Re: [RE-wrenches] solar lease questions

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

Hi all,  not enough information.
Does her grid allow export?
Does she have a period of poor sun?
What is her daily or monthly consumption?
Is there an AC  or DC limit on connected solar power?
Will her AHJ or Utility allow line side tap?
The system seems to be poorly designed.  Power Walls are AC coupled, the
large array would clip all day and only have advantage in the shoulders, a
smaller array and bigger inverters?
This design depends upon Utility and AHJ   thank you have a nice day.

On Sat, Dec 17, 2022 at 5:35 PM jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> HI All,
>
> I”ve got a friend in hawaii, big island near Kona  that is looking at a
> sun run lease and she’s asking me questions.
>
> I’m not that familiar with the electric rates nor the games that Sun Run
> is doing.
>
> They are pushing a 20 yr lease with the following system:
> 38 x 400 watt panels
> 2 x SE 3.8kw
> 2 x power wall
> it will offset 120% of her load
> loan is $398 month/ 20 yrs which is $95,000
>
> My first really big question is thats 15.2kw on 7.6kw of inverter?  That
> doesn’t sound right, 2 x DC/AC ratio?
> Does it make sense to have the batteries?
>
> And if you paid for the system outright, what would that be in Hawaii?
>
>
> Any and all help and advice is welcome,
> or if there any installers near there, that would also be helpful.
>
>
> thx
> jay
> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] solar lease questions

[Marco Mangelsdorf via RE-wrenches]

Hey Jay,

I've been doing PV on the Big Island since 2000.

15 kW STC DC on 7.6 kW AC is ridiculous and not atypical typical of
Sunrun's crank-out-the-design-by-some-computer-program approach. When said
program calculates a 120 percent offset, does that factor in power output
clipping? I think not. Especially on the Kona side, which is sunnier than
the east side of the island, such a DC-AC ratio is pretty much sure to clip
A LOT I'm thinking.

Our current residential electric rates here on Hawaii Island are between
42.5 to 47 cents/kWh.

Aloha,
marco

On Sunday, December 18, 2022, jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> HI All,
>
> I”ve got a friend in hawaii, big island near Kona  that is looking at a
> sun run lease and she’s asking me questions.
>
> I’m not that familiar with the electric rates nor the games that Sun Run
> is doing.
>
> They are pushing a 20 yr lease with the following system:
> 38 x 400 watt panels
> 2 x SE 3.8kw
> 2 x power wall
> it will offset 120% of her load
> loan is $398 month/ 20 yrs which is $95,000
>
> My first really big question is thats 15.2kw on 7.6kw of inverter?  That
> doesn’t sound right, 2 x DC/AC ratio?
> Does it make sense to have the batteries?
>
> And if you paid for the system outright, what would that be in Hawaii?
>
>
> Any and all help and advice is welcome,
> or if there any installers near there, that would also be helpful.
>
>
> thx
> jay
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
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Re: [RE-wrenches] solar lease questions

[Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches]

So the SE 3800 x 2 are AC coupled to Tesla power walls? I thought PWs had
built-in ac coupling.
And is it correct there is no AC sell back to the grid in HI? Then
batteries are a must.

Sorry if these are dumb questions. We are recovering from a heavy wet snow
here.



On Sat, Dec 17, 2022 at 6:35 PM jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> HI All,
>
> I”ve got a friend in hawaii, big island near Kona  that is looking at a
> sun run lease and she’s asking me questions.
>
> I’m not that familiar with the electric rates nor the games that Sun Run
> is doing.
>
> They are pushing a 20 yr lease with the following system:
> 38 x 400 watt panels
> 2 x SE 3.8kw
> 2 x power wall
> it will offset 120% of her load
> loan is $398 month/ 20 yrs which is $95,000
>
> My first really big question is thats 15.2kw on 7.6kw of inverter?  That
> doesn’t sound right, 2 x DC/AC ratio?
> Does it make sense to have the batteries?
>
> And if you paid for the system outright, what would that be in Hawaii?
>
>
> Any and all help and advice is welcome,
> or if there any installers near there, that would also be helpful.
>
>
> thx
> jay
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
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-- 

*Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *

*Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*

*Celebrating our 31st Anniversary 1991-2022!!*

*www.vermont.solar*


dba Vermont Solar Engineering

802.863.1202
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[RE-wrenches] solar lease questions

[jay via RE-wrenches]

HI All,

I”ve got a friend in hawaii, big island near Kona  that is looking at a sun run 
lease and she’s asking me questions.

I’m not that familiar with the electric rates nor the games that Sun Run is 
doing. 

