Re: [RE-wrenches] Hawaiian Tie in
The Feeder Tap is our preferred method when available. However, I think you will find engineers who disagree that the tap can occur anywhere along the feeder. In my experience, PEs want to see that tap done with the downstream OCPD close to the tap. We would normally tap immediately before the subpanel OCPD within the subpanel. We use a "sum of breakers" and "120%" rule in combination for many situations with meter/main panels and downstream subpanels. I've heard this called the Hawaiian Mai-Tai and/or Mai-Tai with a twist depending on the scenario. The only issue I see potentially with Dana's Hawaii Tie-In example is mixing feeder conductors and service conductors in the same raceway (230.7). It's not completely clear what the intention is. I have seen some inspectors take this to another level and try to apply 230.7 to enclosures, but usually you can talk them through that unless they dig their heels in and consider an enclosure or cabinet a raceway. You might also need to deal with limitations in 312.8 regarding your splices. Regarding the utility asking how you can have a 225 amp panel behind a 100 amp breaker, what business is that of theirs, and why the heck not?! In Florida, once you leave the meter can, that's customer-owned equipment and outside the utility's domain. There are millions of 200A residential services with 225A load centers (bus rating). Maybe they are wondering how you can do it because it is MLO, but that does not matter because the bus is protected by the premises main OCPD. One other consideration is whether you can even do this. If the combined continuous inverter output current exceeds 80A, the conductors between the main disconnect and the subpanel would need to be larger than #3 because the subpanel is MLO and the backfed conductors need to be sized for 125% of the inverter output current (regardless of the 100A OCPD in the meter bank). And then the main disconnect itself would need to be greater than 100A, which would exceed the service rating. It's unclear what the actual inverter output ratings are in the example drawing. Around here, we are limited to 90% of the service rating by the utility, but that's a moot point because you can't exceed 80% of the service rating due to the main breaker needing to be 125% of the inverter output rating. I'm oversimplifying this because the utility's 90% rule is not directly related to the inverter output rating, but is 85% of the system DC rating (which is pretty dumb). Fun, fun, fun... Fortunately, we don't run into too many 100A services around here. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Tue, Aug 8, 2023 at 3:04 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Correct & The 225 amp bus bar gives us the busbar ampacity to accept the > 120 amp back feed (includes the 25% factor) > > 22800w /240v = 95 amp > > > On 8/8/2023 12:19 PM, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches wrote: > > I need clarification; however, here is my interpretation for you. > The utility feeds the meter and then the 100A breaker. > Then you want this 100A breaker to feed the 220A bus panel. > This 220A panel then supplies through a 100A breaker the house load. > The solar also feeds the 220A panel. If the solar exceeds 100A, and the > house load is small, the meter breaker will disconnect, losing power to the > solar and the load. > > On Tue, Aug 8, 2023 at 10:11 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Oh Wise folks! >> >> Attached is a wire schematic please review. & feel free to possibly use >> for yourself in the future. >> >> I am in a bind with an interconnection where I have an apartment 6 pack >> meter box with all 120-240v/100 amp breakers & assumed 100 amp busbars. >> The apts. were a mid 1970's original build. There are 4 apartment with 1 >> circuit/meter each & 1 house circuit/ meter for owners use.The breaker >> boxes are Sylvania (yuck). Originally I assumed a larger busbar due to 6 - >> 100 amp breakers & this was not the case. We all know about assuming... >> >> I consulted with W-2 who had assisted my lead installer in in the past >> from UT. He sent the following & though it makes sense to me, the utility >> is asking how I can have a 225 amp panel behind a 100 amp breaker. My >> response was that all we are doing is achieving a properly sized bus bar >> to accommodate the back feed. >> >> My Utility Idaho Power requires interconnection with a meter that has a >> load on it. Solar only meters are not allowed. This is for the owners loads >> only & he has 1 meter per apt complex at 100amps each. >> >> I am wondering if any of you have used this connection adaption to >> achieve a larger array connection & how it went? >> -- >> Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 d...@solarwork.com >> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374
Re: [RE-wrenches] Hawaiian Tie in
