Re: [RDA-L] approzimately in access points
I agree that the heading -approximately 250 borders on incoherence. died circa 250 is much less ambiguous. Do users really not know what ca. or circa means? It's in both Webster's and the OED. --Ben Benjamin Abrahamse Cataloging Coordinator Acquisitions, Metadata and Enterprise Systems MIT Libraries 617-253-7137 From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca] On Behalf Of Gene Fieg Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2013 2:43 PM To: RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca Subject: Re: [RDA-L] approzimately in access points And meanwhile the patron is wandering in the desert supplicating the deity for meaning. On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 11:25 AM, James Weinheimer weinheimer.ji...@gmail.commailto:weinheimer.ji...@gmail.com wrote: On 04/07/2013 18:07, Elizabeth O'Keefe wrote: snip On a somewhat related issue (it was raised in Mac's post), is anyone else bothered by the display when only a death date is known? Smith, John, -1932 /snip I have experienced the same thing. I recently cataloged an item with the subject heading: Agatha, Saint, -approximately 250. I copied and pasted it unthinkingly but when I was editing my record, I couldn't understand what this meant, and it was only when I realized that the earlier heading was: Agatha, Saint, d. ca. 250 and the d. was changed to a hyphen, and the ca. was changed to approximately, did I understand what the heading was supposed to say. But that was only because I know the AACR2 heading. The new heading is incoherent. -- James Weinheimer weinheimer.ji...@gmail.commailto:weinheimer.ji...@gmail.com First Thus http://catalogingmatters.blogspot.com/ First Thus Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/FirstThus Cooperative Cataloging Rules http://sites.google.com/site/opencatalogingrules/ Cataloging Matters Podcasts http://blog.jweinheimer.net/p/cataloging-matters-podcasts.html -- Gene Fieg Cataloger/Serials Librarian Claremont School of Theology gf...@cst.edumailto:gf...@cst.edu Claremont School of Theology and Claremont Lincoln University do not represent or endorse the accuracy or reliability of any of the information or content contained in this forwarded email. The forwarded email is that of the original sender and does not represent the views of Claremont School of Theology or Claremont Lincoln University. It has been forwarded as a courtesy for information only.
Re: [RDA-L] approzimately in access points
I think it’s more to do with “political correctness” than universality. less surprising, then, that you end up with obscurity rather than clarity as a result!! ;-) Martin Kelleher Metadata Manager University of Liverpool From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Benjamin A Abrahamse Sent: 05 July 2013 14:32 To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA Subject: Re: [RDA-L] approzimately in access points I agree that the heading -approximately 250 borders on incoherence. died circa 250 is much less ambiguous. Do users really not know what ca. or circa means? It's in both Webster's and the OED. --Ben Benjamin Abrahamse Cataloging Coordinator Acquisitions, Metadata and Enterprise Systems MIT Libraries 617-253-7137 From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca] On Behalf Of Gene Fieg Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2013 2:43 PM To: RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.camailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca Subject: Re: [RDA-L] approzimately in access points And meanwhile the patron is wandering in the desert supplicating the deity for meaning. On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 11:25 AM, James Weinheimer weinheimer.ji...@gmail.commailto:weinheimer.ji...@gmail.com wrote: On 04/07/2013 18:07, Elizabeth O'Keefe wrote: snip On a somewhat related issue (it was raised in Mac's post), is anyone else bothered by the display when only a death date is known? Smith, John, -1932 /snip I have experienced the same thing. I recently cataloged an item with the subject heading: Agatha, Saint, -approximately 250. I copied and pasted it unthinkingly but when I was editing my record, I couldn't understand what this meant, and it was only when I realized that the earlier heading was: Agatha, Saint, d. ca. 250 and the d. was changed to a hyphen, and the ca. was changed to approximately, did I understand what the heading was supposed to say. But that was only because I know the AACR2 heading. The new heading is incoherent. -- James Weinheimer weinheimer.ji...@gmail.commailto:weinheimer.ji...@gmail.com First Thus http://catalogingmatters.blogspot.com/ First Thus Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/FirstThus Cooperative Cataloging Rules http://sites.google.com/site/opencatalogingrules/ Cataloging Matters Podcasts http://blog.jweinheimer.net/p/cataloging-matters-podcasts.html -- Gene Fieg Cataloger/Serials Librarian Claremont School of Theology gf...@cst.edumailto:gf...@cst.edu Claremont School of Theology and Claremont Lincoln University do not represent or endorse the accuracy or reliability of any of the information or content contained in this forwarded email. The forwarded email is that of the original sender and does not represent the views of Claremont School of Theology or Claremont Lincoln University. It has been forwarded as a courtesy for information only.
