Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault

[Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches]

We may want to distinguish between 4248 and the 6048, the 4248 has no
capability to connect to fortress and a viable solution is to set the temp
sender to77 degrees to peak charge the fortress evault max.
Fun times

On Tue, Sep 19, 2023, 6:43 PM Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> In my comversations with SMA, they made it clear they do not support
> closed loop comms with anyone at this time.
> YMMV
>
> -Glenn
> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.
>
> -- Original message--
> *From: *Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches
> *Date: *Tue, Sep 19, 2023 3:17 PM
> *To: *RE-wrenches;
> *Cc: *Kienan Maxfield;
> *Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault
>
> That's actually incorrect, Fortress totally does support closed-loop with
> the SMA Sunny Island inverters. Here is their integration guide. This has
> all of the instructions and coms wiring, etc. -
> https://learn.fortresspower.com/external/manual/sma/article/introduction-useful-links?p=dc8b9a9c1b3f410556835193e66f2257c662403dfb3da4056e618e954e8381d2
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kienan Maxfield
> Technical sales, Technical Support
>
> *Green-Go Solar Distribution*
> *kienan@dist.solar * 
> *(801) 631-5584 <(801)%20631-5584> (Cell)*
> *www.distribution.solar *
>
>
>
> --
> *From:* RE-wrenches > on behalf of Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches
> <%3cre-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
> <%3cre-wrenc...@lists.re-wrenches.org>
> *Sent:* Saturday, September 16, 2023 8:33 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches > <%3cre-wrenc...@lists.re-wrenches.org>
> *Cc:* Kirk Herander > <%3Ckirkh@vermont.solar>
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault
>
> Jerry,
>
> Who is the maker of the Blue Planet/Outback SOC box interface you mention?
>
> On Sat, Sep 16, 2023 at 9:30 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Mac, wrenches
> SMA and fortress can only open loop and with a fixed temp sender its fine.
> Now on the blue planet and open loop with outback, you need a SOC box that
> they can make for you, it will interface with the blue planet and command
> the genny.
> Fun times
>
> On Sat, Sep 16, 2023, 6:04 AM Mac Lewis  wrote:
>
> Hi William,
>
> Are you doing open loop or closed loop communication?  I'm not sure if
> Fortress can do a closed loop with SMA or not.
>
> We struggled to get the open loop to work well with some Blue Ion
> batteries, not from a charging sense but from a sense of getting the auto
> gen start to trigger correctly.  Basically, the SOC algorithm was always
> way off.  For a while we were using an external voltage trigger and we
> could get the generator to start OK before BMS shutdown.  We have since
> added a Namaka box and are using the "Ext BMS" setting for battery type in
> the Sunny Island and it has been working very well.
>
> I think the difficulty arises because the Sunny Island is so
> State-of-Charge centric and you can't manipulate the SOC algorithm without
> that Ext-BMS setting (and solid communication).  One weakness of the
> ext BMS setting is that it won't fall back on Voltage settings if battery
> communication goes down, but this is a weakness throughout closed loop
> communication for many manufacturers.
>
> Let us know if there is a Fortress to SMA communication solution.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 11:11 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> William, Wrenches
> Yes I do and it does require some basic electronics to make it work
> correctly, you will need to remove the ttemp sender and make a
> resistor pack to simulate the 77 degree reading otherwise it will not
> charge properly, for the first one I used a breadboard to set the temp for
> what I wanted to see then build a more solid state shrink wrap resistor.
> Doing this will prevent undercharge by the SMA and your customer will be
> happy to see the full state of charge at the batteries.
> OldSchool fun times
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 2:12 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Friends:
>
>
>
> I am commissioning an E-vault battery array to an existing SMA Sunny
> Island System.  Does anyone have any experience with this they could share?
>
>
>
> Thanks.
>
>
>
> William
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Glenn:



Thank you for that important clarification.  I keep mixing up the concept
of Fortress supporting the integration with SMA versus SMA not supporting
the integration with Fortress.



