Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator and AC coupling on a Sol-Ark

[drake . chamberlin]

You can even buy a kit.
https://www.solar-electric.com/outback-power-gs-ac-gen-kit-generator-back-up-kit.html
This provides an enclosure for the contactor. 


---

On 2021-05-04 16:03, Jason Szumlanski wrote:

What happens when the contactor fails? I don't trust a NC contactor that is supposed to open on 240Vac coil voltage from the generator. It's not a failsafe solution.  

Jason 

On Tue, May 4, 2021, 3:15 PM Drake  wrote: 
P.S. The contactor method is even mentioned somewhere in the Outback literature. I've been using it for years. It is very simple and requires no complex equipment. It will not interfere with rapid shutdown. 40 A, 240 V contactors with 240 V coils are readily available and not terribly expensive. The 240 V output of the generator circuit provides the signal. 


At 10:02 AM 5/4/2021, you wrote:
Get a contactor with a 240 VAC coil. Connect the coil wire wires to the 240 V output circuit of the generator, so when the generator comes on, the contactor opens. Run the current from the AC coupled Enphase inverters through the contacts from common to N/C. 


---

On 2021-05-03 10:26, Dave Tedeyan wrote:
Hi All,  


I am planning on using a Sol-Ark for the first time for adding battery backup 
to an existing system. It is Enphase, so clearly it will be AC coupled, and 
there is a whole house generator. When I talked to Sol-Ark about it, they 
recommended putting the generator on a time of use schedule to not allow it to 
come on during the day so that we don't run into the issue of the solar 
backfeeding the generator.

I was wondering though if anyone has just used a contactor to cut out the solar 
when the generator turns on? Something like Outback's GS-AC-Gen-Kit, although 
in this case I will need something rated for just over 30A. This seems like a 
better way to allow the generator to run at any time it is needed, especially 
if it is a gloomy, snowy, winter day.

Cheers, 
Dave


--
Dave Tedeyan, PE

1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850
Cell: 607-288-2898
www.sungineersolar.com [1]

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator and AC coupling on a Sol-Ark

[Dave Tedeyan]

I suppose the question here is - which is the worse failure mode?
A. Solar turning off until an electrician can fix it.
OR
B. Not knowing the contactor failed until it does not open when the
generator turns on and running the risk that the solar backfeeds the
generator and breaks it.

For off-grid maybe A would be more of a concern. But for grid tied, I would
think option B would be worse.

Does anyone have a fail safe method of doing this?

Cheers,
Dave

On Tue, May 4, 2021, 4:41 PM Chris Schaefer 
wrote:

> Jason,
>
> A valid concern which is why I always wire them as powered open so if
> there is a failure it would transition closed or not open.
>
> Christopher
>
> On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 4:15 PM Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
>> What happens when the contactor fails? I don't trust a NC contactor that
>> is supposed to open on 240Vac coil voltage from the generator. It's not a
>> failsafe solution.
>>
>> Jason
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, May 4, 2021, 3:15 PM Drake 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> P.S. The contactor method is even mentioned somewhere in the Outback
>>> literature. I've been using it for years. It is very simple and requires no
>>> complex equipment. It will not interfere with rapid shutdown. 40 A, 240 V
>>> contactors with 240 V coils are readily available and not terribly
>>> expensive. The 240 V output of the generator circuit provides the signal.
>>>
>>> At 10:02 AM 5/4/2021, you wrote:
>>>
>>> Get a contactor with a 240 VAC coil. Connect the coil wire wires to the
>>> 240 V output circuit of the generator, so when the generator comes on, the
>>> contactor opens. Run the current from the AC coupled Enphase inverters
>>> through the contacts from common to N/C.
>>>
>>> ---
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2021-05-03 10:26, Dave Tedeyan wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I am planning on using a Sol-Ark for the first time for adding battery
>>> backup to an existing system. It is Enphase, so clearly it will be AC
>>> coupled, and there is a whole house generator. When I talked to Sol-Ark
>>> about it, they recommended putting the generator on a time of use schedule
>>> to not allow it to come on during the day so that we don't run into the
>>> issue of the solar backfeeding the generator.
>>>
>>> I was wondering though if anyone has just used a contactor to cut out
>>> the solar when the generator turns on? Something like Outback's
>>> GS-AC-Gen-Kit, although in this case I will need something rated for just
>>> over 30A. This seems like a better way to allow the generator to run at any
>>> time it is needed, especially if it is a gloomy, snowy, winter day.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> *Dave Tedeyan, PE * [image: Sungineer Solar]
>>> 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850
>>> Cell: 607-288-2898
>>> www.sungineersolar.com
>>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator and AC coupling on a Sol-Ark

