Re: [RE-wrenches] Lorentz pumps

[John Blittersdorf]

Jay,

I have one on my own well 480’ down a 800’ deep well.  At the time, they
could only handle 500’ but since then have one that can pump from 1000’ and
more.  I only sold a few.  I did have to replace the circuit board on the
controller a couple of years ago and delt with a Lorentz dealer which seems
to be the major one located in Texas.
Overall, I have been impressed with the pump.  It turns 17 Year’s old this
year and started out as a direct solar pump with 4  100 watt panels but I
later connected it to a 48 volt system when a cabin was built near the
wellhead.

John Blittersdorf
Solar guru at Rob Stubbins  Electrical And Solar Contractors.


On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 3:39 PM jay  wrote:

> HI All,
>
> I’ve got a client asking me about Lorentz pumps.
>
> I know they have sort of come and gone from the USA.
>
> Is anyone using them, have any pros/cons vs Grundfos and where to get them?
>
> thanks
>
> jay
>
> peltz power
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Pump LCBs

[Steve Bell]

HI Chris,

Have you tried Sun Pumps? They make a lot of good pump controllers.

Steve Bell
Morningstar Tech Support
sb...@morningstarcorp.com

On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 1:22 PM,  wrote:

> Dear people:
>
> I have a fellow looking for a supplier of LCBs for their PV pumping
> projects; here are the specifications.  Nominal voltage, 48V; nominal PV
> input 48V; maximum PV input 60V; max output voltage 60V; max output amps
> 10A;  in a Nema 4 enclosure; rhe most important is to have an early start
> in low light conditions on 5VDC.  In 5Vdc on MPPT must start the motor
> (minimum starting voltage).
>
> It appears Solar Converters is no more...and Dankoff is not being of
> assistance on this matter.  Any other suggestions?  THANKS!
>
>
> Chris Daum
> Oasis Montana Inc.
> 406-777-4309 or 4321
> 406-777-4309 fax
> www.oasismontana.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Pump LCBs

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hey Chris,

Might be a long-shot but check with Frank at BZ Products. Rings a bell but 
can’t think why.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems






On Feb 28, 2018, at 1:22 PM, ch...@oasismontana.com wrote:

Dear people:

I have a fellow looking for a supplier of LCBs for their PV pumping projects; 
here are the specifications.  Nominal voltage, 48V; nominal PV input 48V; 
maximum PV input 60V; max output voltage 60V; max output amps 10A;  in a Nema 4 
enclosure; rhe most important is to have an early start in low light conditions 
on 5VDC.  In 5Vdc on MPPT must start the motor (minimum starting voltage). 

It appears Solar Converters is no more...and Dankoff is not being of assistance 
on this matter.  Any other suggestions?  THANKS!


Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
406-777-4309 or 4321
406-777-4309 fax
www.oasismontana.com  




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[RE-wrenches] Lorentz pumps

[jay]

HI All,

I’ve got a client asking me about Lorentz pumps.

I know they have sort of come and gone from the USA.  

Is anyone using them, have any pros/cons vs Grundfos and where to get them?

thanks

jay

peltz power
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[RE-wrenches] Pump LCBs

[chris]

Dear people:

I have a fellow looking for a supplier of LCBs for their PV pumping projects; 
here are the specifications.  Nominal voltage, 48V; nominal PV input 48V; 
maximum PV input 60V; max output voltage 60V; max output amps 10A;  in a Nema 4 
enclosure; rhe most important is to have an early start in low light conditions 
on 5VDC.  In 5Vdc on MPPT must start the motor (minimum starting voltage). 

It appears Solar Converters is no more...and Dankoff is not being of assistance 
on this matter.  Any other suggestions?  THANKS!


Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
406-777-4309 or 4321
406-777-4309 fax
www.oasismontana.com  






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Re: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

August,

The current Tesla (AC coupled only) would be a challenge for sure! I do
like the 13KWH for the price. I hope they do something as everything I
have looked at beside the LG is over $1,000 (wholesale) per ueable KWH.
Hope this changes.  --Dave


> As I mentioned on a related post, Tesla's Powerwall has an active heating
> feature where it will use some of its own energy to raise cell
> temperature.
> Obviously this means that it will need to be charged throughout the cold
> season using some amount of PV energy to do so (I think I heard 250 Wh per
> heating cycle depending on temps?). I understand that Tesla's offgrid
> Powerwall isn't ready for prime time yet.
>
> August
>
> *August Goers*
>
> Luminalt Energy Corporation
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 8:55 AM, Bill Hoffer  wrote:
>
>> Daniel
>>
>> Why are we having to deal with low temp charging?  Litium batteries
>> already have cell temp monitoring and relays to shut down individual
>> cells
>> when they over temp.  How hard would it be to open the relay at low
>> temps
>> too?  Seems like something the lithium battery folks should have already
>> thought of?
>>
>> Bill hoffer
>>
>>
>> On Feb 28, 2018 8:15 AM, "Daniel Young" 
>> wrote:
>>
>> These issues are not lost on me for sure. I have to plan out a new
>> protective setup to try to ensure that if the temperatures drop and the
>> battery bank hits LVD, that the array cannot just charge the battery
>> back
>> up
>> on it's own. Possibly some sort of temperature dependent relay or shunt
>> trip
>> breaker on the battery bank to ensure that below 35F the battery must be
>> manually warmed to resume operation, or the system waits until the
>> battery
>> warms on it's own before allowing the CC's or even a generator to charge
>> them.
>>
>> My understanding is that the lithium's can go below freezing easily, but
>> they just cannot be charged when below freezing. They can sit down to
>> -5F
>> if
>> not being charged, they can even be under discharge down to that in some
>> cases. But adding controls to allow discharge, but not charge is likely
>> a
>> bit too much, best to just isolate the battery bank if below 32-35F in
>> my
>> opinion, which is what I plan to try to accomplish.
>>
>> Ideally someone is there to watch the batteries, but that simply is not
>> an
>> option. And the client is not likely to want a new AGM bank. But they
>> will
>> have to decide between the pro's and con's. All I can do is give them
>> the
>> info, and the choice.
>>
>> With Regards,
>>
>> Daniel Young,
>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
>> Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2018 1:14 PM
>> To: RE-wrenches 
>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank
>>
>> The LG RESU series will trip it's breaker at around 10% Soc. It will
>> require
>> a human unless the LVD on the inverter is set higher than the battery.
>> Yes
>> Sir it is our responsibility to educate our users or have plane tickets
>> (:
>>
>> Will be installing the Discover battery soon into Xanbus.
>>
>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
>> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
>> text 209 813 0060
>>
>> > Hi Drake,
>> >
>> > I agree. Li-ion batteries, like lead batteries, should always have a
>> > human overseer. This is a difficult reality to convey in our
>> > set-it-forget it, automated world.
>> >
>> > One function of a Li-ion battery EMS or BMS is to prevent over
>> discharge.
>> > Once any battery cell reaches the lower limit, the battery will turn
>> off.
>> > For many systems, once charge current is again detected, the battery
>> > will turn on. Some will not and require a user to turn the battery
>> > back on. You can also install an external LVD device to stop power use
>> at
>> a higher SoC.
>> >
>> > As wrenches, its our responsibility to know our product and educate
>> > the customer. Too often, this does not happen.
>> >
>> > Larry Crutcher
>> > Starlight Solar Power Systems
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Feb 27, 2018, at 7:11 AM, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Snow on the array could be a very big problem with the heater load,
>> > inverter idle current and anything else that might be left on.
>> > Extended periods of heavy clouds can reduce power generation to be
>> > less than system's internal losses. It seems like a pretty big gamble
>> > to leave an expensive battery bank unattended, that can not go below
>> > freezing, and is dependent on array power to prevent freezing.
>> >
>> > If AGMs survive in this application, it might be better to stay with
>> > this technology.
>> >
>> >
>> > - Original Message -
>> > From: offgridso...@sti.net "RE-wrenches"
>> > 

Re: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank

[August Goers]

As I mentioned on a related post, Tesla's Powerwall has an active heating
feature where it will use some of its own energy to raise cell temperature.
Obviously this means that it will need to be charged throughout the cold
season using some amount of PV energy to do so (I think I heard 250 Wh per
heating cycle depending on temps?). I understand that Tesla's offgrid
Powerwall isn't ready for prime time yet.