Fortress is all over how you make the marriage work.  When I spoke with SMA
to ask a question unrelated to the battery choice, I let slip that I was
integrating Fortress batteries.  It was like a switch had been flipped:
The telephone support tech almost hung up on me.  I was told that if you
are connecting Sunny Islands to Fortress batteries all tech support on any
subject would be suspended.  I needled the answer I was looking for out of
the dude but it was given very reluctantly.



This is very awkward.  When I was asked to bid this job I did what I
thought was due diligence by looking thoroughly at the Fortress site for
guidance.  I assumed if Fortress thought the coupling would be happy, SMA
felt the same way.  I must admit it reminded me of many of my romantic
relationships.  I got a bit of PTSD just thinking about it.



I hope this does not cause problems getting information out of SMA in the
future. Fortunately for me the warranty is long over.  Also fortunate for
me is the resource of the experience pool here at the good old wrenches
forum.  Thanks to all of you for chiming in.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Tuesday, September 19, 2023 6:43 PM
*To:* Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Glenn Burt
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault



In my comversations with SMA, they made it clear they do not support closed
loop comms with anyone at this time.

YMMV



-Glenn

Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.



-- Original message--

*From: *Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches

*Date: *Tue, Sep 19, 2023 3:17 PM

*To: *RE-wrenches;

*Cc: *Kienan Maxfield;

*Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault



That's actually incorrect, Fortress totally does support closed-loop with
the SMA Sunny Island inverters. Here is their integration guide. This has
all of the instructions and coms wiring, etc. -
https://learn.fortresspower.com/external/manual/sma/article/introduction-useful-links?p=dc8b9a9c1b3f410556835193e66f2257c662403dfb3da4056e618e954e8381d2



Thanks,



Kienan Maxfield
Technical sales, Technical Support

*Green-Go Solar Distribution*

*kienan@dist.solar *

*(801) 631-5584 <(801)%20631-5584> (Cell)*

*www.distribution.solar *






--

*From:* RE-wrenches > on
behalf of Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches

<%3cre-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
<%3cre-wrenc...@lists.re-wrenches.org>
*Sent:* Saturday, September 16, 2023 8:33 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches >
<%3cre-wrenc...@lists.re-wrenches.org>
*Cc:* Kirk Herander >
<%3ckirkh@vermont.solar>
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault



Jerry,



Who is the maker of the Blue Planet/Outback SOC box interface you mention?



On Sat, Sep 16, 2023 at 9:30 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

Mac, wrenches

SMA and fortress can only open loop and with a fixed temp sender its fine.
Now on the blue planet and open loop with outback, you need a SOC box that
they can make for you, it will interface with the blue planet and command
the genny.

Fun times



On Sat, Sep 16, 2023, 6:04 AM Mac Lewis  wrote:

Hi William,



Are you doing open loop or closed loop communication?  I'm not sure if
Fortress can do a closed loop with SMA or not.



We struggled to get the open loop to work well with some Blue Ion
batteries, not from a charging sense but from a sense of getting the auto
gen start to trigger correctly.  Basically, the SOC algorithm was always
way off.  For a while we were using an external voltage trigger and we
could get the generator to start OK before BMS shutdown.  We have since
added a Namaka box and are using the "Ext BMS" setting for battery type in
the Sunny Island and it has been working very well.



I think the difficulty arises because the Sunny Island is so
State-of-Charge centric and you can't manipulate the SOC algorithm without
that Ext-BMS setting (and solid communication).  One weakness of the
ext BMS setting is that it won't fall back on Voltage settings if battery
communication goes down, but this is a weakness throughout closed loop
communication for many manufacturers.



Let us know if there is a Fortress to SMA communication solution.











