Re: [RDA-L] Some comments on the Final Report of the FRBR Working

[John Espley]

I guess I did not read the Final Report that carefully, since I'm not 
sure what the difference is between aggregating expressions/works and 
aggregate expressions/works.  What we do in Virtua is allow you to have 
a Manifestation, which contains separate Works, linked to multiple 
Expressions/Works, including an Expression/Work for the Manifestation 
(an aggregate).  I think Figure 3 in the Final Report illustrates the 
process very well.


You can see a powerpoint presentation on our RDA/FRBR implementation at
http://www.vtls.com/products/virtua
and click on the hyperlink at the bottom of the page:
Insights and Processes from VTLS's 8 Years of Experience with FRBR and 
RDA 



It is a couple of years old now, but it still illustrates the system okay,

John Espley
VTLS Inc

On 1/15/2012 10:59 AM, Heidrun Wiesenmüller wrote:

John Espley wrote:

the system is also in line with the Final Report of the FRBR Working 
Group on Aggregates.  That is, Virtua can have an aggregating 
Manifestation which is linked to its aggregating Expression to the 
Expressions aggregating Work as well as to the individual 
Work/Expressions contained in the Manifestation (see figure 3 in the 
Final Report).


Sorry for being a bit suspicious here: Have you really implemented 
_aggregating_ expressions and works, or rather _aggregate_ expressions 
and works? Perhaps you can give us an idea of what sort of data 
elements are stored in the records for these entities, and how they 
are presented to the users.


Heidrun

--
-
Prof. Heidrun Wiesenmueller M.A.
Stuttgart Media University
Faculty of Information and Communication
Wolframstrasse 32, 70191 Stuttgart, Germany
www.hdm-stuttgart.de/bi

Re: [RDA-L] Some comments on the Final Report of the FRBR Working

[John Espley]

Yes, see it at booth 729.  Also there are two special demo's on Sunday 
at Hyatt Regency, Room Bryan-Beeman A on our RDA/FRBR Implementation 
Scenario One.  I will be presenting the first one at 8:00 AM, and Robert 
Pillow will be doing the one at 1:30 PM.


John

On 1/15/2012 10:49 AM, Karen Coyle wrote:
John, I'm dying to see how this displays. I assume this will be 
available for viewing at ALA?


But of course I now have another question :-) for the list. FRBR 
appears to have been designed on presumed database management 
principles, in particular relational databases. A relational database 
is a closed system in the sense that it needs to be coherent within 
that one database, but no further. Does this same model work "in the 
cloud" -- and by "cloud" I don't mean in a huge system like WorldCat, 
which is really just one giant database, I mean integrated with the 
Web, the real cloudy cloud.


kc

Quoting John Espley :

Not sure what to say about "is there a way that is right" (I have my 
private opinion about that, which I'm sure most of  you can guess 
what it is :-), but in regards to whether we can implement a system, 
VTLS has implemented a RDA/FRBR Implementation Scenario One in our 
Virtua ILS.  Our system not only follows what is described in the 
FRBR Final Report (that is, separate, linked, Work to Expressions to 
Manifestations), but the system is also in line with the Final Report 
of the FRBR Working Group on Aggregates.  That is, Virtua can have an 
aggregating Manifestation which is linked to its aggregating 
Expression to the Expressions aggregating Work as well as to the 
individual Work/Expressions contained in the Manifestation (see 
figure 3 in the Final Report).  In other works the Manifestation can 
be  linked to multiple Expressions/Works.


John Espley
VTLS Inc.

On 1/15/2012 10:13 AM, Karen Coyle wrote:

Quoting Heidrun Wiesenmüller :


When I started this discussion, I already had a strong feeling that 
the theory presented in the final report was somehow weird. Looking 
back now, I find that I had only noticed the tip of the iceberg of 
the "wrongness" then. Now after all the points we've covered during 
the discussion, I really think the final report (in the main body 
of the text) gets it utterly wrong and is, I'm afraid, rather 
pointless.


