Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar and tenant billing

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Bill:

I’m not sure what you are doing is entirely legal. Tenants can only be
billed for actual (measured) utility usage.

This does not necessarily apply to your situation but it should be noted:
 Tenants must be billed at the rate the landlord is charged— no marking up
the cost.

I’d say anyone with tenants wanting to pass on utility costs needs to
sub-meter. Good records need to be kept.

If you are being billed at TOU and/or tiered rates then you need to do the
accounting and bill at the variable rates.

E-Gauge is a fine platform for that. You can download an hour-by-hour
record and apply the correct rates.

William Miller

On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 6:54 PM frenergy via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Carl,
>
>  In my area (PG, N. California) I've installed solar on
> four of my rentals.  Rather than trying to figure out monthly billing,
> renters come, renters go, true-up, some occasionally don't pay their
> bills, etc. I decided to just bump up the rent to cover the average cost
> of power.  The tenant still gets the PG bill and pays the ~$10/mo.
> meter charge and if they are there at true-up time they pay zero or a
> small end-of-year amount.  My renters have been happy with this
> arrangement.
>
>  You have to do some math to have it come out close and I
> did the grid-ties after each rental had some electrical history.
> Fortunately nobody has decided to have a grow-room, yet.  Whenever an
> appliance needs replacing, I install Energy Star replacements.  Of
> course I tell them that if they are reasonably careful their true-up
> will be little to none.  Eventually my investment gets paid off and the
> higher rent goes into my pocket instead of PG's.  Win-win.
>
> Bill
>
> Feather River Solar Electric
> Bill Battagin, Owner
> 4291 Nelson St.(shipping)
> 5575 Genesee Rd
> .
> (USPS, UPS)
> Taylorsville, CA 95983
> 530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell
> CA Lic 874049
> Solar powered since 1982
>
> On 1/30/2023 5:42 PM, Carl Adams via RE-wrenches wrote:
> > Hello wrenches,
> > I have a client that is installing solar on a commercial building
> > where he has four points of connection for four tenants.  Are there
> > any good solutions out there for metering power for tenants in this
> > situation.  Production metering will be done via  SolarEdge revenue
> > grade meters.
> >
> > With kind of regards
> > Carl Adams
> > SunRock Solar
> >
> > ___
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William Miller
Miller Solar.com
895-438-5600
www.millersolar.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar and tenant billing

[Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches]

Carl
Wrenches, E Guage make a great energy monitoring platform
Jerry

On Mon, Jan 30, 2023, 5:43 PM Carl Adams via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hello wrenches,
> I have a client that is installing solar on a commercial building where he
> has four points of connection for four tenants.  Are there any good
> solutions out there for metering power for tenants in this situation.
> Production metering will be done via  SolarEdge revenue grade meters.
>
> With kind of regards
> Carl Adams
> SunRock Solar
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar and tenant billing

[frenergy via RE-wrenches]

Carl,

            In my area (PG, N. California) I've installed solar on 
four of my rentals.  Rather than trying to figure out monthly billing, 
renters come, renters go, true-up, some occasionally don't pay their 
bills, etc. I decided to just bump up the rent to cover the average cost 
of power.  The tenant still gets the PG bill and pays the ~$10/mo. 
meter charge and if they are there at true-up time they pay zero or a 
small end-of-year amount.  My renters have been happy with this arrangement.


            You have to do some math to have it come out close and I 
did the grid-ties after each rental had some electrical history.  
Fortunately nobody has decided to have a grow-room, yet.  Whenever an 
appliance needs replacing, I install Energy Star replacements.  Of 
course I tell them that if they are reasonably careful their true-up 
will be little to none.  Eventually my investment gets paid off and the 
higher rent goes into my pocket instead of PG's.  Win-win.


Bill

Feather River Solar Electric
Bill Battagin, Owner
4291 Nelson St.(shipping)
5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS)
Taylorsville, CA 95983
530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell
CA Lic 874049
Solar powered since 1982

On 1/30/2023 5:42 PM, Carl Adams via RE-wrenches wrote:

Hello wrenches,
I have a client that is installing solar on a commercial building 
where he has four points of connection for four tenants.  Are there 
any good solutions out there for metering power for tenants in this 
situation.  Production metering will be done via  SolarEdge revenue 
grade meters.


