Re: [RBW] Roadini at RBW

2017-06-19 Thread Grant Petersen 
The new seat lug doesn't care what the seat tube angle or any of that
it--it rotates to accommodate. That is a convenience, but in the rotation
dept it's no diff than a standard side-braze. The original Trek lugs from
'78 or so were totally fixed angles, as were the dropouts, and each size
had its own set, and they didn't require mitering (the internals accepted
straight-cut tubes) The initial investment was high, but it allowed Trek
builders to braze up to 40 frames (per builder) per day.
The ENTIRE purpose of the ball-socket seat lug is to eliminate shear
forces, which is does 100 percent. The cost to braze each joint is the same
or a bit higher. The tooling investment can't possibly pay for itself in
any kind of economical cost savings. The opposite---we already have several
seat lugs (like, eight) and seat stay plugs (three) which we've now made
obsolete, even though the molds are good for another 50 years worth of
frames at our rate.

Not once that I can think of have we (I) ever made a decision based on its
ability to save us money. We've not made stuff that cost too much (fully
lugged tandem). We often can't afford something. But if we were
concerned about saving a dollar or even fifty dollars, even a hundred
dollars on a frame, we wouldn't use ANY lugs or fork crowns or cast
dropouts.

Here's a cost savings thing--not to go back on what I just said--but it's
the way I'd prefer it, anyway (with my fondness for asymmetry). ON the
Roadini/new seat stay caps, we wanted both 14mm and 16mm. But I don't want
to pay for two molds, and each mold could fit only two caps. So, genius of
the obvious, I said rather than do a left and right side 14 in one and a
left and right 16 in another, just do a left 14 and a right 16 in the same
mold, and when they make 100 bikesworth of 14s, (200 14mm caps) they also
make 100 bikesworth of 16s--whether we need them or not. This saves the
$2,500 (cheaper than a lug or crown mold!) or so tool cost for separate L
and R for both 14 & 16, but we pay for the others even when we don't need
them yet.

The actual real and only significant cost savings is the TIG-ing instead of
LUG-ing on the other joints.
The dropouts cost less per pair, but as you'll see when you see them, we
made up for that with higher labor costs in the way they made the joint.
Both front and rear. So again, it all comes down to TIG saves $$$...and
then not having to cream the head tube area, too.



On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 5:41 AM, Michael Cambron 
wrote:

> The socketed seat tube lug can be standard across various frame sizes so
> long as the seat tube angle remains the same. Seat stay attachment is
> simplified.  Seat post binder bolt is integrated so this eliminates a
> joint.   Trek did something similar back in the late '80's.  The reason for
> tig welding the head tube comes down to cost.  It's cheaper than lugs both
> in terms of time and materials (lugs + filler metal).
>
> On Saturday, June 17, 2017 at 8:01:00 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>> Pretty nice for a budget bike!
>>
>> Why the tigg'ing at the head tube instead of elsewhere? I suppose it has
>> to do with the economics of building, but can someone explain how this
>> choice affects costs?
>>
>> Also: any ideas why the socketed seat tube cluster instead of some other
>> design? Is this one for style? (Nothing wrong with that, btw.)
>>
>> And I wouldn't mind that Calfee! (But would prefer my 2 Riv custom
>> fixies.)
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 17, 2017 at 2:39 PM, Jim M.  wrote:
>>
>>> Stopped by RBW for a few small things today and got to try the
>>> proto-Roadini. Here's an album with some pics: https://goo.gl/photos/uN
>>> uwi6pGPSEJf71w5
>>>
>>> It is a very comfortable bike to ride, as are all Rivs. 46cm chainstay
>>> on this 57cm, so it's longer than a Roadeo and shorter than Clem, etc.
>>> Rides very smooth, corners confidently, and it's easy to envision the miles
>>> easily rolling away under the wheels. When I got on, I checked the barends
>>> for shifters. Not finding any, I reached for the downtube, but what do you
>>> know, it has brifters. This proto is set up with a rapid rise XT derailer,
>>> which I like.
>>>
>>> Interesting new fastback seat lug. Cool headbadge. Grant's shin in one
>>> of the shots. And at the end is the top secret Riv proto carbon fiber
>>> fixie, badged as a Calfee to keep it incognito.
>>>
>>> jim m
>>> walnut creek, ca
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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>>> an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
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>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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>> LinkedIn, and

Re: [RBW] Roadini at RBW

2017-06-19 Thread Michael Cambron 
The socketed seat tube lug can be standard across various frame sizes so 
long as the seat tube angle remains the same. Seat stay attachment is 
simplified.  Seat post binder bolt is integrated so this eliminates a 
joint.   Trek did something similar back in the late '80's.  The reason for 
tig welding the head tube comes down to cost.  It's cheaper than lugs both 
in terms of time and materials (lugs + filler metal).