Correct & The 225 amp bus bar gives us the busbar ampacity to accept the 120 amp back feed (includes the 25% factor) 22800w /240v = 95 amp On 8/8/2023 12:19 PM, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches wrote: I need clarification; however, here is my interpretation for you. The utility feeds the meter and then the 100A breaker. Then you want this 100A breaker to feed the 220A bus panel. This 220A panel then supplies through a 100A breaker the house load. The solar also feeds the 220A panel. If the solar exceeds 100A, and the house load is small, the meter breaker will disconnect, losing power to the solar and the load. On Tue, Aug 8, 2023 at 10:11 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches wrote: Oh Wise folks! Attached is a wire schematic please review. & feel free to possibly use for yourself in the future. I am in a bind with an interconnection where I have an apartment 6 pack meter box with all 120-240v/100 amp breakers & assumed 100 amp busbars. The apts. were a mid 1970's original build. There are 4 apartment with 1 circuit/meter each & 1 house circuit/ meter for owners use.The breaker boxes are Sylvania (yuck). Originally I assumed a larger busbar due to 6 - 100 amp breakers & this was not the case. We all know about assuming... I consulted with W-2 who had assisted my lead installer in in the past from UT. He sent the following & though it makes sense to me, the utility is asking how I can have a 225 amp panel behind a 100 amp breaker. My response was that all we are doing is achieving a properly sized bus bar to accommodate the back feed. My Utility Idaho Power requires interconnection with a meter that has a load on it. Solar only meters are not allowed. This is for the owners loads only & he has 1 meter per apt complex at 100amps each. I am wondering if any of you have used this connection adaption to achieve a larger array connection & how it went? -- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 d...@solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here:http://re-wrenches.org List Address:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 d...@solarwork.com Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Hawaiian Tie in
I need clarification; however, here is my interpretation for you. The utility feeds the meter and then the 100A breaker. Then you want this 100A breaker to feed the 220A bus panel. This 220A panel then supplies through a 100A breaker the house load. The solar also feeds the 220A panel. If the solar exceeds 100A, and the house load is small, the meter breaker will disconnect, losing power to the solar and the load. On Tue, Aug 8, 2023 at 10:11 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Oh Wise folks! > > Attached is a wire schematic please review. & feel free to possibly use > for yourself in the future. > > I am in a bind with an interconnection where I have an apartment 6 pack > meter box with all 120-240v/100 amp breakers & assumed 100 amp busbars. > The apts. were a mid 1970's original build. There are 4 apartment with 1 > circuit/meter each & 1 house circuit/ meter for owners use.The breaker > boxes are Sylvania (yuck). Originally I assumed a larger busbar due to 6 - > 100 amp breakers & this was not the case. We all know about assuming... > > I consulted with W-2 who had assisted my lead installer in in the past > from UT. He sent the following & though it makes sense to me, the utility > is asking how I can have a 225 amp panel behind a 100 amp breaker. My > response was that all we are doing is achieving a properly sized bus bar > to accommodate the back feed. > > My Utility Idaho Power requires interconnection with a meter that has a > load on it. Solar only meters are not allowed. This is for the owners loads > only & he has 1 meter per apt complex at 100amps each. > > I am wondering if any of you have used this connection adaption to achieve > a larger array connection & how it went? > -- > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 d...@solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 "Responsible Technologies for > Responsible People since 1988" > ___ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Hawaiian Tie in
Does the utility allow line side tie in and then you should not need to be concerned about the 100 amp main as long as you have the wire size correct. Many utilities are not allowing line side tap however. Fun times On Tue, Aug 8, 2023, 8:11 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Oh Wise folks! > > Attached is a wire schematic please review. & feel free to possibly use > for yourself in the future. > > I am in a bind with an interconnection where I have an apartment 6 pack > meter box with all 120-240v/100 amp breakers & assumed 100 amp busbars. > The apts. were a mid 1970's original build. There are 4 apartment with 1 > circuit/meter each & 1 house circuit/ meter for owners use.The breaker > boxes are Sylvania (yuck). Originally I assumed a larger busbar due to 6 - > 100 amp breakers & this was not the case. We all know about assuming... > > I consulted with W-2 who had assisted my lead installer in in the past > from UT. He sent the following & though it makes sense to me, the utility > is asking how I can have a 225 amp panel behind a 100 amp breaker. My > response was that all we are doing is achieving a properly sized bus bar > to accommodate the back feed. > > My Utility Idaho Power requires interconnection with a meter that has a > load on it. Solar only meters are not allowed. This is for the owners loads > only & he has 1 meter per apt complex at 100amps each. > > I am wondering if any of you have used this connection adaption to achieve > a larger array connection & how it went? > -- > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 d...@solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 "Responsible Technologies for > Responsible People since 1988" > ___ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Hawaiian Tie in
Type 1: You’ll be limited to 100A solar because the Utility conductors you’re attaching to are 100A. The Utility tap needs to immediately go to a fused disconnect switch, generally within 6ft (sometimes 10ft) and within line of sight of the meter. Fuses need AIC rating equivalent to that of the Sylvania main breaker On Tue, Aug 8, 2023 at 8:11 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Oh Wise folks! > > Attached is a wire schematic please review. & feel free to possibly use > for yourself in the future. > > I am in a bind with an interconnection where I have an apartment 6 pack > meter box with all 120-240v/100 amp breakers & assumed 100 amp busbars. > The apts. were a mid 1970's original build. There are 4 apartment with 1 > circuit/meter each & 1 house circuit/ meter for owners use.The breaker > boxes are Sylvania (yuck). Originally I assumed a larger busbar due to 6 - > 100 amp breakers & this was not the case. We all know about assuming... > > I consulted with W-2 who had assisted my lead installer in in the past > from UT. He sent the following & though it makes sense to me, the utility > is asking how I can have a 225 amp panel behind a 100 amp breaker. My > response was that all we are doing is achieving a properly sized bus bar > to accommodate the back feed. > > My Utility Idaho Power requires interconnection with a meter that has a > load on it. Solar only meters are not allowed. This is for the owners loads > only & he has 1 meter per apt complex at 100amps each. > > I am wondering if any of you have used this connection adaption to achieve > a larger array connection & how it went? > -- > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 d...@solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 "Responsible Technologies for > Responsible People since 1988" > ___ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > -- David Quattro CA License # 954020. C-10, C-46 ph (415) 312-2661 www.quattrosolar.com ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Hawaiian Tie in
I have no experience with the Hawaii connection, but another choice for a tap connector is the Ilso GTA type with cover. You don't have to cut the tapped line and don't rely on piercing it. Brad Bassett Application Engineer (ret.) 1985 Solar Eng Svcs -> Applied Power -> Applied Power (Idaho Power)(incl: SES, AscensionTech, Alt Energy Eng)-> Schott Applied Power-> 2003 AEE Solar-> AEE Solar (Mainstream Energy)-> AEE Solar (Sunrun) 2023 On Tue, Aug 8, 2023 at 8:11 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Oh Wise folks! > > Attached is a wire schematic please review. & feel free to possibly use > for yourself in the future. > > I am in a bind with an interconnection where I have an apartment 6 pack > meter box with all 120-240v/100 amp breakers & assumed 100 amp busbars. > The apts. were a mid 1970's original build. There are 4 apartment with 1 > circuit/meter each & 1 house circuit/ meter for owners use.The breaker > boxes are Sylvania (yuck). Originally I assumed a larger busbar due to 6 - > 100 amp breakers & this was not the case. We all know about assuming... > > I consulted with W-2 who had assisted my lead installer in in the past > from UT. He sent the following & though it makes sense to me, the utility > is asking how I can have a 225 amp panel behind a 100 amp breaker. My > response was that all we are doing is achieving a properly sized bus bar > to accommodate the back feed. > > My Utility Idaho Power requires interconnection with a meter that has a > load on it. Solar only meters are not allowed. This is for the owners loads > only & he has 1 meter per apt complex at 100amps each. > > I am wondering if any of you have used this connection adaption to achieve > a larger array connection & how it went? > -- > Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc. C - 208.721.7003 d...@solarwork.com > Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374 "Responsible Technologies for > Responsible People since 1988" > ___ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
