[RE-wrenches] Recommendation for torque tools
Wrenches, Do you have a favorite brand/model of torque wrenches when assembling mounts to manufacturer's specs? How do you handle calibration? TIA, -- Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5751 / Virus Database: 4311/9328 - Release Date: 03/18/15 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank
Hi Jarmo, I agree and recognize your urgency in making us aware of the proper use and charging of Li-ion batteries as well as the dangers of mistreating them. As an early adopter myself, I am very cautious in my approach even to the point of refusing to sell to some customers. Lithium battery technology is in a state of rapid evolution. Not wanting to harp on the GBS brand that I sell, but one of your points goes to prove the safety of their integrated approach. You said, ...all it takes is one poor connection or broken temp sensor on one cell. The GBS EMS system has cell level sensors for temperature (and other data) and each sensor board requires constant communication with the CPU. If the EMS fails to communicate any information with any cell, the CPU immediately shuts down both safety solenoids, disconnecting the battery. With the non integrated systems, failures that don't report information to the management system could lead to disaster. Please keep offering us the knowledge you are gaining as I am a firm believer that Lithium technology is a large part of the inevitable replacement the aged lead battery. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On 3/17/15 6:11 PM, jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com wrote: Hi: I may sound like I'm a detractor against using Lion, but that's not it. What I want to bring to light is that, being as the technology is new, not all the issues are known and there are things to learn for all early adopters in the foreseeable future. From what I can gather the framework for the issues lies in that Lion technology is based on intercalation, that is, a reversible insertion and removal of Li molecules into compounds with microscopically layered structures. This predicates that there must be no chemical reaction in the battery, but rather only the shelving of the highly reactive Li ions. If there are any chemical reactions taking place, then in the least the battery performance is compromised and in the most there is a thermal event or worse There are some very robust Lion battery packs, a favorite of mine being from a local company from Vancouver, (well Richmond, which is a suburb of Vancouver). It's a small company, but they have designed, developed, built and successfully approved their 6 kWh Lion pack for use in large car ferries in Scandinavia. The ferries have stacks of these packs in the 100's, in the MWh size. It can be done. What I'm advocating is that its best to work with companies that have the time, interest and resources to work through the wrinkles, and if not, then carefully put in reliable and precise BMS circuitry which includes things like fail safe circuits for single point failures of critical sensing circuits, the foremost of which is cell temperature. When you're pushing large currents, all it takes is one poor connection or broken temp sensor on one cell.. Here's a link to the Lion battery pack manufacturer, Corvus, http://corvus-energy.com/ I know they do a good job, but they're not cheap, for now... JARMO * Jarmo Venalainen* | *Schneider Electric **| Xantrex Brand* | *CANADA* | *Sales Application Engineer* * Phone:* +604-422-2528 | *Tech Support:* 800-670-0707 | *Mobile:* +604-505-0291 * Email:* _jarmo.venalainen@schneider-electric.com_ mailto:jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | *Site:*_www.Xantrex.com_ http://www.xantrex.com/ | *Address:* 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 http://www.xantrexrebate.com/ http://www.xantrex.com/ https://www.facebook.com/Xantrex https://twitter.com/Xantrex https://twitter.com/Xantrex ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] outback radian question
HI All, My question is. are there any known issues with the Radian interfacing with a generator? I have a customer with flickering lights. The lights are LED ( some dimmer/some on/off) The generator supplier says that there are lots of problems with the Radian. I've not heard this and don't believe it. symptoms: radian alone: no flicker generator alone: no flicker generator/charging flicker. different generator: no flicker. So there is no doubt its the generator. I'm trying to get more information to go back to the customer. Thanks jay peltz power ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping
There was a certification update the last year or so where UL standards on transformers changed. If you have an X240 that came with a 25, then it was from the old math. The X240s that ship under the new math have 20A breakers. Like you, I've installed tons of X240s with 25A breakers, but either one works. Phil On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 1:18 PM, Jerry Shafer jerrysgarag...@gmail.com wrote: Phil Please confirm i have built lots of ps2 and 4 seams to always have 25's on the x240 not 20's Jerry On Mar 18, 2015 10:04 AM, Phil Undercuffler solarp...@gmail.com wrote: The PSX-240 (independent unit in enclosure) has active cooling, so it has a higher capacity and therefore the 25A breaker. The X-240 (bare xformer) should have a 20A. The good news is, in OutBack Stacking the xformer is balancing the phases, which since there are inverters on both phases means that it typically is only processing 1-2kW or so, usually much less. Phil On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 10:34 AM, Allan Sindelar al...@sindelarsolar.com wrote: Kevin and Matt, Good advice from Matt. Just one detail: On the Outback PSX-240 (the independent unit with enclosure) the output breakers are 25A, not 20A. I suspect that the 2P breaker for the X-240 would be the same. As the unit often operates at close to its capacity, this could make a difference. Allan *Allan Sindelar* al...@sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 505%20780-2738 cell* On 3/17/2015 2:56 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: Thanks, Matt for the details here. I will be heading out to the site in the next little while and will report back what was found. Kevin -Original Message- *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]*On Behalf Of *Matt James *Sent:* March 17, 2015 12:22 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping Kevin, Not sure what happened on the dropped communication, but I had responded to you last week with some possible answers and things to check. I think I made the mistake of replying directly to your email address and not sending to the entire Re-Wrenches forum, sorry for that as I know this is information that could be helpful to others as well. In any case, Tump is right -- on an existing system where everything has been working fine for some time but now isn’t, the key is to isolate, isolate, isolate. Turn off all AC input, output and transformer breakers, then wake up each inverter by increasing the Power Save Level Master Adjust one step at a time. Confirm proper AC voltage line to neutral at the inverter’s AC output terminals – all breakers are still open. Close the breaker to the X240 balancing transformer, then close the AC output breakers of one inverter at a time, starting with the Master. Confirm that all inverters are on and have proper voltage and phasing by verifying proper AC voltage line to neutral, line to line as measured at the AC output terminals and to the output bus bars – all inverters should show 120 L-N, and any inverters programmed as L1 Slaves should show 0v L-L to the Master and 240v L-L to L2 Slaves. L2 slaves This establishes a baseline to ensure that all the power electronics, magnetics, wiring and programming are working properly. Next, start the generator and close all the input breakers. Measure AC voltage at the inverter’s input terminals, confirm that each is seeing the proper voltage and phasing. Verify that the inverters sync to and connect to the generator, and begin to charge. Measure the AC current on both phases of the generator, and verify that they are balanced. Some potential issues are: 1. Bad X240 breaker. Take a spare, 20A 2 pole DIN. 2. Transformer insulation damaged, typically by overheating. Rather unlikely, but possible. 3. Failed or mis-wired or mis-programmed inverter, likely on L2. Due to the distance to the site, consider taking a replacement board set with you. Alternately, the system can operate on both legs with the other inverters, even if it’s an uneven number, through OutBack Stacking until you can schedule another trip. 4. Heavily imbalanced load or generator. If the charging currents on the generator are imbalanced, one possible solution is to disconnect the neutral from the generator at the power system end. This presents a pure 240v load to the genset, which will force the currents to be balanced on both phases. Feel free to contact me directly if you have any problems or questions. Best Regards, Matt James Applications Engineering Manager OutBack Power Technologies Inc. Direct: (360) 618-4364 Cell: (360) 618-2869 *From:* RE-wrenches
Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank
If a communication failure with a single cell (not even an actual fault) can cause total battery shutdown, does that lead to a lot of nuisance tripping? Bruce Erickson Mendocino Solar Service PO Box 1252 Mendocino, CA 95460 707-937-1701 707-937-1741 fax br...@mendocinosolar.com Celebrating 20 Years in Solar! 1994-2014 On Mar 18, 2015, at 8:57 AM, Larry wrote: Hi Jarmo, I agree and recognize your urgency in making us aware of the proper use and charging of Li-ion batteries as well as the dangers of mistreating them. As an early adopter myself, I am very cautious in my approach even to the point of refusing to sell to some customers. Lithium battery technology is in a state of rapid evolution. Not wanting to harp on the GBS brand that I sell, but one of your points goes to prove the safety of their integrated approach. You said, ...all it takes is one poor connection or broken temp sensor on one cell. The GBS EMS system has cell level sensors for temperature (and other data) and each sensor board requires constant communication with the CPU. If the EMS fails to communicate any information with any cell, the CPU immediately shuts down both safety solenoids, disconnecting the battery. With the non integrated systems, failures that don't report information to the management system could lead to disaster. Please keep offering us the knowledge you are gaining as I am a firm believer that Lithium technology is a large part of the inevitable replacement the aged lead battery. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On 3/17/15 6:11 PM, jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com wrote: Hi: I may sound like I'm a detractor against using Lion, but that's not it. What I want to bring to light is that, being as the technology is new, not all the issues are known and there are things to learn for all early adopters in the foreseeable future. From what I can gather the framework for the issues lies in that Lion technology is based on intercalation, that is, a reversible insertion and removal of Li molecules into compounds with microscopically layered structures. This predicates that there must be no chemical reaction in the battery, but rather only the shelving of the highly reactive Li ions. If there are any chemical reactions taking place, then in the least the battery performance is compromised and in the most there is a thermal event or worse There are some very robust Lion battery packs, a favorite of mine being from a local company from Vancouver, (well Richmond, which is a suburb of Vancouver). It's a small company, but they have designed, developed, built and successfully approved their 6 kWh Lion pack for use in large car ferries in Scandinavia. The ferries have stacks of these packs in the 100's, in the MWh size. It can be done. What I'm advocating is that its best to work with companies that have the time, interest and resources to work through the wrinkles, and if not, then carefully put in reliable and precise BMS circuitry which includes things like fail safe circuits for single point failures of critical sensing circuits, the foremost of which is cell temperature. When you're pushing large currents, all it takes is one poor connection or broken temp sensor on one cell.. Here's a link to the Lion battery pack manufacturer, Corvus, http://corvus-energy.com/ I know they do a good job, but they're not cheap, for now... JARMO Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 Mail Attachment.gif Mail Attachment.gifMail Attachment.gif Mail Attachment.gif Mail Attachment.gif ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank
Not at all. The EMS boards are well built and are protected under a cover with the terminals. I have not had any failures of the EMS boards or any failure to communicate with them. Larry On 3/18/15 4:52 PM, Bruce Erickson wrote: If a communication failure with a single cell (not even an actual fault) can cause total battery shutdown, does that lead to a lot of nuisance tripping? *Bruce Erickson* Mendocino Solar Service PO Box 1252 Mendocino, CA 95460 707-937-1701 707-937-1741 fax br...@mendocinosolar.com mailto:br...@mendocinosolar.com /Celebrating 20 Years in Solar!/1994-2014 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank
We use elite batteries with BMS no problems, the BMS sensor does seem to run warm we are now setting up 4, 100 Ah banks with no problems so far. Jerry On Mar 18, 2015 1:52 PM, Bruce Erickson br...@mendocinosolar.com wrote: If a communication failure with a single cell (not even an actual fault) can cause total battery shutdown, does that lead to a lot of nuisance tripping? *Bruce Erickson* Mendocino Solar Service PO Box 1252 Mendocino, CA 95460 707-937-1701 707-937-1741 fax br...@mendocinosolar.com *Celebrating 20 Years in Solar!* 1994-2014 On Mar 18, 2015, at 8:57 AM, Larry wrote: Hi Jarmo, I agree and recognize your urgency in making us aware of the proper use and charging of Li-ion batteries as well as the dangers of mistreating them. As an early adopter myself, I am very cautious in my approach even to the point of refusing to sell to some customers. Lithium battery technology is in a state of rapid evolution. Not wanting to harp on the GBS brand that I sell, but one of your points goes to prove the safety of their integrated approach. You said, ...all it takes is one poor connection or broken temp sensor on one cell. The GBS EMS system has cell level sensors for temperature (and other data) and each sensor board requires constant communication with the CPU. If the EMS fails to communicate any information with any cell, the CPU immediately shuts down both safety solenoids, disconnecting the battery. With the non integrated systems, failures that don't report information to the management system could lead to disaster. Please keep offering us the knowledge you are gaining as I am a firm believer that Lithium technology is a large part of the inevitable replacement the aged lead battery. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On 3/17/15 6:11 PM, jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com wrote: Hi: I may sound like I'm a detractor against using Lion, but that's not it. What I want to bring to light is that, being as the technology is new, not all the issues are known and there are things to learn for all early adopters in the foreseeable future. From what I can gather the framework for the issues lies in that Lion technology is based on intercalation, that is, a reversible insertion and removal of Li molecules into compounds with microscopically layered structures. This predicates that there must be no chemical reaction in the battery, but rather only the shelving of the highly reactive Li ions. If there are any chemical reactions taking place, then in the least the battery performance is compromised and in the most there is a thermal event or worse There are some very robust Lion battery packs, a favorite of mine being from a local company from Vancouver, (well Richmond, which is a suburb of Vancouver). It's a small company, but they have designed, developed, built and successfully approved their 6 kWh Lion pack for use in large car ferries in Scandinavia. The ferries have stacks of these packs in the 100's, in the MWh size. It can be done. What I'm advocating is that its best to work with companies that have the time, interest and resources to work through the wrinkles, and if not, then carefully put in reliable and precise BMS circuitry which includes things like fail safe circuits for single point failures of critical sensing circuits, the foremost of which is cell temperature. When you're pushing large currents, all it takes is one poor connection or broken temp sensor on one cell.. Here's a link to the Lion battery pack manufacturer, Corvus, http://corvus-energy.com/ I know they do a good job, but they're not cheap, for now... JARMO * Jarmo Venalainen* | * Schneider Electric ** | Xantrex Brand* | *CANADA* | *Sales Application Engineer* * Phone:* +604-422-2528 | *Tech Support:* 800-670-0707 | *Mobile:* +604-505-0291 * Email:* *jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com* jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | *Site:** www.Xantrex.com* http://www.xantrex.com/ | *Address:* 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 Mail Attachment.gif http://www.xantrexrebate.com/ Mail Attachment.gif http://www.xantrex.com/ Mail Attachment.gif https://www.facebook.com/Xantrex Mail Attachment.gif https://twitter.com/Xantrex Mail Attachment.gif https://twitter.com/Xantrex ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question
This sounds like the exact same issue with the FX and VFX inverters. Meter the power quality while under charge - nasty. We found a lot of computerized control systems on furnaces and boilers would either reject the power and not power up, or would behave erratically, some would be ok if you powered it up before generator on, some not. They were fine on inverter, fine on generator, but under charge bad. Ended up swapping out a lot of inverters since customers were not so keen on certain loads not operating properly when under generator charge. Kevin -Original Message- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of jay peltz Sent: March 18, 2015 5:32 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question HI All, My question is. are there any known issues with the Radian interfacing with a generator? I have a customer with flickering lights. The lights are LED ( some dimmer/some on/off) The generator supplier says that there are lots of problems with the Radian. I've not heard this and don't believe it. symptoms: radian alone: no flicker generator alone: no flicker generator/charging flicker. different generator: no flicker. So there is no doubt its the generator. I'm trying to get more information to go back to the customer. Thanks jay peltz power ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question
Are LED's on dimmers and non dimmers flickering or just dimmer switch connected lightsi have had problems with LED's on dimmer switches even with LED specific dimmer switches. .. Just an idea. ... On Mar 18, 2015 7:39 PM, jay peltz j...@asis.com wrote: HI All, My question is. are there any known issues with the Radian interfacing with a generator? I have a customer with flickering lights. The lights are LED ( some dimmer/some on/off) The generator supplier says that there are lots of problems with the Radian. I've not heard this and don't believe it. symptoms: radian alone: no flicker generator alone: no flicker generator/charging flicker. different generator: no flicker. So there is no doubt its the generator. I'm trying to get more information to go back to the customer. Thanks jay peltz power ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] outback radian question