Re: [RDA-L] approzimately in access points
If circa is too Latinate--even though, to reiterate, it is a perfectly good English word--then why not just around (which is essentially what circa means)? Agatha, Saint, died around 250. Tilting at RDA windmills, Ben Benjamin Abrahamse Cataloging Coordinator Acquisitions, Metadata and Enterprise Systems MIT Libraries 617-253-7137 From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca] On Behalf Of Kelleher, Martin Sent: Friday, July 05, 2013 10:36 AM To: RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca Subject: Re: [RDA-L] approzimately in access points I think it's more to do with political correctness than universality. less surprising, then, that you end up with obscurity rather than clarity as a result!! ;-) Martin Kelleher Metadata Manager University of Liverpool From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Benjamin A Abrahamse Sent: 05 July 2013 14:32 To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CAmailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA Subject: Re: [RDA-L] approzimately in access points I agree that the heading -approximately 250 borders on incoherence. died circa 250 is much less ambiguous. Do users really not know what ca. or circa means? It's in both Webster's and the OED. --Ben Benjamin Abrahamse Cataloging Coordinator Acquisitions, Metadata and Enterprise Systems MIT Libraries 617-253-7137 From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca] On Behalf Of Gene Fieg Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2013 2:43 PM To: RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.camailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca Subject: Re: [RDA-L] approzimately in access points And meanwhile the patron is wandering in the desert supplicating the deity for meaning. On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 11:25 AM, James Weinheimer weinheimer.ji...@gmail.commailto:weinheimer.ji...@gmail.com wrote: On 04/07/2013 18:07, Elizabeth O'Keefe wrote: snip On a somewhat related issue (it was raised in Mac's post), is anyone else bothered by the display when only a death date is known? Smith, John, -1932 /snip I have experienced the same thing. I recently cataloged an item with the subject heading: Agatha, Saint, -approximately 250. I copied and pasted it unthinkingly but when I was editing my record, I couldn't understand what this meant, and it was only when I realized that the earlier heading was: Agatha, Saint, d. ca. 250 and the d. was changed to a hyphen, and the ca. was changed to approximately, did I understand what the heading was supposed to say. But that was only because I know the AACR2 heading. The new heading is incoherent. -- James Weinheimer weinheimer.ji...@gmail.commailto:weinheimer.ji...@gmail.com First Thus http://catalogingmatters.blogspot.com/ First Thus Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/FirstThus Cooperative Cataloging Rules http://sites.google.com/site/opencatalogingrules/ Cataloging Matters Podcasts http://blog.jweinheimer.net/p/cataloging-matters-podcasts.html -- Gene Fieg Cataloger/Serials Librarian Claremont School of Theology gf...@cst.edumailto:gf...@cst.edu Claremont School of Theology and Claremont Lincoln University do not represent or endorse the accuracy or reliability of any of the information or content contained in this forwarded email. The forwarded email is that of the original sender and does not represent the views of Claremont School of Theology or Claremont Lincoln University. It has been forwarded as a courtesy for information only.
Re: [RDA-L] approzimately in access points
We do have a separate field in the authority format to indicate uncertainty
about dates. RDA distinguishes between probable and approximate dates. EDTF
distinguishes between uncertain and approximate dates (
http://www.loc.gov/standards/datetime/pre-submission.html#uncertain ). EDTF
dates can be used in authority field 046, but we don't as yet have ways of
using those to generate access points.
I agree with those who say some access points produced by RDA as interpreted by
LC-PCC can be too long and unintelligible. We should take a clue from how
names and dates are presented for display in other contexts, such as museums.
It is common in some contexts to display dates within parentheses, but is there
any context where dates would be shown as just -1932?
--
John Hostage
Senior Continuing Resources Cataloger
Harvard Library--Information and Technical Services
Langdell Hall 194
Harvard Law School Library
Cambridge, MA 02138
host...@law.harvard.edu
+(1)(617) 495-3974 (voice)
+(1)(617) 496-4409 (fax)
From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access
[RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] on behalf of Elizabeth O'Keefe
[eoke...@themorgan.org]
Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2013 12:07
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] approzimately in access points
In the best of all possible worlds, lack of certainty about a piece of
information such as a birth or death date could be expressed in a
separate field, from which displays could be generated using whatever
terminology was preferred (ca., circa, approximately, ?). This
is more or less what CCO (Cataloging Cultural Objects) does. In the
environment we are working in, a question mark would be preferable to
approximately. The headings are way too long, especially if both the
birth and the death date are approximate, as often happens with
pre-modern names.
