Re: [RE-wrenches] EnPhase male whips

[Nick Soleil]

William:
Your diagram is one way to do it, in fact, I always divide my circuits into 
2 sub-circuits, to minimize voltage drop on the Enphase wiring, and then 
parallel the sub-circuits at the j-box.  However, there is a value to having a 
male cable.   They can simplify some installations, such as the situation that 
Eric described.  As mentioned before, the extension cable can be cut, and the 
other end is used as a standard whip.
Nick Soleil
Project Manager
Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
PO Box 657
Petaluma, CA 94953
Cell:   707-321-2937
Office: 707-789-9537
Fax:707-769-9037





From: William Miller 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 6:22:33 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] EnPhase male whips

 Eric:

You connect the factory provided termination kit to the Enphase array on each 
roof.  All of the Enphase inverters on one array do not need to be in a daisy 
configuration.

I have attached a drawing hat should illustrate


William Miller
805-440-5161 Cell



At 11:06 AM 1/20/2011, you wrote:


I know its a funny title butwhy doesn't EnPhase make whips with male 
connectors? We are having trouble laying out a system with multiple sub arrays. 
We need to cable to sub arrays that are on different roof planes in order to 
make up our circuits. From 5 micros on roof one, into attic, out of SolaDeck on 
roof two, grab 3 more micros, back into SolaDeck, into attic for home run. The 
whip from the SolDeck to the last 3 micros needs to be male... any suggestions? 
EnPhase does not want us to cut an extension that has connectors on both ends...
>
>Thanks, 
>Eric Thomas 
>Solar Epiphany
>Seattle
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>No virus found in this message.
>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>Version: 10.0.1191 / Virus Database: 1435/3393 - Release Date: 01/20/11
Please note new e-mail address and domain:

William Miller 
Miller Solar
Voice :805-438-5600
email: will...@millersolar.com
http://millersolar.com
License No. C-10-773985



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Re: [RE-wrenches] EnPhase male whips

[William Miller]

Eric:

You connect the factory provided termination kit to the Enphase array on 
each roof.  All of the Enphase inverters on one array do not need to be in 
a daisy configuration.


I have attached a drawing hat should illustrate


William Miller
805-440-5161 Cell



At 11:06 AM 1/20/2011, you wrote:

I know its a funny title butwhy doesn't EnPhase make whips with male 
connectors? We are having trouble laying out a system with multiple sub 
arrays. We need to cable to sub arrays that are on different roof planes 
in order to make up our circuits. From 5 micros on roof one, into attic, 
out of SolaDeck on roof two, grab 3 more micros, back into SolaDeck, into 
attic for home run. The whip from the SolDeck to the last 3 micros needs 
to be male... any suggestions? EnPhase does not want us to cut an 
extension that has connectors on both ends...


Thanks,
Eric Thomas
Solar Epiphany
Seattle
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No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 10.0.1191 / Virus Database: 1435/3393 - Release Date: 01/20/11


Please note new e-mail address and domain:

William Miller
Miller Solar
Voice :805-438-5600
email: will...@millersolar.com
http://millersolar.com
License No. C-10-773985


VISIO-Enphase multi-rack.pdf
Description: Adobe PDF document
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 10A Charge / load controller

[Maverick Brown [Maverick Solar]]

Try SunSaver MPPT. 

15 amps, MPPT and load control (or light) control

Use the MSC to connect the controller to your PC and adjust many settings and 
get log data. 

We use a lot of them and have had very few issues. 

Thank you,

Maverick


Maverick Brown
BSEET, NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer ®
President & CEO
Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc.
Office: 512-919-4493
Cell:512-460-9825

Sent from an iPhone. 

On Jan 20, 2011, at 5:37 PM, "Jason Szumlanski"  wrote:

> I’m looking for a ~10A charge controller for a 12V battery with adjustable 
> LVD that goes up to at least 12V. Priorities in order are:
> 
>  
> 
> 1.   Small in size
> 
> 2.   Good
> 
> 3.   Cheap
> 
>  
> 
> The best I can come up with now is the Xantrex C12. Looking for alternatives. 
> Recommendations?
> 
>  
> 
> Jason Szumlanski
> 
> Fafco Solar
> 
>  
>   
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Re: [RE-wrenches] EnPhase male whips

[Jason Szumlanski]

I'm looking for a ~10A charge controller for a 12V battery with
adjustable LVD that goes up to at least 12V. Priorities in order are:

 

1.   Small in size

2.   Good

3.   Cheap

 

The best I can come up with now is the Xantrex C12. Looking for
alternatives. Recommendations?