Here's the million euro question: is there a way that is right? And, 
bonus question: is that right way one we really think we can 
implement in systems?


kc




Heidrun


--
-
Prof. Heidrun Wiesenmueller M.A.
Stuttgart Media University
Faculty of Information and Communication
Wolframstrasse 32, 70191 Stuttgart, Germany
www.hdm-stuttgart.de/bi

Re: [RDA-L] Some comments on the Final Report of the FRBR Working

[Simon Spero]

On Sat, Jan 14, 2012 at 12:57 PM, J. McRee Elrod  wrote:

> >Heidrun said:
>
>
> >Sure, but these are plain simple _aggregate_ works, and not _aggregating_
> works in the sense of the Working Group. Remember their claim: "The process
> of aggregating the expressions itself is an intellectual or artistic effort
> ...
>
> It seems to me "work" is being used in two ways here, the effort
> of creating the aggregate, and the resulting aggregate.
>

I think what is meant is not work in the sense of "sweat-of-the-brow"
labor, but instead refers to the conceptualisations that are considered to
form a separately copyrightable work (for example, selection and
arrangement).

Works are conceptual/intentional  in nature, made up of sets of
propositions.  Suppose that we have an anthology that contains two novels -
say "Persuasion"  and "Jurassic Park".  The work "Persuasion" is made up of
one set of propositions - let's call them P1; "Jurassic Park" contains a
second set - P2. The anthology work contains the set of propositions P3.
 P3  must , of course, contain P1 U P2 (P4).
However, there are propositions in P3 that are not in P4 - for example, the
idea of creating an anthology consisting of "Persuasion" and "Jurassic
Park"; the idea that when expressed, "Persuasion" should appear earlier
than "Jurassic Park", etc.

Simon

Re: [RDA-L] Some comments on the Final Report of the FRBR Working

[Heidrun Wiesenmüller]

John Espley wrote:

the system is also in line with the Final Report of the FRBR Working 
Group on Aggregates.  That is, Virtua can have an aggregating 
Manifestation which is linked to its aggregating Expression to the 
Expressions aggregating Work as well as to the individual 
Work/Expressions contained in the Manifestation (see figure 3 in the 
Final Report).


Sorry for being a bit suspicious here: Have you really implemented 
_aggregating_ expressions and works, or rather _aggregate_ expressions 
and works? Perhaps you can give us an idea of what sort of data elements 
are stored in the records for these entities, and how they are presented 
to the users.


Heidrun

--
-
Prof. Heidrun Wiesenmueller M.A.
Stuttgart Media University
Faculty of Information and Communication
Wolframstrasse 32, 70191 Stuttgart, Germany
www.hdm-stuttgart.de/bi

Re: [RDA-L] Some comments on the Final Report of the FRBR Working

[Karen Coyle]

John, I'm dying to see how this displays. I assume this will be  
available for viewing at ALA?


But of course I now have another question :-) for the list. FRBR  
appears to have been designed on presumed database management  
principles, in particular relational databases. A relational database  
is a closed system in the sense that it needs to be coherent within  
that one database, but no further. Does this same model work "in the  
cloud" -- and by "cloud" I don't mean in a huge system like WorldCat,  
which is really just one giant database, I mean integrated with the  
Web, the real cloudy cloud.


kc

Quoting John Espley :

Not sure what to say about "is there a way that is right" (I have my  
private opinion about that, which I'm sure most of  you can guess  
what it is :-), but in regards to whether we can implement a system,  
VTLS has implemented a RDA/FRBR Implementation Scenario One in our  
Virtua ILS.  Our system not only follows what is described in the  
FRBR Final Report (that is, separate, linked, Work to Expressions to  
Manifestations), but the system is also in line with the Final  
Report of the FRBR Working Group on Aggregates.  That is, Virtua can  
have an aggregating Manifestation which is linked to its aggregating  
Expression to the Expressions aggregating Work as well as to the  
individual Work/Expressions contained in the Manifestation (see  
figure 3 in the Final Report).  In other works the Manifestation can  
be  linked to multiple Expressions/Works.


