Re: [RDA-L] Alternate forms of name as access points
-Original Message- From: Brenndorfer, Thomas tbrenndor...@library.guelph.on.ca Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 10:12:03 -0400 2. Establish some identifier for the entity (a single authorized access point, for example). If there are other possible identifiers refer users to the authorized identifier. And you think that's reasonable ? These days, in our linked century ? Why a single authorized access point ? And why to refer the poor user to something else if (s)he actually did hit an identifier ? If the user search for: Pieter Breugel the Elder or Brueghel the Droll or Peasant Breughel and the system knows who are we talking about, why to send (s)he to Bruegel, Pieter, approximately 1525-1569 i.e. giving her/him the authorized access point instead of giving her/him what (s)he is looking for ? Dan -- Dan Matei director, Direcția Patrimoniu Cultural Mobil, Imaterial și Digital [Movable, Intangible and Digital Heritage Department] (aka CIMEC) Institutul Național al Patrimoniului [National Heritage Institute], București [Bucharest, Romania] tel. 0725 253 222, (+4)021 317 90 72; fax (+4)021 317 90 64, www.cimec.ro
Re: [RDA-L] ] The A in RDA
of elements have nothing to do with fire, water, earth and air, while thinking so only retards everything. Automobiles are fundamentally different from horses and buggies. In the same way, I maintain that what is happening now in search is fundamentally different from the 19th-century FRBR user tasks. It is obvious, once you see it. Show us how you can do the FRBR user tasks in Google: to find/identify/select/obtain--*works* *expressions* *manifestations* *items* by their AUTHORS, TITLES and SUBJECTS. Also, please demonstrate how on the web, you can select something in Google without already obtaining it. I cannot do it. In Google with full-text, I select whether I want materials only AFTER I obtain it. I cannot do anything else. If I am wrong, please show me how. This is yet another reason why I maintain the FRBR user tasks are based on *physical objects* not virtual ones. And then, demonstrate why most people really and truly want to obtain items only after selecting them, and how this fits in with identify and the new ideas of find (as the fellow at Google demonstrates). When you say that people no longer want to FIND, IDENTIFY, SELECT, or OBTAIN anything please note that I didn't mention anything. I explicitly pointed out that *I* actually want to do those tasks occasionally, but I confess that I am an inveterate bookman, while the vast majority of people are not. Perhaps you don't know what world I am living in, but I fear that you are stuck in the 1880s. The refusal to accept that 99% of people do not fit into these little pre-conceived FRBR user tasks is why I think that perhaps librarianship may be destined for extinction. We must free our minds from these pre-conceptions! It makes me very sad, but it may be. -- *James Weinheimer* weinheimer.ji...@gmail.com *First Thus* http://catalogingmatters.blogspot.com/ *First Thus Facebook Page* https://www.facebook.com/FirstThus *Cooperative Cataloging Rules* http://sites.google.com/site/opencatalogingrules/ *Cataloging Matters Podcasts* http://blog.jweinheimer.net/p/cataloging-matters-podcasts.html -- --- Dan Matei Institutul Național al Patrimoniului (National Heritage Institute) - București Fundaţia Gellu Naum TermRom - Asociaţia Română de Terminologie
Re: [RDA-L] The A in RDA
-Original Message- From: James L Weinheimer weinheimer.ji...@gmail.com Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 13:51:25 +0200 I hesitate to give up on catalogs so easily. Me too ! I still hope to see a catalog able to answer my favourite query: fiction written by German speaking female authors (born in 19th century) I do not expect Google to do that. Or should I ? Dan -- Dan Matei director, Direcția Patrimoniu Cultural Mobil, Imaterial și Digital [Movable, Intangible and Digital Heritage Department] (aka CIMEC) Institutul Național al Patrimoniului [National Heritage Institute], București [Bucharest, Romania] tel. 0725 253 222, (+4)021 317 90 72; fax (+4)021 317 90 64, www.cimec.ro
