Re: [RE-wrenches] the history of three Mate's

[Kirk Herander]

YEP, you need a hub 10.3 to work properly with a Mate 3S. And the hub 10 
jumpers may need to be reconfigered from the factory positions.
On 4/28/2020 12:09:13 PM, Mac Lewis  wrote:
What version Hub?

On Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 9:55 AM Jerry Shafer mailto:jerrysgarag...@gmail.com]> wrote:

You may have a stacking error, l would verify that first
Jerry

On Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 8:11 AM Chris Schaefer mailto:ch...@solarandwindfx.com]> wrote:

G'Day All,

Recently ran into an issue on a system installed by others. It's an Outback 
FW1000 circa 2015 with a twin stack of VFX3648's. The system is offgrid and 
charged solely by a 15kw propane fired generator with plenty of hours on it. 
I'll be adding PV to it in the coming weeks. The system originally came with a 
Mate Oval using the AGS. In late 2018 a second installer replaced the oval with 
a Mate3, serial# M307410. The system has been working with the AGS feature 
flawlessly.

A couple weeks back I received a call because the Mate3 had locked up. So I 
arrived last week with a new Mate3s in hand, serial# MA2007F0100150 not a 
Mate3. I removed the SD card from the Mate3 and installed it to the Mate3s. It 
appeared that someone had saved a profile so I loaded it into the newest 
Mate3s. After reviewing the settings I was satisfied with them and fired 
everything up and then manually started the genny. After an hour or so I shut 
down the genny again manually. The AC power went out and on the Mate3s I 
received an event, "AC Out shorted Error". This seemed odd as there were no 
other changes to the system other than to swap out of the Mate. Tried this 
several times with the same results. Next I decided to turn off the home's main 
breaker @ the SEP. Did not get any error's at the Mate3s. Next I turned on the 
200A main @ the SEP. Still good. Then one by one all the breakers in the SEP. 
No error's and the power is back on. Fired up the genny, then turned it off and 
the same error reappears.

Here's where it gets really interesting. The client still had the old oval Mate 
lying around so just for fun I reinstalled it and everything ran perfectly. Say 
what?!?! At this point I'm leaning to either an incompatibility issue with the 
new Mate3s and the older VFX inverters or just a bad Mate3s. What say you?

Thanks,
Christopher-
Chris Schaefer’s
[http:www.solarandwindfx.com]
Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870
5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424
www.solarandwindfx.com [http://www.solarandwindfx.com] ~ E-mail: 
ch...@solarandwindfx.com [mailto:ch...@solarandwindfx.com]

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[RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance

[Corey Shalanski]

Now that 690.12 of the *NEC* 2017 has been in effect for several years, I
am curious how designers and installers are meeting the associated
requirements with string inverter-based systems (*not* considering
microinverters or DC optimizers). I am generally a fan of the KISS
principle, and as best I can determine the *Tigo* TS4-F device is one of
the simplest options currently available on the market. What are others
finding?

I'd love to hear about favored options for complying with rapid shutdown.
Any success stories? or better yet, any early failures?

--
Corey Shalanski
Jah Light Solar
Portland, Jamaica
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback EQ not holding voltage

[jay]

Hi Dave,

Only thing I would check is to see if lowering the eq by 1 volt changes 
anything. IE the batteries are just struggling to keep up. 

But the CC should tell you what mode it’s in right? IE is it regulating or is 
it full power. Either in the menus or just looking at VMP/watts 

If it’s regulating then it’s on the OB side 

If it’s max power then it’s on the battery side 

Jay Peltz

> On Apr 28, 2020, at 6:50 AM, Dave Tedeyan  wrote:
> 
> Hi All, 
> 
> I've got an outback system (Radian 8048A, 2 FM80, 16 Trojan L16RE-B) where 
> when the customer equalizes, the batteries hover right around the EQ voltage, 
> but will often dip to 0.1v less. Because of this, the EQ timer does not count 
> down properly, and so left to its own devices the system would equalize for 
> way longer than it should, potentially forever. This will happen when doing 
> an EQ from the solar on a bright sunny day, or the generator, or both. The 
> customer can manually keep track of the time and manually stop the EQ after 3 
> hours, but that is not ideal. Has anyone dealt with this before and have any 
> suggestions on how they fixed it? 
> 
> This system is 3-4 years old, and the issue only started in the past year or 
> so.
> 
> Cheers, 
> Dave
> 
> Dave Tedeyan, PE
> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC
> 
> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850
> o. 607.277.1118 x121  f. 607.277.2119
> www.taitem.com 
> 
> Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design
> Certified B-Corporation since 2013
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback EQ not holding voltage

