[RE-wrenches] Wrench needed

[bob ellison]

I have a supplier looking for a "Wrench" in the Hammonton, NJ. area for a
grid connect system.

If someone on the list is in that area please reply off list and I will pass
the info on to him.

 

Thanks,

Bob Ellison

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Re: [RE-wrenches] power factor

[toddcory]

excellent replies to yes, a complicated issue. i think i finally understand 
this. thank you kent and dan!
 
todd
 
 
 
On Monday, May 7, 2012 9:02pm, "Exeltech"  said:




Hello Todd,

The short answer to your "is this a concern?" query, is "no".

Reactive power is one of the more complex aspects of electric power, and
certainly one of the most misunderstood.  It can and does involve inductive
loads (e.g. motors), capacitive loads (e.g. some types of power supplies),
and non-linear loads (e.g. switch-mode power supplies, dimmers, etc.).

You likely know (or should know) "power factor" is the ratio of real power to
reactive power consumed by a load.  Grid-tie inverters generate "real" watts,
which are then coupled to the grid.  When a reactive load in your home is
consuming power, and you provide real watts to the load from the inverter,
this changes the ratio of real to apparent power consumed by the load as
seen by the utility company.

Dividing real power by  apparent power results in a unit-less value between 0
and 1 that describes this ratio.

Let's say a load in your home is consuming 1,200 real watts, and 1,250
apparent watts.  This results in a power factor of 1200/1250, which equals
0.96.  Pretty darn good.

Next, your grid-tie inverter provides 1,000 real watts back to the utility 
company,
which in turn is 1,000 real watts that the utility company no longer needs to
provide to the load described above.  Thus the net "real" power consumed as
seen by the utility is now 1,200W - 1,000W = 200W.

This means they sell only 200 watts to power your load, but the "apparent"
power aspect is still there.

End result?

200 real watts / 1250 apparent watts yields a power factor of 0.160.  Terrible 
by
any power company standards, yet you've removed 1,000 watts from the grid.
This is the value that will be displayed on your  meter.

Efforts are underway by EPRI and others to help create standards for future
generations of grid-tied inverters capable of generating "reactive" power (where
volts and amps are out of phase with each other) to help mitigate this effect.
I'm a member of the committee working toward that goal.  (No, we're not there
yet. It'll take time.)

This is a very difficult topic to discuss and explain.  Hopefully this helped.

Like Tom Cruise said at the end of "Top Gun" .. "It's complicated."


Dan



--- On Mon, 5/7/12, toddc...@finestplanet.com  wrote:

From: toddc...@finestplanet.com 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] power factor
To: "RE-wrenches" 
Date: Monday, May 7, 2012,  9:46 PM





wrenches,
i have a question about my home's system. i was one of the first net metered 
systems in our area, so the utility company installed a fancy dual register 
meter which also displays kvar/power factor.
when selling 1 kW today the power factor was .40 and the kvar was 2.37.
this sounds horrible. question: is this a concern?
todd




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Re: [RE-wrenches] power factor

[Exeltech]

Hello Todd,

The short answer to your "is this a concern?" query, is "no".

Reactive power is one of the more complex aspects of electric power, and
certainly one of the most misunderstood.  It can and does involve inductive
loads (e.g. motors), capacitive loads (e.g. some types of power supplies),
and non-linear loads (e.g. switch-mode power supplies, dimmers, etc.).

You likely know (or should know) "power factor" is the ratio of real power to
reactive power consumed by a load.  Grid-tie inverters generate "real" watts,
which are then coupled to the grid.  When a reactive load in your home is
consuming power, and you provide real watts to the load from the inverter,
this changes the ratio of real to apparent power consumed by the load as
seen by the utility company.

Dividing real power by apparent power results in a unit-less value between 0
and 1 that describes this ratio.

Let's say a load in your home is consuming 1,200 real watts, and 1,250
apparent watts.  This results in a power factor of 1200/1250, which equals
0.96.  Pretty darn good.

Next, your grid-tie inverter provides 1,000 real watts back to the utility 
company,
which in turn is 1,000 real watts that the utility company no longer needs to
provide to the load described above.  Thus the net "real" power consumed as
seen by the utility is now 1,200W - 1,000W = 200W.

This means they sell only 200 watts to power your load, but the "apparent"
power aspect is still there.

End result?

200 real watts / 1250 apparent watts yields a power factor of 0.160.  Terrible 
by
any power company standards, yet you've removed 1,000 watts from the grid.
This is the value that will be displayed on your meter.

Efforts are underway by EPRI and others to help create standards for future
generations of grid-tied inverters capable of generating "reactive" power (where
volts and amps are out of phase with each other) to help mitigate this effect.
I'm a member of the committee working toward that goal.  (No, we're not there
yet. It'll take time.)

This is a very difficult topic to discuss and explain.  Hopefully this helped.