Re: [RDA-L] Transcription and spacing
-Original Message- From: Bernhard Eversberg e...@biblio.tu-bs.de Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 08:55:42 +0200 b) If you have a title string index for browsing or left-anchored searching (agreed, no one wants that any more), then there will Hm... How very useful are those indexes for autocomplete, i.e. for the engine to predict a phrase (mainly these days when we have to type with 1-2 fingers :-) Dan -- Dan Matei director, Direcția Patrimoniu Cultural Mobil, Imaterial și Digital [Movable, Intangible and Digital Heritage Department] (aka CIMEC) Institutul Național al Patrimoniului [National Heritage Institute], București [Bucharest, Romania] tel. 0725 253 222, (+4)021 317 90 72; fax (+4)021 317 90 64, www.cimec.ro
Re: [RDA-L] Differentiating Names of Persons in RDA name authority records: Questions posted on RDA Cataloging, Google+ Community
-Original Message- From: Deborah Fritz debo...@marcofquality.com Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 14:19:41 -0500 Just to expand on this slightly, according to 9.19.1.1 (“Make additions to the name as instructed at 9.19.1.2–9.19.1.6, in that order, as applicable”), we can only add the following elements from Chapter 9 as qualifiers to personal names: 9.19.1.2: Title or Other Designation Associated with the Person 9.19.1.3: Date of Birth and/or Death 9.19.1.4: Fuller Form of Name 9.19.1.5: Period of Activity of the Person 9.19.1.6: Profession or Occupation I'm not too happy with this limitation. I would prefer something like: Pieter Bruegel [Breughel, Brueghel] the Elder, called Peasant Bruegel, also called Pieter the Droll [Flemish painter] (c. 1525 - 1569) i.e. Flemish places the famous Droll in his cultural context. Very informative. Is this appellation too long ? Are we short of space on the current screens ? Even the smartphone screens are larger and larger these days :-) Dan Dan Matei director, Direcția Cercetare, Evidență a Patrimoniului Cultural Mobil, Imaterial și Digital [Movable, Intangible and Digital Heritage Department] (aka CIMEC) Institutul Național al Patrimoniului [National Heritage Institute] București [Bucharest, Romania] tel. (+4)021 317 90 72; fax (+4)021 317 90 64 www.cimec.ro
Re: [RDA-L] Separate bibliographic identities (was: RDA rule interpretations)
-Original Message- From: Heidrun Wiesenmüller wiesenmuel...@hdm-stuttgart.de Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 13:24:23 +0100 If it is indeed necessary to distinguish between different names/pseudonyms (of which I am not totally convinced), I think it would have to be done in a different way. If we try to design a theoretical model for the situation, I believe there shouldn't be just two entities with horizontal links, one for Robin Hobb and one for Megan Lindholm. Instead, there should be three entities: The third one would be a super entity which stands for the person as such, regardless of which face (i.e. name/pseudonym) he or she is showing to the world. This super entity would be hierarchically linked to the entities for Robin Hobb and Megan Lindholm. This super entity would be useful. When I search for Bill Clinton, I would like to get: Bill Clinton (as himself): n1 entities; Bill Clinton (as governor of Arkansas): n2 entities; Bill Clinton (as president of USA): n3 entities. Likewise: search for Frederic Dannay: Ellery Queen: m1 entities; Barnaby Ross: m2 entities. Likewise: search for Ferry: Brian Ferry: k1 entities; Brian Ferry and Roxy Music: k2 entities; Roxy Music: k3 entities. Possible ? Dan PS. Ilf and Petrov is simple :-) Dan Matei director, Direcția Cercetare, Evidență a Patrimoniului Cultural Mobil, Imaterial și Digital [Movable, Intangible and Digital Heritage Department] (aka CIMEC) Institutul Național al Patrimoniului [National Heritage Institute] București [Bucharest, Romania] tel. (+4)021 317 90 72; fax (+4)021 317 90 64 www.cimec.ro
Re: [RDA-L] FRBR
