Re: [RE-wrenches] MT Solar / Iron Ridge Issue

[Chris Schaefer]

Here at Solar & Wind FX 95% of our installs are poles or DAT's. We changed
over to MT I believe 3 seasons ago. I've got several of their 16 and 15
module racks out there. I did have a 15 module rack rotate on me this past
fall. It was a two pole system but only one rotated about 10 degrees. No
damage, no worries. The rack was at a winter tilt angle but not 90 degrees.
I use a 3/4 drive ratchet to tighten. While the through bolt you are
considering using is a thought, all our poles are schedule 80 8" pipe and
would be a real bitch to drill through especially at ladder height. Might I
suggest your backing plate which has the locking/engaging bolts have a
couple of pointed edges that would dig into the pole when tightened.
Perhaps even the bolts them selves have a point in them? With the DAT's we
use a 3/8" roll pin to keep them from rotating on top of the large bolts
that hold it in place. Now for our units in the higher elevations and
heavier snow falls we do in fact leave them @ 90 degrees for obvious
reasons.
Keep up the great work and I intend to keep buying from you.

Christopher Schaefer,

Chris Schaefer’s


*Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 *
*5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com
 ~ E-mail: ch...@solarandwindfx.com
*


Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said,
"democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are
willing to work and give to those who would not."


On Mon, Jan 23, 2017 at 4:33 PM, Howie Michaelson 
wrote:

> I whole heartedly agree with Gary!
>
> Having been on the site (but not responsible for the install) I looked at
> the carnage with an eye toward either installation error or equipment
> shortfall. I could see nothing that indicated either and was amazed at the
> failure. There were no trees down, no visible other wind damage, just
> trashed equipment from clearly a very powerful, likely narrow, wind burst.
> I've never seen IronRidge fail before like this either, having used it now
> for several years. I've only used MT a couple of times, but have been
> impressed with the smart and robust design.
>
> Thank you Travis for supporting Eric in specific and Wrenches in general!
>
> Howie
> Howie Michaelson
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
>
> Sun Catcher
> Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
> VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner
> 802-272-0004 <(802)%20272-0004>
>
> On Jan 23, 2017 4:14 PM, "Gary Willett" 
> wrote:
>
> TRAVIS:
>
> I have nothing technical to add.
>
> However, I am very impressed that your company stood up, took ownership of
> the issue, responsibility for the solution, and the good sense and humility
> to ask for advice. That is so rare in today's world!
>
> Best regards to you and your company!
> Gary Willett PE
> Icarus Engineering LLC
> Irving TX
>
>
> On 1/23/17 12:26 PM, Travis Jordan wrote:
>
> One of our customers installed 3 of our MT Solar TOP15 pole mounts for his
> off-grid customer in Vermont this last fall. During a recent severe wind
> storm 4 modules blew off of the middle array. Two of the mounts also turned
> on their poles. As the manufacturer of the pole mount we have identified
> several issues but we are looking for feedback and any
> information/recommendations from other installers to future proof our
> design. This thread dovetails with the recent thread about the back-mount
> module failure, but in this case the modules didn't fail, the bolts just
> pulled out of the rail! I am assuming that we had greatly in excess of the
> normal wind speeds at the site, but we have no way of determining what they
> actually were. Our many other pole mounts installed in Vermont were not
> affected by the storm.
>
> Here is the situation. The site has 3 independent pole mounts with (15)
> SW285's on each mount and the mounts are separated by roughly 20'. The home
> owner took the liberty of cranking the mounts all the way to 90 degree tilt
> for winter to eliminate snow build up. The modules that blew out were not
> all adjacent to each other. The top two on the left and then two in the
> middle are the ones that blew out, and they were all on the middle array.
> The end clamps were still in position and did not fail. Both the end array
> and the middle array turned on the pole, but the other end array neither
> moved nor showed any adverse affects at all. The modules that blew off
> ended up 20' BEHIND the middle array (to the North), and the installer
> determined that the array did NOT turn clear around since the wires were
> not pulled out. We are not sure how the modules got behind the array...
>
> Regarding the rail failure:
> The pictures show the rails were not bent but the T bolts had pulled clear
> out of the top slot of the Iron Ridge rail. Iron Ridge only specifies data
> for up to 45 degree tilt (not 90 degree), so we assumed responsibility for
> the rail failure and paid for the 12 mo

Re: [RE-wrenches] MT Solar / Iron Ridge Issue

[Howie Michaelson]

I whole heartedly agree with Gary!