[Chris Schaefer]

Jason,

A valid concern which is why I always wire them as powered open so if there
is a failure it would transition closed or not open.

Christopher

On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 4:15 PM Jason Szumlanski <
ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:

> What happens when the contactor fails? I don't trust a NC contactor that
> is supposed to open on 240Vac coil voltage from the generator. It's not a
> failsafe solution.
>
> Jason
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 4, 2021, 3:15 PM Drake 
> wrote:
>
>> P.S. The contactor method is even mentioned somewhere in the Outback
>> literature. I've been using it for years. It is very simple and requires no
>> complex equipment. It will not interfere with rapid shutdown. 40 A, 240 V
>> contactors with 240 V coils are readily available and not terribly
>> expensive. The 240 V output of the generator circuit provides the signal.
>>
>> At 10:02 AM 5/4/2021, you wrote:
>>
>> Get a contactor with a 240 VAC coil. Connect the coil wire wires to the
>> 240 V output circuit of the generator, so when the generator comes on, the
>> contactor opens. Run the current from the AC coupled Enphase inverters
>> through the contacts from common to N/C.
>>
>> ---
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2021-05-03 10:26, Dave Tedeyan wrote:
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I am planning on using a Sol-Ark for the first time for adding battery
>> backup to an existing system. It is Enphase, so clearly it will be AC
>> coupled, and there is a whole house generator. When I talked to Sol-Ark
>> about it, they recommended putting the generator on a time of use schedule
>> to not allow it to come on during the day so that we don't run into the
>> issue of the solar backfeeding the generator.
>>
>> I was wondering though if anyone has just used a contactor to cut out the
>> solar when the generator turns on? Something like Outback's GS-AC-Gen-Kit,
>> although in this case I will need something rated for just over 30A. This
>> seems like a better way to allow the generator to run at any time it is
>> needed, especially if it is a gloomy, snowy, winter day.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Dave
>>
>> --
>>
>> *Dave Tedeyan, PE * [image: Sungineer Solar]
>> 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850
>> Cell: 607-288-2898
>> www.sungineersolar.com
>>
>> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator and AC coupling on a Sol-Ark

[Jason Szumlanski]

What happens when the contactor fails? I don't trust a NC contactor that is
supposed to open on 240Vac coil voltage from the generator. It's not a
failsafe solution.

Jason



On Tue, May 4, 2021, 3:15 PM Drake 
wrote:

> P.S. The contactor method is even mentioned somewhere in the Outback
> literature. I've been using it for years. It is very simple and requires no
> complex equipment. It will not interfere with rapid shutdown. 40 A, 240 V
> contactors with 240 V coils are readily available and not terribly
> expensive. The 240 V output of the generator circuit provides the signal.
>
> At 10:02 AM 5/4/2021, you wrote:
>
> Get a contactor with a 240 VAC coil. Connect the coil wire wires to the
> 240 V output circuit of the generator, so when the generator comes on, the
> contactor opens. Run the current from the AC coupled Enphase inverters
> through the contacts from common to N/C.
>
> ---
>
>
>
> On 2021-05-03 10:26, Dave Tedeyan wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> I am planning on using a Sol-Ark for the first time for adding battery
> backup to an existing system. It is Enphase, so clearly it will be AC
> coupled, and there is a whole house generator. When I talked to Sol-Ark
> about it, they recommended putting the generator on a time of use schedule
> to not allow it to come on during the day so that we don't run into the
> issue of the solar backfeeding the generator.
>
> I was wondering though if anyone has just used a contactor to cut out the
> solar when the generator turns on? Something like Outback's GS-AC-Gen-Kit,
> although in this case I will need something rated for just over 30A. This
> seems like a better way to allow the generator to run at any time it is
> needed, especially if it is a gloomy, snowy, winter day.
>
> Cheers,
> Dave
>
> --
>
> *Dave Tedeyan, PE * [image: Sungineer Solar]
> 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850
> Cell: 607-288-2898
> www.sungineersolar.com
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator and AC coupling on a Sol-Ark