-Original Message- From: Brenndorfer, Thomas tbrenndor...@library.guelph.on.ca Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2011 18:11:53 -0400 world has not stopped with FRBR. There's FRBRoo for example, which integrates museum data with library data as outlined in FRBR, and so expands FRBR significantly with temporal entities: (http://archive.ifla.org/VII/s13/wgfrbr/FRBRoo_V9.1_PR.pdf). Data models doesn't suddenly cancel each other out or make their basis invalid-- extensions and modifications and integration and mutual enrichment should be welcome. The fresher edition (v.1.0.1) http://cidoc-crm.org/docs/frbr_oo/frbr_docs/FRBRoo_V1.0.1.pdf. Dan
Re: [RDA-L] FRBR
This reminds me of that moment: how hundreds of years worth of experience is on this list? And there is no agreement on something like *what is a work*?! How can we ever hope for any kind of consistency? Of course it goes without saying that with no consistency, everyone will be fated to stay on that merry-go-round of fixing everybody else's records. However, dear Jim... I'm afraid we tend to dramatise the edge cases. 87.34% of the users will perfectly understand when you state that an article is about Hamlet, the play or when you state that Mahler composed Das Klagende Lied or when you state that (say) The Falkner Estate owns the copyright on Absalom, Absalom !. So, the (abstract) idea of a work is quite common. And, as John Myers just reminded us, you (catalogers) used it extensively in the uniform titles. For ages, he said. Dan
Re: [RDA-L] FRBR
-Original Message- From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Kathleen Lamantia Sent: 8 aprilie 2011 15:41 I thought the entire purpose of FRBR/RDA was to collocate everything together so that patrons would see an entity-relationship display... therefore the book and the movie are only different expressions of the same work. So now, this is NOT the case? Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet and Zefirelli's Romeo and Juliet will be lexicographically collocated (at least written in Roman script :-), However, it is difficult (within the Western cultural conventions) to say they are the same work. Dan Dan Matei, director Institutul de Memorie Culturala [Institute for Cultural Memory] (CIMEC) Pia?a Presei Libere nr. 1, CP 33-90 013701 Bucure?ti [Bucharest], Romania Tel. (+4)21 317 90 72, Fax (+4)21 317 90 64 www.cimec.ro
Re: [RDA-L] FRBR
-Original Message- From: Stephen Early sea...@crl.edu Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2011 20:19:47 + This would be like someone thinking that a t-shirt with the Mona Lisa on it is the work of DaVinci. Which reminds me of Marcel Duchamp's L.H.O.O.Q. (Mona Lisa with a mustache) and the Andy Warhol silk screen prints of Mona Lisa. How would these fit into the FRBR model? (enjoying this very interesting discussion) Works by Duchamp and - respectively - Warhol. L.H.O.O.Q. isATransformationOf Mona Lisa (FRBR, Table 5.1) Four Marilyns isATransformationOf Mona Lisa Likewise: Sergei Rachmaninoff – Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini, Op. 43 Robert Schumann – Etudes After Paganini Caprices, Op. 3 Johannes Brahms – Variations on a Theme of Paganini, Op. 35 Luigi Dallapiccola – Sonatina canonica in mi bemolle maggiore su Capricci di Niccolo Paganini are related via isATransformationOf to Paganini's Caprice No. 24 in A minor. IMO. Dan --- Dan Matei, director Institutul de Memorie Culturală - CIMEC Piata Presei Libere nr. 1, CP 33-90 013701 București [Bucharest], Romania, www.cimec.ro tel. (+4)021 317 90 72; fax (+4)021 317 90 64 www.cimec.ro
Re: [RDA-L] Utility of FRBR/WEMI/RDA
-Original Message- From: Jonathan Rochkind rochk...@jhu.edu To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 17:31:32 -0400 Subject: Re: [RDA-L] Utility of FRBR/WEMI/RDA Yes, it's an arbitrary judgement. They are ALL arbitrary judgements, either way. I would prefer to call them cultural conventions. IMHO, they are not completely arbitrary: they are based on the evaluation of the amount of added creativity. Jonathan Jay Smith wrote: Although RDA may presuppose that an audiobook version of a book is an expression, is not doing so an arbitrary judgment? Not only is the format different, but it involves the participation of one or more readers or actors to interpret the text. To take it one step further, how should we describe the relationship of a play (text) and a performance of the play? Jay Towne Smith Senior Cataloger San Francisco Public Library Dan --- Dan Matei, director CIMEC - Institutul de Memorie Culturala [Institute for Cultural Memory] Piata Presei Libere nr. 1, CP 33-90 013701 București [Bucharest], Romania, www.cimec.ro tel. (+4)021 317 90 72; fax (+4)021 317 90 64 www.cimec.ro