Having been on the site (but not responsible for the install) I looked at
the carnage with an eye toward either installation error or equipment
shortfall. I could see nothing that indicated either and was amazed at the
failure. There were no trees down, no visible other wind damage, just
trashed equipment from clearly a very powerful, likely narrow, wind burst.
I've never seen IronRidge fail before like this either, having used it now
for several years. I've only used MT a couple of times, but have been
impressed with the smart and robust design.

Thank you Travis for supporting Eric in specific and Wrenches in general!

Howie
Howie Michaelson
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™

Sun Catcher
Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner
802-272-0004

On Jan 23, 2017 4:14 PM, "Gary Willett" 
wrote:

TRAVIS:

I have nothing technical to add.

However, I am very impressed that your company stood up, took ownership of
the issue, responsibility for the solution, and the good sense and humility
to ask for advice. That is so rare in today's world!

Best regards to you and your company!
Gary Willett PE
Icarus Engineering LLC
Irving TX


On 1/23/17 12:26 PM, Travis Jordan wrote:

One of our customers installed 3 of our MT Solar TOP15 pole mounts for his
off-grid customer in Vermont this last fall. During a recent severe wind
storm 4 modules blew off of the middle array. Two of the mounts also turned
on their poles. As the manufacturer of the pole mount we have identified
several issues but we are looking for feedback and any
information/recommendations from other installers to future proof our
design. This thread dovetails with the recent thread about the back-mount
module failure, but in this case the modules didn't fail, the bolts just
pulled out of the rail! I am assuming that we had greatly in excess of the
normal wind speeds at the site, but we have no way of determining what they
actually were. Our many other pole mounts installed in Vermont were not
affected by the storm.

Here is the situation. The site has 3 independent pole mounts with (15)
SW285's on each mount and the mounts are separated by roughly 20'. The home
owner took the liberty of cranking the mounts all the way to 90 degree tilt
for winter to eliminate snow build up. The modules that blew out were not
all adjacent to each other. The top two on the left and then two in the
middle are the ones that blew out, and they were all on the middle array.
The end clamps were still in position and did not fail. Both the end array
and the middle array turned on the pole, but the other end array neither
moved nor showed any adverse affects at all. The modules that blew off
ended up 20' BEHIND the middle array (to the North), and the installer
determined that the array did NOT turn clear around since the wires were
not pulled out. We are not sure how the modules got behind the array...

Regarding the rail failure:
The pictures show the rails were not bent but the T bolts had pulled clear
out of the top slot of the Iron Ridge rail. Iron Ridge only specifies data
for up to 45 degree tilt (not 90 degree), so we assumed responsibility for
the rail failure and paid for the 12 modules that were scratched or damaged
including the 4 that blew out, but now we are looking for a long term
solution. We are changing our manuals to say max 60 degree tilt (is that
acceptable to you installers?), and we are looking for a different rail
manufacturer than Iron Ridge. We are considering switching to S-Flex so we
can get away from the T bolt concept, but we are open to other suggestions?
Has anyone else had issues with Iron Ridge clamps failing?