John Espley
VTLS Inc.

On 1/15/2012 10:13 AM, Karen Coyle wrote:

Quoting Heidrun Wiesenmüller :


When I started this discussion, I already had a strong feeling  
that the theory presented in the final report was somehow weird.  
Looking back now, I find that I had only noticed the tip of the  
iceberg of the "wrongness" then. Now after all the points we've  
covered during the discussion, I really think the final report (in  
the main body of the text) gets it utterly wrong and is, I'm  
afraid, rather pointless.


Here's the million euro question: is there a way that is right?  
And, bonus question: is that right way one we really think we can  
implement in systems?


kc




Heidrun


--
-
Prof. Heidrun Wiesenmueller M.A.
Stuttgart Media University
Faculty of Information and Communication
Wolframstrasse 32, 70191 Stuttgart, Germany
www.hdm-stuttgart.de/bi











--
Karen Coyle
kco...@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net
ph: 1-510-540-7596
m: 1-510-435-8234
skype: kcoylenet

Re: [RDA-L] Some comments on the Final Report of the FRBR Working

[John Espley]

Not sure what to say about "is there a way that is right" (I have my 
private opinion about that, which I'm sure most of  you can guess what 
it is :-), but in regards to whether we can implement a system, VTLS has 
implemented a RDA/FRBR Implementation Scenario One in our Virtua ILS.  
Our system not only follows what is described in the FRBR Final Report 
(that is, separate, linked, Work to Expressions to Manifestations), but 
the system is also in line with the Final Report of the FRBR Working 
Group on Aggregates.  That is, Virtua can have an aggregating 
Manifestation which is linked to its aggregating Expression to the 
Expressions aggregating Work as well as to the individual 
Work/Expressions contained in the Manifestation (see figure 3 in the 
Final Report).  In other works the Manifestation can be  linked to 
multiple Expressions/Works.


John Espley
VTLS Inc.

On 1/15/2012 10:13 AM, Karen Coyle wrote:

Quoting Heidrun Wiesenmüller :


When I started this discussion, I already had a strong feeling that 
the theory presented in the final report was somehow weird. Looking 
back now, I find that I had only noticed the tip of the iceberg of 
the "wrongness" then. Now after all the points we've covered during 
the discussion, I really think the final report (in the main body of 
the text) gets it utterly wrong and is, I'm afraid, rather pointless.


Here's the million euro question: is there a way that is right? And, 
bonus question: is that right way one we really think we can implement 
in systems?


kc




Heidrun


--
-
Prof. Heidrun Wiesenmueller M.A.
Stuttgart Media University
Faculty of Information and Communication
Wolframstrasse 32, 70191 Stuttgart, Germany
www.hdm-stuttgart.de/bi

Re: [RDA-L] Some comments on the Final Report of the FRBR Working

[Karen Coyle]

Quoting Heidrun Wiesenmüller :


When I started this discussion, I already had a strong feeling that  
the theory presented in the final report was somehow weird. Looking  
back now, I find that I had only noticed the tip of the iceberg of  
the "wrongness" then. Now after all the points we've covered during  
the discussion, I really think the final report (in the main body of  
the text) gets it utterly wrong and is, I'm afraid, rather pointless.


Here's the million euro question: is there a way that is right? And,  
bonus question: is that right way one we really think we can implement  
in systems?


kc




Heidrun


--
-
Prof. Heidrun Wiesenmueller M.A.
Stuttgart Media University
Faculty of Information and Communication
Wolframstrasse 32, 70191 Stuttgart, Germany
www.hdm-stuttgart.de/bi





--
Karen Coyle
kco...@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net
ph: 1-510-540-7596
m: 1-510-435-8234
skype: kcoylenet