>> my mind is a big, big, plus.
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> On Tuesday, August 9, 2016 at 8:45:34 AM UTC-4, SeanMac wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi folks,
>>>
>>> I had the opportunity to spend a few hours at Riv HQ a few Saturday's 
>>> ago.  I had a wonderful time - I rode four bikes (Clem, Cheviot, Sam and 
>>> Hubbuhubbah), and walked away with a medium saddlesack bag.  Still smile 
>>> when I think about the fun I had.  Most of my riding (about an hour) was 
>>> done on the Clem.  I enjoyed the ride, but it did not really speak to me.  
>>> Perhaps it was just too different from the bikes that I typically ride.  
>>> Strangely enough, the bike that emerged as my favorite was the Cheviot.  I 
>>> can't seem to get it out of my head.  In fact, ever since I returned home, 
>>> I have been trying to figure out if I loved the Chev enough to purchase one 
>>> before they go away.  Here is my situation.
>>>
>>> About ten years ago I had a custom-built Bob Brown Cycle made for me.  I 
>>> nearly bought a Rambouillet, but chose Bob Brown instead.  It was my 
>>> poor-man's red convertible that I got for my 40th birthday.  That bike 
>>> complimented my circa 1990 Trek 520 quite well.  My Bob Brown was 
>>> quick-ish, sporty and fun to ride.  However, as the years went by, I found 
>>> it to be increasingly uncomfortable for longer ride.  Two years ago I 
>>> bought a Black Mountain Road bike.  This bike has a bit more relaxed 
>>> geometry.  I really love this bike - it is much more comfortable than Bob 
>>> Brown, and has become the bike that I grab most often.  In fact, Bob Brown 
>>> typically sees the road only once or twice a year - it is typically the 
>>> bike that I use on my indoor trainer.  My Trek 520 has been turned into a 
>>> grocery-getter.  However, it does not bring me a great deal of joy to ride, 
>>> but it gets the job done.
>>>
>>> In my mind, I see the Cheviot as a replacement for my Trek 520.  Nearly 
>>> all of the components that I have on the Trek would easily transfer to the 
>>> Chev - meaning that my initial output of cash would be only for the frame.
>>>
>>> I've read through everything that I can find on the list about the 
>>> Cheviot.  I would love to hear impressions from those who have had the bike 
>>> long term.  Likes?  Dislikes?  Dealing with the "guy on a girl's bike" 
>>> thing is perhaps an issue.  However, as I approach 50 I see the benefit of 
>>> the lower top tube.  Besides, when I rode the Cheviot in Walnut Creek, I 
>>> did not even think about the fact that I was riding a mixte, as I was 
>>> simply enjoying the ride.
>>>
>>> I live in a small town in western New York - with short rides (mile or 
>>> two) to the co-op grocery store, library, post office, etc.  This is the 
>>> type of riding, along with occasional paved and/or gravel path riding) that 
>>> I see myself doing with a Cheviot.  What do you think -- good choice in 
>>> bikes?
>>>
>>> What about a Sam?  I rode a Sam the other day as well, but it was set up 
>>> with Noodle bars, and rode much more like a typical road bike.  If I set it 
>>> up with Albatross bars, bags, etc how would it likely compare with the 
>>> Cheviot?  Would it ride the same and put the same smile on my face without 
>>> causing me and/or those seeing me question my manliness?
>>>
>>> Any insight on these issues would be appreciated.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Sean
>>> East Aurora, NY
>>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Cheviot (or Sam)

[Sean McAtee]

Howard -

Congratulations on your frame order!  I noticed earlier today that there
were only three grey Cheviots left.  I have a funny feeling that I am going
to follow your lead before the day is over.  A Cheviot is quickly becoming
the bike that I do not want to let get away.

I can't seem to recall past practice on "older" frames when a new set
arrives.  Is it likely that the remaining "old" Cheviots in stock will be
priced a bit lower as a web special?  I do like the green color of the
current frame.  However, it lacks the cream headtube of the newer models.

I will be moving the vast majority of the parts over from an old Trek 520 -
Albastache bars, Brooks B 17 saddle, Shimano derailleurs, etc.  However, I
will need to get a new set of wheels, as my current bikes all have 130 cm
rear hub spacing.  I'm probably going to buy an inexpensive set of wheels,
such as these currently being offered by Rivendell:  wheels
.  I will also likely add
a new crank - likely the Sugino XD2 wide/low.