 

Jason Szumlanski

Fafco Solar

 
  
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Re: [RE-wrenches] EnPhase male whips

[Kent Osterberg]

Eric,

Why doesn't a female whip (the standard Enphase branch circuit kit
component) work?  Seems like both subarrays should have a female whip
going to a SolaDeck.  Then from both SolaDecks to a j-box in the attic.

Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar.


Eric Thomas wrote:

  I know its a funny title butwhy doesn't EnPhase make whips
with male connectors? We are having trouble laying out a system with
multiple sub arrays. We need to cable to sub arrays that are on
different roof planes in order to make up our circuits. From 5 micros
on roof one, into attic, out of SolaDeck on roof two, grab 3 more
micros, back into SolaDeck, into attic for home run. The whip from the
SolDeck to the last 3 micros needs to be male... any suggestions?
EnPhase does not want us to cut an extension that has connectors on
both ends...
   Thanks, 
Eric Thomas 
Solar Epiphany
Seattle
  

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Re: [RE-wrenches] EnPhase male whips

[Jesse Dahl]

Does cutting the end off change any UL listing?  

I'm going to be installing a similar system for the lab facility at school, and 
see the same problem coming my way. 

Jesse


Jesse

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 20, 2011, at 1:37 PM, Kent Osterberg  wrote:

> Eric,
> 
> If the male end is energized when disconnected, it's a hazard!
> 
> Kent Osterberg
> Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
> 
> 
> Eric Thomas wrote:
>> 
>> I know its a funny title butwhy doesn't EnPhase make whips with male 
>> connectors? We are having trouble laying out a system with multiple sub 
>> arrays. We need to cable to sub arrays that are on different roof planes in 
>> order to make up our circuits. From 5 micros on roof one, into attic, out of 
>> SolaDeck on roof two, grab 3 more micros, back into SolaDeck, into attic for 
>> home run. The whip from the SolDeck to the last 3 micros needs to be male... 
>> any suggestions? EnPhase does not want us to cut an extension that has 
>> connectors on both ends...
>> 
>> Thanks, 
>> Eric Thomas 
>> Solar Epiphany
>> Seattle
>> 
>> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter oversizing

[David Brearley]

I see what your looking at; I was comparing Figures 3 & 4, not 2 & 3.


On 1/20/11 2:21 PM, "Kent Osterberg"  wrote:

> David,
> 
> Take a close look at the upper and lowers portions of the graphs of the
> 10-second data and the 1-minute data for Freiburg.
> 
> To make it easier to see, attached is reproduction of their graphs on one
> page. Just as fleeting peaks in irradiance (edge of cloud effect) should be
> fewer in the 1 minute averages than in the 10 second raw data; fleeting lows
> (caused by passing clouds) should be fewer in the 1 minute averages than in
> the 10-second data. Inspect the graph and label which you think is 10-second
> data and which you think is 1-minute data. Then compare to the original. The
> two graphs appear to be mislabeled.
> 
> Kent Osterberg
> Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
> 
> 
> 
> David Brearley wrote:
>>  Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter oversizing Kent,
>>  
>> The graphs aren¹t mislabeled. The one-minute average data has more
>> granularity, which shows up at the upper limits of the data. It reveals more
>> peaks over 1,000 W/m2, even in excess of 1,200 W/m2. These values get
>> compressed into the lower bins in the hourly data.
>>  
>> The results from the Florianopolis site in Brazil, gives a pretty good idea
>> of how significantly different the results can be based on monitoring
>> frequency:
>>  
>> ³Considerable differences emerge when looking at the high end of the
>> radiation level
>> Distribution, which shows for the one-minute averages that some 9% of the
>> daytime 
>> hours present radiation levels „ 1000W/m2, with a corresponding energy
>> content of
>> some 23%; hourly averages for the same range correspond to around 6% of
>> daytime 
>> hours, and below 11% of the total energy content. Radiation levels above
>> 900W/m2 
>> occur some 16% of the time when looking at one-minute averages, and below 13%
>> of daytime hours when using hourly averages, with corresponding energy
>> fractions 
>> respectively above 38% and 25%.²
>>  
>>> >From the conclusion:
>>  
>> ³we have demonstrated that the estimation of the actual losses due to
>> inverter
>> undersizing increases with increased time resolution of the radiation
>> measurements, 
>> revealing that hourly averages hide important irradiation peaks. In fact,
>> results with 
>> hourly averages are an experimental artifact, and lead to an estimation of
>> the solar 
>> energy resource distribution that does not correspond to reality. Hourly
>> averages of
>> irradiation values lead to inverter undersizing and the associated energy
>> losses.²
>>  
>> Figures 8 & 9 are interesting. You could imagine what these results would
>> look like if overlaid onto your charts.
>>  
>> Best, david
>>  
>> On 1/19/11 8:14 PM, "Kent Osterberg"  wrote:
>>  
>>   
>>> David,
>>>  
>>> Thanks for sharing that paper.  The labeling the graphs for the 10-second
>>> and 1-minute data in Freiburg appears to be reversed - the one minute
>>> averaging seems to have more data in all of the bins above 1000 W/sq m.
>>> Basically, these graphs show that irradiance observations above 1100 watts
>>> per square meter are fleeting and disappear in hourly averages.   Such
>>> occurrences are also masked to a small extent by 1-minute averages.
>>>  
>>> Kent Osterberg
>>> Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>> David Brearley wrote:
>>>   
  Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter oversizing This reminds me of a scholarly
 article I came across about a year ago while doing some research. Here¹s a
 link to it if anyone is interested:
  