On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 11:11 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

William, Wrenches

Yes I do and it does require some basic electronics to make it work
correctly, you will need to remove the ttemp sender and make a
resistor pack to simulate the 77 degree reading 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault

[Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches]

In my comversations with SMA, they made it clear they do not support closed 
loop comms with anyone at this time.YMMV-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so 
please excuse typos and spelling errors.-- Original message--From: 
Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenchesDate: Tue, Sep 19, 2023 3:17 PMTo: 
RE-wrenches;Cc: Kienan Maxfield;Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress 
E-vault

That's actually incorrect, Fortress totally does support closed-loop with the 
SMA Sunny Island inverters. Here is their integration guide. This has all of 
the instructions and coms wiring, etc. - 
https://learn.fortresspower.com/external/manual/sma/article/introduction-useful-links?p=dc8b9a9c1b3f410556835193e66f2257c662403dfb3da4056e618e954e8381d2






Thanks,



Kienan Maxfield
Technical sales, Technical Support


Green-Go Solar Distribution

kienan@dist.solar

(801) 631-5584 (Cell)

www.distribution.solar
















From: RE-wrenches > on behalf of Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches >
Sent: Saturday,
 September 16, 2023 8:33 AM
To: RE-wrenches >
Cc: Kirk Herander >
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault
 


Jerry, 


Who is the maker of the Blue Planet/Outback SOC box interface you mention?


On Sat, Sep 16, 2023 at 9:30 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


Mac, wrenches 
SMA and fortress can only open loop and with a fixed temp sender its fine. Now 
on the blue planet and open loop with outback, you need a SOC box that they can 
make for you, it will interface with the blue planet and command the genny.
Fun times



On Sat, Sep 16, 2023, 6:04 AM Mac Lewis  wrote:


Hi William,


Are you doing open loop or closed loop communication?  I'm not sure if Fortress 
can do a closed loop with SMA or not.


We struggled to get the open loop to work well with some Blue Ion batteries, 
not from a charging sense but from a sense of getting the auto gen start to 
trigger correctly.  Basically, the SOC algorithm was
 always way off.  For a while we were using an
 external voltage trigger and we could get the generator to start OK before BMS 
shutdown.  We have since added a Namaka box and are using the "Ext BMS" setting 
for battery type in the Sunny Island and it has been working very well.


I think the difficulty arises because the Sunny Island is so State-of-Charge 
centric and you can't manipulate the SOC algorithm without that Ext-BMS setting 
(and solid communication).  One weakness of the ext BMS setting is that it 
won't fall back on Voltage
 settings if battery communication goes down, but this is a weakness throughout 
closed loop communication for many manufacturers.


Let us know if there is a Fortress to SMA communication solution.











On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 11:11 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


William, Wrenches
Yes I do and it does require some basic electronics to make it work correctly, 
you will need to remove the ttemp sender and
 make a resistor pack to simulate the 77 degree reading otherwise it will not 
charge properly, for the first one I used a breadboard
 to set the temp for what I wanted to see then build a more solid state shrink 
wrap resistor. Doing this will prevent undercharge by the SMA and your customer 
will be happy to see the full state of charge at the batteries.
OldSchool fun times







On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 2:12 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:





Friends:
 
I am commissioning an E-vault battery array to an existing SMA Sunny Island 
System.  Does anyone have any experience with this they could share?
 
Thanks.
 
William
 
Miller Solar
17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com
CA Lic. 773985
 
 


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-- 

Re: [RE-wrenches] GT w/ BB

[Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches]