I am looking at using a Cheviot for the same general purposes as you.
Congratulations again.

Sean



On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 5:10 PM, Howard Hatten  wrote:

> Hi Leah
> Not sure when I'll take delivery. Sounds like frames are on the way to
> RBW.  I'm going with a frame set. Not sure how the build will end up. I
> plan to make this my grocery getter & pub crawler. Winter project I suspect.
> Howard
> Livonia Mi
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Cheviot (or Sam)

[Howard Hatten]

Hi Leah
Not sure when I'll take delivery. Sounds like frames are on the way to RBW.  
I'm going with a frame set. Not sure how the build will end up. I plan to make 
this my grocery getter & pub crawler. Winter project I suspect. 
Howard
Livonia Mi

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Re: [RBW] Re: Cheviot (or Sam)

[Leah Peterson]

Beyond excited for you. Envious, even! When do you expect to take delivery? 
Whole bike, or frame set?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 14, 2016, at 1:14 PM, Howard Hatten  wrote:
> 
> Been following this post. I've been trying to decide if I want that 60 green 
> demo Chev.  RBW is currently listing or that grey with cream accents frame 
> set. Bobs post that he has a 60 on order led me to search the quantity 
> availability. Wow, only 4 60cm's left in grey.  What to do, what to do.  
> Decided, now there's only 3 left. 
> 
> Howard
> Waiting in Livonia Mi. 
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Cheviot (or Sam)

[Howard Hatten]

Been following this post. I've been trying to decide if I want that 60 green 
demo Chev.  RBW is currently listing or that grey with cream accents frame set. 
Bobs post that he has a 60 on order led me to search the quantity availability. 
Wow, only 4 60cm's left in grey.  What to do, what to do.  Decided, now there's 
only 3 left. 

Howard
Waiting in Livonia Mi. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Cheviot (or Sam)

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I think your current green bags will be fantastically attractive with a 
gray Chev.  Regarding your color choice, when choosing between orange and 
black for my Clementine, though I like orange bikes, I went with black, 
partially because there is a rather prominent Public mixte in town in 
bright orange, and the step-through style for a man seemed to call for 
something more understated. I was not overly concerned with visibility, as 
I almost always wear a hi-vis safety vest when commuting, and run lights in 
the daytime. I would have been equally happy with the Clem (now Chev) gray 
or Cheviut green, but neither was an option in the Clementine. 

It sounds like the Cheviot will be just the ticket for you! It's great you 
got to ride both bicycles a decent amount before making a decision. Being 
in New York, that was not a possibility at the time. I seriously considered 
the Chev, but several factors made the Clementine a clear choice for my 
needs. I already had a mixte style bike, and though I am sure the Cheviot 
would be "better" in some respects than my Rivved out Le Tour--well, I 
already had a mixte. Also I was on the cutting edge of both sizes. My 
philosophy on that is the bike will work just fine, your body will adjust. 
But while I could easily handle the 60cm Chev (my SH is 73-74), I did not 
particularly want a 700c bike with massive rubber and fenders for a city 
bike application. Plus, in that size, there is no way I would be mounting 
with any other motion than the leg swing from the back. (And as it is, I 
can barely maneuver my 52 Clem up the three flights of narrow stairs to my 
apartment!) Though I suspect I may have given up a tad in spriteliness of 
ride quality, I have other bicycles that have plenty of pep, and the 
Clementine over these past months has created an appreciation in me for 
other ride qualities. And, as I had figured it might, it has subtly 
transformed what I might call my riding demeanor. I have no doubt your 
Cheviot will do the same for you!



On Saturday, August 13, 2016 at 6:43:51 PM UTC-4, SeanMac wrote:
>
> My guess is that a Clem Smith Jr. would serve my intended purpose just as 
> well as a Cheviot.  However, after riding both (a much more extended ride 
> on the Clem) I had a much bigger smile after riding the Chev - it simply 
> seemed to have a bit more life to it than the Clem. 
>
> I have an olive colored saddlesack and a green front bag that I would use 
> with this bike - is orange or grey likely to be my best bet with those 
> colors?
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Cheviot (or Sam)

[Toshi Takeuchi]

I am very fortunate to have gotten a discount orange Cheviot frame that I
had built up recently.  It replaced my Surly Pacer (my wife will definitely
not tolerate any more bikes!, but am very fortunate that she tolerated a
replacement bike!).  The bike is setup with an Albastache bar, thin
gripster pedals, and a kickstand.  Having a non-drop bar, non-clipless
pedals and kickstand are all firsts since I was a kid.

