Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Again?

[Ray]

The link to review the first draft of the 2020 code is not working.  Do 
you have just the changes for 690?  I'd really like to submit some comments.


Thanks,

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 8/28/18 7:59 AM, Rebekah Hren wrote:

Hi all,
What you need to do now - to get your voices heard about rapid 
shutdown requirements-  is to make public comments on the first draft 
of the 2020 NEC. *_Comments are due AUGUST 30 at midnight!!! _*


Here is the link to a press release 
 with 
links to read the draft and input your comments:

https://www.necanet.org/about-us/news/news-release-archive/news/2018/07/02/nfpa-releases-2020-nec-first-draft-for-public-review

The process for changing the NEC is standardized by the NFPA and while 
it may not be perfect, it's what we've got!


Best,
Rebekah Hren

On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 6:50 AM cwarfel 
> wrote:


I like your solutions to this. Just sticking to rapid shutdown and
not the fire code, I think a lot of the problems with 690.12 could
be reduced if the maximum string voltage was 150 or even 250.  It
reduces the ampacity on a roof for a given power and I feel that
is more of a danger than array voltage that the Firefighters are
highly likely to avoid.

I still cannot get Outback Power to provide a corrected
installation manual or a start up procedure on the RSI/ICS
equipment. Two plus months and all I get are repeated vague or
incorrect information. One expert at OB said that they really
didn't deal much with Rapid Shutdown

I cannot install any more Outback on roofs at this time.

I'll see if it is ok to provide a link to an online petition to
change 690.12.


Chris



On 8/27/2018 2:13 PM, Ray wrote:


HI Chris;

As with all things bureaucratic,  good intentions can go awry
when actually implemented.  Years ago, I was one of the wrenches
pushing for some form of disconnect closer to the power source,
or the PV array.  I had no idea it would come back to bite us
small off grid folks so hard, though.  I'm not quite for
scrapping all of 690.12, but I do think it needs some serious
work. /In or on the building/ needs to be defined more clearly as
'on the roof'. Ground mounts need a clearer exemption. The PV
disconnect needs to be clearly defined and also clearly stated
that the Rapid disconnect system stops there.  The time limit
needs to be bumped up to 90 seconds: no one is going to throw the
switch and be hacking on the roof that fast.  The array voltage
should be 150 vdc, so that lower voltage off grid systems could
be exempt, and I really think 690.12 should only apply to larger
arrays (over 10kW) that have long exposed runs of conduit (over
10 yards) or that cover more than a certain percentage of the
total roof area.  If an array covers one face of the garage it
should be exempt, and if it covers half the total roof, then it
should have Rapid disconnect, for instance.  We need to be
sensible, do the fire fighters have a good spot to cut and vent
the roof without electrical hazards or not?

Its interesting how article 690 has morphed from being almost
entirely oriented towards off grid in 99 and 02, to now off grid
is barely even considered. Just look at the lack of thought when
they wrote the definitions for /DC to DC Converters/.  The solar
industry has been ready and willing to be thrown under the bus at
every turn.  I think its about time we started advocating for our
own self interests like all the other parties involved.  This
also means that us off grid folks need to be properly
represented, and off grid considered with all code changes.  I
think DC coupled PV should have its own section and be separated
from AC coupled PV.  The systems are so different that it doesn't
make sense to throw them into the same section.  The emergence of
article 706 is a step in the right direction.

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 8/23/18 5:31 PM, cwar...@entech-engineering.com
 wrote:


I think Rapid Shutdown should be scrapped professionally and
personally.  It was ill conceived and ill written.  Anyone
willing to join me in a petition to CMP 44 and the like, contact
me off list.

To your question directly, you have a ground mounted system and
you are not subject to 690.12 unless your conductors are "in or
on building" which i cannot seem to find what that actually
means. Exempted are buildings that are isolated only for the PV
system This is a big win for installers as almost everyone
installs systems like this... Right.    They used to have a
dimension to this, but I guess t

Re: [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace

[Jay]

Hi Dan

For larger uses, buying 55 gallon drums is usually best if you can’t get bulk 
delivery. 

Where I live, they deliver kerosene though. 

Jay



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace

[RE Ellison]

Here in northern New York fuel oil deliveries are a fact of life
They can put you in auto delivery or you can order as you need it 
Home heating oil = diesel with fewer taxes here
K1 kerosene is much cleaner, actually clear
In this state they dye it for tax reasons
Don’t get caught with it in a diesel truck tank ! The state will bend you over 
bad 