On a somewhat related issue (it was raised in Mac's post), is anyone
else bothered by the display when only a death date is known?
Smith, John, -1932
The hyphen looks like a typo (as if it should come after the date) or
like a minus sign; a user asked (jokingly, but ...), was this a B.C.
date? Prefixing a death date, when only that date is available, with
died would be a lot clearer.
Liz O'Keefe
Elizabeth O'Keefe
Director of Collection Information Systems
The Morgan Library Museum
225 Madison Avenue
New York, NY 10016-3405
TEL: 212 590-0380
FAX: 212-768-5680
NET: eoke...@themorgan.org
Visit CORSAIR, the Library’s comprehensive collections catalog:
http://corsair.themorgan.org
Lasater, Mary Charles mary.c.lasa...@vanderbilt.edu 7/4/2013
10:05 AM
Mac,
This seems like a suggestion that would serve two purposes... 1.
eliminate a very long access point ...
2. eliminate confusion about when to use 'approximately' vs. the
question mark.
I like this suggestion.
Mary Charles Lasater
-Original Message-
From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of J. McRee Elrod
Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 11:58 PM
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: [RDA-L] approzimately in access points
Autocatters RDA-lers,
It was my assumption that we would have to follow LC/LAC authority
forms. But we are encountering opposition to approximately replacing
ca., and I agree. It makes an unsightly access point.
I'm suggesting we weplace ca. and approximately with a question
mark following the year before which either of these appear. (Perhaps
by the time linked data comes, RDA will have made that change, as they
replaced b. and d. with hyphens after or before the year.)
More than a score of things our clients have demanded have shown up in
rules since 1979. Our clients can't be the only ones who don't like
those cumbersome access points?
__ __ J. McRee (Mac) Elrod (m...@slc.bc.ca)
{__ | / Special Libraries Cataloguing http://www.slc.bc.ca/
___} |__ \__
Re: [RDA-L] approzimately in access points
Mac,
This seems like a suggestion that would serve two purposes... 1. eliminate a
very long access point ...
2. eliminate confusion about when to use 'approximately' vs. the question
mark.
I like this suggestion.
Mary Charles Lasater
-Original Message-
From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of J. McRee Elrod
Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 11:58 PM
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: [RDA-L] approzimately in access points
Autocatters RDA-lers,
It was my assumption that we would have to follow LC/LAC authority forms. But
we are encountering opposition to approximately replacing ca., and I agree.
It makes an unsightly access point.
I'm suggesting we weplace ca. and approximately with a question mark
following the year before which either of these appear. (Perhaps by the time
linked data comes, RDA will have made that change, as they replaced b. and
d. with hyphens after or before the year.)
More than a score of things our clients have demanded have shown up in rules
since 1979. Our clients can't be the only ones who don't like those cumbersome
access points?
__ __ J. McRee (Mac) Elrod (m...@slc.bc.ca)
{__ | / Special Libraries Cataloguing HTTP://www.slc.bc.ca/
___} |__ \__
Re: [RDA-L] approzimately in access points
In the best of all possible worlds, lack of certainty about a piece of
information such as a birth or death date could be expressed in a
separate field, from which displays could be generated using whatever
terminology was preferred (ca., circa, approximately, ?). This
is more or less what CCO (Cataloging Cultural Objects) does. In the
environment we are working in, a question mark would be preferable to
approximately. The headings are way too long, especially if both the
birth and the death date are approximate, as often happens with
pre-modern names.
On a somewhat related issue (it was raised in Mac's post), is anyone
else bothered by the display when only a death date is known?
Smith, John, -1932
The hyphen looks like a typo (as if it should come after the date) or
like a minus sign; a user asked (jokingly, but ...), was this a B.C.
date? Prefixing a death date, when only that date is available, with
died would be a lot clearer.
Liz O'Keefe
Elizabeth O'Keefe
Director of Collection Information Systems
The Morgan Library Museum
225 Madison Avenue
New York, NY 10016-3405
TEL: 212 590-0380
FAX: 212-768-5680
NET: eoke...@themorgan.org
Visit CORSAIR, the Library’s comprehensive collections catalog:
http://corsair.themorgan.org
Lasater, Mary Charles mary.c.lasa...@vanderbilt.edu 7/4/2013
10:05 AM
Mac,
This seems like a suggestion that would serve two purposes... 1.
eliminate a very long access point ...