I love the bike, and it has my interpretation of trademark Riv handling in
that it is extremely responsive to shifts in weight changes.  Also common
to all Rivs, they bring a smile to my face when I go out for a ride.  This
is in all seriousness.  I didn't ride the Pacer much anymore because it was
too this or too that compared to my Rivs.  Now I am so lucky have another
Riv to bring on that smile.

Just in case you are wondering about the drop bar to Albastache adjustment,
the brakes are lined up in the front of the bars at the curves, and if the
wind is strong, I can lean down and rest my arms along the bars and tuck
down very comfortably.  However, my position is very comfortable with
multiple bar positions and enjoy the added comfort of the upright bar end
position.

I am surprised at how well the thin gripster pedals work.  When I am going
uphill, I can definitely pull back on the pedal and get climbing
contribution there because they grip the sole of the shoe really well.

Having the functionality of a kickstand is great and forgotten after all
these years of "road" riding.  I'm having a friendly discussion with Grant
whether a randonneuring bike should have a kickstand plate or not, but for
my Cheviot, a kickstand is definitely the right thing to have.

Toshi

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Re: [RBW] Re: Cheviot (or Sam)

[Deacon Patrick]

To exclude smiles from logic is illogical. Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Saturday, August 13, 2016 at 7:48:22 PM UTC-6, Bob Lovejoy wrote:
>
>
> One thing I will add... For bikes I have bought, as well as other things, 
> the ones I regretted were the ones I decided on with only logic.  The fact 
> you came back on the Cheviot with a big smile is, well, something to truly 
> consider.  Bikes *should* make you smile!  Some do, some don't, the ones 
> that do are special.
>
> Making the same kinds of decision here in Denver...
>
> Bob
>
>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Cheviot (or Sam)

[Bob Lovejoy]

I will just add my vote, such as it is, for the Cheviot.  In fact, I have 
voted with a deposit as I have had a 60cm grey reserved for awhile now.  I 
initially thought about a black Clem (actually a Clementine) but decided 
that if I was going to get a Rivendell, I wanted something I would more 
likely like/love for years to come,  There will always be new (and great!) 
regular and interesting road bikes, in all shapes and sizes, but I have 
some of those already and something different, relaxing and timeless will 
be welcome.  The Clementine would have been great but I suspect the Cheviot 
is "the one", the one large, load carrying, relaxing, take me away to 
another place, timeless mixte.

I don't know if I am just a Mercedes/BMW guy wannabe (I hope not), but I am 
going with the grey.  The orange, I am sure, is fun and beautiful, the 
(existing) green perfect with its depth and the way it changes, the blue is 
going to be perfect for some... but grey seems right for me, I in my 
advancing years, and though I agree with the visibility issue, there are 
lots of ways to get that job done and I like the bike to blend in once 
stopped, attracting as little attention as possible.

One thing I will add... For bikes I have bought, as well as other things, 
the ones I regretted were the ones I decided on with only logic.  The fact 
you came back on the Cheviot with a big smile is, well, something to truly 
consider.  Bikes *should* make you smile!  Some do, some don't, the ones 
that do are special.

Making the same kinds of decision here in Denver...

Bob


>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Cheviot (or Sam)

[Surlyprof]

Sean,

That green was one of my favorite Riv colors (except maybe the recent matte 
green Roscoe Bubbe).  Was surprised when they didn't do it again.  I always 
thought I'd paint my Hillborne that color if I ever bother to repaint it. 
 I also thought the grey looks pretty great in the blug shots.  Would 
probably look awesome with tan bags.  If it helps, here is what the older, 
more metallic orange looks like with olive bags. 
 https://www.flickr.com/photos/129545862@N03/16372487184/in/dateposted-public/ 
 I love my Hillborne but also thought the Cheviut was pretty amazing when I 
tried one at Riv.  It was such a smooth, graceful ride.  I hope they have 
them back if I ever find it difficult to throw a leg over the saddle in the 
future.