Like Tom Cruise said at the end of "Top Gun" .. "It's complicated."


Dan



--- On Mon, 5/7/12, toddc...@finestplanet.com  wrote:

From: toddc...@finestplanet.com 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] power factor
To: "RE-wrenches" 
Date: Monday, May 7, 2012, 9:46 PM




wrenches,


i have a question about my home's system. i was one of the first net metered 
systems in our area, so the utility company installed a fancy dual register 
meter which also displays kvar/power factor.


when selling 1 kW today the power factor was .40 and the kvar was 2.37.


this sounds horrible. question: is this a concern?


todd









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Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-Grid Generac EcoGen 6 kW

[Allan Sindelar]

  
  
Jeff,
I have had one at my off grid home for a little over a year now. I
just went out to check: 85.3 hours on this unit, so no chance to
wear anything out yet.

The unit has performed very well. I had two issues come up, both
quite minor: at first the cold starting was slow; a slight bend with
a needle-nose pliers on a choke linkage resolved that (it was a
service call, covered under warranty). Also, the spin-on oil filter
was just loose enough to leak some oil. The unit has a large oil
reservoir external to the engine, so this was noticed early and of
little consequence.

I have it set to operate on manual remote start, with a simple
toggle switch next to my inverter. It's simple two-wire start and
required nothing but a signal cable to the switch. (I had an extra
signal pair previously installed, which I use to monitor the voltage
of the starting battery via the secondary voltage function on the
TriMetric TM2025 - very slick.)

It is set up to use 120V AC to run an onboard battery charger, which
I consider a design weakness, as few existing installations have
nearby AC power available. The AC is a continuous 8 watt draw.
However, Generac has told me that they have no warranty issue with
keeping the starting battery charged with a PV panel and small
regulator. As I had AC power at the generator connection point,
during winter I turned on the circuit every few days; I'll
eventually add an old 40W module instead, just haven't gotten a
round tuit yet.

The standard AC output is 120V, with an optional kit available to
output 120/240. Mine charges my 120V Magnum MS4024 at full 114A
(it's rated 105A) charging output, while simultaneously running a
1250W electric heating element that heats the WVO (waste vegetable
oil) that I then filter to store and run in my diesel Mercedes. Note
that I live at 6700', so elevation output drops the 6kW rated output
of the unit by 23+% I believe that when I'm doing this I'm running
at slightly over 100% of derated output. The engine can pull this
for hours with no signs of strain.

I have been very well aware of Generac's past reputation on this
list, but I have cautiously stuck my neck out, and am doing so
again, to say that I think this is a solid unit. Nobody else is
making a unit any more that's specifically designed for the runtime
and load demands of off grid applications, as all of the major
manufacturers are focused on residential standby markets. I have
recommended it several times for installations that we've done. We
don't sell it, preferring to let a generator specialist handle
service and support after the sale. So far no complaints have
filtered back. 

I would encourage you to take this one model off of your "stay away
from" list.
Allan


  
  
  Allan Sindelar
  al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic
  Installer
  NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
  New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
  Founder and Chief Technology Officer
  Positive Energy, Inc.
  3209 Richards Lane (note new address)
  Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
  505 424-1112
  www.positiveenergysolar.com
  
  
  
   

On 5/7/2012 12:55 PM, Jeff Yago wrote:

  I have not been a fan of any Generac brand generators, especially their
low-cost, highly marketed residential stand-by generators.  Although things
may have changed, these were very hard to use with a typical inverter's
2-wire remote start relay, most warranties were voided if used in off-grid
applications, and their high speed engines just did not last as long as
lower speed engines.

Last year Generac came out with their smaller EcoGen 6 kW propane-fueled
model that they claim was specifically designed for off-grid applications.
As I understand it, this is a vertical shaft engine operating at 2600 RPM
and belt-drives the generator section.  The info also claims a simple 2-wire
start/stop (like Kohler) which would be a major improvement, and the output
can be 100% at 120 VAC which would be a great match to a smaller single
120VAC inverter off-grid solar system.

However, anyone have any actual experience with this model?  Does it
actually hold up to off-grid type longer operating hours?  Warranty claim
issues?  

Do electronics require lots of standby power or a separate source to keep
from discharging starter battery? (This was a complaint I had with Kohler's
model changes which sucked down power in standby mode due to the added
electronic monitoring panel not on earlier models.)

Any maintenance issues with belt drive?  Do I finally take Generac off my
"stay away from" list?

Thanks,

Jeff Yago
DTI Solar Inc.


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Silicon Energy install steps?

[Jesse Dahl]

So far to me it seems like another thing is that an install has to go from 
column to column and all the "trays" or "shoes" have to remain very loose until 
after their column has had the modules installed.

Thanks,

Jesse

Sent from my iPad!!!