[Lones Tuss]

Hi All
On OutBack inverters the EQ process is not temp comped.
The eq timer will not count down until the voltage set point is achieved.
You comment on the issue being somewhat intermittent is interesting.
Could there be a loose cable, bad crimp or corroded connection somewhere in the 
system?
Sorry but nothing jumps out at me.
Someone mentioned specific gravity.
Are the SG readings widely separated?


From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of Dave 
Tedeyan
Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2020 8:17 AM
To: offgridso...@sti.net; RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback EQ not holding voltage

Brian,
I had tried lowering the EQ voltage by 0.4V. The batteries still get up to the 
EQ voltage, but then fluctuate right at or 0.1V below.

Dave,
The EQ countdown timer does not count down when the battery voltage is below 
the EQ setpoint (even if by 0.1V). And since the timer never gets to 0, the 
system just stays in EQ.

Also, we have found that the issue is somewhat intermittent. At one point 
Outback had me reset the CC and FNDC back to factory settings and reprogram 
them. It seemed that it helped, but then a month or two later it showed the 
same issue. So this does not happen with every EQ cycle, it just happens for 
most of them.

I also received another suggestion that the battery bank has a couple bad cells 
which will lead to higher temps and so with the temperature compensation the 
bank is just not getting to a high enough voltage.

Cheers,
Dave

Dave Tedeyan, PE
Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC
[https://www.taitem.com/signatures/logo.png]
110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850
o. 607.277.1118 x121  f. 607.277.2119
www.taitem.com

Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design
Certified B-Corporation since 2013


On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 11:08 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
mailto:offgridso...@sti.net>> wrote:

Does not sound right to me. Usually both Outback and Schneider protect against 
uncontrolled EQ time and end EQ.

I think I would remove the network after the battery is full and test one 
controller at a time. Might have been damaged by lightning or gen glitching. 
Since you say it does this from the inverter charger on genset (only no fm80's) 
is even weirder. Eliminate the network.

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar

"we go where powerlines don't"

http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/

e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net

text 209 813 0060

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 07:00:21 -0700, Brian Mehalic 
mailto:br...@solarenergy.org>> wrote:
Sorry you had already answered the first two questions :) What about the others?
Brian


On Apr 28, 2020, at 6:50 AM, Dave Tedeyan 
mailto:dtede...@taitem.com>> wrote:
Hi All,

I've got an outback system (Radian 8048A, 2 FM80, 16 Trojan L16RE-B) where when 
the customer equalizes, the batteries hover right around the EQ voltage, but 
will often dip to 0.1v less. Because of this, the EQ timer does not count down 
properly, and so left to its own devices the system would equalize for way 
longer than it should, potentially forever. This will happen when doing an EQ 
from the solar on a bright sunny day, or the generator, or both. The customer 
can manually keep track of the time and manually stop the EQ after 3 hours, but 
that is not ideal. Has anyone dealt with this before and have any suggestions 
on how they fixed it?

This system is 3-4 years old, and the issue only started in the past year or so.

Cheers,
Dave

Dave Tedeyan, PE
Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC
[cid:image001.gif@01D61D59.20569B90]
110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850
o. 607.277.1118 x121  f. 607.277.2119
www.taitem.com

Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design
Certified B-Corporation since 2013
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback EQ not holding voltage

[Howie Michaelson]

I would tend to agree with Ray's analysis, with one question:

   - Does the Eq timer reset to 0 when the voltage dips?  It should
   basically hold the time the batteries were at Eq voltage when it drops
   below, sort of putting the EQ timer on hold until the voltage comes back
   up.  So eventually given enough sun and long enough day, or long enough
   generator run time, the mate should still report that equalization was
   reached.
   - If it doesn't reach equalization do that even though the battery
   voltage is being attained for enough time, then it might suggest a Mate
   issue...