[Drake]

P.S. The contactor method is even mentioned somewhere in the Outback 
literature. I've been using it for years. It is very simple and 
requires no complex equipment. It will not interfere with rapid 
shutdown. 40 A, 240 V contactors with 240 V coils are readily 
available and not terribly expensive. The 240 V output of the 
generator circuit provides the signal.


At 10:02 AM 5/4/2021, you wrote:
Get a contactor with a 240 VAC coil. Connect the coil wire wires to 
the 240 V output circuit of the generator, so when the generator 
comes on, the contactor opens. Run the current from the AC coupled 
Enphase inverters through the contacts from common to N/C.


---



On 2021-05-03 10:26, Dave Tedeyan wrote:

Hi All,

I am planning on using a Sol-Ark for the first time for adding 
battery backup to an existing system. It is Enphase, so clearly it 
will be AC coupled, and there is a whole house generator. When I 
talked to Sol-Ark about it, they recommended putting the generator 
on a time of use schedule to not allow it to come on during the day 
so that we don't run into the issue of the solar backfeeding the generator.


I was wondering though if anyone has just used a contactor to cut 
out the solar when the generator turns on? Something like Outback's 
GS-AC-Gen-Kit, although in this case I will need something rated 
for just over 30A. This seems like a better way to allow the 
generator to run at any time it is needed, especially if it is a 
gloomy, snowy, winter day.


Cheers,
Dave

--
Dave Tedeyan, PE
Sungineer Solar

1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850
Cell: 607-288-2898
www.sungineersolar.com

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator and AC coupling on a Sol-Ark

[Glenn Burt]

This may not be a good idea if you want to retain rapid shutdown compliance…

 

-Glenn

 

From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of Jeff 
Clearwater
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2021 12:20 PM
To: RE-wrenches ; Dave Tedeyan 

Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator and AC coupling on a Sol-Ark

 

Hi Dave ~

Well this might not be the answer you are looking for but I'd take a serious 
look at the relative hassle of rewiring the array to DC.  Sol-Ark's shine in DC 
coupled mode - highly efficient - and then you have the generator port open 
(now not used for AC coupling) available for the generator.   Depending on how 
accessible the MC4s are on the array and how easy to run DC wire it might not 
be that much work - with a much superior result.

Best,

Jeff

-- 
~~~

Jeff Clearwater
Village Power Design
linkedin   
www.villagepowerdesign.com  
cell - 413-559-9763
~~~





Dave Tedeyan  

May 3, 2021 at 7:26 AM

Hi All, 

 

I am planning on using a Sol-Ark for the first time for adding battery backup 
to an existing system. It is Enphase, so clearly it will be AC coupled, and 
there is a whole house generator. When I talked to Sol-Ark about it, they 
recommended putting the generator on a time of use schedule to not allow it to 
come on during the day so that we don't run into the issue of the solar 
backfeeding the generator.

 

I was wondering though if anyone has just used a contactor to cut out the solar 
when the generator turns on? Something like Outback's GS-AC-Gen-Kit, although 
in this case I will need something rated for just over 30A. This seems like a 
better way to allow the generator to run at any time it is needed, especially 
if it is a gloomy, snowy, winter day.

 

Cheers, 

Dave

 

-- 

Dave Tedeyan, PE

   

1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850

Cell: 607-288-2898

  www.sungineersolar.com





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Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator and AC coupling on a Sol-Ark

[Jeff Clearwater]

Hi Dave ~

Well this might not be the answer you are looking for but I'd take a 
serious look at the relative hassle of rewiring the array to DC. 
Sol-Ark's shine in DC coupled mode - highly efficient - and then you 
have the generator port open (now not used for AC coupling) available 
for the generator.   Depending on how accessible the MC4s are on the 
array and how easy to run DC wire it might not be that much work - with 
a much superior result.