 www.lepten.ufsc.br/publicacoes/solar/eventos/2005/PSC/burger_ruther.pdf
  
  
  
 David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor
  SolarPro magazine
 NABCEP Certified PV Installer 
  david.brear...@solarprofessional.com
 Direct: 541.261.6545
  
 On 1/19/11 12:29 PM, "Bill Brooks"  wrote:
  
   
   
> Kent,
>  
> How often were your data records? To capture edge of cloud effects, you
> need one-second data. Not many people gather that fast or that much data
> on inverters. I don¹t think there is that much energy in these spikes, but
> they are real and make some difference. 15-minute average data will
> completely wash out this data.
>  
> This is also a deficiency in modeling software since most models are using
> hourly data.
>  
> Bill.
>  
>  
>   From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kent
> Osterberg
>  Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2011 1:18 PM
>  To: Wrenches; Marco Mangelsdorf
>  Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter oversizing
>   
>  
> Attached is a graph that I produced to document the effect of various
> ratios betwe

Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter oversizing

[Kent Osterberg]

David,

Take a close look at the upper and lowers portions of the graphs of the
10-second data and the 1-minute data for Freiburg.  

To make it easier to see, attached is reproduction of their graphs on
one page. Just as fleeting peaks in irradiance (edge of cloud effect)
should be fewer in the 1 minute averages than in the 10 second raw
data; fleeting lows (caused by passing clouds) should be fewer in the 1
minute averages than in the 10-second data. Inspect the graph and label
which you think is 10-second data and which you think is 1-minute data.
Then compare to the original. The two graphs appear to be mislabeled.

Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.



David Brearley wrote:

  Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter oversizing
  Kent, 
  
The graphs aren’t mislabeled. The one-minute average data has more
granularity, which shows up at the upper limits of the data. It reveals
more peaks over 1,000 W/m2, even in excess of 1,200 W/m2. These values
get compressed into the lower bins in the hourly data.
  
The results from the Florianopolis site in Brazil, gives a pretty good
idea of how significantly different the results can be based on
monitoring frequency:
  
“Considerable differences emerge when looking at the high end of the
radiation level
Distribution, which shows for the one-minute averages that some 9% of
the daytime 
hours present radiation levels ≥ 1000W/m2, with a corresponding energy
content of
some 23%; hourly averages for the same range correspond to around 6% of
daytime 
hours, and below 11% of the total energy content. Radiation levels
above 900W/m2 
occur some 16% of the time when looking at one-minute averages, and
below 13% 
of daytime hours when using hourly averages, with corresponding energy
fractions 
respectively above 38% and 25%.”
  
>From the conclusion:
  
“we have demonstrated that the estimation of the actual losses due to
inverter
undersizing increases with increased time resolution of the radiation
measurements, 
revealing that hourly averages hide important irradiation peaks. In
fact, results with 
hourly averages are an experimental artifact, and lead to an estimation
of the solar 
energy resource distribution that does not correspond to reality.
Hourly averages of
irradiation values lead to inverter undersizing and the associated
energy losses.”
  
Figures 8 & 9 are interesting. You could imagine what these results
would look like if overlaid onto your charts. 
  