As does Watteredge.-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and 
spelling errors.-- Original message--From: William Miller via 
RE-wrenchesDate: Tue, Sep 19, 2023 2:09 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: William 
Miller;Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] GT w/ BBStorm Copper has tables. William 
MillerMiller Solar.com805-438-5600www.millersolar.comOn Tue, Sep 19, 2023 at 
7:13 AM Jay via RE-wrenches  wrote:Thx 
MichaelHow do you calculate buss bar size?Is there a specific formula or table 
I can find?ThxJayOn Sep 18, 2023, at 5:15 PM, Michael Morningstar 
 wrote:I've been making gutter bus wireways that run 
the length of batteries and inverters allowing for exact lengths of cables. I 
think I posted a picture of an exceptionally large one. 24' long. I'm looking 
at the rack mounted set up because the bussing and cabling is done. 3 racks of 
6 5kwhr batteries. All I will need is cabling from the racks to a small (in 
size) bussbarO
 n
 Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 3:50 PM Jay  wrote:Sounds like a 
good design. As a tangent question to 13 parallel batteries, such as you’ll 
need Michael. How are people wiring larger numbers of lithium batteries 
together in parallel?Massive buss bars which I’m not sure how to do in a code 
compliance way. Or Not worrying about different cable lengths?Or Adding another 
conductor to the farthest batteries to compensate for VDOr Making all the 
cables the same length?Thx JayOn Sep 18, 2023, at 4:37 PM, Michael Morningstar 
via RE-wrenches  wrote:Jay, I'd like to 
design for 60kw supply and 100kWh battery. I think I'm going to try the 
Discover rack mount set up rather than AES's and custom bussing.Jason,That's 
exactly what I was thinking, if I go the Sol-Ark route. Last time I ordered 
custom panelboards like that, they were six months out.On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 
1:18 PM Jay via RE-wrenches  w
 rote:If 40kw is
 the peak and then there are new added loads, what 50-60kw?  If it was me I’d 
be designing the inverters to handle the 50/60 kw with future expansion 
capabilities beyond that. Then how much kWh of storage are you going to need or 
maybe are planning for?At some point maybe looking at a larger single inverter 
with high voltage battery vs 48v?I’m not sure if there are any 120/240 versions 
yet.  JayOn Sep 18, 2023, at 12:36 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:I like the Sol-Ark idea having had a 
few dual-unit successes recently. In terms of combining them, the Sol-ark 
manual has a good triple unit wiring diagram on page 53. You would have to use 
two 400A panelboards with three 200A breakers for each to follow this diagram. 
However, I don't see the point of a combining load center on the load side of 
the paralleled units. The Sol-Arks each have a 200A integrated load breaker, so 
why not just combine the outputs in a multi-tap connector
  or
 busbar? I think there is a code-compliant way to make that work, but I haven't 
studied it with three units.I would definitely ditch the SolarEdge inverters 
and just make it DC coupled to the Sol-Arks. You don't need these to be a 
failure point in the system, and the AC coupling will reduce the energy 
production in backup scenarios.It sounds like you would have to get the six 200 
feeders out of the meter/main and into a new panelboard on the load side of the 
Sol-Arks. So that's another required load center.And if money is truly no 
object, I would consider a manual transfer switch to bypass the inverters for 
service. I'm afraid to look up what a 400A DPDT switch costs.Jason 
SzumlanskiPrincipal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design GroupNABCEP Certified 
Solar Professional (PVIP)Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956On 
Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 1:14 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:I've been asked to build a back up 
system for a
  grid
 connected estate. We haven't done many of these and I thought it best to ask 
those who have some questions before I go about reinventing the wheel.Here's 
the existing infrastructure.1) 400amp Metered Main Distribution Panel with six 
200amp feeders to various sub-panels on the property2) 400amp ATS and 100kw 
Kohler rapid response generator 3) 20kw ground mount array with (2) SE 
Inverters located at the array. Feeder from array is 1,000 ft to Service. Six 
years old and wiring is janky.4) Data logging for the last year shows peak 
demands of almost 40kw. This could increase as several of formerly vacant  
guest residences could be occupied.My go to is almost always Schneider, however 
in this instance when I looked into a quad stack, or more It seems like some 
type of controller is needed to prevent imbalanced current passing through the 
relays during transfer. That left me a bit concerned. Has anyone successfully 
stacked 4 or more XWPROs?Then there is the matter of AC or DC coupling?
  I
 really want no part in having anything to do with SE. The inverters are 
already looking pretty weathered taking the brunt of the prevailing winds and 
storms (they 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault

[Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches]

William,

I'm sorry, I was assuming that people posting here simply hadn't found these 
integration instructions. If you have tried these and they didn't work, then I 
stand corrected. I have no personal experience paring this with SMA... I have 
some really bad experience trying to pair other LiFePO4 batteries with SMA open 
loop... I basically try to avoid The SMA Sunny Island products any more, but 
that's not always an option...

I'm curious if you know which tech support agent told you they've been having 
problems... I was actually giving someone a price to use Fortress with an 
existing SMA and if they want to go forward, I might contact my friends at 
Fortress and see if they would want to work with my client's system as a pilot 
to try to iron out the kinks...