On May 5, 2012, at 9:37 PM, Alex Cozine  wrote:

> Darryl,
> 
> What type of alignment blocks?  Solid off centered blocks?  or "C" shaped 'L' 
> feet like these Sundmodo products? 
> 
> Ditto Darryl's comments, The measurements are much more critical for the 
> trays than most other standard modules.
> 
> On Sat, May 5, 2012 at 7:07 PM, Darryl Thayer  wrote:
> I made a few alignment blocks that allow a 1" circle on the lag bolt centers 
> to allow for the critical alignment of trays.  However they cost $7 each to 
> be made in a CNC shop.  If there were a call for these it could be extruded. 
> and maybe $2 each.But I agree the SiE is a solid module
> 
> From: Alex Cozine 
> To: RE-wrenches  
> Sent: Friday, May 4, 2012 4:55 PM
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Silicon Energy install steps?
> 
> Sunmodo in Vancouver WA makes a nice flashing with a 'C' foot that gives room 
> for trusses that aren't exactly 4' on center.  Here's my salesman's email if 
> you want to see this foot, it isn't on the website at the moment.  
> gwin...@sunmodo.com
> 
> I agree with bclark.  You have to snap lines and measure corner to corner to 
> get yourself as close as possible to perfect square so you give yourself the 
> best chance in getting the modules to slide up easily.   Advice: measure 
> between "trays" or "slide channel" before bringing each module to the roof.   
> Ditto bclark to start with first column and work to next column.
> East/West third party rails are often the solution to give a little play in 
> the installation.
> 
> That being said you must have your rubber mallet available for these 
> installations.
> 
> Good Luck, Silicon Energy is a great, robust product and worth any 
> difficulties that may come with the installation.
> 
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> -- 
> Alex Cozine
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
> Journeyman Electrician
> 
> Brothers Electric Solar
> brotherselectricsolar.com
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[RE-wrenches] power factor

[toddcory]

wrenches,
i have a question about my home's system. i was one of the first net metered 
systems in our area, so the utility company installed a fancy dual register 
meter which also displays kvar/power factor.
when selling 1 kW today the power factor was .40 and the kvar was 2.37.
this sounds horrible. question: is this a concern?
todd




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Nickel-Iron Batteries

[bob ellison]

Dan,
You are correct, they can get to too high a voltage now. The comment applied
to the olden days before MPPT controllers.
Now they can get too high a voltage because we are running panels at much
higher voltages than we did 15 or so years ago.
Thanks for the correction; I didn't think about the MPPT controllers that
exist now.

Later,
Bob Ellison

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Exeltech
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2012 11:19 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Nickel-Iron Batteries

Bob is correct in his warning about the Chinese Ni-Fe cells.  As I recall,
they had a translucent white case, but there may have been others .. and as
Bob mentioned, they did indeed have a very high failure rate.

Thanks Bob for remembering this.

Mine are (and were) Edison cells, and were imprinted with the word "Edison"
on the caps and the cell cases.

A quick word of advice ...

You *can* get the charge voltage (and subsequently current) too high in the
sense the cells out-gas hydrogen and oxygen just like lead-acid, and will do
so vigorously when fully charged.  The plates won't warp due to heat as will
lead-acid, but the risk of of an H2 explosion is still very real.  This also
causes the electrolyte to be deposited all over the tops of the cells and
elsewhere.  It's oily and difficult to clean up.


Dan


--- On Mon, 5/7/12, bob ellison  wrote:

> From: bob ellison 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Nickel-Iron Batteries
> To: "'RE-wrenches'" 
> Date: Monday, May 7, 2012, 4:38 AM
> 
> The bigger warning is with the "Chinese" NiFe cells.
> 
> There was a company importing them 15-20 years or so ago.
> The failure rate was very high and the factory support was almost 
> nonexistent. Unless you're a tinkerer, they are great cells to stay 
> away from!
> 
> I know people who use the original Edison cells in power systems and 
> have seen people just using them as a DC source.
> Don't worry, you can't get the voltage too high when charging them. 
> They just take it. They don't freeze and if I remember correctly, temp 
> does not alter the output either. There are plenty of the original 
> Edison Cells still out there.
> 
> Later,
> Bob Ellison

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar World 2.0 frames

[Nick Soleil]

Hello wrenches,

The Heyco SunBundler stainless steel ties provide a long lasting solution
for managing wiring under arrays.  The Sunbundlers are particularly
convenient for fastening Enphase Engage cabling underneath an array.  I
have included a link to the Heyco SunBundler webpage below.  There are a
number of other solution that work for specific racking systems, including
the Enphase ET-Clip.