Best, david
  
On 1/19/11 8:14 PM, "Kent Osterberg"  wrote:
  
  
  David,

Thanks for sharing that paper.  The labeling the graphs for the
10-second and 1-minute data in Freiburg appears to be reversed - the
one minute averaging seems to have more data in all of the bins above
1000 W/sq m.  Basically, these graphs show that irradiance observations
above 1100 watts per square meter are fleeting and disappear in hourly
averages.   Such occurrences are also masked to a small extent by
1-minute averages.
 
Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.



David Brearley wrote: 

 Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter oversizing This
reminds me of a scholarly article I came across about a year ago while
doing some research. Here’s a link to it if anyone is interested:
 
www.lepten.ufsc.br/publicacoes/solar/eventos/2005/PSC/burger_ruther.pdf

  
 
David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor
 SolarPro magazine 
NABCEP Certified PV Installer ™
 david.brear...@solarprofessional.com
Direct: 541.261.6545
 
On 1/19/11 12:29 PM, "Bill Brooks"  wrote:
 
  
  
  Kent,
 
How often were your data records? To capture edge of cloud effects, you
need one-second data. Not many people gather that fast or that much
data on inverters. I don’t think there is that much energy in these
spikes, but they are real and make some difference. 15-minute average
data will completely wash out this data.
 
This is also a deficiency in modeling software since most models are
using hourly data.
 
Bill.
 
 
 From:
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]
On Behalf Of Kent Osterberg
 Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2011 1:18 PM
 To: Wrenches; Marco Mangelsdorf
 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter oversizing
  
 
Attached is a graph that I produced to document the effect of various
ratios between the PV array size and the inverter size.  I extracted
output power data for a 1020-watt system located in NE Oregon that is
on the Sunny Portal 
. The data are publicly accessible so feel free to run your own
analysis.  Better yet, analyze the data for a system near you.  
 
Using 2009 data, I looked at how much energy would have been lost if
the output was clipped at 800W, 810W,  1020W.  I used 20

Re: [RE-wrenches] EnPhase male whips

[Kent Osterberg]

Eric,

If the male end is energized when disconnected, it's a hazard!

Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.


Eric Thomas wrote:

  I know its a funny title butwhy doesn't EnPhase make whips
with male connectors? We are having trouble laying out a system with
multiple sub arrays. We need to cable to sub arrays that are on
different roof planes in order to make up our circuits. From 5 micros
on roof one, into attic, out of SolaDeck on roof two, grab 3 more
micros, back into SolaDeck, into attic for home run. The whip from the
SolDeck to the last 3 micros needs to be male... any suggestions?
EnPhase does not want us to cut an extension that has connectors on
both ends...
   Thanks, 
Eric Thomas 
Solar Epiphany
Seattle
  

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Re: [RE-wrenches] EnPhase male whips

[August Goers]

We cut the extensions too. What other options are there when you have
multiple sub arrays all over the place? Enphase told us not to cut the
inverter leads which makes sense but I don't see any problem in cutting the
extensions.



Best,



August





August Goers



Luminalt Energy Corporation

1320 Potrero Avenue

San Francisco, CA 94110

m: 415.559.1525

o: 415.641.4000

aug...@luminalt.com





*From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Chad Waits
*Sent:* Thursday, January 20, 2011 11:33 AM
*To:* 'RE-wrenches'
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] EnPhase male whips



We cut the extensions all the time to jump from deck to deck. You used to
have to have the proper pin out schematic to pair the proper wires but now
they’re labeled L1,L2,L3, and then a green yellow wire for neutral. Just cap
the L3 if you’re not using it for 3 phase.



Best,



*Chad Waits*

*Net Zero **Solar***

*520.270.4873*

*chadwa...@netzerosolar.net*



*From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Eric Thomas
*Sent:* Thursday, January 20, 2011 12:06 PM
*To:* re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] EnPhase male whips



I know its a funny title butwhy doesn't EnPhase make whips with male
connectors? We are having trouble laying out a system with multiple sub
arrays. We need to cable to sub arrays that are on different roof planes in
order to make up our circuits. From 5 micros on roof one, into attic, out of
SolaDeck on roof two, grab 3 more micros, back into SolaDeck, into attic for
home run. The whip from the SolDeck to the last 3 micros needs to be male...
any suggestions? EnPhase does not want us to cut an extension that has
connectors on both ends...

Thanks,
Eric Thomas
Solar Epiphany
Seattle
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter oversizing

[Darryl Thayer]

I have REC 215 on Enphase 190.  I see a lot of clipping.  Every sunny day in 
the 
winter and spring.  I have some data but it is only 15 minute, and I see this 
happen even in june.  