Howie

On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 2:12 PM Ray  wrote:

> I would add to the chorus that it probably is a battery issue.  Here are
> the symptoms that lead to that conclusion:
>
> A) it started occurring recently,
> B) it is somewhat intermittent,
> C) the system has aging L 16s  (failures at 4 to 5 years are pretty
> common)
> D) they are the Trojan RE series  (dead cells at less than 2 years has
> been documented several times on this list)
> E) the customer is trying to equalize regularly. (which causes over
> heating, and accelerates cell failures)
>
> Besides checking battery voltages, an infared camera can quickly show over
> heating, bad cells.  Also, I would advise the customer to only equalize
> when the batteries are unequal, based on specific gravity readings.
>
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
>
> On 4/28/20 12:20 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote:
>
> Steve and Jerry,
> Thanks for the suggestions. I'll have to take a closer look at the battery
> bank next time I am out there.
> The solar setup is 4 strings of 3 kyocera 270's into each charge
> controller. So that is almost 65A @50V coming out of each charge controller
> for bulk. The parallel battery strings all have the same length of premade
> cable, so current should be balanced (unless there is a dead cell or two in
> there...).
> Cheers,
> Dave
>
> *Dave Tedeyan, PE*
> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC
>
> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850
> o. *607.277.1118 x121*  f. 607.277.2119
> www.taitem.com
>
> Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design
> Certified B-Corporation since 2013
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 11:52 AM Jerry Shafer 
> wrote:
>
>> Sounds like a battery issue at first glance, as you EQ a battery it gets
>> warm or even hot and this will effect ability to charge. If e en one of the
>> L-16 is not exactly the same voltage you will not get to EQ untill another
>> battery over voltages to show your overall volts. Need to look at each
>> battery volts under this charge condition. Also if you have a battery
>> acting up be very careful working around them.
>> Jerry
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 6:50 AM Dave Tedeyan  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I've got an outback system (Radian 8048A, 2 FM80, 16 Trojan L16RE-B)
>>> where when the customer equalizes, the batteries hover right around the EQ
>>> voltage, but will often dip to 0.1v less. Because of this, the EQ timer
>>> does not count down properly, and so left to its own devices the system
>>> would equalize for way longer than it should, potentially forever. This
>>> will happen when doing an EQ from the solar on a bright sunny day, or the
>>> generator, or both. The customer can manually keep track of the time and
>>> manually stop the EQ after 3 hours, but that is not ideal. Has anyone dealt
>>> with this before and have any suggestions on how they fixed it?
>>>
>>> This system is 3-4 years old, and the issue only started in the past
>>> year or so.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> *Dave Tedeyan, PE*
>>> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC
>>>
>>> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850
>>> o. *607.277.1118 x121*  f. 607.277.2119
>>> www.taitem.com
>>>
>>> Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design
>>> Certified B-Corporation since 2013
>>> ___
>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>>
>>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback EQ not holding voltage

[Ray]

I would add to the chorus that it probably is a battery issue. Here are 
the symptoms that lead to that conclusion:


A) it started occurring recently,
B) it is somewhat intermittent,
C) the system has aging L 16s  (failures at 4 to 5 years are pretty  common)
D) they are the Trojan RE series  (dead cells at less than 2 years has 
been documented several times on this list)
E) the customer is trying to equalize regularly. (which causes over 
heating, and accelerates cell failures)


Besides checking battery voltages, an infared camera can quickly show 
over heating, bad cells.  Also, I would advise the customer to only 
equalize when the batteries are unequal, based on specific gravity readings.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 4/28/20 12:20 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote:

Steve and Jerry,
Thanks for the suggestions. I'll have to take a closer look at the 
battery bank next time I am out there.
The solar setup is 4 strings of 3 kyocera 270's into each charge 
controller. So that is almost 65A @50V coming out of each charge 
controller for bulk. The parallel battery strings all have the same 
length of premade cable, so current should be balanced (unless there 
is a dead cell or two in there...).