Sunbundler-Cable-Ties

On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 11:22 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote:

> This was an Enphase M215 system on Unirac Solarmount rails and we used
> WireClips from PVRacking.us. These work great for the Enphase trunk cable
> and for DC conductors. I do agree that there are some wire management
> difficulties.
>
>
> http://www.pvracking.net/products/Accessories/WireClips-0-25-each-Sold-in-qty-of-300-WireClip-A300.html
>
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Fafco Solar
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 9:30 AM, Drake <
> drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org> wrote:
>
>>  What wire restraint methods are you using?  We are looking at possibly
>> using these modules with a Unirac ULA system.
>>
>> At 09:24 AM 5/7/2012, you wrote:
>>
>> The 2.0 frames are very sturdy, but they are a bit hard to hold/carry
>> with the rounded edge. We put 164 of them on the Naples Botanical Garden
>> and it worked out great.
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> Fafco Solar
>>
>>
>> On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 9:01 PM, Dave Palumbo 
>> wrote:
>>
>> All,
>>
>>
>>
>> We are considering using Solar World 2.0 framed modules. Not having put
>> hands on these yet, we are looking for testimonials and opinions on these
>> “top mount only” modules.
>>
>> And while we’re at, it what about Solar World’s 2.5’s with the bottom
>> mount flange?
>>
>>
>>
>> David Palumbo
>>
>> Independent Power LLC
>>
>> 462 Solar Way Drive
>>
>> Hyde Park, VT 05655
>>
>>  www.independentpowerllc.com
>>
>> NABCEP Certified PV Installer
>>
>> Vermont Solar Partner
>>
>> 24 Years Experience, (802) 888-7194 <%28802%29%20888-7194>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> **
>>
>> ** Drake Chamberlin****
>> ATHENS ELECTRIC LLC
>> OH License 44810****
>> CO license 3773
>> NABCEP Certified PV
>>
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-- 

Cordially,

*Nick Soleil*

*Field Applications Engineer
*

*Enphase Energy*

Mobile: (707) 321-2937
**


201 1st St., Suite 300

Petaluma, CA 94952

www.enphase.com 

P: (707) 763-4784 x7267

F: (707) 763-0784

E: nsol...@enphaseenergy.com

[image: nabcep logo] Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300

“Don’t get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It’s just that I prefer fusion
to fission. And it just so happens that there’s an enormous fusion reactor
safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could
ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it’s wireless! .”

- William McDonough



This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may 
contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not an intended 
recipient, you may not review, use, copy, disclose or distr

Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-Grid Generac EcoGen 6 kW

[Jason Szumlanski]

I can't answer your questions directly, but for the record, if you need
help with the two wire start issue, call Generac and ask for Bob Cramer. He
will send you a conversion kit and instructions for residential propane
standby generators. If you want his  email address, contact me off list.

Jason Szumlanski
Fafco Solar



On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 2:55 PM, Jeff Yago  wrote:

> I have not been a fan of any Generac brand generators, especially their
> low-cost, highly marketed residential stand-by generators.  Although things
> may have changed, these were very hard to use with a typical inverter's
> 2-wire remote start relay, most warranties were voided if used in off-grid
> applications, and their high speed engines just did not last as long as
> lower speed engines.
>
> Last year Generac came out with their smaller EcoGen 6 kW propane-fueled
> model that they claim was specifically designed for off-grid applications.
> As I understand it, this is a vertical shaft engine operating at 2600 RPM
> and belt-drives the generator section.  The info also claims a simple
> 2-wire
> start/stop (like Kohler) which would be a major improvement, and the output
> can be 100% at 120 VAC which would be a great match to a smaller single
> 120VAC inverter off-grid solar system.
>
> However, anyone have any actual experience with this model?  Does it
> actually hold up to off-grid type longer operating hours?  Warranty claim
> issues?
>
> Do electronics require lots of standby power or a separate source to keep
> from discharging starter battery? (This was a complaint I had with Kohler's
> model changes which sucked down power in standby mode due to the added
> electronic monitoring panel not on earlier models.)
>
> Any maintenance issues with belt drive?  Do I finally take Generac off my
> "stay away from" list?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jeff Yago
> DTI Solar Inc.
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-Grid Generac EcoGen 6 kW

[Jeff Yago]

I have not been a fan of any Generac brand generators, especially their
low-cost, highly marketed residential stand-by generators.  Although things
may have changed, these were very hard to use with a typical inverter's
2-wire remote start relay, most warranties were voided if used in off-grid
applications, and their high speed engines just did not last as long as
lower speed engines.

Last year Generac came out with their smaller EcoGen 6 kW propane-fueled
model that they claim was specifically designed for off-grid applications.
As I understand it, this is a vertical shaft engine operating at 2600 RPM
and belt-drives the generator section.  The info also claims a simple 2-wire
start/stop (like Kohler) which would be a major improvement, and the output
can be 100% at 120 VAC which would be a great match to a smaller single
120VAC inverter off-grid solar system.