Regarding the pole mount turning:
The engineers specified two set bolts, and we already had three for a
margin of safety. To determine where we are starting from we mounted the
pole cap on a jig in the shop press and applied 10,000 ft/lbs of rotational
force before the pole cap turned. After changing the back plate design we
were able to get that to 15,000 ft/lbs. Adding a 3/8" bolt clear through
the pole adds an additional 5,000 ft/lbs of capacity so we are adding a
hole in the pole cap for that as well. This puts us at double of what we
had, but we are reaching out to see if anyone has more actual data from the
field to add to the mix since we are already above and beyond engineering
data. We are also re-visiting the topic with another engineering firm to
determine if they have any additional data. We have also agreed to
compensate the installer for his time to repair the system, whatever he
chooses to invoice us for. As soon as this issue is resolved we plan to
provide a kit to modify all of our 15 module and bigger mounts that are
already installed to insure this does not happen again!

Eric, if you have any additional info or corrections to add as the
installer please chime in!

Looking forward to any questions, comments, or feedback any of you have!

Thanks in a

Re: [RE-wrenches] MT Solar / Iron Ridge Issue

[Gary Willett]

  
  
TRAVIS:
I have nothing technical to add.
However, I am very impressed that your company stood up, took
  ownership of the issue, responsibility for the solution, and the
  good sense and humility to ask for advice. That is so rare in
  today's world!
Best regards to you and your company!
Gary Willett PE
Icarus Engineering LLC
Irving TX

On 1/23/17 12:26 PM, Travis Jordan
  wrote:


  One of our customers installed 3 of our MT Solar
TOP15 pole mounts for his off-grid customer in Vermont this last
fall. During a recent severe wind storm 4 modules blew off of
the middle array. Two of the mounts also turned on their poles.
As the manufacturer of the pole mount we have identified several
issues but we are looking for feedback and any
information/recommendations from other installers to future
proof our design. This thread dovetails with the recent thread
about the back-mount module failure, but in this case the
modules didn't fail, the bolts just pulled out of the rail! I am
assuming that we had greatly in excess of the normal wind speeds
at the site, but we have no way of determining what they
actually were. Our many other pole mounts installed in Vermont
were not affected by the storm. 


Here is the situation. The site has 3 independent pole
  mounts with (15) SW285's on each mount and the mounts are
  separated by roughly 20'. The home owner took the liberty of
  cranking the mounts all the way to 90 degree tilt for winter
  to eliminate snow build up. The modules that blew out were not
  all adjacent to each other. The top two on the left and then
  two in the middle are the ones that blew out, and they were
  all on the middle array. The end clamps were still in position
  and did not fail. Both the end array and the middle array
  turned on the pole, but the other end array neither moved nor
  showed any adverse affects at all. The modules that blew off
  ended up 20' BEHIND the middle array (to the North), and the
  installer determined that the array did NOT turn clear around
  since the wires were not pulled out. We are not sure how the
  modules got behind the array... 


Regarding the rail failure: 
The pictures show the rails were not bent but the T bolts
  had pulled clear out of the top slot of the Iron Ridge rail.
  Iron Ridge only specifies data for up to 45 degree tilt (not
  90 degree), so we assumed responsibility for the rail failure
  and paid for the 12 modules that were scratched or damaged
  including the 4 that blew out, but now we are looking for a
  long term solution. We are changing our manuals to say max 60
  degree tilt (is that acceptable to you installers?), and we
  are looking for a different rail manufacturer than Iron Ridge.
  We are considering switching to S-Flex so we can get away from
  the T bolt concept, but we are open to other suggestions? Has
  anyone else had issues with Iron Ridge clamps failing?


Regarding the pole mount turning:
The engineers specified two set bolts, and we already had
  three for a margin of safety. To determine where we are
  starting from we mounted the pole cap on a jig in the shop
  press and applied 10,000 ft/lbs of rotational force before the
  pole cap turned. After changing the back plate design we were
  able to get that to 15,000 ft/lbs. Adding a 3/8" bolt clear
  through the pole adds an additional 5,000 ft/lbs of capacity
  so we are adding a hole in the pole cap for that as well. This
  puts us at double of what we had, but we are reaching out to
  see if anyone has more actual data from the field to add to
  the mix since we are already above and beyond engineering
  data. We are also re-visiting the topic with another
  engineering firm to determine if they have any additional
  data. We have also agreed to compensate the installer for his
  time to repair the system, whatever he chooses to invoice us
  for. As soon as this issue is resolved we plan to provide a
  kit to modify all of our 15 module and bigger mounts that are
  already installed to insure this does not happen again!