Cheers,
Dave

*Dave Tedeyan, PE*
Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC

110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850
o. _607.277.1118 x121_  f. 607.277.2119
www.taitem.com 

Solar •Sustainability • Energy • Design
Certified B-Corporation since 2013


On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 11:52 AM Jerry Shafer 
mailto:jerrysgarag...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Sounds like a battery issue at first glance, as you EQ a battery
it gets warm or even hot and this will effect ability to charge.
If e en one of the L-16 is not exactly the same voltage you will
not get to EQ untill another battery over voltages to show your
overall volts. Need to look at each battery volts under this
charge condition. Also if you have a battery acting up be very
careful working around them.
Jerry

On Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 6:50 AM Dave Tedeyan mailto:dtede...@taitem.com>> wrote:

Hi All,

I've got an outback system (Radian 8048A, 2 FM80, 16 Trojan
L16RE-B) where when the customer equalizes, the batteries
hover right around the EQ voltage, but will often dip to 0.1v
less. Because of this, the EQ timer does not count down
properly, and so left to its own devices the system would
equalize for way longer than it should, potentially forever.
This will happen when doing an EQ from the solar on a bright
sunny day, or the generator, or both. The customer can
manually keep track of the time and manually stop the EQ after
3 hours, but that is not ideal. Has anyone dealt with this
before and have any suggestions on how they fixed it?

This system is 3-4 years old, and the issue only started in
the past year or so.

Cheers,
Dave

*Dave Tedeyan, PE*
Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC

110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850
o. _607.277.1118 x121_  f. 607.277.2119
www.taitem.com 

Solar •Sustainability • Energy • Design
Certified B-Corporation since 2013
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback EQ not holding voltage

[Dave Tedeyan]

Steve and Jerry,
Thanks for the suggestions. I'll have to take a closer look at the battery
bank next time I am out there.
The solar setup is 4 strings of 3 kyocera 270's into each charge
controller. So that is almost 65A @50V coming out of each charge controller
for bulk. The parallel battery strings all have the same length of premade
cable, so current should be balanced (unless there is a dead cell or two in
there...).
Cheers,
Dave

*Dave Tedeyan, PE*
Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC

110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850
o. *607.277.1118 x121*  f. 607.277.2119
www.taitem.com

Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design
Certified B-Corporation since 2013


On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 11:52 AM Jerry Shafer 
wrote:

> Sounds like a battery issue at first glance, as you EQ a battery it gets
> warm or even hot and this will effect ability to charge. If e en one of the
> L-16 is not exactly the same voltage you will not get to EQ untill another
> battery over voltages to show your overall volts. Need to look at each
> battery volts under this charge condition. Also if you have a battery
> acting up be very careful working around them.
> Jerry
>
> On Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 6:50 AM Dave Tedeyan  wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I've got an outback system (Radian 8048A, 2 FM80, 16 Trojan L16RE-B)
>> where when the customer equalizes, the batteries hover right around the EQ
>> voltage, but will often dip to 0.1v less. Because of this, the EQ timer
>> does not count down properly, and so left to its own devices the system
>> would equalize for way longer than it should, potentially forever. This
>> will happen when doing an EQ from the solar on a bright sunny day, or the
>> generator, or both. The customer can manually keep track of the time and
>> manually stop the EQ after 3 hours, but that is not ideal. Has anyone dealt
>> with this before and have any suggestions on how they fixed it?
>>
>> This system is 3-4 years old, and the issue only started in the past year
>> or so.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Dave
>>
>> *Dave Tedeyan, PE*
>> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC
>>
>> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850
>> o. *607.277.1118 x121*  f. 607.277.2119
>> www.taitem.com
>>
>> Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design
>> Certified B-Corporation since 2013
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] the history of three Mate's

[Mac Lewis]

What version Hub?

On Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 9:55 AM Jerry Shafer  wrote:

> You may have a stacking error, l would verify that first
> Jerry
>
> On Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 8:11 AM Chris Schaefer 
> wrote:
>
>> G'Day All,
>>
>> Recently ran into an issue on a system installed by others. It's an
>> Outback FW1000 circa 2015 with a twin stack of VFX3648's. The system is
>> offgrid and charged solely by a 15kw propane fired generator with plenty of
>> hours on it. I'll be adding PV to it in the coming weeks. The system
>> originally came with a Mate Oval using the AGS. In late 2018 a second
>> installer replaced the oval with a Mate3, serial#  M307410. The system has
>> been working with the AGS feature flawlessly.
>>
>> A couple weeks back I received a call because the Mate3 had locked up. So
>> I arrived last week with a new Mate3s in hand, serial# MA2007F0100150 not a
>> Mate3. I removed the SD card from the Mate3 and installed it to the Mate3s.
>> It appeared that someone had saved a profile so I loaded it into the newest
>> Mate3s. After reviewing the settings I was satisfied with them and fired
>> everything up and then manually started the genny. After an hour or so I
>> shut down the genny again manually. The AC power went out and on the Mate3s
>> I received an event, "AC Out shorted Error". This seemed odd as there were
>> no other changes to the system other than to swap out of the Mate. Tried
>> this several times with the same results. Next I decided to turn off the
>> home's main breaker @ the SEP. Did not get any error's at the Mate3s. Next
>> I turned on the 200A main @ the SEP. Still good. Then one by one all the
>> breakers in the SEP. No error's and the power is back on. Fired up the
>> genny, then turned it off and the same error reappears.
>>
>> Here's where it gets really interesting. The client still had the old
>> oval Mate lying around so just for fun I reinstalled it and everything ran
>> perfectly. Say what?!?! At this point I'm leaning to either an
>> incompatibility issue with the new Mate3s and the older VFX inverters or
>> just a bad Mate3s. What say you?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Christopher-
>>
>> Chris Schaefer’s
>> 
>>
>> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 *
>> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com
>>  ~ E-mail: ch...@solarandwindfx.com
>> *
>>
>>
>> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said,
>> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are
>> willing to work and give to those who would not."
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Re: [RE-wrenches] the history of three Mate's

[Jerry Shafer]

You may have a stacking error, l would verify that first
Jerry

On Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 8:11 AM Chris Schaefer 
wrote:

> G'Day All,
>
> Recently ran into an issue on a system installed by others. It's an
> Outback FW1000 circa 2015 with a twin stack of VFX3648's. The system is
> offgrid and charged solely by a 15kw propane fired generator with plenty of
> hours on it. I'll be adding PV to it in the coming weeks. The system
> originally came with a Mate Oval using the AGS. In late 2018 a second
> installer replaced the oval with a Mate3, serial#  M307410. The system has
> been working with the AGS feature flawlessly.
>
> A couple weeks back I received a call because the Mate3 had locked up. So
> I arrived last week with a new Mate3s in hand, serial# MA2007F0100150 not a
> Mate3. I removed the SD card from the Mate3 and installed it to the Mate3s.
> It appeared that someone had saved a profile so I loaded it into the newest
> Mate3s. After reviewing the settings I was satisfied with them and fired
> everything up and then manually started the genny. After an hour or so I
> shut down the genny again manually. The AC power went out and on the Mate3s
> I received an event, "AC Out shorted Error". This seemed odd as there were
> no other changes to the system other than to swap out of the Mate. Tried
> this several times with the same results. Next I decided to turn off the
> home's main breaker @ the SEP. Did not get any error's at the Mate3s. Next
> I turned on the 200A main @ the SEP. Still good. Then one by one all the
> breakers in the SEP. No error's and the power is back on. Fired up the
> genny, then turned it off and the same error reappears.
>
> Here's where it gets really interesting. The client still had the old oval
> Mate lying around so just for fun I reinstalled it and everything ran
> perfectly. Say what?!?! At this point I'm leaning to either an
> incompatibility issue with the new Mate3s and the older VFX inverters or
> just a bad Mate3s. What say you?
>
> Thanks,
> Christopher-
>
> Chris Schaefer’s
> 
>
> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 *
> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com
>  ~ E-mail: ch...@solarandwindfx.com
> *
>
>
> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said,
> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are
> willing to work and give to those who would not."
> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback EQ not holding voltage

[Steve Higgins]

I know the old FX's didn't temp compensate in EQ mode but the charge
controllers do... I know... that is what I said when I learned this years
ago!

I don't think the Radians observe temp compensation while in EQ either...
That would be a better question for Lones Tuss... You out there Lones?

Instead of using global EQ try to EQ only with the Solar or the
Inverter...BTW how much solar is connected to the FM's and how much
current going to the batteries while in the bulk stage?   Also is this
current balanced between the parallel strings?

Also, you should do an eq after a full bulk/absorb stage can/have you
finished a full buik absorb cycle before starting the EQ?  The best way to
do this is to start the generator and run it manually let it run until you
are in the float or silent mode... then at that time start the EQ...

I've never been a fan of EQ'ing batteries!  There are just so many things
that can and will go wrong when EQ'ing.  What's going on within the battery
is a chemical reaction attempting to force it by cooking the batteries
often does not end well.