With kind of regards
Carl Adams
SunRock Solar

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar and tenant billing

[Thomas Hall via RE-wrenches]

In my opinion, the eGauge meter is the Cadillac, and has multiple inputs. 

Thomas Hall

> On Jan 30, 2023, at 3:43 PM, Carl Adams via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hello wrenches,
> I have a client that is installing solar on a commercial building where he 
> has four points of connection for four tenants.  Are there any good solutions 
> out there for metering power for tenants in this situation.  Production 
> metering will be done via  SolarEdge revenue grade meters.  
> 
> With kind of regards
> Carl Adams
> SunRock Solar
> ___
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[RE-wrenches] Solar and tenant billing

[Carl Adams via RE-wrenches]

Hello wrenches,
I have a client that is installing solar on a commercial building where he
has four points of connection for four tenants.  Are there any good
solutions out there for metering power for tenants in this situation.
Production metering will be done via  SolarEdge revenue grade meters.

With kind of regards
Carl Adams
SunRock Solar
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Re: [RE-wrenches] VillaGrid Lithium Titanium Batteries

[Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches]

Hey wrenches
I have been to the Sacramento facility, they are 48 vdc nom. We ran some
tests on site pushing pretty hard and the battery did well, no volt drop,
was well over 250 amps for an extended period of time.  It might be good to
reach out to them and do a visit to see how it works, bring your own DC
Clamp to confirm the instrument readings.
Jerry

On Mon, Jan 30, 2023, 2:45 PM Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Howie,
>
> I have never heard about them, but I am interested. If you get any more
> information, I'd love to hear about it. Do they do 48V batteries? or an AC
> ESS?
>
> Are there spec sheets available?
>
> I've been able to find very little information about them.
>
> Thanks,
> Kienan
>
> *Green-Go Solar Distribution LLC*
> *Maxfield Solar LLC (installation and consulting company)*
> *maxfieldso...@hotmail.com* 
> * (801) 631-5584 (Cell) *
> --
> *From:* RE-wrenches  on behalf
> of Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches 
> *Sent:* Monday, January 23, 2023 7:00 PM
> *To:* RE-wrenches 
> *Cc:* Howie Michaelson 
> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] VillaGrid Lithium Titanium Batteries
>
> Has anyone had any experience with the VillaGrid Lithium Titanium
> batteries?  They are supposedly usable in below zero temperatures, which of
> course the LFP batteries are not.  They also apparently have a 20 year
> 10,000 cycle warranty (not that I really put much stock in being able to
> exercise a warranty even 15 years out). They are doing their own
> distribution at this point, but the sales person wouldn't tell me pricing
> until I sat in on a more formal presentation, which tells me I'm not going
> to be overly thrilled with the price point.  They are very new on the
> market, but just thought I'd ask.
> Thanks,
> Howie
>
> *Howie Michaelson **Sun Catcher*
>
> *NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ *
>
> *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service 802-272-0004*
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Re: [RE-wrenches] VillaGrid Lithium Titanium Batteries

[Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches]

Howie,

I have never heard about them, but I am interested. If you get any more 
information, I'd love to hear about it. Do they do 48V batteries? or an AC ESS?

Are there spec sheets available?

I've been able to find very little information about them.