Best,

Jeff

--
~~~
Jeff Clearwater
Village Power Design
linkedin 
www.villagepowerdesign.com 
cell - 413-559-9763
~~~


Dave Tedeyan 
May 3, 2021 at 7:26 AM
Hi All,

I am planning on using a Sol-Ark for the first time for adding battery 
backup to an existing system. It is Enphase, so clearly it will be AC 
coupled, and there is a whole house generator. When I talked to 
Sol-Ark about it, they recommended putting the generator on a time of 
use schedule to not allow it to come on during the day so that we 
don't run into the issue of the solar backfeeding the generator.


I was wondering though if anyone has just used a contactor to cut out 
the solar when the generator turns on? Something like Outback's 
GS-AC-Gen-Kit, although in this case I will need something rated for 
just over 30A. This seems like a better way to allow the generator to 
run at any time it is needed, especially if it is a gloomy, snowy, 
winter day.


Cheers,
Dave

--
*Dave Tedeyan, PE*
Sungineer Solar*
*
1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850
Cell: 607-288-2898
www.sungineersolar.com 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator and AC coupling on a Sol-Ark

[Chris Schaefer]

Dave,

My initial background comes from the Industrial Controls world w/ a strong
military influence. Given that the generator probably has some kind of
transfer switch, chances are that the transfer switch has a dry contact in
which can be used to power a relay. I normally use ASCO transfer switches
in this manner along with an Allen-Bradley contactor, P/N 400DP50ND3. This
has a 120vac coil, 4 poles with a rating of 50 amps. Hope this helps.

Christopher


On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 10:44 AM 
wrote:

> Get a contactor with a 240 VAC coil. Connect the coil wire wires to the
> 240 V output circuit of the generator, so when the generator comes on, the
> contactor opens. Run the current from the AC coupled Enphase inverters
> through the contacts from common to N/C.
>
> ---
>
>
>
> On 2021-05-03 10:26, Dave Tedeyan wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> I am planning on using a Sol-Ark for the first time for adding battery
> backup to an existing system. It is Enphase, so clearly it will be AC
> coupled, and there is a whole house generator. When I talked to Sol-Ark
> about it, they recommended putting the generator on a time of use schedule
> to not allow it to come on during the day so that we don't run into the
> issue of the solar backfeeding the generator.
>
> I was wondering though if anyone has just used a contactor to cut out the
> solar when the generator turns on? Something like Outback's GS-AC-Gen-Kit,
> although in this case I will need something rated for just over 30A. This
> seems like a better way to allow the generator to run at any time it is
> needed, especially if it is a gloomy, snowy, winter day.
>
> Cheers,
> Dave
>
> --
> *Dave Tedeyan, PE*
> [image: Sungineer Solar]
> 1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850
> Cell: 607-288-2898
> www.sungineersolar.com
>
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-- 

Chris Schaefer’s


*Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 *
*5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com
 ~ E-mail: ch...@solarandwindfx.com
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Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said,
"democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are
willing to work and give to those who would not."
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator and AC coupling on a Sol-Ark

[drake . chamberlin]

Get a contactor with a 240 VAC coil. Connect the coil wire wires to the
240 V output circuit of the generator, so when the generator comes on,
the contactor opens. Run the current from the AC coupled Enphase
inverters through the contacts from common to N/C. 


---

On 2021-05-03 10:26, Dave Tedeyan wrote:

Hi All,  

I am planning on using a Sol-Ark for the first time for adding battery backup to an existing system. It is Enphase, so clearly it will be AC coupled, and there is a whole house generator. When I talked to Sol-Ark about it, they recommended putting the generator on a time of use schedule to not allow it to come on during the day so that we don't run into the issue of the solar backfeeding the generator. 

I was wondering though if anyone has just used a contactor to cut out the solar when the generator turns on? Something like Outback's GS-AC-Gen-Kit, although in this case I will need something rated for just over 30A. This seems like a better way to allow the generator to run at any time it is needed, especially if it is a gloomy, snowy, winter day. 

Cheers,  
Dave

--

Dave Tedeyan, PE 

1653 Slaterville Road, Ithaca, NY 14850 
Cell: 607-288-2898 
www.sungineersolar.com [1] 
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