I have found that if you charge to what is supposed to be a full charge
then you discharge 10-20% then charge back to full 2-3 times a day and you
repeat this for a week or two this often will recover unbalanced cells
faster and keep the batteries cooler (Causing Less overall Damage) than
EQ'ing the battery bank.

Lastly, what Dave has said, yes a dead cell, either an open or short can
cause the EQ to never be fully met.Check the Voltage of the batteries
at rest and at load over a period of time usually 2-4 hours @ a C10
discharge current... If you notice that the voltages drift more than .4 to
.6 vdc (6 Volt L16), EQ'ing probably isn't going to help.


 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
t +1.902.597.4020  m +1.206.790.5840
f +1.902.597.8447  e st...@surrette.com
<#SignatureSanitizer_SafeHtmlFilter_> 
 






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On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 8:17 AM Dave Tedeyan  wrote:

> Brian,
> I had tried lowering the EQ voltage by 0.4V. The batteries still get up to
> the EQ voltage, but then fluctuate right at or 0.1V below.
>
> Dave,
> The EQ countdown timer does not count down when the battery voltage is
> below the EQ setpoint (even if by 0.1V). And since the timer never gets to
> 0, the system just stays in EQ.
>
> Also, we have found that the issue is somewhat intermittent. At one point
> Outback had me reset the CC and FNDC back to factory settings and reprogram
> them. It seemed that it helped, but then a month or two later it showed the
> same issue. So this does not happen with every EQ cycle, it just happens
> for most of them.
>
> I also received another suggestion that the battery bank has a couple bad
> cells which will lead to higher temps and so with the temperature
> compensation the bank is just not getting to a high enough voltage.
>
> Cheers,
> Dave
>
> *Dave Tedeyan, PE*
> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC
>
> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850
> o. *607.277.1118 x121*  f. 607.277.2119
> www.taitem.com
>
> Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design
> Certified B-Corporation since 2013
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 11:08 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <
> offgridso...@sti.net> wrote:
>
>> Does not sound right to me. Usually both Outback and Schneider protect
>> against uncontrolled EQ time and end EQ.
>>
>> I think I would remove the network after the battery is full and test one
>> controller at a time. Might have been damaged by lightning or gen
>> glitching. Sinc

Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback EQ not holding voltage

[Jerry Shafer]

Sounds like a battery issue at first glance, as you EQ a battery it gets
warm or even hot and this will effect ability to charge. If e en one of the
L-16 is not exactly the same voltage you will not get to EQ untill another
battery over voltages to show your overall volts. Need to look at each
battery volts under this charge condition. Also if you have a battery
acting up be very careful working around them.
Jerry

On Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 6:50 AM Dave Tedeyan  wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I've got an outback system (Radian 8048A, 2 FM80, 16 Trojan L16RE-B) where
> when the customer equalizes, the batteries hover right around the EQ
> voltage, but will often dip to 0.1v less. Because of this, the EQ timer
> does not count down properly, and so left to its own devices the system
> would equalize for way longer than it should, potentially forever. This
> will happen when doing an EQ from the solar on a bright sunny day, or the
> generator, or both. The customer can manually keep track of the time and
> manually stop the EQ after 3 hours, but that is not ideal. Has anyone dealt
> with this before and have any suggestions on how they fixed it?
>
> This system is 3-4 years old, and the issue only started in the past year
> or so.
>
> Cheers,
> Dave
>
> *Dave Tedeyan, PE*
> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC
>
> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850
> o. *607.277.1118 x121*  f. 607.277.2119
> www.taitem.com
>
> Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design
> Certified B-Corporation since 2013
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback EQ not holding voltage

[Dave Tedeyan]

Brian,
I had tried lowering the EQ voltage by 0.4V. The batteries still get up to
the EQ voltage, but then fluctuate right at or 0.1V below.

Dave,
The EQ countdown timer does not count down when the battery voltage is
below the EQ setpoint (even if by 0.1V). And since the timer never gets to
0, the system just stays in EQ.

Also, we have found that the issue is somewhat intermittent. At one point
Outback had me reset the CC and FNDC back to factory settings and reprogram
them. It seemed that it helped, but then a month or two later it showed the
same issue. So this does not happen with every EQ cycle, it just happens
for most of them.

I also received another suggestion that the battery bank has a couple bad
cells which will lead to higher temps and so with the temperature
compensation the bank is just not getting to a high enough voltage.