Thanks,



Kienan Maxfield
Technical sales, Technical Support

Green-Go Solar Wholesale Distribution
kienan@dist.solar
(801) 631-5584 (Cell)
www.distribution.solar

From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of 
William Miller via RE-wrenches 
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2023 1:39 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: William Miller 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault

Kieran:

I have read the documentation. Fortress tech support said there have been 
problems and recommended open loop.

Do you know what parameters are passed with closed loop?

William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com


On Tue, Sep 19, 2023 at 12:18 PM Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:
That's actually incorrect, Fortress totally does support closed-loop with the 
SMA Sunny Island inverters. Here is their integration guide. This has all of 
the instructions and coms wiring, etc. - 
https://learn.fortresspower.com/external/manual/sma/article/introduction-useful-links?p=dc8b9a9c1b3f410556835193e66f2257c662403dfb3da4056e618e954e8381d2

Thanks,

Kienan Maxfield
Technical sales, Technical Support

Green-Go Solar Distribution
kienan@dist.solar
(801) 631-5584 (Cell)
www.distribution.solar




From: RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
 on behalf of Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2023 8:33 AM
To: RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
Cc: Kirk Herander 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault

Jerry,

Who is the maker of the Blue Planet/Outback SOC box interface you mention?

On Sat, Sep 16, 2023 at 9:30 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:
Mac, wrenches
SMA and fortress can only open loop and with a fixed temp sender its fine. Now 
on the blue planet and open loop with outback, you need a SOC box that they can 
make for you, it will interface with the blue planet and command the genny.
Fun times

On Sat, Sep 16, 2023, 6:04 AM Mac Lewis 
mailto:maclew...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi William,

Are you doing open loop or closed loop communication?  I'm not sure if Fortress 
can do a closed loop with SMA or not.

We struggled to get the open loop to work well with some Blue Ion batteries, 
not from a charging sense but from a sense of getting the auto gen start to 
trigger correctly.  Basically, the SOC algorithm was always way off.  For a 
while we were using an external voltage trigger and we could get the generator 
to start OK before BMS shutdown.  We have since added a Namaka box and are 
using the "Ext BMS" setting for battery type in the Sunny Island and it has 
been working very well.

I think the difficulty arises because the Sunny Island is so State-of-Charge 
centric and you can't manipulate the SOC algorithm without that Ext-BMS setting 
(and solid communication).  One weakness of the ext BMS setting is that it 
won't fall back on Voltage settings if battery communication goes down, but 
this is a weakness throughout closed loop communication for many manufacturers.

Let us know if there is a Fortress to SMA communication solution.





On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 11:11 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:
William, Wrenches
Yes I do and it does require some basic electronics to make it work correctly, 
you will need to remove the ttemp sender and make a resistor pack to simulate 
the 77 degree reading otherwise it will not charge properly, for the first one 
I used a breadboard to set the temp for what I wanted to see then build a more 
solid state shrink wrap resistor. Doing this will prevent undercharge by the 
SMA and your customer will be happy to see the full state of charge at the 
batteries.
OldSchool fun times



On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 2:12 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:

Friends:



I am commissioning an E-vault 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Kieran:

I have read the documentation. Fortress tech support said there have been
problems and recommended open loop.

Do you know what parameters are passed with closed loop?