From: Drake 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 8:23:55 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter oversizing

On a couple of Enphase systems I monitor regularly, the modules are oversized 
compared to the inverters.  One system has Sharp 224 W modules and M-190s 
(capable of producing 199 W).  The array is a ground mount at a 30 degree tilt 
at 39+ degrees latitude.  


When the system was new in the autumn, I noticed two days of some clipping.  
Since then, none.  In the summer, when the sun angle is better, the heat will 
keep the wattage down so clipping will very seldom occur.  The modules will not 
be close to STC, so the inverters should not be pushed to their maximum.

The same is true of string inverters.  Since real power of the modules in 
generally significantly below the nameplate, inverters will generally not run 
at 
maximum power.   When we take in all the factors affecting the actual array 
power, I think that 120% over sizing from nameplate wattage is generally safe. 


Drake


At 09:14 PM 1/19/2011, you wrote:

David,
>
>Thanks for sharing that paper.  The labeling the graphs for the 10-second and 
>1-minute data in Freiburg appears to be reversed - the one minute averaging 
>seems to have more data in all of the bins above 1000 W/sq m.  Basically, 
>these 
>graphs show that irradiance observations above 1100 watts per square meter are 
>fleeting and disappear in hourly averages.   Such occurrences are also masked 
>to 
>a small extent by 1-minute averages.
> 
>Kent Osterberg
>Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
>
>
>
>David Brearley wrote: 
>
>This reminds me of a scholarly article I came across about a year ago while 
>doing some research. Here’s a link to it if anyone is interested:
>>
>>www.lepten.ufsc.br/publicacoes/solar/eventos/2005/PSC/burger_ruther.pdf 
>>
>>David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor
>>SolarPro magazine 
>>NABCEP Certified PV Installer ™
>>david.brear...@solarprofessional.com
>>Direct: 541.261.6545
>>
>>On 1/19/11 12:29 PM, "Bill Brooks"  wrote:
>>
>>
>>Kent,
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>>How often were your data records? To capture edge of cloud effects, you need 
>>one-second data. Not many people gather that fast or that much data on 
>>inverters. I don’t think there is that much energy in these spikes, but they 
>>are 
>>real and make some difference. 15-minute average data will completely wash 
>>out 
>>this data.
>>
>> 
>>
>>This is also a deficiency in modeling software since most models are using 
>>hourly data.
>>
>> 
>>
>>Bill.
>>
>> 
>>
>>From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
>>[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kent Osterberg
>>
>>
>>
>>Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2011 1:18 PM
>>
>>To: Wrenches; Marco Mangelsdorf
>>
>>Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter oversizing
>>
>>Attached is a graph that I produced to document the effect of various ratios 
>>between the PV array size and the inverter size.  I extracted output power 
>>data 
>>for a 1020-watt system located in NE Oregon that is on the Sunny Portal 
>>> > . The data are publicly accessible so feel free to run your own analysis.  
>>Better yet, analyze the data for a system near you.  
>>
>>
>>
>>Using 2009 data, I looked at how much energy would have been lost if the 
>>output 
>>was clipped at 800W, 810W,  1020W.  I used 2009 data because there was a 
>>period in 2010 when the Sunny Webbox didn't have internet access.  At 800 
>>watts, 
>>power clipping would have happened on about 25% of the days.  Yet the energy 
>>that would have been lost was only 0.38% of the annual total.  
>>
>>
>>
>>The results shown on this graph aren't universal, results would be a little 
>>different in 2010, it would be different in some other climate, it would have 
>>been different at another elevation, it would be different with a different 
>>array angle, ..., and the module tolerance and inverter efficiency also 
>>effect 
>>the results.  Modules in this system are Suntech 170-watt +/-3%.  The 
>>inverter 
>>is Sunnyboy 1800 that  should be operating at close to 93% efficiency.
>>
>>
>>Kent Osterberg
>>
>>Blue Mountain Solar. Inc.
>>
>>
>>
>>___ List sponsored by Home Power 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] EnPhase male whips

[Chad Waits]

We cut the extensions all the time to jump from deck to deck. You used to
have to have the proper pin out schematic to pair the proper wires but now
they're labeled L1,L2,L3, and then a green yellow wire for neutral. Just cap
the L3 if you're not using it for 3 phase.