Cheers,
Dave

*Dave Tedeyan, PE*
Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC

110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850
o. *607.277.1118 x121*  f. 607.277.2119
www.taitem.com

Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design
Certified B-Corporation since 2013


On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 11:08 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <
offgridso...@sti.net> wrote:

> Does not sound right to me. Usually both Outback and Schneider protect
> against uncontrolled EQ time and end EQ.
>
> I think I would remove the network after the battery is full and test one
> controller at a time. Might have been damaged by lightning or gen
> glitching. Since you say it does this from the inverter charger on genset
> (only no fm80's) is even weirder. Eliminate the network.
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
> On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 07:00:21 -0700, Brian Mehalic 
> wrote:
>
> Sorry you had already answered the first two questions :) What about the
> others?
>
> Brian
>
> On Apr 28, 2020, at 6:50 AM, Dave Tedeyan  wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> I've got an outback system (Radian 8048A, 2 FM80, 16 Trojan L16RE-B) where
> when the customer equalizes, the batteries hover right around the EQ
> voltage, but will often dip to 0.1v less. Because of this, the EQ timer
> does not count down properly, and so left to its own devices the system
> would equalize for way longer than it should, potentially forever. This
> will happen when doing an EQ from the solar on a bright sunny day, or the
> generator, or both. The customer can manually keep track of the time and
> manually stop the EQ after 3 hours, but that is not ideal. Has anyone dealt
> with this before and have any suggestions on how they fixed it?
>
> This system is 3-4 years old, and the issue only started in the past year
> or so.
>
> Cheers,
> Dave
>
> *Dave Tedeyan, PE*
> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC
>
> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850
> o. 607.277.1118 x121  f. 607.277.2119
> www.taitem.com
>
> Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design
> Certified B-Corporation since 2013
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
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[RE-wrenches] the history of three Mate's

[Chris Schaefer]

G'Day All,

Recently ran into an issue on a system installed by others. It's an Outback
FW1000 circa 2015 with a twin stack of VFX3648's. The system is offgrid and
charged solely by a 15kw propane fired generator with plenty of hours on
it. I'll be adding PV to it in the coming weeks. The system originally
came with a Mate Oval using the AGS. In late 2018 a second installer
replaced the oval with a Mate3, serial#  M307410. The system has been
working with the AGS feature flawlessly.

A couple weeks back I received a call because the Mate3 had locked up. So I
arrived last week with a new Mate3s in hand, serial# MA2007F0100150 not a
Mate3. I removed the SD card from the Mate3 and installed it to the Mate3s.
It appeared that someone had saved a profile so I loaded it into the newest
Mate3s. After reviewing the settings I was satisfied with them and fired
everything up and then manually started the genny. After an hour or so I
shut down the genny again manually. The AC power went out and on the Mate3s
I received an event, "AC Out shorted Error". This seemed odd as there were
no other changes to the system other than to swap out of the Mate. Tried
this several times with the same results. Next I decided to turn off the
home's main breaker @ the SEP. Did not get any error's at the Mate3s. Next
I turned on the 200A main @ the SEP. Still good. Then one by one all the
breakers in the SEP. No error's and the power is back on. Fired up the
genny, then turned it off and the same error reappears.

Here's where it gets really interesting. The client still had the old oval
Mate lying around so just for fun I reinstalled it and everything ran
perfectly. Say what?!?! At this point I'm leaning to either an
incompatibility issue with the new Mate3s and the older VFX inverters or
just a bad Mate3s. What say you?

Thanks,
Christopher-

Chris Schaefer’s


*Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 *
*5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com
 ~ E-mail: ch...@solarandwindfx.com
*


Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said,
"democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are
willing to work and give to those who would not."
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback EQ not holding voltage

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

Does not sound right to me. Usually both Outback and Schneider protect
against uncontrolled EQ time and end EQ. 

I think I would remove the
network after the battery is full and test one controller at a time. Might
have been damaged by lightning or gen glitching. Since you say it does this
from the inverter charger on genset (only no fm80's) is even weirder.
Eliminate the network.  
Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where
powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1]
e-mail
offgridso...@sti.net [2]
text 209 813 0060

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 07:00:21
-0700, Brian Mehalic  wrote: Sorry you had already answered the first two
questions :) What about the others?

