Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA 40 series DC disconnect

2016-12-16 Thread Martin Herzfeld 
2014 NEC 690.18 is now removed in NEC 2017?

Martin Herzfeld, IREC Certified Master Trainer ™ for PV Installation
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On Dec 15, 2016 1:09 PM,  wrote:

William,



I was also surprised to see SMA go down this road (ala Fronius IG). I can’t
speak to why they did this. I’m installing my first 40 series right now.



I have never supported covering the array as a viable method of removing
voltage. It is far safer to unplug the strings on the roof if you want to
remove voltage. Not sure why they did not suggest unplugging instead of
tarping.



Either way, many jurisdictions will require an external dc disconnect with
this new configuration—what a waste. If SMA were smart, they would put
connectors in their dc connection box to be compliant with the 2017 NEC
which would solve their problem. It means a design change. They must be
expecting this product to be connected to a rapid shutdown switch
box—that’s the only thing that makes sense.



Bill.





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *William Miller
*Sent:* Wednesday, December 14, 2016 10:45 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches 
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA 40 series DC disconnect



Bill:



That is exactly my point.  Carports and ground-mounts do not need RS, but
any system requires safe means to disconnect DC.  So how do you accomplish
this with the 40 series?



Sure, using the DC connector is one way to disconnect the DC input to the
40 series electronics.  However, the service manual cautions against this.
Below is the verbatim text from the manual.



>From SMA Document SB30-77-1SP-US-40-AT-PU-SG-xx-11 Service Manual:



• If an external DC disconnecting switch is available, open the external DC
disconnecting

switch.

• If there is no external DC disconnecting switch, cover the PV modules
with opaque

material (e.g. foil).

• Ensure that there is no voltage on the DC conductors of the PV array.

• Wait five minutes before working on the inverter.

• Leave the *DC-in *connecting terminal plate plugged into the Connection
Unit and only

touch it on the black enclosure.



I was told that the term ‘foil’ is a poor translation from German, and
likely means a tarp.  In any event, this verbiage is quite unfortunate as
it precludes using the connector as a disconnect.  I wonder if there is
some criteria on what kind of connectors can be used as a disconnecting
means and which cannot.  I am sure it has something to do with ‘touch-safe’
requirements.  The DC connector in the 40 series may not meet this
criteria.  The external leads could possibly come free of the connector
body as they are just insert-connected.  I would be very reticent to send
out a technician to work on one of these without some serious consideration
of the implications.



SMA seems like they are interested in this conundrum and I am withholding
judgement pending receiving a response from them.  I just thought it very
curious that they moved the location of the disconnect in the DC power flow
scheme.   Seems to me like a fundamental change that flew under the radar.
See below for a rendering of the change in DC power flow:



Formerly:  PV--àIntegrated Disconnectàchassis separation



40 Series:  PV àchassis separation--àIntegrated Disconnect





William



PS:  I remember wasting an entire afternoon in a conference room in San
Diego arguing with Fronius about the same concept.  They too insisted that
to service the IG series inverter one had to just tarp the modules.  Let us
please put that myth to rest once and for all:  Tarping modules is not
viable.



Wm





[image: Gradient Cap_mini]
Lic 773985
millersolar.com 
805-438-5600 <(805)%20438-5600>



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *billbroo...@sbcglobal.net
*Sent:* Wednesday, December 14, 2016 7:40 AM
*To:* 'RE-wrenches' 
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA $0 series DC disconnect



William,



I’m not sure you meant to imply this, but carports and ground mounts do not
need any RS equipment unless you were to bring the dc conductors into a
building, which would not be smart.



The 2017 NEC allows connectors to be used as isolation devices for
equipment as long as the circuit current is below 30 amps, which it always
is on

Re: [RE-wrenches] Load Management vs Multiple Inverters and OutBack Radian vs Flexware systems

2016-12-16 Thread Lones Tuss 
Hello
Radian stacking and power save levels are in the Radian Programming Manual
 Starting page 36
http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/Make_the_Power/radian_8048a_4048a/gs_8048a_4048a_operator.pdf
The GS8048A can be stacked with a GS4048A inverter for a 12Kw system.

Lones Tuss
Applications Engineer
OutBack Power Technologies
17825 59th Ave NE, Suite B, Arlington, WA 98223
360.618.4383 Office | 425.213.8794 Cell
www.outbackpower.com

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of William Miller
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2016 11:18 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Load Management vs Multiple Inverters and OutBack 
Radian vs Flexware systems

Dave:

Here are the differences between the Outback Radian and FX inverters that I 
think are pertinent to your situation:


1.The Radian has generator support.  Don’t confuse this with generator 
start.  Gen support allows the inverter to sync to and aid the generator in 
providing power to loads.  The new FX inverter is the FXR and I am not sure it 
has this capability.  It is worth checking into.  Avoid an inverter without 
this function.

2.The Radian provides more power per hub-port than does the FX series.  The 
Radian can provide 8 kw per hub port while the FX maxes out at 3.6 kW per port. 
  This may not seem important but it can be.  If you have a Flexnet DC unit it 
occupies on port, therefore you are limited to 32 Kw (3.6 * 9 ports).  With 
Radian, you are allowed up to 72 Kw (8*9 ports).  And if you reach these 
maximums, there are no ports for charge controllers.  I wish Outback would put 
some resources into eliminating this bottleneck (and allow more than one Mate, 
please).

3.I am not fond of the X240 transformer system.  I have seen too many 
instances of tripped breakers.  The power save scheme is awkward when using FX 
inverters, and if you ask three Outback employees about setting this function 
you will get three answers.