Re: [RDA-L] FRBR, RDA, and Platonism
-Original Message- From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:rd...@infoserv.nlc-bnc.ca] On Behalf Of Weinheimer Jim Sent: 16 decembrie 2008 10:29 To: RDA-L@INFOSERV.NLC-BNC.CA Subject: Re: [RDA-L] FRBR, RDA, and Platonism Of course, there is a problem: almost nobody in the real world is interested in the work as such. Very few people indeed want the complete work of War and Peace, or of the Atlantic (Monthly) magazine. They want either specific expressions of War and Peace (English, French etc.), or they want individual articles or issues. People are also interested in different versions of expressions (e.g. translated by Constance Garnett into English, 1932 version) but very few are also interested in the Greek and Japanese expressions as well. Although some perhaps. Yes, of course. But an essay about War and Peace could be interested in the work W P, in its most abstract form (I was just about to use the word incarnation :-). Jim Weinheimer Dan
Re: [RDA-L] Open development : an example
-Original Message- From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bernhard Eversberg Sent: 25 noiembrie 2008 10:02 If, however, open development should be excluded due to a reluctance to make rule texts available for at least non-commercial re-use, as it is with AACR2, success of RDA will be impeded and even a split of the catalog sphere may very likely become unavoidable. This may well turn out the most crucial stumbling block on the road to acceptance and implementation. Esp., closed source text will hardly be accepted in the DC arena, and that means the DC-RDA collaboration and the outreach to other communities will remain academic or pie-in-the-sky. Or an alternative RDA-compatible will apear (not out-of-the-blue, of course :-) B.Eversberg Dan Matei Dan Matei, director CIMEC - Institutul de Memorie Culturala [Institute for Cultural Memory] Pia?a Presei Libere nr. 1, CP 33-90 Bucure?ti [Bucharest], Romania www.cimec.ro
Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA
-Original Message- From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Weinheimer Jim Sent: 10 noiembrie 2008 10:25 To: RDA-L@INFOSERV.NLC-BNC.CA Subject: Re: [RDA-L] libraries, society and RDA Dear Jim takes time to digest. Some good, solid examples of where a more coherent result is found in a library catalog vs. full-text retrieval may be a good idea. Easy :-) My (real) case: I was looking for Romanian material in Google Books (i.e. trying to locate digitized books qualifying for Romanian Patriotica). Tough ! Simplifying the matter, I was trying to locate: A. books in Romanian B. books about Romania Full view only :-( A. ... advanced search, language: Romanian and then as keys, several very Romanian words (like mamaliga [i.e. polenta], suflet [i.e. soul], ?ara [i.e. country], istorie [i.e. history], even daca [i.e. if], obiect [i.e. object] etc. etc. Poor crop, lot of wasted time. I felt like shooting crows, blindfolded. B. ... advanced search, key: Romania. 1,558 hits. Many only marginally related to Romania, plus some totally false hits. In contrast, in the LOC catalogue, (as expected) searching subject: Romania, within the first page (i.e. 100 headings, i.e. about 200 titles), maybe 2-3 titles are not relevant. Maybe Google could improve the score, if they would allow me (also) to limit my query only to metadata. Jim Weinheimer Dan Matei Dan Matei, director CIMEC - Institutul de Memorie Culturala [Institute for Cultural Memory] Pia?a Presei Libere nr. 1, CP 33-90 Bucure?ti [Bucharest], Romania www.cimec.ro
Re: [RDA-L] The Person entity [was: Comments from Martha M. Yee ... 1 of 2]