Thanks,
Kienan

Green-Go Solar Distribution LLC
Maxfield Solar LLC (installation and consulting company)
maxfieldso...@hotmail.com
(801) 631-5584 (Cell)

From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of 
Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches 
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2023 7:00 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: Howie Michaelson 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] VillaGrid Lithium Titanium Batteries

Has anyone had any experience with the VillaGrid Lithium Titanium batteries?  
They are supposedly usable in below zero temperatures, which of course the LFP 
batteries are not.  They also apparently have a 20 year 10,000 cycle warranty 
(not that I really put much stock in being able to exercise a warranty even 15 
years out). They are doing their own distribution at this point, but the sales 
person wouldn't tell me pricing until I sat in on a more formal presentation, 
which tells me I'm not going to be overly thrilled with the price point.  They 
are very new on the market, but just thought I'd ask.
Thanks,
Howie
Howie Michaelson
Sun Catcher
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
[https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1MQF8aTcFNnBR59ia5JAm1DsPHCxzNkPx=download]
Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service
802-272-0004
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects

[Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches]

Wrenches.
You might want to consider turning off the inverter as a solution to
turning off the batteries, we have this feature as part of our installs
with outback real simple then no chance of AC anywhere, Not going to pop a
CC, no chance of run on and it has passed every time. Just a thought that's
a safe solution. With Outback you just have to turn off the master nothing
else.
"Fun time in a crazy world"

On Mon, Jan 30, 2023, 7:58 AM Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hey folks - love the Code, hate it, don’t care about it or follow it: it
> doesn’t matter to me. But if you want to change it you have to realize it
> is a process with rules and procedures, and posting on this list that “the
> NEC” should immediately “issue a memo” to do what you want or change what
> you don’t like has ZERO effect.
>
> Brian
>
> On Jan 30, 2023, at 4:47 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> 
>
> I don't think the discussion has forked at all.  A solution to this
> problem, and it is the best solution all things considered, including
> firefighter exposure to 10 ft of conductors that I have a hard time imaging
> them being exposed to,  is for the NEC to issue a memo IMMEDIATELY
> indicating that this section of the code is no longer to be considered a
> requirement and that the next Code cycle will eliminate this requirement.
>
> The other solutions discussed would only work for a few configurations
> realistically and would introduce more danger. Chris
>
>
>
> On 1/29/2023 2:41 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> James, Brian and others:
>
>
>
> Thank you all for the lively discussion.  I am always interested in my
> colleague’s perspectives and this has been illuminating.
>
>
>
> It appears to me the discussion has forked:  One topic is how to deal with
> the reality of the new code regarding a very narrow scenario: ESS inside of
> a residence.  The other topic is: has the NEC evolved to be overly
> restrictive without factual basis?
>
>
>
> Regarding the first topic, it’s in black and white that we must provide
> battery disconnecting means for energy storage systems located in one or
> two family homes if the battery voltage exceeds 60 VDC.  There are very few
> areas that do not adopt the NEC.  If you install ESS you will eventually
> have to deal with this code requirement one way or another.
>
>
>
> Due to lax enforcement or unfamiliarity on the part of local building
> departments, some of you may be able to skirt this requirement.  This is
> great until something happens.  If your non-compliant installation causes a
> loss, you will end up in the defendants chair, not the building inspector.
>
>
>
> Here is how I approach these compliance conundrums:  If I could argue the
> code does not apply or there is a good reason to waive the requirement; if
> the building official agrees; if I feel the installation is really and
> truly safe without meeting the  requirement—only then could I proceed
> without the disconnect.  Otherwise I am going to have to find a way to
> comply.
>
>
>
> As contractors, each of you makes those decisions every day:  What is safe
> enough for my clients?  If any of you think you know more than the people
> who write the codes, then install what you can get away with and keep your
> fingers crossed.  I am not willing to live like that.
>
>
>
> Regarding the second topic: Are we being picked on by an overly
> scare-mongering NFPA?
>
>
>
> What is interesting here is that while most electrical codes are trying to
> prevent house fires, this particular section is trying to protect fire
> fighters after a fire starts (or an earthquake happens or a dump truck runs
> into your house, etc.).
>
>
>
> When California first adopted roof clearances for fire fighters, I got my
> feelings hurt because I was losing business and I did not understand what
> it takes to fight a house fire.  I spoke with a few fire fighters and
> learned about roof and wall venting and how it is affected by prevailing
> winds.  I came around to appreciate there is a real need for rooftop fire
> setbacks.
>
>
>
> It is self-evident why firefighters would not want to cut into a wall with
> a demo saw if there are energized, high amperage conductors in or on that
> wall.  This code requirement for battery disconnecting means is
> fundamentally sensible.  That ends the discussion for me.
>
>
>
> Oh, yeah, the charge controller blowing up thing:  Does anyone have any
> factual data to share on this?  Regardless of that, does it really matter
> if the charge controller is saved but the house burns down?
>
>
>
> The islanding thing:  To be compliant, all ungrounded battery conductors
> need to be disconnected.  This includes the charge controller circuit(s).
> With the charge controllers and inverters disconnected from the batteries
> and from each other there cannot be DC “islanding”.
>
>
>
> The house flooding thing:  At the 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects

[Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches]

Hey folks - love the Code, hate it, don’t care about it or follow it: it doesn’t matter to me. But if you want to change it you have to realize it is a process with rules and procedures, and posting on this list that “the NEC” should immediately “issue a memo” to do what you want or change what you don’t like has ZERO effect. BrianOn Jan 30, 2023, at 4:47 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches  wrote:
  

  
  
I don't think the discussion has forked at all.  A
solution to this problem, and it is the best solution all things
considered, including firefighter exposure to 10 ft of
conductors that I have a hard time imaging them being exposed
to,  is for the NEC to issue a memo IMMEDIATELY indicating that
this section of the code is no longer to be considered a
requirement and that the next Code cycle will eliminate this
requirement.
  
The other solutions discussed would only work for
a few configurations realistically and would introduce more
danger. Chris
  




On 1/29/2023 2:41 PM, William Miller
  via RE-wrenches wrote:


  
  
  
  
James,
Brian and others:
 
Thank
you all for the lively discussion.  I am always interested
in my colleague’s perspectives and this has been
illuminating.
 
It
appears to me the discussion has forked:  One topic is how
to deal with the reality of the new code regarding a very
narrow scenario: ESS inside of a residence.  The other topic
is: has the NEC evolved to be overly restrictive without
factual basis?
 
Regarding
the first topic, it’s in black and white that we must
provide battery disconnecting means for energy storage
systems located in one or two family homes if the battery
voltage exceeds 60 VDC.  There are very few areas that do
not adopt the NEC.  If you install ESS you will eventually
have to deal with this code requirement one way or another.
 
Due
to lax enforcement or unfamiliarity on the part of local
building departments, some of you may be able to skirt this
requirement.  This is great until something happens.  If
your non-compliant installation causes a loss, you will end
up in the defendants chair, not the building inspector.
 
Here
is how I approach these compliance conundrums:  If I could
argue the code does not apply or there is a good reason to
waive the requirement; if the building official agrees; if I
feel the installation is really and truly safe without
meeting the  requirement—only then could I proceed without
the disconnect.  Otherwise I am going to have to find a way
to comply.
 
As
contractors, each of you makes those decisions every day: 
What is safe enough for my clients?  If any of you think you
know more than the people who write the codes, then install
what you can get away with and keep your fingers crossed.  I
am not willing to live like that.
 
Regarding
the second topic: Are we being picked on by an overly
scare-mongering NFPA?  
 
What
is interesting here is that while most electrical codes are
trying to prevent house fires, this particular section is
trying to protect fire fighters after a fire starts (or an
earthquake happens or a dump truck runs into your house,
etc.).  
 
When
California first adopted roof clearances for fire fighters,
I got my feelings hurt because I was losing business and I
did not understand what it takes to fight a house fire.  I
spoke with a few fire fighters and learned about roof and
wall venting and how it is affected by prevailing winds.  I
came around to appreciate there is a real need for rooftop
fire setbacks.  
 
It
is self-evident why firefighters would not want to cut into
a wall with a demo saw if there are energized, high amperage
conductors in or on that wall.  This code requirement for
battery disconnecting means is fundamentally sensible.  That
ends the discussion for me.
 
Oh,
yeah, the charge controller blowing up thing:  Does anyone
have any factual data to share on this?  Regardless of that,
does it really matter if the charge controller is saved but
the house burns down?
 
The
islanding