However, anyone have any actual experience with this model?  Does it
actually hold up to off-grid type longer operating hours?  Warranty claim
issues?  

Do electronics require lots of standby power or a separate source to keep
from discharging starter battery? (This was a complaint I had with Kohler's
model changes which sucked down power in standby mode due to the added
electronic monitoring panel not on earlier models.)

Any maintenance issues with belt drive?  Do I finally take Generac off my
"stay away from" list?

Thanks,

Jeff Yago
DTI Solar Inc.


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Re: [RE-wrenches] 120% Rule - applying to multiple load centers etc

[Andrew Truitt]

August / Eric - My understanding of this requirement is that all equipment
in the circuit must be rated to handle the maximum fault current that could
flow at a given point.  So, if your power source / overcurrent protection
scheme is: 50A (inverter 1) + 50A (inverter 2) + 100A (utility grid via
fused disconnect) then 200A is the max fault current at any point in that
circuit (including conductors and switches) and should be used in your 120%
rule calculation (as J.W. does).  This can definitely present issues,
especially when attempting to interconnect at existing subpanels with
feeders that were not sized with the future addition of PV in mind, but I
think one intent of this article is to ensure that if there were a fault in
those feeders, and the PV inverters continued to operate (unlikely), that
the conductor could handle the sum of the fault currents (PV + utility).


For a brighter energy future,


Andrew Truitt
NABCEP Certified PV Installer™ (ID# 032407-66)

Principal
Truitt Renewable Energy Consulting

(202) 486-7507

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/andrew-truitt/8/622/713


"Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion
to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor
safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could
ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!"

~William McDonough



On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 10:55 AM, August Goers  wrote:

> Hi Wrenches,
>
>
>
> Please see question below forwarded from one of my fellow engineers.
> Thanks, August
>
>
>
> *From:* Eric Schoonbaert [mailto:e...@luminalt.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, May 07, 2012 9:38 AM
> *To:* August Goers
> *Subject:* 120% Rule
>
>
>
> The 120% rule, and how it is applied to panel board bus size has been
> widely discussed. There is one part of the rule (2008 and 2011 NEC quoted
> below) that gets much less attention and is the subject of this email. That
> is, how and when is the rule applied to a conductor? The heading and text
> both clearly say bus or *conductor *rating [emphasis added].
>
> * *
>
> *2011 NEC 705.12 Point of Connection* *(D)* *(2)* *Bus or Conductor
> Rating.* The sum of the ampere ratings of overcurrent devices in circuits
> supplying power to a busbar or conductor shall not exceed 120 percent of
> the rating of the busbar or conductor.
>
>
>
> *2008 690.64 Point of Connection (B) (2)* *Bus or Conductor Rating.* The
> sum of the ampere ratings of overcurrent devices in circuits supplying
> power to a busbar or conductor shall not exceed 120 percent of the rating
> of the busbar or conductor. In systems with panelboards connected in
> series, the rating of the first overcurrent device directly connected to
> the output of a utility-interactive inverter(s) shall be used in the
> calculations for all busbars and conductors
>
>
>
> In Homepower 140 (December 2010 & January 2011), John Wiles has several
> examples of the application of the 120% rule in his code corner article. I
> have included one below.
>
>
>
> For example: Two inverters each require a 50 A backfed breaker in a main
> lug inverter combining load center to meet 690.8 requirements. A
> supply-side connection is going to be made with a 100 A fused disconnect.
> The rating of the combining load center and the ampacity of the
> conductor to the 100 A fused disconnect must follow the
> 690.64(B)(2) requirements. As noted, even with a supply-side connection, as
> soon as the circuit passes through the service
> entrance disconnect/overcurrent device, all load-side requirements apply,
> because the PC circuit is now on the load side of the service disconnect.
>
> (50 A + 50 A +100 A) ÷ 1.2 = 200 A ÷ 1.2 = 166.7 A
>
>
>
> The numbers indicate that a 200 A inverter load center/panel would be
> needed because there is no 175 A option available. Assuming a 75°C rated
> conductor, a 2/0 AWG conductor should be used between that panel and the
> 100 A fused disconnect
>
>
>
> My particular question concerns the application of this rule to the
> ampacity of the conductor. This is the only example I have come across
> where the rule is applied to a conductor in this way. Is it the intention
> of the code language to size the conductor between a main lug sub panel
> used to combine solar circuits and the OCPD for the panel using the 120%
> rule? Or is the inclusion of the word *conductor* to ensure that load
> centers that have conductors integral to them are covered?
>
>
>
> What about other equipment between along the conductor such as a utility
> of fire department disconnect? In the John Wiles example above, if an
> utility disconnect was to be located along the conductor, would 200 A rated
> disconnect be necessary?
>
>
>
> Applying this rule to the conductor does not seem to follow the same logic
> (at least as I understand it) as a panel board bus bar which has spots for
> additional circuits between the OCPD's supplying power to it while a
> conductor is typically does no

Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar World 2.0 frames

[Jason Szumlanski]

This was an Enphase M215 system on Unirac Solarmount rails and we used
WireClips from PVRacking.us. These work great for the Enphase trunk cable
and for DC conductors. I do agree that there are some wire management
difficulties.

http://www.pvracking.net/products/Accessories/WireClips-0-25-each-Sold-in-qty-of-300-WireClip-A300.html


Jason Szumlanski
Fafco Solar




On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 9:30 AM, Drake
wrote:

>  What wire restraint methods are you using?  We are looking at possibly
> using these modules with a Unirac ULA system.
>
> At 09:24 AM 5/7/2012, you wrote:
>
> The 2.0 frames are very sturdy, but they are a bit hard to hold/carry with
> the rounded edge. We put 164 of them on the Naples Botanical Garden and it
> worked out great.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Fafco Solar
>
>
> On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 9:01 PM, Dave Palumbo 
> wrote:
>
> All,
>
>
>
> We are considering using Solar World 2.0 framed modules. Not having put
> hands on these yet, we are looking for testimonials and opinions on these
> “top mount only” modules.
>
> And while we’re at, it what about Solar World’s 2.5’s with the bottom
> mount flange?
>
>
>
> David Palumbo
>
> Independent Power LLC
>
> 462 Solar Way Drive
>
> Hyde Park, VT 05655
>
>  www.independentpowerllc.com
>
> NABCEP Certified PV Installer
>
> Vermont Solar Partner
>
> 24 Years Experience, (802) 888-7194 <%28802%29%20888-7194>
>
>
>
> ___
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> Options & settings:
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>
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>
> **
>
> ** Drake Chamberlin****
> ATHENS ELECTRIC LLC
> OH License 44810****
> CO license 3773
> NABCEP Certified PV
>
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[RE-wrenches] Solar Company Apparaisals?

[lars Ortegren]

Wrenches,

I'm wondering if anyone has experience with a small business appraisal firm
with experience in doing appraisals with PV sale/or install companies? Our
industry is unique, and it would be good to find someone we didn't have to
explain the industry ins and outs first. Contact me on or off list.

 

Lars Ortegren

Director of Operations

California Solar Electric Company

10141 Evening Star Drive, Suite 6

Grass Valley, CA 95945

http://www.californiasolarco.com/

 

Phone : (530)274-3671

Fax: (530)274-7518

 

California C-10 Electical Contractor #779624

NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091110-89

Certified NABCEP Continuing Education Provider

 

Description: PV Installer Seal 9 24 09

More about NABCEP:

 

http://www.nabcep.org/

 

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[RE-wrenches] 120% Rule - applying to multiple load centers etc

[August Goers]

Hi Wrenches,



Please see question below forwarded from one of my fellow engineers.
Thanks, August



*From:* Eric Schoonbaert [mailto:e...@luminalt.com]
*Sent:* Monday, May 07, 2012 9:38 AM
*To:* August Goers
*Subject:* 120% Rule



The 120% rule, and how it is applied to panel board bus size has been
widely discussed. There is one part of the rule (2008 and 2011 NEC quoted
below) that gets much less attention and is the subject of this email. That
is, how and when is the rule applied to a conductor? The heading and text
both clearly say bus or *conductor *rating [emphasis added].

* *

*2011 NEC 705.12 Point of Connection* *(D)* *(2)* *Bus or Conductor
Rating.* The
sum of the ampere ratings of overcurrent devices in circuits supplying
power to a busbar or conductor shall not exceed 120 percent of the rating
of the busbar or conductor.



*2008 690.64 Point of Connection (B) (2)* *Bus or Conductor Rating.* The
sum of the ampere ratings of overcurrent devices in circuits supplying
power to a busbar or conductor shall not exceed 120 percent of the rating
of the busbar or conductor. In systems with panelboards connected in
series, the rating of the first overcurrent device directly connected to
the output of a utility-interactive inverter(s) shall be used in the
calculations for all busbars and conductors



In Homepower 140 (December 2010 & January 2011), John Wiles has several
examples of the application of the 120% rule in his code corner article. I
have included one below.



For example: Two inverters each require a 50 A backfed breaker in a main
lug inverter combining load center to meet 690.8 requirements. A
supply-side connection is going to be made with a 100 A fused disconnect.
The rating of the combining load center and the ampacity of the
conductor to the 100 A fused disconnect must follow the
690.64(B)(2) requirements. As noted, even with a supply-side connection, as
soon as the circuit passes through the service
entrance disconnect/overcurrent device, all load-side requirements apply,
because the PC circuit is now on the load side of the service disconnect.