 

Best, 

 

Chad Waits

Net Zero Solar

520.270.4873

chadwa...@netzerosolar.net

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Eric Thomas
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 12:06 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] EnPhase male whips

 

I know its a funny title butwhy doesn't EnPhase make whips with male
connectors? We are having trouble laying out a system with multiple sub
arrays. We need to cable to sub arrays that are on different roof planes in
order to make up our circuits. From 5 micros on roof one, into attic, out of
SolaDeck on roof two, grab 3 more micros, back into SolaDeck, into attic for
home run. The whip from the SolDeck to the last 3 micros needs to be male...
any suggestions? EnPhase does not want us to cut an extension that has
connectors on both ends...

Thanks, 
Eric Thomas 
Solar Epiphany
Seattle

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[RE-wrenches] EnPhase male whips

[Eric Thomas]

I know its a funny title butwhy doesn't EnPhase make whips with male
connectors? We are having trouble laying out a system with multiple sub
arrays. We need to cable to sub arrays that are on different roof planes in
order to make up our circuits. From 5 micros on roof one, into attic, out of
SolaDeck on roof two, grab 3 more micros, back into SolaDeck, into attic for
home run. The whip from the SolDeck to the last 3 micros needs to be male...
any suggestions? EnPhase does not want us to cut an extension that has
connectors on both ends...

Thanks,
Eric Thomas
Solar Epiphany
Seattle
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter oversizing

[Nick Soleil]

This is very interesting.  I think a lot of us already oversize inverters 
to 
reduce wear and tear, and to operate the inverter closer to its peak 
efficiency.  This is another good reason.
 What will it take to get more data on this subject.  What percentage of 
the 
annual radiation is occuring over 1000 w/m^2 in our local regions?  Who is 
collecting 1 minute data?
If we could capture .5% of the annual power on a 5 KW AC system, and the 
system cost $42,000.  That would be valued about $210 upfront, but even more 
over the life of the system.  That increased value would just pay for the 
increased cost of the inverter.  It is probably a smart decision, as long as 
the 
increased inverter size doesn't increase the system cost significantly, by 
requiring a supply side tap, a service panel upgrade, or other major upgrades 
to 
the system..

 Nick Soleil
Project Manager
Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
PO Box 657
Petaluma, CA 94953
Cell:   707-321-2937
Office: 707-789-9537
Fax:707-769-9037





From: Bill Brooks 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Wed, January 19, 2011 4:33:00 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter oversizing


David,
 
Good question, but difficult to answer. The basic rule in electronics is that 
every 10C hotter that we run something continuously, the overall life is cut in 
half. Conversely, if we run inverters cooler, they should last longer. The 
difficult question is how much to oversize the inverter to get a 10C 
temperature 
drop continuously. Not easy to answer. Also, heat is not the only killer of an 
inverter. Line surges and lightning surges are probably bigger inverter 
killers. 
And then there is engineering design. More inverters have died prematurely for 
design and quality control reasons than any other failure type.
 
The final answer is 42.
 
Bill.
 
From:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dave Palumbo
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 3:55 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter oversizing
 
Bill,
 
In addition to power production losses due to arrays that are oversized for the 
inverter (although within manufacturers specs) how concerned should we be with 
shorter inverter service life because the inverter is working at its maximum?
 
David Palumbo
Independent Power LLC 
462 Solar Way Drive
Hyde Park, VT 05655
www.independentpowerllc.com 
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
Vermont Solar Partner
23 Years Experience, (802) 888-7194 
 
 
 
From:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brooks
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 6:20 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter oversizing
 
Kent,
 
The article that David Brearley cited is a very good discussion on this 
subject. 
It clearly shows the under-prediction of losses due to hitting the inverter 
peak 
power capability when using longer-term data. This study was done by the 
Fraunhofer Institute in southern Germany. They get a lot more clouds there so 
the results might be comparable to some of the more cloudy regions of the 
United 
States. I would expect the results to be worse in much of the U.S. that gets 
clouds and higher irradiation than Freiburg. However, the results will 
definitely be less for much of California since clouds don’t happen for 
sections 
of the year. 

 
It all matters where you are.
 
Great discussion.
 
Bill.
 
From:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kent Osterberg
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 1:41 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter oversizing
 
Bill,

The data are 15 minute averages so I'm sure that some edge of cloud events are 
washed out in the average. The energy they contributed was in the total 
measurement, but wouldn't have been included in my sum of clipped output.  
Observing the data, you can see some edge of cloud effects despite the 15 
minute 
averaging. And on many days I suspect there is edge of cloud effect that 
wouldn't have hit the clipping limit too.  Obviously, missing some short 
interval events biases the results a little but probably not by very much.  For 
the sake of argument assume that there was a 3 minute, spike in output 
100-watts 
above my threshold setting.  In the 15-minute average that still would have 
been 
a 20-watt bump and with 10-watt data resolution, it probably would have showed 
up, but say it didn't show up or that it end up just below the threshold.  Say 
this happened once  every week, not likely, but if it did the missed data would 
amount to 0.25 kWhr or about 5% as much as the total observed with the data 
clipped at 800 watts.  So you have to really stretch the brief edge of cloud 
argument to integrate enough energy to throw my graph off by very much.

Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.



Bill Brooks wrote: 
Kent,
 
How often

Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter oversizing

[David Brearley]

Kent, 

The graphs aren¹t mislabeled. The one-minute average data has more
granularity, which shows up at the upper limits of the data. It reveals more
peaks over 1,000 W/m2, even in excess of 1,200 W/m2. These values get
compressed into the lower bins in the hourly data.

The results from the Florianopolis site in Brazil, gives a pretty good idea
of how significantly different the results can be based on monitoring
frequency:

³Considerable differences emerge when looking at the high end of the
radiation level
Distribution, which shows for the one-minute averages that some 9% of the
daytime 
hours present radiation levels „ 1000W/m2, with a corresponding energy
content of
some 23%; hourly averages for the same range correspond to around 6% of
daytime 
hours, and below 11% of the total energy content. Radiation levels above
900W/m2 
occur some 16% of the time when looking at one-minute averages, and below
13% 
of daytime hours when using hourly averages, with corresponding energy
fractions 
respectively above 38% and 25%.²

>From the conclusion:

³we have demonstrated that the estimation of the actual losses due to
inverter
undersizing increases with increased time resolution of the radiation
measurements, 
revealing that hourly averages hide important irradiation peaks. In fact,
results with 
hourly averages are an experimental artifact, and lead to an estimation of
the solar 
energy resource distribution that does not correspond to reality. Hourly
averages of
irradiation values lead to inverter undersizing and the associated energy
losses.²

Figures 8 & 9 are interesting. You could imagine what these results would
look like if overlaid onto your charts.

Best, david

On 1/19/11 8:14 PM, "Kent Osterberg"  wrote:

> David,
> 
> Thanks for sharing that paper.  The labeling the graphs for the 10-second and
> 1-minute data in Freiburg appears to be reversed - the one minute averaging
> seems to have more data in all of the bins above 1000 W/sq m.  Basically,
> these graphs show that irradiance observations above 1100 watts per square
> meter are fleeting and disappear in hourly averages.   Such occurrences are
> also masked to a small extent by 1-minute averages.
>  
> Kent Osterberg
> Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
> 
> 
> 
> David Brearley wrote:
>>  Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter oversizing This reminds me of a scholarly article
>> I came across about a year ago while doing some research. Here¹s a link to it
>> if anyone is interested:
>>  
>> www.lepten.ufsc.br/publicacoes/solar/eventos/2005/PSC/burger_ruther.pdf
>> > df> 
>>  
>> David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor
>>  SolarPro magazine
>> NABCEP Certified PV Installer 
>>  david.brear...@solarprofessional.com
>> Direct: 541.261.6545
>>  
>> On 1/19/11 12:29 PM, "Bill Brooks"  wrote:
>>  
>>   
>>> Kent,
>>>  
>>> How often were your data records? To capture edge of cloud effects, you need
>>> one-second data. Not many people gather that fast or that much data on
>>> inverters. I don¹t think there is that much energy in these spikes, but they
>>> are real and make some difference. 15-minute average data will completely
>>> wash out this data.
>>>  
>>> This is also a deficiency in modeling software since most models are using
>>> hourly data.
>>>  
>>> Bill.
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kent
>>> Osterberg
>>>  Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2011 1:18 PM
>>>  To: Wrenches; Marco Mangelsdorf
>>>  Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter oversizing
>>>   
>>>  
>>> Attached is a graph that I produced to document the effect of various ratios
>>> between the PV array size and the inverter size.  I extracted output power
>>> data for a 1020-watt system located in NE Oregon that is on the Sunny Portal
>>> >> a347-48fb-b8d1-92e5f9b78ab3&plant=608681a7-ef60-4edb-84ff-07110db0ab6a&splan
>>> g=en-US> . The data are publicly accessible so feel free to run your own
>>> analysis.  Better yet, analyze the data for a system near you.
>>>  
>>> Using 2009 data, I looked at how much energy would have been lost if the
>>> output was clipped at 800W, 810W,  1020W.  I used 2009 data because
>>> there was a period in 2010 when the Sunny Webbox didn't have internet
>>> access.  At 800 watts, power clipping would have happened on about 25% of
>>> the days.  Yet the energy that would have been lost was only 0.38% of the
>>> annual total.  
>>>  
>>> The results shown on this graph aren't universal, results would be a little
>>> different in 2010, it would be different in some other climate, it would
>>> have been different at another elevation, it would be different with a
>>> different array angle, ..., and the module tolerance and inverter efficiency
>>> also effect the results.  Modules in this system are Suntech 170-watt +/-3%.
>>>

Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter oversizing

[Drake]

On a couple of Enphase systems I monitor 
regularly, the modules are oversized compared to 
the inverters.  One system has Sharp 224 W 
modules and M-190s (capable of producing 199 
W).  The array is a ground mount at a 30 degree tilt at 39+ degrees latitude.


When the system was new in the autumn, I noticed 
two days of some clipping.  Since then, none.  In 
the summer, when the sun angle is better, the 
heat will keep the wattage down so clipping will 
very seldom occur.  The modules will not be close 
to STC, so the inverters should not be pushed to their maximum.


The same is true of string inverters.  Since real 
power of the modules in generally significantly 
below the nameplate, inverters will generally not 
run at maximum power.   When we take in all the 
factors affecting the actual array power, I think 
that 120% over sizing from nameplate wattage is generally safe.


Drake


At 09:14 PM 1/19/2011, you wrote:

David,

Thanks for sharing that paper.  The labeling the 
graphs for the 10-second and 1-minute data in 
Freiburg appears to be reversed - the one minute 
averaging seems to have more data in all of the 
bins above 1000 W/sq m.  Basically, these graphs 
show that irradiance observations above 1100 
watts per square meter are fleeting and 
disappear in hourly averages.   Such occurrences 
are also masked to a small extent by 1-minute averages.


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.



David Brearley wrote:
This reminds me of a scholarly article I came 
across about a year ago while doing some 
research. Here’s a link to it if anyone is interested:


www.lepten.ufsc.br/publicacoes/solar/eventos/2005/PSC/burger_ruther.pdf

David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor
SolarPro magazine
NABCEP Certified PV Installer ™
david.brear...@solarprofessional.com
Direct: 541.261.6545

On 1/19/11 12:29 PM, "Bill Brooks" 
 wrote:


Kent,

How often were your data records? To capture 
edge of cloud effects, you need one-second 
data. Not many people gather that fast or that 
much data on inverters. I don’t think there is 
that much energy in these spikes, but they are 
real and make some difference. 15-minute 
average data will completely wash out this data.


This is also a deficiency in modeling software 
since most models are using hourly data.


Bill.


From: 
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kent Osterberg

Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2011 1:18 PM
To: Wrenches; Marco Mangelsdorf
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Inverter oversizing


Attached is a graph that I produced to document 
the effect of various ratios between the PV 
array size and the inverter size.  I extracted 
output power data for a 1020-watt system 
located in NE Oregon that is on the Sunny 
Portal 
<http://www.sunnyportal.com/Templates/PublicPageOverview.aspx?page=85820a73-a347-48fb-b8d1-92e5f9b78ab3&plant=608681a7-ef60-4edb-84ff-07110db0ab6a&splang=en-US> 
. The data are publicly accessible so feel free 
to run your own analysis.  Better yet, analyze 
the data for a system near you.


Using 2009 data, I looked at how much energy 
would have been lost if the output was clipped 
at 800W, 810W,  1020W.  I used 2009 data 
because there was a period in 2010 when the 
Sunny Webbox didn't have internet access.  At 
800 watts, power clipping would have happened 
on about 25% of the days.  Yet the energy that 
would have been lost was only 0.38% of the annual total.


The results shown on this graph aren't 
universal, results would be a little different 
in 2010, it would be different in some other 
climate, it would have been different at 
another elevation, it would be different with a 
different array angle, ..., and the module 
tolerance and inverter efficiency also effect 
the results.  Modules in this system are 
Suntech 170-watt +/-3%.  The inverter is 
Sunnyboy 1800 that  should be operating at close to 93% efficiency.


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar. Inc.





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