On Saturday, June 17, 2017 at 8:01:00 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> Pretty nice for a budget bike! 
>
> Why the tigg'ing at the head tube instead of elsewhere? I suppose it has 
> to do with the economics of building, but can someone explain how this 
> choice affects costs?
>
> Also: any ideas why the socketed seat tube cluster instead of some other 
> design? Is this one for style? (Nothing wrong with that, btw.)
>
> And I wouldn't mind that Calfee! (But would prefer my 2 Riv custom fixies.)
>
> On Sat, Jun 17, 2017 at 2:39 PM, Jim M.  
> wrote:
>
>> Stopped by RBW for a few small things today and got to try the 
>> proto-Roadini. Here's an album with some pics: 
>> https://goo.gl/photos/uNuwi6pGPSEJf71w5
>>
>> It is a very comfortable bike to ride, as are all Rivs. 46cm chainstay on 
>> this 57cm, so it's longer than a Roadeo and shorter than Clem, etc. Rides 
>> very smooth, corners confidently, and it's easy to envision the miles 
>> easily rolling away under the wheels. When I got on, I checked the barends 
>> for shifters. Not finding any, I reached for the downtube, but what do you 
>> know, it has brifters. This proto is set up with a rapid rise XT derailer, 
>> which I like.
>>
>> Interesting new fastback seat lug. Cool headbadge. Grant's shin in one of 
>> the shots. And at the end is the top secret Riv proto carbon fiber fixie, 
>> badged as a Calfee to keep it incognito.
>>
>> jim m
>> walnut creek, ca
>>
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com .
>> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com 
>> .
>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
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> more! 10% kickback for any referral resulting in fully paid, list-price 
> contract. And still more!  I am offering services in trade for a road bike, 
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> **
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>
>
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Re: [RBW] Roadini at RBW

2017-06-17 Thread Christopher Murray 
I think it looks great! I don't think it'll be competition for the Rodeo as 
some have speculated. 

Cheers,
Chris

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Re: [RBW] Roadini at RBW

2017-06-17 Thread Kai Vierstra 
Isn't everything else TIG'd?
-Kai
BK NY 

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Re: [RBW] Roadini at RBW

2017-06-17 Thread Philip Kim 
Well you need two lugs for the head tube and you also have to get various sizes 
depending on headtube angles changing depending on sizes

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Re: [RBW] Roadini at RBW

2017-06-17 Thread Kai Vierstra 
That seat lug is a smart step for simplifying construction across a lot of 
sizes. With the Clems the smaller frames had very curved seatstays whereas the 
largest are straight. It must've been a pain to bend all those tubes to spec, 
we'll probably not that big of a pain, but pain enough. With these socketed 
lugs, cut everything straight and braze to secure, easy peasy...
-Kai
BK NY 

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Re: [RBW] Roadini at RBW

2017-06-17 Thread Patrick Moore 
Pretty nice for a budget bike!

Why the tigg'ing at the head tube instead of elsewhere? I suppose it has to
do with the economics of building, but can someone explain how this choice
affects costs?

Also: any ideas why the socketed seat tube cluster instead of some other
design? Is this one for style? (Nothing wrong with that, btw.)

And I wouldn't mind that Calfee! (But would prefer my 2 Riv custom fixies.)

On Sat, Jun 17, 2017 at 2:39 PM, Jim M.  wrote:

> Stopped by RBW for a few small things today and got to try the
> proto-Roadini. Here's an album with some pics: https://goo.gl/photos/
> uNuwi6pGPSEJf71w5
>
> It is a very comfortable bike to ride, as are all Rivs. 46cm chainstay on
> this 57cm, so it's longer than a Roadeo and shorter than Clem, etc. Rides
> very smooth, corners confidently, and it's easy to envision the miles
> easily rolling away under the wheels. When I got on, I checked the barends
> for shifters. Not finding any, I reached for the downtube, but what do you
> know, it has brifters. This proto is set up with a rapid rise XT derailer,
> which I like.
>
> Interesting new fastback seat lug. Cool headbadge. Grant's shin in one of
> the shots. And at the end is the top secret Riv proto carbon fiber fixie,
> badged as a Calfee to keep it incognito.
>
> jim m
> walnut creek, ca
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>



-- 
*30% Supply and Demand discount, listmembers only, on all resume, LinkedIn,
and writing services, until Demand equals Supply! And there's more! 10%
kickback for any referral resulting in fully paid, list-price contract. And
still more!  I am offering services in trade for a road bike, or frame and
parts, that are period compatible with my AM hub, circa 1937 to 1961. See
my website for what I do and what I charge; email for details.*

Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
Other professional writing services.
http://www.resumespecialties.com/
www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
**
**

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