Easy to get delivered and use

Bob

> On Aug 29, 2018, at 2:00 PM, Dan Fink  wrote:
> 
> Do people fill up their tanks with 5 gallon jugs of it hauled home in the 
> back of their pickup trucks? That doesn't sound very safe. Or is there some 
> sort of kerosene delivery truck that makes the rounds?
> No such thing exists here on the Colorado Front Range that I know of.
> 
> Dan Fink
> Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: 
> ~ PV Installation Professional
> ~ Small Wind Installer
> Executive Director, Buckville Energy
> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
> NABCEP Associate
> 
> 970.672.4342
> 
>  
> 
> 
>> On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 10:25 AM RE Ellison  wrote:
>> If you relatively open floor plan I have been using the monitor heaters 
>> another one is the toyo brand
>> They get burning air from outside and exhaust outside warming the incoming 
>> air at the same time
>> They run on K1 kerosene and are very efficient 
>> They are a phantom load but what they save in fuel used over a standard 
>> furnace is very very considerable
>> Seems I remember that used to be 650 W to start for a few minutes and then 
>> 115 W to run
>> 
>> I have several customers using them with good results
>> Mine cut my fuel use by about 150 gallons a year to just about 275 gallons a 
>> year
>> No inspectors have a problem with them in this area.
>> Your inspector may vary, like mileage statements !
>> 
>> Bob Ellison
>> 
>>> On Aug 28, 2018, at 11:32 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Drake, look at home depot for the Empire brand of small wall furnaces. They 
>>> use zero power (old style thermo like a water heater) and can be legal as 
>>> primary source of heat for building code. They vent out a wall and are very 
>>> easy. Many of my clients use them to get legal and then use wood heating. 
>>> Good luck!
>>> 
>>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
>>> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
>>> text 209 813 0060
 On Thu, 23 Aug 2018 16:36:45 -0400, Drake 
  wrote:
 
 Hello Wrenches,
 
 What is the best choice for a propane, forced air furnace for an off grid 
 house? We would prefer one that doesn't have a phantom load, although the 
 transformer for the thermostat may not be avoidable. Low blower current 
 would be preferable. The furnace AC will be powered by a Magnum 4448 PAE.
 
 Thank you,
 
 Drake 
 
 Drake Chamberlin
 Athens Electric LLC
 OH License 44810
 CO License 3773
 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 
 740-448-7328
 http://athens-electric.com/
>>> -- 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace

[Dan Fink]

Do people fill up their tanks with 5 gallon jugs of it hauled home in the
back of their pickup trucks? That doesn't sound very safe. Or is there some
sort of kerosene delivery truck that makes the rounds?
No such thing exists here on the Colorado Front Range that I know of.

Dan Fink
Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
Executive Director, Buckville Energy
NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
NABCEP Associate

970.672.4342




On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 10:25 AM RE Ellison  wrote:

> If you relatively open floor plan I have been using the monitor heaters
> another one is the toyo brand
> They get burning air from outside and exhaust outside warming the incoming
> air at the same time
> They run on K1 kerosene and are very efficient
> They are a phantom load but what they save in fuel used over a standard
> furnace is very very considerable
> Seems I remember that used to be 650 W to start for a few minutes and then
> 115 W to run
>
> I have several customers using them with good results
> Mine cut my fuel use by about 150 gallons a year to just about 275 gallons
> a year
> No inspectors have a problem with them in this area.
> Your inspector may vary, like mileage statements !
>
> Bob Ellison
>
> On Aug 28, 2018, at 11:32 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <
> offgridso...@sti.net> wrote:
>
> Drake, look at home depot for the Empire brand of small wall furnaces.
> They use zero power (old style thermo like a water heater) and can be legal
> as primary source of heat for building code. They vent out a wall and are
> very easy. Many of my clients use them to get legal and then use wood
> heating. Good luck!
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
> On Thu, 23 Aug 2018 16:36:45 -0400, Drake <
> drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org> wrote:
>
> Hello Wrenches,
>
> What is the best choice for a propane, forced air furnace for an off grid
> house? We would prefer one that doesn't have a phantom load, although the
> transformer for the thermostat may not be avoidable. Low blower current
> would be preferable. The furnace AC will be powered by a Magnum 4448 PAE.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Drake
>
> Drake Chamberlin
>
>
>
>
>
> *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified
> Solar PV 740-448-7328 *http://athens-electric.com/
>
> --
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace

[Drake]

That sounds like the ticket!

At 11:32 AM 8/28/2018, you wrote:

Drake, look at home depot for the Empire brand of small wall 
furnaces. They use zero power (old style thermo like a water heater) 
and can be legal as primary source of heat for building code. They 
vent out a wall and are very easy. Many of my clients use them to 
get legal and then use wood heating. Good luck!


Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060
On Thu, 23 Aug 2018 16:36:45 -0400, Drake 
 wrote:

Hello Wrenches,

What is the best choice for a propane, forced air furnace for an 
off grid house? We would prefer one that doesn't have a phantom 
load, although the transformer for the thermostat may not be 
avoidable. Low blower current would be preferable. The furnace AC 
will be powered by a Magnum 4448 PAE.


Thank you,

Drake

Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric LLC
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP Certified Solar PV
740-448-7328
http://athens-electric.com/

--


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