4.Outback supposedly has a white paper on stacking more than two Radians, 
but I can’t seem to find it.  Lones, do you have access to this?

5.You are correct in looking at battery charging ratings.  With a big 
system comes big batteries.  You want to be able to charge them in an 
appropriate length of time.

I always hesitate to try and comingle equipment from too many different 
manufacturers.  Battery inverter systems are finicky enough as they are.  This 
may preclude load management.  Consider how you would implement this:  it would 
mean contactors, maybe an additional sub-panel, wiring, etc.  Sounds 
problematic to me.

Wiring a Radian system is different than wiring a Flexware system.  I find the 
Radian easier now that I have learned a few tricks:


1.Remove all AC breakers from the GSLC cabinets.  Instead use two outboard 
load centers: one for generator fed and one for inverter fed.  To provide 
bypass, run the generator power to the inverter fed panel and provide breaker 
interlocks.  For smaller systems use a factory provided interlock.  For larger 
systems, we custom build breaker interlocks.  Contact me off-line for more 
information.

2.Remove all of the PV breakers from the GSLC.  You can use a Midnite DIN 
rail or panel mount breaker cabinet or even an Outback combiner to mount din 
rail mount your PV and charge controller breakers.

I hope this helps.

William Miller


[Gradient Cap_mini]
Lic 773985
millersolar.com
805-438-5600



On Dec 15, 2016, at 10:08 AM, Dave Palumbo 
> wrote:

Wrenchers,

I am involved in designing an off grid system that will need  multiple 
inverters (probably OutBack). My experience over the years has been limited to 
no more than 8kW's of inverter on a big system (for me). The load profile is 
not completed yet, but it is looking like this may require more power if all of 
the loads were to be on/surge at the same time. The client wants things to run 
as seamlessly as practical and has the means to pay for a nice system.
• Are automatic load management devices worth looking into? I have no 
experience with them except for one of my off griders (early adopter type) had 
one put in about 15 years ago on his system and I think it worked OK but it 
seemed like a lot of money and work to install and it takes up some space. More 
technical stuff to deal with.
• How fool proof is it and is it worth messing with? Vs. adding more 
inverter wattage?

• With OutBack these days what are the Pros and Cons comparing a Radian 
system vs a Flexware 1000 system?
• Why does the Radian line have different ratings per unit of a 48VDC 
inverter? Isn't the Radian two vented 48V inverters in a big box?
• The regular OB VFXR3648's  have lower continuous power and surge 
ratings and lower battery charging amps when compared to a Radian. Two OB 
VFR3648's @ 7,200VA

[RE-wrenches] Carbon Foam AGM Deep Cycle Batteries

2016-12-16 Thread dan 
Seasons Greetings Esteemed Colleagues, Friends, Neighbors and various fellow Lower Echelon Pions. I have a customer inquiring about a product named " Firefly Oasis 12v group 31 batteries". I've done a little research and found they are primarily a marine grade Carbon Foam AGM battery. Admittedly I'm not as up on all the battery developments as I could be..  was hoping someone on the list might offer some insight. Thanks, Merry, Merry, Ho, Ho, Ho and all that.dbDan BrownFoxfire Energy Corp.Renewable Energy Systems(802)-483-2564www.Foxfire-Energy.comNABCEP #092907-44
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Re: [RE-wrenches] SB -40 Wi-Fi

2016-12-16 Thread Chris Mason 
In the Caribbean, the SMA displays all turn yellow and become opaque. I use
the bluetooth feature for programming them.
I won't miss the useless displays.

On Thu, Dec 15, 2016 at 3:39 PM, William Miller 
wrote:

> Howie:
>
>
>
> I have not tried the Wi-Fi capabilities, so I cannot comment on that
> aspect.  What is relevant, however, is the news I received from a reliable
> source that the 40 series inverter will be the last residential inverter
> manufactured by SMA that will have an on-board display.  As evidence of
> this, look in the manual for a 40 series or even a 22 series inverter-
> there is no description at all of the display functions.  Odd and
> disappointing.
>
>
>
> SMA should have a representative on this list.  It may still be Steve
> Jefferson, who is a stand-up guy. SMA, what say you about these
> communications and display questions?
>
>
>
> Wrenches, if you think having an on-board display is important, voice your
> opinion.  If the Wi-Fi is problematic, this is not a good direction.  A lot
> of my clients are elderly and they are not as adept at computer or device
> based operations. A display is essential in my opinion.  SMA, please don’t
> kill the display.
>
>
>
> William Miller
>
>
>
>
>
> [image: Gradient Cap_mini]
> Lic 773985
> millersolar.com 
> 805-438-5600 <(805)%20438-5600>
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Howie Michaelson
> *Sent:* Thursday, December 15, 2016 6:16 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches 
> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] SB -40 Wifi
>
>
>
> I am looking for comments on the viability of the Wi-Fi option of the new
> SB -40 inverters. I noticed some concern here about the poor performance of
> this option and am trying to decide whether to use it in the case of a long
> distance between the inverters and the router.
>
> I can place a repeater between the inverters and as well as purchase the
> external antenna option from SMA for the inverters, but would like to have
> an idea ahead of buying and installing the 2 antennas if this is likely to
> work. I do have the option of running an Ethernet cable, but it is a long
> (500' +) and difficult pull. Any comments or suggestions would be
> appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Howie
> Howie Michaelson
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
>
> Sun Catcher
> Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
> VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner
> 802-272-0004 <(802)%20272-0004>
>
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-- 
Chris Mason
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
Solar Design Engineer
Generac Generators Industrial technician

www.cometsolar.com 
264.235.5670
869.662.5670
Skype: netconcepts
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