They are pushing a 20 yr lease with the following system:
38 x 400 watt panels
2 x SE 3.8kw
2 x power wall
it will offset 120% of her load
loan is $398 month/ 20 yrs which is $95,000

My first really big question is thats 15.2kw on 7.6kw of inverter?  That 
doesn’t sound right, 2 x DC/AC ratio?
Does it make sense to have the batteries?

And if you paid for the system outright, what would that be in Hawaii?


Any and all help and advice is welcome,
or if there any installers near there, that would also be helpful.


thx
jay
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Re: [RE-wrenches] BACKUP system revival

[Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches]

The Radian grid AC in is connected to the utility side of the transfer
switch. You may need a service rated fused disconnect on that line,
probably 60A. Then you can feed the AC out to the generator input on the
transfer switch to power the main house panel. It's best and usually
required by code (depending on UL1741 or UL9540) to use a manual transfer
switch or adequate load control, or total house loads that the Radian can
handle.  Getting the aux on the Radian to start/stop the generator involves
tracing the signal wires in the transfer switch (if automatic) and using
those.

Brad

On Sat, Dec 17, 2022 at 9:44 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Dana:
>
> I have never incorporated a transfer switch with a battery inverter. The
> inverter’s internal transfer relay with the smarts it provides has always
> been preferred.
>
> I have of course used a transfer switch for generator-only systems. In
> some cases the generator is rated smaller than the utility feed and the
> user needs to live within the capabilities of the generator on the rare
> occasion when the utility is down.
>
> So your scenario brings up an interesting option: using a full 200 amp
> transfer switch means the Radian is not a 50 amp bottleneck when the
> utility is up. The Radian would become an ersatz generator connected to the
> gen input on the transfer switch.
>
> The wrinkle is: how do you provide an AC input to the Radian to charge
> batteries when the grid is up without triggering the transfer switch?
>
> When the Radian sees AC input it wants to through-transfer. There must be
> some way to configure the transfer switch to not trigger when the grid is
> up. Then a breaker from the main panel feeds the Radian, the Radian charges
> batteries and the Radian output goes nowhere.
>
> However when the grid does go down and the transfer happens you have a
> power flow loop which will shut down the Radian.
>
> I imagine there is some scheme of running the Radian input through a
> contractor that would be opened when the transfer switch connects the
> Radian output to the load. I think if you solve that you may have a working
> option. This does add a layer of complexity, however.
>
> Good luck.
>
> William Miller
>
> PS:  You could use an outboard battery charger, however that is a waste of
> the very good battery charger built into the Radian
>
> Wm
>
> On Sat, Dec 17, 2022 at 8:28 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Hey All a Cheery Season to you all!
>>
>>
>>
>> I inherited a backup system that had “failed”. It was unwired, & poorly
>> labeled.
>>
>>
>>
>> 1200 AHR AGM Battery – 1 Radian 8KW inverter – 200 amp Generac transfer
>> switch – No solar - Feeding a 200 amp house panel.
>>
>>
>>
>> First I explained the there were too many loads for an 8KW inverter. It
>> could & may overload the 8KW inverter. They said “it had worked fine for 5
>> years & they were OK with it as is please get it back up”…
>>
>> Replaced the existing Eaton transfer switch as the Generac controller was
>> shot, with a Generac 200 amp Xfer switch complete with controller &
>> transfer switch.
>>
>> Rewired & had to recharge the 48 volt battery from 20volt back up to full
>> with a pair of IOTA chargers in series.
>>
>>
>>
>> The original trigger was 3 wires from the Radian to the 12 volt & AUX
>> output to the input on the Generac controller. These were disconnected on
>> the Generac end. So no clue or labeling there.
>>
>>
>>
>> I called Outback & they called it Redneck engineering & send me a few
>> articles to read.
>>
>>
>>
>> Has anyone configured a backup in this manner?
>>
>>
>>
>> All suggestions appreciated, thanks & wishing you all a safe & sane
>> season!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Dana Orzel  Great Solar Works, Inc.
>>
>> *C - 208.721.7003   d...@solarwork.com
>> *
>>
>> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374
>>
>> www.greatsolarworks.comwww.solarwor.com
>>
>> *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  *
>>
>>
>>
>> *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
>> other:
>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List rules & etiquette:
>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>
>> Check out or update participant bios:
>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> --
>
> William Miller
> Miller Solar.com
> 895-438-5600
> www.millersolar.com
> 