August

*August Goers*

Luminalt Energy Corporation


On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 8:55 AM, Bill Hoffer  wrote:

> Daniel
>
> Why are we having to deal with low temp charging?  Litium batteries
> already have cell temp monitoring and relays to shut down individual cells
> when they over temp.  How hard would it be to open the relay at low temps
> too?  Seems like something the lithium battery folks should have already
> thought of?
>
> Bill hoffer
>
>
> On Feb 28, 2018 8:15 AM, "Daniel Young"  wrote:
>
> These issues are not lost on me for sure. I have to plan out a new
> protective setup to try to ensure that if the temperatures drop and the
> battery bank hits LVD, that the array cannot just charge the battery back
> up
> on it's own. Possibly some sort of temperature dependent relay or shunt
> trip
> breaker on the battery bank to ensure that below 35F the battery must be
> manually warmed to resume operation, or the system waits until the battery
> warms on it's own before allowing the CC's or even a generator to charge
> them.
>
> My understanding is that the lithium's can go below freezing easily, but
> they just cannot be charged when below freezing. They can sit down to -5F
> if
> not being charged, they can even be under discharge down to that in some
> cases. But adding controls to allow discharge, but not charge is likely a
> bit too much, best to just isolate the battery bank if below 32-35F in my
> opinion, which is what I plan to try to accomplish.
>
> Ideally someone is there to watch the batteries, but that simply is not an
> option. And the client is not likely to want a new AGM bank. But they will
> have to decide between the pro's and con's. All I can do is give them the
> info, and the choice.
>
> With Regards,
>
> Daniel Young,
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90
>
> -Original Message-
> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
> Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2018 1:14 PM
> To: RE-wrenches 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank
>
> The LG RESU series will trip it's breaker at around 10% Soc. It will
> require
> a human unless the LVD on the inverter is set higher than the battery. Yes
> Sir it is our responsibility to educate our users or have plane tickets (:
>
> Will be installing the Discover battery soon into Xanbus.
>
> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
> text 209 813 0060
>
> > Hi Drake,
> >
> > I agree. Li-ion batteries, like lead batteries, should always have a
> > human overseer. This is a difficult reality to convey in our
> > set-it-forget it, automated world.
> >
> > One function of a Li-ion battery EMS or BMS is to prevent over discharge.
> > Once any battery cell reaches the lower limit, the battery will turn off.
> > For many systems, once charge current is again detected, the battery
> > will turn on. Some will not and require a user to turn the battery
> > back on. You can also install an external LVD device to stop power use at
> a higher SoC.
> >
> > As wrenches, its our responsibility to know our product and educate
> > the customer. Too often, this does not happen.
> >
> > Larry Crutcher
> > Starlight Solar Power Systems
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Feb 27, 2018, at 7:11 AM, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote:
> >
> > Snow on the array could be a very big problem with the heater load,
> > inverter idle current and anything else that might be left on.
> > Extended periods of heavy clouds can reduce power generation to be
> > less than system's internal losses. It seems like a pretty big gamble
> > to leave an expensive battery bank unattended, that can not go below
> > freezing, and is dependent on array power to prevent freezing.
> >
> > If AGMs survive in this application, it might be better to stay with
> > this technology.
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: offgridso...@sti.net "RE-wrenches"
> > 
> > To:"RE-wrenches" 
> > Cc:
> > Sent:Mon, 26 Feb 2018 10:36:29 -0800 (PST)
> > Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank
> >
> >
> > Hello Daniel,
> >
> > I will give this some thought. What lithium make? The ones I have
> > looked at log the temperature for warranty so that might negate the value
> a bit.
> > The high temp is just as bad in your case here.

Re: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank

[Bill Hoffer]

Daniel

Why are we having to deal with low temp charging?  Litium batteries already
have cell temp monitoring and relays to shut down individual cells when
they over temp.  How hard would it be to open the relay at low temps too?
Seems like something the lithium battery folks should have already thought
of?

Bill hoffer

On Feb 28, 2018 8:15 AM, "Daniel Young"  wrote:

These issues are not lost on me for sure. I have to plan out a new
protective setup to try to ensure that if the temperatures drop and the
battery bank hits LVD, that the array cannot just charge the battery back up
on it's own. Possibly some sort of temperature dependent relay or shunt trip
breaker on the battery bank to ensure that below 35F the battery must be
manually warmed to resume operation, or the system waits until the battery
warms on it's own before allowing the CC's or even a generator to charge
them.