-Original Message- From: John Attig [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: RDA-L@INFOSERV.NLC-BNC.CA Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 13:39:07 -0400 Subject: Re: [RDA-L] The Person entity [was: Comments from Martha M. Yee ... 1 of 2] However, I would note that in 99.9% of the cases, the bibliographic identity and the biological person are identical. I would hate to torture the model in order to deal with that 0.1% that raise problems. Perhaps what we need is an element (data about data) that signals when the entity represents only the bibliographic identity and should therefore not be assumed to map to person entities in other data sources. I am not so sure that only 0.1% cases are problematic in libraryland. a) IMHO several authors creating a work form a bibliographic identity [BI]: Many will agree that Ellery Queen is a BI. If so, Ilf and Petrov form a BI too (even if they use 2 names). If so, The Cohen Brothers form a BI. If so, Nicolas Bourbaki ... If so, Rolling Stones form a BI ? When we start to call them 'corporate bodies' ? If 3 persons or more ? :-) b) IMHO, a person not speaking/writing (exactlly) for herself/himself forms a BI. E.g. Bill Clinton as Governor of Arkansas; Bill Clinton as Democrat presidential candidate; Bill Clinton as President of US. However (as a computer person) I do not see big difficulties to handle such complex BIs in practical bibliographic data models. John Dan Matei --- Dan Matei, director CIMEC - Institutul de Memorie Culturala [Institute for Cultural Memory] Piata Presei Libere nr. 1, CP 33-90 013701 Bucuresti [Bucharest], Romania tel. (+40-21) 317 90 72; fax (+40-21) 317 90 64 www.cimec.ro
[RDA-L] RDA resource (?)
? A (FRBR) expression is an RDA resource ? Dan Matei
Re: [RDA-L] Expression and Manifestation
-Original Message- From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Myers, John F. Sent: 7 aprilie 2008 17:49 To: RDA-L@INFOSERV.NLC-BNC.CA Subject: Re: [RDA-L] Expression and Manifestation I suspect that the addition of intellectual content in the form of music to create Fast food nation the symphony would render it a new, though related, work - W2 Sure. And not only in exceptional cases (like Schiller's An die Freude with Beethoven's music = the fourth movement of his 9th). The realization of Beethoven's 9th by Berlin Philharmonic directed by Karajan would be an expression. But Rogers' My Favourite Things performed by Coltrane is a new work ! So, it's still a matter of judgement when a musical performance is a realisation of a musical work or a new (derived) musical work. John Myers, Catalog Librarian Dan Matei
Re: [RDA-L] Expression and Manifestation
-Original Message- From: J. McRee Elrod [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: RDA-L@INFOSERV.NLC-BNC.CA Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 09:03:33 -0700 Subject: Re: [RDA-L] Expression and Manifestation The realization of Beethoven's 9th by Berlin Philharmonic directed by Karajan would be an expression. Ummm. From the bibliographic point of view, is an *event* any of the FRBR concepts? The recording, not the performance; the exhibition catalogue, not the exhibit; would be the expression/manifestation would it not? An event becomes a heading in the authority file, not a work/expression/manifestation record in the bibliographic file does it not? Sorry, I miss your point :-( The expression is an abstraction. In particular, the Karajan's realization of the 9th could manifeste itself in several events: the first concerto performance, the 2nd, the last rehearsal, etc. Some recorded, some broadcasted and some only remembered (i.e. recorded in people's memories). Ontologically, there is a big difference between a recorded event and an unrecorded one ? Perhaps I'll just shut SLC down rather than cope with this! How long do I have before this fragmentation of the bibliographic universe? Well, who said that in practice we have to blow-up completely our bibliographic universe ? Common sense will guide us as before. BTW, in my institution we record the post-war Romanian theatre productions. Practically, the production is represented by the premiere, but sometimes we record also a second (remarkable) performance of a production (another instance of the work/expression - I cannot say item :-) When something unusual happened, e.g. the main performer was replaced be a future star. So, please do not shut down SLC. Dan Matei