Re: [RE-wrenches] BACKUP system revival

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

Hello and happy holidays.  About 10 years ago, I had a similar problem with
a similar customer who wanted a similar problem solved.  The Generac auto
transfer switch needed a 12 volt source.  When the grid went down the
generac transfer switch disconnected and waited about 10 to 15 seconds then
started the generator.  The customer wanted shorter outage transfer time. I
used the inverter driving a dedicated load panel picking up the priority
loads.  When the generator started it would, then after 3 minutes, the
inverter would drop out letting the generator carry all loads, and
the inverter would go back to battery charging.  (note: 8 kW for 15 to 20
minutes is only 2.7 kWh, but the battery system has to be fast,  a LiFe at
C/2 requires 16 kWh/ 300 AH@ 48V and a LA at C/6 requires 48 kWh or 1000
AH)  This job also had solar, and it was DC coupled using a charge
controller.  It has been working for  years, but has never had a major
outage.  The generator better be a good clean signal.  also the grid outage
has to be longer than 10 to 15 seconds for the generator to take over, and
the customer wants if the generator on propane runs out of fuel to go to
solar in my case.  Many years ago I had an off grid customer with a 200 amp
service I supplied using two Outback FX and an auto transformer. It
worked for years.  Good luck.

On Sat, Dec 17, 2022 at 10:28 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hey All a Cheery Season to you all!
>
>
>
> I inherited a backup system that had “failed”. It was unwired, & poorly
> labeled.
>
>
>
> 1200 AHR AGM Battery – 1 Radian 8KW inverter – 200 amp Generac transfer
> switch – No solar - Feeding a 200 amp house panel.
>
>
>
> First I explained the there were too many loads for an 8KW inverter. It
> could & may overload the 8KW inverter. They said “it had worked fine for 5
> years & they were OK with it as is please get it back up”…
>
> Replaced the existing Eaton transfer switch as the Generac controller was
> shot, with a Generac 200 amp Xfer switch complete with controller &
> transfer switch.
>
> Rewired & had to recharge the 48 volt battery from 20volt back up to full
> with a pair of IOTA chargers in series.
>
>
>
> The original trigger was 3 wires from the Radian to the 12 volt & AUX
> output to the input on the Generac controller. These were disconnected on
> the Generac end. So no clue or labeling there.
>
>
>
> I called Outback & they called it Redneck engineering & send me a few
> articles to read.
>
>
>
> Has anyone configured a backup in this manner?
>
>
>
> All suggestions appreciated, thanks & wishing you all a safe & sane season!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dana Orzel  Great Solar Works, Inc.
>
> *C - 208.721.7003   d...@solarwork.com
> *
>
> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374
>
> www.greatsolarworks.comwww.solarwor.com
>
> *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  *
>
>
>
> *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email.
>
>
>
>
> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] BACKUP system revival

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches]

Cheers to all !  I had this problem for years but my Canadian friends 
finally listened to me/others and built a smart 200A panel for my 
clients.

 Not going to help your situation Dana but an FYI.
When paired with Schneider Electric XW Pro inverters [3], the Backup 
Control Switch (BCS) automatically disconnects from the grid during an 
outage,

 allowing the system to provide backup power to the home.

Certified to UL standards for USA, the Backup Control Switch is used for 
larger XW Pro systems requiring up to 200 A rated MID or service 
entrance installation.


Part number: 865-BCS-2200

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On 2022-12-17 8:28 am, Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches wrote:


Hey All a Cheery Season to you all!

I inherited a backup system that had "failed". It was unwired, & poorly 
labeled.


1200 AHR AGM Battery - 1 Radian 8KW inverter - 200 amp Generac transfer 
switch - No solar - Feeding a 200 amp house panel.


First I explained the there were too many loads for an 8KW inverter. It 
could & may overload the 8KW inverter. They said "it had worked fine 
for 5 years & they were OK with it as is please get it back up"…


Replaced the existing Eaton transfer switch as the Generac controller 
was shot, with a Generac 200 amp Xfer switch complete with controller & 
transfer switch.


Rewired & had to recharge the 48 volt battery from 20volt back up to 
full with a pair of IOTA chargers in series.


The original trigger was 3 wires from the Radian to the 12 volt & AUX 
output to the input on the Generac controller. These were disconnected 
on the Generac end. So no clue or labeling there.


I called Outback & they called it Redneck engineering & send me a few 
articles to read.


Has anyone configured a backup in this manner?

All suggestions appreciated, thanks & wishing you all a safe & sane 
season!


Dana Orzel  Great Solar Works, Inc.

C - 208.721.7003   d...@solarwork.com

Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374

www.greatsolarworks.com [1]www.solarwor.com [2]

"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"

P Please consider the environment before printing this email.