My understanding is that the lithium's can go below freezing easily, but
they just cannot be charged when below freezing. They can sit down to -5F if
not being charged, they can even be under discharge down to that in some
cases. But adding controls to allow discharge, but not charge is likely a
bit too much, best to just isolate the battery bank if below 32-35F in my
opinion, which is what I plan to try to accomplish.

Ideally someone is there to watch the batteries, but that simply is not an
option. And the client is not likely to want a new AGM bank. But they will
have to decide between the pro's and con's. All I can do is give them the
info, and the choice.

With Regards,

Daniel Young,
NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2018 1:14 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank

The LG RESU series will trip it's breaker at around 10% Soc. It will require
a human unless the LVD on the inverter is set higher than the battery. Yes
Sir it is our responsibility to educate our users or have plane tickets (:

Will be installing the Discover battery soon into Xanbus.

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

> Hi Drake,
>
> I agree. Li-ion batteries, like lead batteries, should always have a
> human overseer. This is a difficult reality to convey in our
> set-it-forget it, automated world.
>
> One function of a Li-ion battery EMS or BMS is to prevent over discharge.
> Once any battery cell reaches the lower limit, the battery will turn off.
> For many systems, once charge current is again detected, the battery
> will turn on. Some will not and require a user to turn the battery
> back on. You can also install an external LVD device to stop power use at
a higher SoC.
>
> As wrenches, its our responsibility to know our product and educate
> the customer. Too often, this does not happen.
>
> Larry Crutcher
> Starlight Solar Power Systems
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 27, 2018, at 7:11 AM, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote:
>
> Snow on the array could be a very big problem with the heater load,
> inverter idle current and anything else that might be left on.
> Extended periods of heavy clouds can reduce power generation to be
> less than system's internal losses. It seems like a pretty big gamble
> to leave an expensive battery bank unattended, that can not go below
> freezing, and is dependent on array power to prevent freezing.
>
> If AGMs survive in this application, it might be better to stay with
> this technology.
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: offgridso...@sti.net "RE-wrenches"
> 
> To:"RE-wrenches" 
> Cc:
> Sent:Mon, 26 Feb 2018 10:36:29 -0800 (PST)
> Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank
>
>
> Hello Daniel,
>
> I will give this some thought. What lithium make? The ones I have
> looked at log the temperature for warranty so that might negate the value
a bit.
> The high temp is just as bad in your case here.
>
> Since this has been working well I am assuming snow on the panels is
> not an issue?
>
> Building a battery box that was cooled (small fan) from conditioned
> space is what I have done. The wall between the garage and living
> space is perfect. This won't help when the house is cold (unattended)
> much. It won't help if the house is allowed to get hot either.
>
> Some of the Lion batteries are actually listed for living space. The
> LG is. I don't do that with mine though. Hmmm
>
> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
> e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
> text 209 813 0060
>
>> Hello Wrenches, here is a fun one for you all.
>>
>>
>>
>> The client you all helped me with earlier this 

Re: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Daniel,

Quote "I have to plan out a new protective setup to try to ensure that if the 
temperatures drop and the battery bank hits LVD, that the array cannot just 
charge the battery back up on it's own."

Quote “...But adding controls to allow discharge, but not charge is likely a 
bit too much,…”

Quote “…best to just isolate the battery bank if below 32-35F..."

As I mentioned, these features are already built into the Li EMS system of 2 
brands that we sell and likely other brands. No need to reinvent it.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems


On Feb 28, 2018, at 9:15 AM, Daniel Young  wrote:

These issues are not lost on me for sure. I have to plan out a new
protective setup to try to ensure that if the temperatures drop and the
battery bank hits LVD, that the array cannot just charge the battery back up
on it's own. Possibly some sort of temperature dependent relay or shunt trip
breaker on the battery bank to ensure that below 35F the battery must be
manually warmed to resume operation, or the system waits until the battery
warms on it's own before allowing the CC's or even a generator to charge
them.