Eric, if you have any additional info or corrections to add
  as the installer please chime in!


Looking forward to any questions, comments, or feedback any
  of you have! 


Thanks in advance,



Travis Jordan
tra...@jordansolar.net

[RE-wrenches] MT Solar / Iron Ridge Issue

[Travis Jordan]

One of our customers installed 3 of our MT Solar TOP15 pole mounts for his
off-grid customer in Vermont this last fall. During a recent severe wind
storm 4 modules blew off of the middle array. Two of the mounts also turned
on their poles. As the manufacturer of the pole mount we have identified
several issues but we are looking for feedback and any
information/recommendations from other installers to future proof our
design. This thread dovetails with the recent thread about the back-mount
module failure, but in this case the modules didn't fail, the bolts just
pulled out of the rail! I am assuming that we had greatly in excess of the
normal wind speeds at the site, but we have no way of determining what they
actually were. Our many other pole mounts installed in Vermont were not
affected by the storm.

Here is the situation. The site has 3 independent pole mounts with (15)
SW285's on each mount and the mounts are separated by roughly 20'. The home
owner took the liberty of cranking the mounts all the way to 90 degree tilt
for winter to eliminate snow build up. The modules that blew out were not
all adjacent to each other. The top two on the left and then two in the
middle are the ones that blew out, and they were all on the middle array.
The end clamps were still in position and did not fail. Both the end array
and the middle array turned on the pole, but the other end array neither
moved nor showed any adverse affects at all. The modules that blew off
ended up 20' BEHIND the middle array (to the North), and the installer
determined that the array did NOT turn clear around since the wires were
not pulled out. We are not sure how the modules got behind the array...

Regarding the rail failure:
The pictures show the rails were not bent but the T bolts had pulled clear
out of the top slot of the Iron Ridge rail. Iron Ridge only specifies data
for up to 45 degree tilt (not 90 degree), so we assumed responsibility for
the rail failure and paid for the 12 modules that were scratched or damaged
including the 4 that blew out, but now we are looking for a long term
solution. We are changing our manuals to say max 60 degree tilt (is that
acceptable to you installers?), and we are looking for a different rail
manufacturer than Iron Ridge. We are considering switching to S-Flex so we
can get away from the T bolt concept, but we are open to other suggestions?
Has anyone else had issues with Iron Ridge clamps failing?

Regarding the pole mount turning:
The engineers specified two set bolts, and we already had three for a
margin of safety. To determine where we are starting from we mounted the
pole cap on a jig in the shop press and applied 10,000 ft/lbs of rotational
force before the pole cap turned. After changing the back plate design we
were able to get that to 15,000 ft/lbs. Adding a 3/8" bolt clear through
the pole adds an additional 5,000 ft/lbs of capacity so we are adding a
hole in the pole cap for that as well. This puts us at double of what we
had, but we are reaching out to see if anyone has more actual data from the
field to add to the mix since we are already above and beyond engineering
data. We are also re-visiting the topic with another engineering firm to
determine if they have any additional data. We have also agreed to
compensate the installer for his time to repair the system, whatever he
chooses to invoice us for. As soon as this issue is resolved we plan to
provide a kit to modify all of our 15 module and bigger mounts that are
already installed to insure this does not happen again!

Eric, if you have any additional info or corrections to add as the
installer please chime in!

Looking forward to any questions, comments, or feedback any of you have!

Thanks in advance,

Travis Jordan
tra...@jordansolar.net
tra...@mtsolar.us
Direct: 406-206-5105
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