I have not had any issues with either the FX or Radian. I have had lots of bad gennys fields failed, over under voltage, Check programming possible overloading of the genny Jerry On Mar 18, 2015 4:39 PM, jay peltz j...@asis.com wrote: HI All, My question is. are there any known issues with the Radian interfacing with a generator? I have a customer with flickering lights. The lights are LED ( some dimmer/some on/off) The generator supplier says that there are lots of problems with the Radian. I've not heard this and don't believe it. symptoms: radian alone: no flicker generator alone: no flicker generator/charging flicker. different generator: no flicker. So there is no doubt its the generator. I'm trying to get more information to go back to the customer. Thanks jay peltz power ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank
We're leaning toward the LiFePO4 batteries (low internal resistance) GBS have a medium high resistance so they warm faster and have a lower C rate efficiency, were gathering info as we go.. Max Balchowsky Design Engineer Golden Bridge Development 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 760-403-6810Building a Better Future For The Next Generation From: Larry la...@starlightsolar.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2015 8:57 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank Hi Jarmo, I agree and recognize your urgency in making us aware of the proper use and charging of Li-ion batteries as well as the dangers of mistreating them. As an early adopter myself, I am very cautious in my approach even to the point of refusing to sell to some customers. Lithium battery technology is in a state of rapid evolution. Not wanting to harp on the GBS brand that I sell, but one of your points goes to prove the safety of their integrated approach. You said, ...all it takes is one poor connection or broken temp sensor on one cell. The GBS EMS system has cell level sensors for temperature (and other data) and each sensor board requires constant communication with the CPU. If the EMS fails to communicate any information with any cell, the CPU immediately shuts down both safety solenoids, disconnecting the battery. With the non integrated systems, failures that don't report information to the management system could lead to disaster. Please keep offering us the knowledge you are gaining as I am a firm believer that Lithium technology is a large part of the inevitable replacement the aged lead battery. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On 3/17/15 6:11 PM, jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com wrote: Hi: I may sound like I'm a detractor against using Lion, but that's not it. What I want to bring to light is that, being as the technology is new, not all the issues are known and there are things to learn for all early adopters in the foreseeable future. From what I can gather the framework for the issues lies in that Lion technology is based on intercalation, that is, a reversible insertion and removal of Li molecules into compounds with microscopically layered structures. This predicates that there must be no chemical reaction in the battery, but rather only the shelving of the highly reactive Li ions. If there are any chemical reactions taking place, then in the least the battery performance is compromised and in the most there is a thermal event or worse There are some very robust Lion battery packs, a favorite of mine being from a local company from Vancouver, (well Richmond, which is a suburb of Vancouver). It's a small company, but they have designed, developed, built and successfully approved their 6 kWh Lion pack for use in large car ferries in Scandinavia. The ferries have stacks of these packs in the 100's, in the MWh size. It can be done. What I'm advocating is that its best to work with companies that have the time, interest and resources to work through the wrinkles, and if not, then carefully put in reliable and precise BMS circuitry which includes things like fail safe circuits for single point failures of critical sensing circuits, the foremost of which is cell temperature. When you're pushing large currents, all it takes is one poor connection or broken temp sensor on one cell.. Here's a link to the Lion battery pack manufacturer, Corvus, http://corvus-energy.com/ I know they do a good job, but they're not cheap, for now... JARMO Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 | | | | | | | | | ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping
The PSX-240 (independent unit in enclosure) has active cooling, so it has a higher capacity and therefore the 25A breaker. The X-240 (bare xformer) should have a 20A. The good news is, in OutBack Stacking the xformer is balancing the phases, which since there are inverters on both phases means that it typically is only processing 1-2kW or so, usually much less. Phil On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 10:34 AM, Allan Sindelar al...@sindelarsolar.com wrote: Kevin and Matt, Good advice from Matt. Just one detail: On the Outback PSX-240 (the independent unit with enclosure) the output breakers are 25A, not 20A. I suspect that the 2P breaker for the X-240 would be the same. As the unit often operates at close to its capacity, this could make a difference. Allan *Allan Sindelar* al...@sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 505%20780-2738 cell* On 3/17/2015 2:56 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: Thanks, Matt for the details here. I will be heading out to the site in the next little while and will report back what was found. Kevin -Original Message- *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]*On Behalf Of *Matt James *Sent:* March 17, 2015 12:22 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping Kevin, Not sure what happened on the dropped communication, but I had responded to you last week with some possible answers and things to check. I think I made the mistake of replying directly to your email address and not sending to the entire Re-Wrenches forum, sorry for that as I know this is information that could be helpful to others as well. In any case, Tump is right -- on an existing system where everything has been working fine for some time but now isn’t, the key is to isolate, isolate, isolate. Turn off all AC input, output and transformer breakers, then wake up each inverter by increasing the Power Save Level Master Adjust one step at a time. Confirm proper AC voltage line to neutral at the inverter’s AC output terminals – all breakers are still open. Close the breaker to the X240 balancing transformer, then close the AC output breakers of one inverter at a time, starting with the Master. Confirm that all inverters are on and have proper voltage and phasing by verifying proper AC voltage line to neutral, line to line as measured at the AC output terminals and to the output bus bars – all inverters should show 120 L-N, and any inverters programmed as L1 Slaves should show 0v L-L to the Master and 240v L-L to L2 Slaves. L2 slaves This establishes a baseline to ensure that all the power electronics, magnetics, wiring and programming are working properly. Next, start the generator and close all the input breakers. Measure AC voltage at the inverter’s input terminals, confirm that each is seeing the proper voltage and phasing. Verify that the inverters sync to and connect to the generator, and begin to charge. Measure the AC current on both phases of the generator, and verify that they are balanced. Some potential issues are: 1. Bad X240 breaker. Take a spare, 20A 2 pole DIN. 2. Transformer insulation damaged, typically by overheating. Rather unlikely, but possible. 3. Failed or mis-wired or mis-programmed inverter, likely on L2. Due to the distance to the site, consider taking a replacement board set with you. Alternately, the system can operate on both legs with the other inverters, even if it’s an uneven number, through OutBack Stacking until you can schedule another trip. 4. Heavily imbalanced load or generator. If the charging currents on the generator are imbalanced, one possible solution is to disconnect the neutral from the generator at the power system end. This presents a pure 240v load to the genset, which will force the currents to be balanced on both phases. Feel free to contact me directly if you have any problems or questions. Best Regards, Matt James Applications Engineering Manager OutBack Power Technologies Inc. Direct: (360) 618-4364 Cell: (360) 618-2869 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Kevin Pegg *Sent:* Monday, March 16, 2015 10:51 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping Thanks for everyone's advise on this one. I've done as much as I can working with the caretaker remotely and will need to attend myself with some test gear to fully diagnose. This site is remote (10h of driving then 1h boat ride). I generally make a point of avoiding Outback product so feel much better informed to diagnose when onsite - later in the
Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping
Phil Please confirm i have built lots of ps2 and 4 seams to always have 25's on the x240 not 20's Jerry On Mar 18, 2015 10:04 AM, Phil Undercuffler solarp...@gmail.com wrote: The PSX-240 (independent unit in enclosure) has active cooling, so it has a higher capacity and therefore the 25A breaker. The X-240 (bare xformer) should have a 20A. The good news is, in OutBack Stacking the xformer is balancing the phases, which since there are inverters on both phases means that it typically is only processing 1-2kW or so, usually much less. Phil On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 10:34 AM, Allan Sindelar al...@sindelarsolar.com wrote: Kevin and Matt, Good advice from Matt. Just one detail: On the Outback PSX-240 (the independent unit with enclosure) the output breakers are 25A, not 20A. I suspect that the 2P breaker for the X-240 would be the same. As the unit often operates at close to its capacity, this could make a difference. Allan *Allan Sindelar* al...@sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. *505 780-2738 505%20780-2738 cell* On 3/17/2015 2:56 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote: Thanks, Matt for the details here. I will be heading out to the site in the next little while and will report back what was found. Kevin -Original Message- *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]*On Behalf Of *Matt James *Sent:* March 17, 2015 12:22 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping Kevin, Not sure what happened on the dropped communication, but I had responded to you last week with some possible answers and things to check. I think I made the mistake of replying directly to your email address and not sending to the entire Re-Wrenches forum, sorry for that as I know this is information that could be helpful to others as well. In any case, Tump is right -- on an existing system where everything has been working fine for some time but now isn’t, the key is to isolate, isolate, isolate. Turn off all AC input, output and transformer breakers, then wake up each inverter by increasing the Power Save Level Master Adjust one step at a time. Confirm proper AC voltage line to neutral at the inverter’s AC output terminals – all breakers are still open. Close the breaker to the X240 balancing transformer, then close the AC output breakers of one inverter at a time, starting with the Master. Confirm that all inverters are on and have proper voltage and phasing by verifying proper AC voltage line to neutral, line to line as measured at the AC output terminals and to the output bus bars – all inverters should show 120 L-N, and any inverters programmed as L1 Slaves should show 0v L-L to the Master and 240v L-L to L2 Slaves. L2 slaves This establishes a baseline to ensure that all the power electronics, magnetics, wiring and programming are working properly. Next, start the generator and close all the input breakers. Measure AC voltage at the inverter’s input terminals, confirm that each is seeing the proper voltage and phasing. Verify that the inverters sync to and connect to the generator, and begin to charge. Measure the AC current on both phases of the generator, and verify that they are balanced. Some potential issues are: 1. Bad X240 breaker. Take a spare, 20A 2 pole DIN. 2. Transformer insulation damaged, typically by overheating. Rather unlikely, but possible. 3. Failed or mis-wired or mis-programmed inverter, likely on L2. Due to the distance to the site, consider taking a replacement board set with you. Alternately, the system can operate on both legs with the other inverters, even if it’s an uneven number, through OutBack Stacking until you can schedule another trip. 4. Heavily imbalanced load or generator. If the charging currents on the generator are imbalanced, one possible solution is to disconnect the neutral from the generator at the power system end. This presents a pure 240v load to the genset, which will force the currents to be balanced on both phases. Feel free to contact me directly if you have any problems or questions. Best Regards, Matt James Applications Engineering Manager OutBack Power Technologies Inc. Direct: (360) 618-4364 Cell: (360) 618-2869 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Kevin Pegg *Sent:* Monday, March 16, 2015 10:51 AM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback quad stack X240 breaker tripping Thanks for everyone's advise on this one. I've done as much as I can working with the caretaker remotely and will need to attend myself with some test gear to fully
Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank
Larry, I've been checking out the [current] viability of Li+ technologies for RE systems, and I'm encouraged to hear of the success you've apparently had. What is the typical kWh size of the battery packs you've been putting together? Are you sourcing the GBS batteries directly from the manufacturer? I appreciate both your and Jarmo's comments about the safety concerns with this rapidly evolving technology. Feeling good about the long term safety of a large RE-scale Li-ion battery pack for my customers has been a major stumbling block for me thus far. Thanks, -Luke Luke Christy NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 CoSEIA Certified PV Installer Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO. 81144 sgsrenewab...@gmail.com 719.588.3044 www.sgsrenewables.com ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank
Hi Chris, Thanks for the recommendation. I received a quote from Comrent$1800 to rent a load for 1 week. Ouch! I'll go with the $10 water elements and a little fabrication time. I have AH counters and controllers to stop the discharge. Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On 3/17/15 2:38 PM, Chris Mason wrote: Load banks are for rent, I am in the generator business and it is a common requirement to provide a load bank upon installation. http://www.comrent.com/Solutions/load-bank-rentals.html ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