Re: [RDA-L] Expression and Manifestation
-Original Message- From: Karen Coyle [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: RDA-L@INFOSERV.NLC-BNC.CA Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 10:30:17 -0700 Subject: Re: [RDA-L] Expression and Manifestation If I go on like this I could convince myself that Work is such a vague concept that it hardly serves us at all as a principle of bibliographic description. There are relationships that are probably more important to users that we should focus on: But the trick called uniform title is not a useful collocation device ? What is it ? Not a bare bone work or expression ? All items (books, films, etc.) based on Mark Twain's Tom Sawyer. All items that cite or refer to MT's TS. MT's TS in the language of my choice. If you liked MT's TS, you might like ... Items/authors that might have influenced MT's TS. And your Mark Twain's Tom Sawyer what is it ? In this case it is not vague ? You refer naturally to a work. Dan
Re: Direct vs. inverted display of names
-Original Message- From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of J. McRee Elrod Sent: 21 ianuarie 2008 09:37 To: RDA-L@INFOSERV.NLC-BNC.CA Subject: Re: [RDA-L] Direct vs. inverted display of names *found* that way elsewhere in the record. Displaying Jim, Jones and Jim Jones would only cause confusion, since that is not what was found. __ __ J. McRee (Mac) Elrod ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Indeed, it would cause confusion. IMHO it should read Jim Jones (only). It's just natural. We inventend the Jones, Jim form in the old days when we were not able to generate a sort key out of the natural, display form. But now we are ! Dan Matei
Re: Direct vs. inverted display of names
-Original Message- From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Myers, John F. Sent: 21 ianuarie 2008 16:25 To: RDA-L@INFOSERV.NLC-BNC.CA Subject: Re: [RDA-L] Direct vs. inverted display of names ... George Washington in the G volume of the encyclopedia... I now look up people in Wikipedia by entering their name in direct order. Also I frequently do direct entry keyword searching in OCLC's authorities rather than inverted format, command line searching. Even better: take a look at http://www.answers.com/ In the search box, a) type: george was and see the offer; b) then type: washingt and see... Do you like what you see ? I do. John F. Myers, Catalog Librarian Dan Matei Dan Matei, director CIMEC - Institutul de Memorie Culturala [Institute for Cultural Memory] Piaţa Presei Libere nr. 1, CP 33-90 013701 Bucureşti [Bucharest], România tel. (+40-21) 317 90 72 fax (+40-21) 317 90 64 www.cimec.ro
Re: Alternate titles, an example of description broken into bits
What I would imagine we could is this: 245 14 $a The Hobbit 246 1? $a There and back again 246 1? $a The Hobbit, or, There and back again (I used ? for the 2nd indicator because I'm not sure what we would use, since we've kind of run out of indicator values, unless MARC 21 starts using alphabetic characters...) Kevin M. Randall In the schema I work on (PML, i.e. Panizzi Markup Language), alternative titles are encoded like this: informationObject levelRef=$item guid=039c0b08-659c-4c7e-9534- 6ff4320c04e2 updateTimestamp=2007-06-28T23:10:31 creationTimestamp=2007-06- 28T22:43:54 manifestationProperties titleAndResposibilityArea id=t titleProper id=tpThe Hobbit/titleProper oror/or alternativeTitle id=atThere and back again/alternativeTitle /titleAndResposibilityArea /manifestationProperties signaturepart ref=t//signature indexEntry sortKey=truetokenKey1 ref=tp//indexEntry indexEntry sortKey=truetokenKey1 ref=at//indexEntry /informationObject The schema allows complicated things, including parallel alternative titles The big challange is the cataloguing user interface for complex things, not the schemas. Dan --- Dan Matei, director CIMEC - Institutul de Memorie Culturala [Institute for Cultural Memory] Piata Presei Libere nr. 1, CP 33-90 013701 Bucuresti [Bucharest], Romania tel. (+40-21) 317 90 72; fax (+40-21) 317 90 64 www.cimec.ro