Good luck with your decision.  Sounds like you're deciding between shades 
of great.
John 



On Saturday, August 13, 2016 at 3:43:51 PM UTC-7, SeanMac wrote:
>
> This thread has been so informative.  Thank you all for your comments and 
> stories.  Having lots of data points certainly is helpful in determining 
> what course of action to take - to buy or not to buy a Cheviot.
>
> I've read through the comments a few times and the consensus seems to be 
> that those who have purchased a Cheviot (or a Betty or any other Riv 
> mixtie).  The biggest drawback seems to be the lack of a second (or third) 
> bottle mount.  I certainly see that as a concern if the bike would be used 
> regularly on longer rides.  After all, as Garth and others have noted, it 
> kind of sucks to spend $1,500 + on a frame only to add a cheesy bottle 
> holder if you want to carry two bottles.  However, given my intended usage, 
> as a bike that would mainly be ridden around town (farmers market, grocery 
> store, post office, etc) the number of bottles is not really a concern.  I 
> likely would also use this bike to ride on a few local bike paths (mostly 
> paved) where the lack of multiple bottle mounts would not be a huge concern.
>
> My guess is that a Clem Smith Jr. would serve my intended purpose just as 
> well as a Cheviot.  However, after riding both (a much more extended ride 
> on the Clem) I had a much bigger smile after riding the Chev - it simply 
> seemed to have a bit more life to it than the Clem.  I don't know if this 
> was due to the tubing used on the bikes, the angles, the wheels or some 
> other factor - the simple reality was that I had more fun riding the 
> Cheviot than the Clem.
>
> The more I ponder the Chev the less the "girl bike" thing seems like an 
> issue.  One other silly question that is kind of related to the girl bike 
> thing is the color choice.  I rode a green Cheviot at Rivendell.  I really 
> liked the color.  The new frames have cream headtubes, which the older 
> frames do not.  One more reason to go for a new frame.  Initially I thought 
> that the orange was the best color.  However, the more I think about it the 
> more attracted I am to the grey.  Perhaps this color will make the Chev a 
> bit more manly, as it will look more like a mountain bike.  The description 
> on the website says that the grey is "old Clem grey."  Anyone with a bike 
> in that color care to comment on how they like the color?  Pictures 
> perhaps?  Finally, I have an olive colored saddlesack and a green front bag 
> that I would use with this bike - is orange or grey likely to be my best 
> bet with those colors?
>
> Thanks again for your comments.
>
> Sean
> EA, NY
>
> On Sat, Aug 13, 2016 at 7:22 AM, 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch <
> rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com > wrote:
>
>>
>> 
>>
>> Hi Caroline. Welcome. Would be great to see a pic of your City Betty with 
>> the racy Albatross bars! Regarding the comparison of the Clementine to the 
>> Dutch city bikes, while they share the drooped top tube feature, the Dutch 
>> bikes have a significantly different geometry, practically heading into 
>> recumbent territory. As for the Clementine and loads, I carry 15-40 pounds, 
>> distributed between rear panniers and front basket, with regularity on my 
>> 52cm Clementine. It carries these burdens without complaint, and no flex 
>> issues for me at 170ish, though I may be a few pounds lighter this week due 
>> to water loss! (The Dutch bike pictured above is from Lovely Bicycle 
>> .) 
>> This message is a public service of the Knights of Clementine Society, 
>> dedicated to defending the honor of Clementines everywhere.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Saturday, August 13, 2016 at 1:54:53 AM UTC-4, Caroline Golum wrote:
>>  
>>
>>> As for the Clementine - just from experience working in different shops, 
>>> I find that traditional Dutch step-through style to be a little lacking for 
>>> longer rides and heavier loads, but if that's what you're trying to do it 
>>> seems perfect!
>>>

Re: [RBW] Re: Cheviot (or Sam)

[Joe Bernard]

I think green bags would look better on the orange bike. But if I ever get a 
Cheviot, I'll be looking for the green no-cream-headtube bike and put tan bags 
on it. That would be gorgeous!

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Re: [RBW] Re: Cheviot (or Sam)

[Sean McAtee]

This thread has been so informative.  Thank you all for your comments and
stories.  Having lots of data points certainly is helpful in determining
what course of action to take - to buy or not to buy a Cheviot.