2. eliminate confusion about when to use 'approximately' vs. the
question mark.
I like this suggestion.
Mary Charles Lasater
-Original Message-
From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of J. McRee Elrod
Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 11:58 PM
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: [RDA-L] approzimately in access points
Autocatters RDA-lers,
It was my assumption that we would have to follow LC/LAC authority
forms. But we are encountering opposition to approximately replacing
ca., and I agree. It makes an unsightly access point.
I'm suggesting we weplace ca. and approximately with a question
mark following the year before which either of these appear. (Perhaps
by the time linked data comes, RDA will have made that change, as they
replaced b. and d. with hyphens after or before the year.)
More than a score of things our clients have demanded have shown up in
rules since 1979. Our clients can't be the only ones who don't like
those cumbersome access points?
__ __ J. McRee (Mac) Elrod (m...@slc.bc.ca)
{__ | / Special Libraries Cataloguing http://www.slc.bc.ca/
___} |__ \__
Re: [RDA-L] approzimately in access points
On 04/07/2013 18:07, Elizabeth O'Keefe wrote: snip On a somewhat related issue (it was raised in Mac's post), is anyone else bothered by the display when only a death date is known? Smith, John, -1932 /snip I have experienced the same thing. I recently cataloged an item with the subject heading: Agatha, Saint, -approximately 250. I copied and pasted it unthinkingly but when I was editing my record, I couldn't understand what this meant, and it was only when I realized that the earlier heading was: **Agatha,**Saint,**d. ca. 250 and the d. was changed to a hyphen, and the ca. was changed to approximately, did I understand what the heading was supposed to say. But that was only because I know the AACR2 heading. The new heading is incoherent. -- *James Weinheimer* weinheimer.ji...@gmail.com *First Thus* http://catalogingmatters.blogspot.com/ *First Thus Facebook Page* https://www.facebook.com/FirstThus *Cooperative Cataloging Rules* http://sites.google.com/site/opencatalogingrules/ *Cataloging Matters Podcasts* http://blog.jweinheimer.net/p/cataloging-matters-podcasts.html
Re: [RDA-L] approzimately in access points
And meanwhile the patron is wandering in the desert supplicating the deity for meaning. On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 11:25 AM, James Weinheimer weinheimer.ji...@gmail.com wrote: On 04/07/2013 18:07, Elizabeth O'Keefe wrote: snip On a somewhat related issue (it was raised in Mac's post), is anyone else bothered by the display when only a death date is known? Smith, John, -1932 /snip I have experienced the same thing. I recently cataloged an item with the subject heading: Agatha, Saint, -approximately 250. I copied and pasted it unthinkingly but when I was editing my record, I couldn't understand what this meant, and it was only when I realized that the earlier heading was: **Agatha,* *Saint,* *d. ca. 250 and the d. was changed to a hyphen, and the ca. was changed to approximately, did I understand what the heading was supposed to say. But that was only because I know the AACR2 heading. The new heading is incoherent. -- *James Weinheimer* weinheimer.ji...@gmail.com *First Thus* http://catalogingmatters.blogspot.com/ *First Thus Facebook Page* https://www.facebook.com/FirstThus *Cooperative Cataloging Rules* http://sites.google.com/site/opencatalogingrules/ *Cataloging Matters Podcasts* http://blog.jweinheimer.net/p/cataloging-matters-podcasts.html -- Gene Fieg Cataloger/Serials Librarian Claremont School of Theology gf...@cst.edu Claremont School of Theology and Claremont Lincoln University do not represent or endorse the accuracy or reliability of any of the information or content contained in this forwarded email. The forwarded email is that of the original sender and does not represent the views of Claremont School of Theology or Claremont Lincoln University. It has been forwarded as a courtesy for information only.
[RDA-L] approzimately in access points
Autocatters RDA-lers,
It was my assumption that we would have to follow LC/LAC authority
forms. But we are encountering opposition to approximately replacing
ca., and I agree. It makes an unsightly access point.
I'm suggesting we weplace ca. and approximately with a question
mark following the year before which either of these appear. (Perhaps
by the time linked data comes, RDA will have made that change, as they
replaced b. and d. with hyphens after or before the year.)
More than a score of things our clients have demanded have shown up in
rules since 1979. Our clients can't be the only ones who don't like
those cumbersome access points?
__ __ J. McRee (Mac) Elrod (m...@slc.bc.ca)
{__ | / Special Libraries Cataloguing HTTP://www.slc.bc.ca/
___} |__ \__