William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com


On Tue, Sep 19, 2023 at 12:18 PM Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> That's actually incorrect, Fortress totally does support closed-loop with
> the SMA Sunny Island inverters. Here is their integration guide. This has
> all of the instructions and coms wiring, etc. -
> https://learn.fortresspower.com/external/manual/sma/article/introduction-useful-links?p=dc8b9a9c1b3f410556835193e66f2257c662403dfb3da4056e618e954e8381d2
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kienan Maxfield
> Technical sales, Technical Support
>
> *Green-Go Solar Distribution*
> *kienan@dist.solar* 
> *(801) 631-5584 (Cell)*
> *www.distribution.solar *
>
>
>
> --
> *From:* RE-wrenches  on behalf
> of Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches 
> *Sent:* Saturday, September 16, 2023 8:33 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches 
> *Cc:* Kirk Herander 
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault
>
> Jerry,
>
> Who is the maker of the Blue Planet/Outback SOC box interface you mention?
>
> On Sat, Sep 16, 2023 at 9:30 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Mac, wrenches
> SMA and fortress can only open loop and with a fixed temp sender its fine.
> Now on the blue planet and open loop with outback, you need a SOC box that
> they can make for you, it will interface with the blue planet and command
> the genny.
> Fun times
>
> On Sat, Sep 16, 2023, 6:04 AM Mac Lewis  wrote:
>
> Hi William,
>
> Are you doing open loop or closed loop communication?  I'm not sure if
> Fortress can do a closed loop with SMA or not.
>
> We struggled to get the open loop to work well with some Blue Ion
> batteries, not from a charging sense but from a sense of getting the auto
> gen start to trigger correctly.  Basically, the SOC algorithm was always
> way off.  For a while we were using an external voltage trigger and we
> could get the generator to start OK before BMS shutdown.  We have since
> added a Namaka box and are using the "Ext BMS" setting for battery type in
> the Sunny Island and it has been working very well.
>
> I think the difficulty arises because the Sunny Island is so
> State-of-Charge centric and you can't manipulate the SOC algorithm without
> that Ext-BMS setting (and solid communication).  One weakness of the
> ext BMS setting is that it won't fall back on Voltage settings if battery
> communication goes down, but this is a weakness throughout closed loop
> communication for many manufacturers.
>
> Let us know if there is a Fortress to SMA communication solution.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 11:11 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> William, Wrenches
> Yes I do and it does require some basic electronics to make it work
> correctly, you will need to remove the ttemp sender and make a
> resistor pack to simulate the 77 degree reading otherwise it will not
> charge properly, for the first one I used a breadboard to set the temp for
> what I wanted to see then build a more solid state shrink wrap resistor.
> Doing this will prevent undercharge by the SMA and your customer will be
> happy to see the full state of charge at the batteries.
> OldSchool fun times
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 2:12 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Friends:
>
>
>
> I am commissioning an E-vault battery array to an existing SMA Sunny
> Island System.  Does anyone have any experience with this they could share?
>
>
>
> Thanks.
>
>
>
> William
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
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>
> List rules & etiquette:
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> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
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>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
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>
> There are two list archives for 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault

[Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches]

That's actually incorrect, Fortress totally does support closed-loop with the 
SMA Sunny Island inverters. Here is their integration guide. This has all of 
the instructions and coms wiring, etc. - 
https://learn.fortresspower.com/external/manual/sma/article/introduction-useful-links?p=dc8b9a9c1b3f410556835193e66f2257c662403dfb3da4056e618e954e8381d2

Thanks,

Kienan Maxfield
Technical sales, Technical Support

Green-Go Solar Distribution
kienan@dist.solar
(801) 631-5584 (Cell)
www.distribution.solar




From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of Kirk 
Herander via RE-wrenches 
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2023 8:33 AM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: Kirk Herander 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault

Jerry,

Who is the maker of the Blue Planet/Outback SOC box interface you mention?

On Sat, Sep 16, 2023 at 9:30 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:
Mac, wrenches
SMA and fortress can only open loop and with a fixed temp sender its fine. Now 
on the blue planet and open loop with outback, you need a SOC box that they can 
make for you, it will interface with the blue planet and command the genny.
Fun times

On Sat, Sep 16, 2023, 6:04 AM Mac Lewis 
mailto:maclew...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi William,

Are you doing open loop or closed loop communication?  I'm not sure if Fortress 
can do a closed loop with SMA or not.

We struggled to get the open loop to work well with some Blue Ion batteries, 
not from a charging sense but from a sense of getting the auto gen start to 
trigger correctly.  Basically, the SOC algorithm was always way off.  For a 
while we were using an external voltage trigger and we could get the generator 
to start OK before BMS shutdown.  We have since added a Namaka box and are 
using the "Ext BMS" setting for battery type in the Sunny Island and it has 
been working very well.

I think the difficulty arises because the Sunny Island is so State-of-Charge 
centric and you can't manipulate the SOC algorithm without that Ext-BMS setting 
(and solid communication).  One weakness of the ext BMS setting is that it 
won't fall back on Voltage settings if battery communication goes down, but 
this is a weakness throughout closed loop communication for many manufacturers.