 Brian 
 On Apr 28, 2020, at 6:50 AM,
Dave Tedeyan  wrote:

Hi All,   I've got an outback system (Radian
8048A, 2 FM80, 16 Trojan L16RE-B) where when the customer equalizes, the
batteries hover right around the EQ voltage, but will often dip to 0.1v
less. Because of this, the EQ timer does not count down properly, and so
left to its own devices the system would equalize for way longer than it
should, potentially forever. This will happen when doing an EQ from the
solar on a bright sunny day, or the generator, or both. The customer can
manually keep track of the time and manually stop the EQ after 3 hours, but
that is not ideal. Has anyone dealt with this before and have any
suggestions on how they fixed it?This system is 3-4 years old, and the
issue only started in the past year or so.   Cheers,  Dave 
DAVE TEDEYAN, PE Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC 110 South Albany
Street | Ithaca, NY 14850 o. 607.277.1118 x121 f. 607.277.2119
www.taitem.com [3]   Solar * Sustainability * Energy * Design Certified
B-Corporation since 2013
 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback EQ not holding voltage

[Brian Mehalic]

Sorry you had already answered the first two questions :) What about the others?

Brian

> On Apr 28, 2020, at 6:50 AM, Dave Tedeyan  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi All, 
> 
> I've got an outback system (Radian 8048A, 2 FM80, 16 Trojan L16RE-B) where 
> when the customer equalizes, the batteries hover right around the EQ voltage, 
> but will often dip to 0.1v less. Because of this, the EQ timer does not count 
> down properly, and so left to its own devices the system would equalize for 
> way longer than it should, potentially forever. This will happen when doing 
> an EQ from the solar on a bright sunny day, or the generator, or both. The 
> customer can manually keep track of the time and manually stop the EQ after 3 
> hours, but that is not ideal. Has anyone dealt with this before and have any 
> suggestions on how they fixed it? 
> 
> This system is 3-4 years old, and the issue only started in the past year or 
> so.
> 
> Cheers, 
> Dave
> 
> Dave Tedeyan, PE
> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC
> 
> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850
> o. 607.277.1118 x121  f. 607.277.2119
> www.taitem.com
> 
> Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design
> Certified B-Corporation since 2013
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback EQ not holding voltage

[Brian Mehalic]

What’s the capacity of the battery bank? And the size of the charging sources? 
What’s your EQ voltage? Have you tried a lower EQ voltage setting to see if it 
does the same thing?

Brian

> On Apr 28, 2020, at 6:50 AM, Dave Tedeyan  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi All, 
> 
> I've got an outback system (Radian 8048A, 2 FM80, 16 Trojan L16RE-B) where 
> when the customer equalizes, the batteries hover right around the EQ voltage, 
> but will often dip to 0.1v less. Because of this, the EQ timer does not count 
> down properly, and so left to its own devices the system would equalize for 
> way longer than it should, potentially forever. This will happen when doing 
> an EQ from the solar on a bright sunny day, or the generator, or both. The 
> customer can manually keep track of the time and manually stop the EQ after 3 
> hours, but that is not ideal. Has anyone dealt with this before and have any 
> suggestions on how they fixed it? 
> 
> This system is 3-4 years old, and the issue only started in the past year or 
> so.
> 
> Cheers, 
> Dave
> 
> Dave Tedeyan, PE
> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC
> 
> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850
> o. 607.277.1118 x121  f. 607.277.2119
> www.taitem.com
> 
> Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design
> Certified B-Corporation since 2013
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
> 
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> 
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[RE-wrenches] Outback EQ not holding voltage

[Dave Tedeyan]

Hi All,

I've got an outback system (Radian 8048A, 2 FM80, 16 Trojan L16RE-B) where
when the customer equalizes, the batteries hover right around the EQ
voltage, but will often dip to 0.1v less. Because of this, the EQ timer
does not count down properly, and so left to its own devices the system
would equalize for way longer than it should, potentially forever. This
will happen when doing an EQ from the solar on a bright sunny day, or the
generator, or both. The customer can manually keep track of the time and
manually stop the EQ after 3 hours, but that is not ideal. Has anyone dealt
with this before and have any suggestions on how they fixed it?

This system is 3-4 years old, and the issue only started in the past year
or so.

Cheers,
Dave

*Dave Tedeyan, PE*
Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC

110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850
o. *607.277.1118 x121*  f. 607.277.2119
www.taitem.com

Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design
Certified B-Corporation since 2013
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