(50 A + 50 A +100 A) ÷ 1.2 = 200 A ÷ 1.2 = 166.7 A



The numbers indicate that a 200 A inverter load center/panel would be
needed because there is no 175 A option available. Assuming a 75°C rated
conductor, a 2/0 AWG conductor should be used between that panel and the
100 A fused disconnect



My particular question concerns the application of this rule to the
ampacity of the conductor. This is the only example I have come across
where the rule is applied to a conductor in this way. Is it the intention
of the code language to size the conductor between a main lug sub panel
used to combine solar circuits and the OCPD for the panel using the 120%
rule? Or is the inclusion of the word *conductor* to ensure that load
centers that have conductors integral to them are covered?



What about other equipment between along the conductor such as a utility of
fire department disconnect? In the John Wiles example above, if an utility
disconnect was to be located along the conductor, would 200 A rated
disconnect be necessary?



Applying this rule to the conductor does not seem to follow the same logic
(at least as I understand it) as a panel board bus bar which has spots for
additional circuits between the OCPD's supplying power to it while a
conductor is typically does not.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Logo(?) Shrink Tubing

[James Jarvis]

We use a Kroy K4350 heat shrink tubing printer. I believe we purchased 
it and the heat shrink tubing material from:

http://www.cablemarkers.com/
Specifically:
http://www.cablemarkers.com/k4300.htm

The printer works like a normal windows printer and you can print 
anything you want to it. It looks very sharp and the printing appears to 
be impervious to UV. We use it to mark our outdoor sensors cable 
assemblies. Here is an example:

http://www.aprsworld.com/gallery/customCables/IMG_2821

Thanks,

-James Jarvis
APRS World, LLC


On 05/07/2012 10:35 AM, Bill Loesch wrote:


Hi All,

Many moons ago, I believe it was Trace that had shrink tubing with it's
logo (or at least printing) on the tube.

Anyone know if that is only manufactured so or is an aftermarket process
also available. I am aware of the label maker/tubing maker product but
only know enough to be dangerous.

Thanks for any collective knowledge/experience.

Bill Loesch
Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar


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--
-James Jefferson Jarvis
APRS World, LLC
+1-507-454-2727
www.aprsworld.com
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[RE-wrenches] Logo(?) Shrink Tubing

[Bill Loesch]

Hi All,

Many moons ago, I believe it was Trace that had shrink tubing with it's 
logo (or at least printing) on the tube.


Anyone know if that is only manufactured so or is an aftermarket process 
also available. I am aware of the label maker/tubing maker product but 
only know enough to be dangerous.


Thanks for any collective knowledge/experience.

Bill Loesch
Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Nickel-Iron Batteries

[Exeltech]

Bob is correct in his warning about the Chinese Ni-Fe
cells.  As I recall, they had a translucent white case,
but there may have been others .. and as Bob mentioned,
they did indeed have a very high failure rate.

Thanks Bob for remembering this.

Mine are (and were) Edison cells, and were imprinted with
the word "Edison" on the caps and the cell cases.

A quick word of advice ...

You *can* get the charge voltage (and subsequently current)
too high in the sense the cells out-gas hydrogen and oxygen
just like lead-acid, and will do so vigorously when fully
charged.  The plates won't warp due to heat as will lead-acid,
but the risk of of an H2 explosion is still very real.  This
also causes the electrolyte to be deposited all over the tops
of the cells and elsewhere.  It's oily and difficult to clean
up.


Dan


--- On Mon, 5/7/12, bob ellison  wrote:

> From: bob ellison 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Nickel-Iron Batteries
> To: "'RE-wrenches'" 
> Date: Monday, May 7, 2012, 4:38 AM
> 
> The bigger warning is with the "Chinese" NiFe cells.
> 
> There was a company importing them 15-20 years or so ago.
> The failure rate was very high and the factory support was
> almost nonexistent. Unless you're a tinkerer, they are great
> cells to stay away from!
> 
> I know people who use the original Edison cells in power
> systems and have seen people just using them as a DC source.
> Don't worry, you can't get the voltage too high when charging
> them. They just take it. They don't freeze and if I remember
> correctly, temp does not alter the output either. There are
> plenty of the original Edison Cells still out there.
> 
> Later,
> Bob Ellison

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar World 2.0 frames

[Jason Szumlanski]

This was an Enphase M215 system on Unirac Solarmount rails and we used
WireClips from PV Racking. These work great for the Enphase trunk cable and
for DC conductors. I do agree that there are some wire management
difficulties.

http://www.pvracking.net/products/Accessories/WireClips-0-25-each-Sold-in-qty-of-300-WireClip-A300.html


Jason Szumlanski
Fafco Solar




On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 9:30 AM, Drake
wrote:

>  What wire restraint methods are you using?  We are looking at possibly
> using these modules with a Unirac ULA system.
>
> At 09:24 AM 5/7/2012, you wrote:
>
> The 2.0 frames are very sturdy, but they are a bit hard to hold/carry with
> the rounded edge. We put 164 of them on the Naples Botanical Garden and it
> worked out great.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Fafco Solar
>
>
> On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 9:01 PM, Dave Palumbo 
> wrote:
>
> All,
>
>
>
> We are considering using Solar World 2.0 framed modules. Not having put
> hands on these yet, we are looking for testimonials and opinions on these
> “top mount only” modules.
>
> And while we’re at, it what about Solar World’s 2.5’s with the bottom
> mount flange?
>
>
>
> David Palumbo
>
> Independent Power LLC
>
> 462 Solar Way Drive
>
> Hyde Park, VT 05655
>
>  www.independentpowerllc.com
>
> NABCEP Certified PV Installer
>
> Vermont Solar Partner
>
> 24 Years Experience, (802) 888-7194 <%28802%29%20888-7194>
>
>
>
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>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar World 2.0 frames

[Drake]

What wire restraint methods are you using?  We are looking at
possibly using these modules with a Unirac ULA system.  
At 09:24 AM 5/7/2012, you wrote:
The 2.0 frames are very sturdy,
but they are a bit hard to hold/carry with the rounded edge. We put 164
of them on the Naples Botanical Garden and it worked out great.
Jason Szumlanski
Fafco Solar

On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 9:01 PM, Dave Palumbo
<
d...@independentpowerllc.com> wrote:



All,

 

We are considering using Solar World 2.0 framed modules. Not having
put hands on these yet, we are looking for testimonials and opinions on
these “top mount only” modules. 

And while we’re at, it what about Solar World’s 2.5’s with the bottom
mount flange?

 

David Palumbo

Independent Power LLC 

462 Solar Way Drive

Hyde Park, VT 05655


www.independentpowerllc.com 


NABCEP Certified PV Installer

Vermont Solar Partner

24 Years Experience, (802)
888-7194 

 

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Drake
Chamberlin

ATHENS ELECTRIC LLC
OH License
44810
CO license 3773
NABCEP Certified PV



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar World 2.0 frames

[Jason Szumlanski]

The 2.0 frames are very sturdy, but they are a bit hard to hold/carry with
the rounded edge. We put 164 of them on the Naples Botanical Garden and it
worked out great.

Jason Szumlanski
Fafco Solar


On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 9:01 PM, Dave Palumbo
wrote:

> All,
>
> ** **
>
> We are considering using Solar World 2.0 framed modules. Not having put
> hands on these yet, we are looking for testimonials and opinions on these
> “top mount only” modules. 
>
> And while we’re at, it what about Solar World’s 2.5’s with the bottom
> mount flange?
>
> ** **
>
> David Palumbo
>
> Independent Power LLC 
>
> 462 Solar Way Drive
>
> Hyde Park, VT 05655**
>
> *www.independentpowerllc.com *
>
> NABCEP Certified PV Installer
>
> Vermont Solar Partner
>
> 24 Years Experience, (802) 888-7194 
>
> ** **
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Nickel-Iron Batteries

[bob ellison]

The bigger warning is with the "Chinese" NiFe cells.
There was a company importing them 15-20 years or so ago.
The failure rate was very high and the factory support was almost
nonexistent. Unless you're a tinkerer, they are great cells to stay away
from!

 I know people who use the original Edison cells in power systems and have
seen people just using them as a DC source. 
Don't worry, you can't get the voltage too high when charging them. They
just take it. They don't freeze and if I remember correctly, temp does not
alter the output either. There are plenty of the original Edison Cells still
out there.

Later,
Bob Ellison


-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Tom Duffy
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2012 7:54 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Nickel-Iron Batteries

Nickel iron has been around since Edison (Thomas) the cells are 1.2 volt and
use potassium hydroxide as an electrolyte. The problem we had with them 20
or so years ago was that the voltage range is large, too large for
electronics. So the useable range (window) is not that great. I have
actually seen some that the cases were nickel... I can't imagine what that
would cost today.

We concluded that while what you read looks amazing, they're not all that
useful for RE applications using inverters. They might be useful if you're
doing straight DC circuits. But it's a lot of cells.

Kind Regards

Tom Duffy
Senior Solar Design Engineer

Toll Free 888-895-8179
t...@thesolar.biz
For: Customer Service and Accounting 888-895-6810  Grid tie sales
888-895-7847 Off Grid sales 888-895-7765 Other Product Sales 888-895-9612
Shipping and Receiving 888-895-6497 Tech Support 888-895-8179

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Phil Theis
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2012 12:35 PM
To: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Nickel-Iron Batteries

Greetings,
Does anyone have experience with Iron Edison Batteries for an off grid
application?
They claim "excellent and reliable performance for 20+ years"
Thank you,
Phil Theis  NABCEP Certified PV Installer PennSun Solar
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