I've read through the comments a few times and the consensus seems to be
that those who have purchased a Cheviot (or a Betty or any other Riv
mixtie).  The biggest drawback seems to be the lack of a second (or third)
bottle mount.  I certainly see that as a concern if the bike would be used
regularly on longer rides.  After all, as Garth and others have noted, it
kind of sucks to spend $1,500 + on a frame only to add a cheesy bottle
holder if you want to carry two bottles.  However, given my intended usage,
as a bike that would mainly be ridden around town (farmers market, grocery
store, post office, etc) the number of bottles is not really a concern.  I
likely would also use this bike to ride on a few local bike paths (mostly
paved) where the lack of multiple bottle mounts would not be a huge concern.

My guess is that a Clem Smith Jr. would serve my intended purpose just as
well as a Cheviot.  However, after riding both (a much more extended ride
on the Clem) I had a much bigger smile after riding the Chev - it simply
seemed to have a bit more life to it than the Clem.  I don't know if this
was due to the tubing used on the bikes, the angles, the wheels or some
other factor - the simple reality was that I had more fun riding the
Cheviot than the Clem.

The more I ponder the Chev the less the "girl bike" thing seems like an
issue.  One other silly question that is kind of related to the girl bike
thing is the color choice.  I rode a green Cheviot at Rivendell.  I really
liked the color.  The new frames have cream headtubes, which the older
frames do not.  One more reason to go for a new frame.  Initially I thought
that the orange was the best color.  However, the more I think about it the
more attracted I am to the grey.  Perhaps this color will make the Chev a
bit more manly, as it will look more like a mountain bike.  The description
on the website says that the grey is "old Clem grey."  Anyone with a bike
in that color care to comment on how they like the color?  Pictures
perhaps?  Finally, I have an olive colored saddlesack and a green front bag
that I would use with this bike - is orange or grey likely to be my best
bet with those colors?

Thanks again for your comments.

Sean
EA, NY

On Sat, Aug 13, 2016 at 7:22 AM, 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch <
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:

>
> 
>
> Hi Caroline. Welcome. Would be great to see a pic of your City Betty with
> the racy Albatross bars! Regarding the comparison of the Clementine to the
> Dutch city bikes, while they share the drooped top tube feature, the Dutch
> bikes have a significantly different geometry, practically heading into
> recumbent territory. As for the Clementine and loads, I carry 15-40 pounds,
> distributed between rear panniers and front basket, with regularity on my
> 52cm Clementine. It carries these burdens without complaint, and no flex
> issues for me at 170ish, though I may be a few pounds lighter this week due
> to water loss! (The Dutch bike pictured above is from Lovely Bicycle
> .)
> This message is a public service of the Knights of Clementine Society,
> dedicated to defending the honor of Clementines everywhere.
>
>
>
> On Saturday, August 13, 2016 at 1:54:53 AM UTC-4, Caroline Golum wrote:
>
>
>> As for the Clementine - just from experience working in different shops,
>> I find that traditional Dutch step-through style to be a little lacking for
>> longer rides and heavier loads, but if that's what you're trying to do it
>> seems perfect!
>>
>>
>
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Cheviot (or Sam)

[Jon Dukeman]

Thanks Irving.
NICE!

"FRIENDS DON'T LET FRIENDS RIDE JUNK "

On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 2:10 PM, Irving  wrote:

> It's a Nitto Longboy Longstay that is apparently discontinued now.
>
> On Friday, August 12, 2016 at 12:36:35 PM UTC-7, Jon in central Colorado
> wrote:
>>
>> Irving,
>> Nice looking Cheviot.
>> I ordered a blue one. Will also have Brooks spring saddle and Albatross.
>> What rack do you have on the back?
>> Jon
>> ( serialcycler) on Instagram
>>
>> On Friday, August 12, 2016 at 12:08:39 PM UTC-6, Irving wrote:
>>
>>> Can I add to the list of glowing reviews about the Cheviot?
>>>
>>> I've had my Cheviot since last December and have taken it on a 120k
>>> rando ride, Bay Area headlands dirt excursions, S240's and daily commuting
>>> trips.
>>>
>>> I don't mind dealing with the "guy on a girl's bike" comments. Usually
>>> when you have a bike with albatross bars, a Brooks spring saddle,
>>> fenders/racks, people are already going to have snarky comments about your
>>> ride. I will say that there are plenty of orange Public Mixte's
>>> 
>>>  in
>>> San Francisco, which my Cheviot has gotten mistaken for on multiple
>>> occasions -_-
>>>
>>> Anyways, the Cheviot isn't the best for long spirited rides but it's the
>>> bike I seem to grab before heading out the door most of these days.
>>>
>>> Here's a picture of me riding last weekend
>>>  on a S240 campout.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Friday, August 12, 2016 at 8:16:11 AM UTC-7, Ryan Fleming wrote:

 I have to say, this has been an interesting thread as I venture into
 mixte and 650B territory with the eagerly awaited  new Riv custom. Thanks
 for all the as usual, thoughtful replies

 On Friday, August 12, 2016 at 6:22:40 AM UTC-5, Michael Hechmer wrote:
>
> My wife has a Betty (nearly identical to a Cevy) and my daughter a
> Cheviot and the both love them.  My daughter opted for drop bars on hers
> and found they work quite well, so that is an option.  I suspect that the
> changes from Betty to Chevy, which mostly consisted of color & name were
> made to give the bike more appeal to men.  So my suggestion to be don't 
> let
> others opinion of your testosterone level guide your choice.  You will
> however need new wheels since your Trek is 700C & the Chevy 650B, which in
> my mind is a big, big, plus.
>
> Michael
>
> On Tuesday, August 9, 2016 at 8:45:34 AM UTC-4, SeanMac wrote:
>>
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> I had the opportunity to spend a few hours at Riv HQ a few Saturday's
>> ago.  I had a wonderful time - I rode four bikes (Clem, Cheviot, Sam and
>> Hubbuhubbah), and walked away with a medium saddlesack bag.  Still smile
>> when I think about the fun I had.  Most of my riding (about an hour) was
>> done on the Clem.  I enjoyed the ride, but it did not really speak to me.
>> Perhaps it was just too different from the bikes that I typically ride.
>> Strangely enough, the bike that emerged as my favorite was the Cheviot.  
>> I
>> can't seem to get it out of my head.  In fact, ever since I returned 
>> home,
>> I have been trying to figure out if I loved the Chev enough to purchase 
>> one
>> before they go away.  Here is my situation.
>>
>> About ten years ago I had a custom-built Bob Brown Cycle made for
>> me.  I nearly bought a Rambouillet, but chose Bob Brown instead.  It was 
>> my
>> poor-man's red convertible that I got for my 40th birthday.  That bike
>> complimented my circa 1990 Trek 520 quite well.  My Bob Brown was
>> quick-ish, sporty and fun to ride.  However, as the years went by, I 
>> found
>> it to be increasingly uncomfortable for longer ride.  Two years ago I
>> bought a Black Mountain Road bike.  This bike has a bit more relaxed
>> geometry.  I really love this bike - it is much more comfortable than Bob
>> Brown, and has become the bike that I grab most often.  In fact, Bob 
>> Brown
>> typically sees the road only once or twice a year - it is typically the
>> bike that I use on my indoor trainer.  My Trek 520 has been turned into a
>> grocery-getter.  However, it does not bring me a great deal of joy to 
>> ride,
>> but it gets the job done.
>>
>> In my mind, I see the Cheviot as a replacement for my Trek 520.
>> Nearly all of the components that I have on the Trek would easily 
>> transfer
>> to the Chev - meaning that my initial output of cash would be only for 
>> the
>> frame.
>>
>> I've read through everything that I can find on the list about the
>> Cheviot.  I would love to hear impressions from those who have had the 
>> bike
>> long term.  Likes?  Dislikes?  Dealing with the "guy on a 

Re: [RBW] Re: Cheviot (or Sam)

[Eric Daume]

They Cheviot has significantly longer stays than the Betty. It's more than
just a color and name change (that was the Yves Gomez model)

On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 7:22 AM, Michael Hechmer  wrote:

> My wife has a Betty (nearly identical to a Cevy) and my daughter a Cheviot
> and the both love them.  My daughter opted for drop bars on hers and found
> they work quite well, so that is an option.  I suspect that the changes
> from Betty to Chevy, which mostly consisted of color & name were made to
> give the bike more appeal to men.  So my suggestion to be don't let others
> opinion of your testosterone level guide your choice.  You will however
> need new wheels since your Trek is 700C & the Chevy 650B, which in my mind
> is a big, big, plus.
>
> Michael
>
> On Tuesday, August 9, 2016 at 8:45:34 AM UTC-4, SeanMac wrote:
>>
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> I had the opportunity to spend a few hours at Riv HQ a few Saturday's
>> ago.  I had a wonderful time - I rode four bikes (Clem, Cheviot, Sam and
>> Hubbuhubbah), and walked away with a medium saddlesack bag.  Still smile
>> when I think about the fun I had.  Most of my riding (about an hour) was
>> done on the Clem.  I enjoyed the ride, but it did not really speak to me.
>> Perhaps it was just too different from the bikes that I typically ride.
>> Strangely enough, the bike that emerged as my favorite was the Cheviot.  I
>> can't seem to get it out of my head.  In fact, ever since I returned home,
>> I have been trying to figure out if I loved the Chev enough to purchase one
>> before they go away.  Here is my situation.
>>
>> About ten years ago I had a custom-built Bob Brown Cycle made for me.  I
>> nearly bought a Rambouillet, but chose Bob Brown instead.  It was my
>> poor-man's red convertible that I got for my 40th birthday.  That bike
>> complimented my circa 1990 Trek 520 quite well.  My Bob Brown was
>> quick-ish, sporty and fun to ride.  However, as the years went by, I found
>> it to be increasingly uncomfortable for longer ride.  Two years ago I
>> bought a Black Mountain Road bike.  This bike has a bit more relaxed
>> geometry.  I really love this bike - it is much more comfortable than Bob
>> Brown, and has become the bike that I grab most often.  In fact, Bob Brown
>> typically sees the road only once or twice a year - it is typically the
>> bike that I use on my indoor trainer.  My Trek 520 has been turned into a
>> grocery-getter.  However, it does not bring me a great deal of joy to ride,
>> but it gets the job done.
>>
>> In my mind, I see the Cheviot as a replacement for my Trek 520.  Nearly
>> all of the components that I have on the Trek would easily transfer to the
>> Chev - meaning that my initial output of cash would be only for the frame.
>>
>> I've read through everything that I can find on the list about the
>> Cheviot.  I would love to hear impressions from those who have had the bike
>> long term.  Likes?  Dislikes?  Dealing with the "guy on a girl's bike"
>> thing is perhaps an issue.  However, as I approach 50 I see the benefit of
>> the lower top tube.  Besides, when I rode the Cheviot in Walnut Creek, I
>> did not even think about the fact that I was riding a mixte, as I was
>> simply enjoying the ride.
>>
>> I live in a small town in western New York - with short rides (mile or
>> two) to the co-op grocery store, library, post office, etc.  This is the
>> type of riding, along with occasional paved and/or gravel path riding) that
>> I see myself doing with a Cheviot.  What do you think -- good choice in
>> bikes?
>>
>> What about a Sam?  I rode a Sam the other day as well, but it was set up
>> with Noodle bars, and rode much more like a typical road bike.  If I set it
>> up with Albatross bars, bags, etc how would it likely compare with the
>> Cheviot?  Would it ride the same and put the same smile on my face without
>> causing me and/or those seeing me question my manliness?
>>
>> Any insight on these issues would be appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Sean
>> East Aurora, NY
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Cheviot (or Sam)

[Steve Palincsar]

On 08/09/2016 03:04 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote:
The problems with selling a used custom steel bike are two-fold. 
 First is that you have to come to grips with the fact that a custom 
frame is valuable because it is custom.  The freedom to change things 
until they are perfect for you is valuable.  That value is completely 
spent once the bike is made.  It's no longer custom for the next 
person who buys it, because the next owner can't change anything. 
 That immediately removes whatever premium you paid for it being 
custom right off the top of your re-sale value.  Taking a $3500 custom 
Rivendell as an example, the resale value of a custom Rivendell is not 
a lot higher than the resale value of a stock MUSA Rivendell, like an 
Atlantis or a Roadeo.


It's actually worse than that (based on long-standing observation of 
discussions of custom bikes for sale on a couple of bicycle forums).  A 
custom frame has unknown geometry, whereas you can always look up the 
specs on an old stock frame.  Some customers have gotten amazingly weird 
customs - things you'd hope no self respecting builder would ever 
countenance, things that can (as happened in the case of Serotta) go a 
long way towards destroying a firm's reputation.  As a result, people 
are very wary of customs made for someone else, and the price reflects 
that concern as well.


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