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Links:
--
[1] http://www.greatsolarworks.com/
[2] http://www.solarwor.com
[3] https://solar.se.com/us/en/product/xw-pro-120-240v/___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] BACKUP system revival

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Dana:

I have never incorporated a transfer switch with a battery inverter. The
inverter’s internal transfer relay with the smarts it provides has always
been preferred.

I have of course used a transfer switch for generator-only systems. In some
cases the generator is rated smaller than the utility feed and the user
needs to live within the capabilities of the generator on the rare occasion
when the utility is down.

So your scenario brings up an interesting option: using a full 200 amp
transfer switch means the Radian is not a 50 amp bottleneck when the
utility is up. The Radian would become an ersatz generator connected to the
gen input on the transfer switch.

The wrinkle is: how do you provide an AC input to the Radian to charge
batteries when the grid is up without triggering the transfer switch?

When the Radian sees AC input it wants to through-transfer. There must be
some way to configure the transfer switch to not trigger when the grid is
up. Then a breaker from the main panel feeds the Radian, the Radian charges
batteries and the Radian output goes nowhere.

However when the grid does go down and the transfer happens you have a
power flow loop which will shut down the Radian.

I imagine there is some scheme of running the Radian input through a
contractor that would be opened when the transfer switch connects the
Radian output to the load. I think if you solve that you may have a working
option. This does add a layer of complexity, however.

Good luck.

William Miller

PS:  You could use an outboard battery charger, however that is a waste of
the very good battery charger built into the Radian

Wm

On Sat, Dec 17, 2022 at 8:28 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hey All a Cheery Season to you all!
>
>
>
> I inherited a backup system that had “failed”. It was unwired, & poorly
> labeled.
>
>
>
> 1200 AHR AGM Battery – 1 Radian 8KW inverter – 200 amp Generac transfer
> switch – No solar - Feeding a 200 amp house panel.
>
>
>
> First I explained the there were too many loads for an 8KW inverter. It
> could & may overload the 8KW inverter. They said “it had worked fine for 5
> years & they were OK with it as is please get it back up”…
>
> Replaced the existing Eaton transfer switch as the Generac controller was
> shot, with a Generac 200 amp Xfer switch complete with controller &
> transfer switch.
>
> Rewired & had to recharge the 48 volt battery from 20volt back up to full
> with a pair of IOTA chargers in series.
>
>
>
> The original trigger was 3 wires from the Radian to the 12 volt & AUX
> output to the input on the Generac controller. These were disconnected on
> the Generac end. So no clue or labeling there.
>
>
>
> I called Outback & they called it Redneck engineering & send me a few
> articles to read.
>
>
>
> Has anyone configured a backup in this manner?
>
>
>
> All suggestions appreciated, thanks & wishing you all a safe & sane season!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dana Orzel  Great Solar Works, Inc.
>
> *C - 208.721.7003   d...@solarwork.com
> *
>
> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374
>
> www.greatsolarworks.comwww.solarwor.com
>
> *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  *
>
>
>
> *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email.
>
>
>
>
> ___
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> --

William Miller
Miller Solar.com
895-438-5600
www.millersolar.com
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[RE-wrenches] BACKUP system revival

[Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches]

Hey All a Cheery Season to you all!

 

I inherited a backup system that had "failed". It was unwired, & poorly
labeled.

 

1200 AHR AGM Battery - 1 Radian 8KW inverter - 200 amp Generac transfer
switch - No solar - Feeding a 200 amp house panel.

 

First I explained the there were too many loads for an 8KW inverter. It
could & may overload the 8KW inverter. They said "it had worked fine for 5
years & they were OK with it as is please get it back up".

Replaced the existing Eaton transfer switch as the Generac controller was
shot, with a Generac 200 amp Xfer switch complete with controller & transfer
switch.

Rewired & had to recharge the 48 volt battery from 20volt back up to full
with a pair of IOTA chargers in series.

 

The original trigger was 3 wires from the Radian to the 12 volt & AUX output
to the input on the Generac controller. These were disconnected on the
Generac end. So no clue or labeling there.

 

I called Outback & they called it Redneck engineering & send me a few
articles to read.

 

Has anyone configured a backup in this manner?

 

All suggestions appreciated, thanks & wishing you all a safe & sane season!

 

 

 

Dana Orzel  Great Solar Works, Inc. 

C - 208.721.7003   d...@solarwork.com

Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374

www.greatsolarworks.com 
www.solarwor.com   

"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  

 

P Please consider the environment before printing this email.

 

 

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