My understanding is that the lithium's can go below freezing easily, but
they just cannot be charged when below freezing. They can sit down to -5F if
not being charged, they can even be under discharge down to that in some
cases. But adding controls to allow discharge, but not charge is likely a
bit too much, best to just isolate the battery bank if below 32-35F in my
opinion, which is what I plan to try to accomplish.

Ideally someone is there to watch the batteries, but that simply is not an
option. And the client is not likely to want a new AGM bank. But they will
have to decide between the pro's and con's. All I can do is give them the
info, and the choice.

With Regards,

Daniel Young, 
NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

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Re: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank

[Daniel Young]

These issues are not lost on me for sure. I have to plan out a new
protective setup to try to ensure that if the temperatures drop and the
battery bank hits LVD, that the array cannot just charge the battery back up
on it's own. Possibly some sort of temperature dependent relay or shunt trip
breaker on the battery bank to ensure that below 35F the battery must be
manually warmed to resume operation, or the system waits until the battery
warms on it's own before allowing the CC's or even a generator to charge
them.

My understanding is that the lithium's can go below freezing easily, but
they just cannot be charged when below freezing. They can sit down to -5F if
not being charged, they can even be under discharge down to that in some
cases. But adding controls to allow discharge, but not charge is likely a
bit too much, best to just isolate the battery bank if below 32-35F in my
opinion, which is what I plan to try to accomplish.

Ideally someone is there to watch the batteries, but that simply is not an
option. And the client is not likely to want a new AGM bank. But they will
have to decide between the pro's and con's. All I can do is give them the
info, and the choice.

With Regards,

Daniel Young, 
NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2018 1:14 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank

The LG RESU series will trip it's breaker at around 10% Soc. It will require
a human unless the LVD on the inverter is set higher than the battery. Yes
Sir it is our responsibility to educate our users or have plane tickets (:

Will be installing the Discover battery soon into Xanbus.

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

> Hi Drake,
>
> I agree. Li-ion batteries, like lead batteries, should always have a 
> human overseer. This is a difficult reality to convey in our 
> set-it-forget it, automated world.
>
> One function of a Li-ion battery EMS or BMS is to prevent over discharge.
> Once any battery cell reaches the lower limit, the battery will turn off.
> For many systems, once charge current is again detected, the battery 
> will turn on. Some will not and require a user to turn the battery 
> back on. You can also install an external LVD device to stop power use at
a higher SoC.
>
> As wrenches, its our responsibility to know our product and educate 
> the customer. Too often, this does not happen.
>
> Larry Crutcher
> Starlight Solar Power Systems
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 27, 2018, at 7:11 AM, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote:
>
> Snow on the array could be a very big problem with the heater load, 
> inverter idle current and anything else that might be left on. 
> Extended periods of heavy clouds can reduce power generation to be 
> less than system's internal losses. It seems like a pretty big gamble 
> to leave an expensive battery bank unattended, that can not go below 
> freezing, and is dependent on array power to prevent freezing.
>
> If AGMs survive in this application, it might be better to stay with 
> this technology.
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: offgridso...@sti.net "RE-wrenches"
> 
> To:"RE-wrenches" 
> Cc:
> Sent:Mon, 26 Feb 2018 10:36:29 -0800 (PST)
> Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank
>
>
> Hello Daniel,
>
> I will give this some thought. What lithium make? The ones I have 
> looked at log the temperature for warranty so that might negate the value
a bit.
> The high temp is just as bad in your case here.
>
> Since this has been working well I am assuming snow on the panels is 
> not an issue?
>
> Building a battery box that was cooled (small fan) from conditioned 
> space is what I have done. The wall between the garage and living 
> space is perfect. This won't help when the house is cold (unattended) 
> much. It won't help if the house is allowed to get hot either.
>
> Some of the Lion batteries are actually listed for living space. The 
> LG is. I don't do that with mine though. Hmmm
>
> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
> e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
> text 209 813 0060
>
>> Hello Wrenches, here is a fun one for you all.
>>
>>
>>
>> The client you all helped me with earlier this year is now 
>> considering changing out their AGM off grid bank with a lithium 
>> battery bank before the next winter. I looked into this, as we have 
>> been eying the various lithium options for 2+yrs now, but not bit the 
>> bullet and really designed a bank into a system.
>>
>>
>>
>> The main issue I am trying to consider is this. The cabin is not 
>> occupied during most of