Let us know if there is a Fortress to SMA communication solution.





On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 11:11 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:
William, Wrenches
Yes I do and it does require some basic electronics to make it work correctly, 
you will need to remove the ttemp sender and make a resistor pack to simulate 
the 77 degree reading otherwise it will not charge properly, for the first one 
I used a breadboard to set the temp for what I wanted to see then build a more 
solid state shrink wrap resistor. Doing this will prevent undercharge by the 
SMA and your customer will be happy to see the full state of charge at the 
batteries.
OldSchool fun times



On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 2:12 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:

Friends:



I am commissioning an E-vault battery array to an existing SMA Sunny Island 
System.  Does anyone have any experience with this they could share?



Thanks.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





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Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org

List Address: 
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There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
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Check out or update participant bios:
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--



Mac Lewis


"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates

Re: [RE-wrenches] GT w/ BB

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Storm Copper has tables.

William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com


On Tue, Sep 19, 2023 at 7:13 AM Jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Thx Michael
>
> How do you calculate buss bar size?
> Is there a specific formula or table I can find?
>
> Thx
> Jay
>
> On Sep 18, 2023, at 5:15 PM, Michael Morningstar 
> wrote:
>
> 
> I've been making gutter bus wireways that run the length of batteries and
> inverters allowing for exact lengths of cables. I think I posted a picture
> of an exceptionally large one. 24' long. I'm looking at the rack mounted
> set up because the bussing and cabling is done. 3 racks of 6 5kwhr
> batteries. All I will need is cabling from the racks to a small (in size)
> bussbar
>
> On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 3:50 PM Jay  wrote:
>
>> Sounds like a good design.
>>
>>
>> As a tangent question to 13 parallel batteries, such as you’ll need
>> Michael.
>>
>> How are people wiring larger numbers of lithium batteries together in
>> parallel?
>>
>> Massive buss bars which I’m not sure how to do in a code compliance way.
>> Or
>> Not worrying about different cable lengths?
>> Or
>> Adding another conductor to the farthest batteries to compensate for VD
>> Or
>> Making all the cables the same length?
>>
>> Thx
>>
>> Jay
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sep 18, 2023, at 4:37 PM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> Jay,
>> I'd like to design for 60kw supply and 100kWh battery. I think I'm going
>> to try the Discover rack mount set up rather than AES's and custom bussing.
>> Jason,
>> That's exactly what I was thinking, if I go the Sol-Ark route. Last time
>> I ordered custom panelboards like that, they were six months out.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 1:18 PM Jay via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> If 40kw is the peak and then there are new added loads, what 50-60kw?
>>>
>>> If it was me I’d be designing the inverters to handle the 50/60 kw with
>>> future expansion capabilities beyond that.
>>>
>>> Then how much kWh of storage are you going to need or maybe are planning
>>> for?
>>>
>>> At some point maybe looking at a larger single inverter with high
>>> voltage battery vs 48v?
>>> I’m not sure if there are any 120/240 versions yet.
>>>
>>> Jay
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sep 18, 2023, at 12:36 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
>>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> 
>>> I like the Sol-Ark idea having had a few dual-unit successes recently.
>>> In terms of combining them, the Sol-ark manual has a good triple unit
>>> wiring diagram on page 53. You would have to use two 400A panelboards with
>>> three 200A breakers for each to follow this diagram. However, I don't see
>>> the point of a combining load center on the load side of the paralleled
>>> units. The Sol-Arks each have a 200A integrated load breaker, so why not
>>> just combine the outputs in a multi-tap connector or busbar? I think there
>>> is a code-compliant way to make that work, but I haven't studied it with
>>> three units.
>>>
>>> I would definitely ditch the SolarEdge inverters and just make it DC
>>> coupled to the Sol-Arks. You don't need these to be a failure point in the
>>> system, and the AC coupling will reduce the energy production in backup
>>> scenarios.
>>>
>>> It sounds like you would have to get the six 200 feeders out of the
>>> meter/main and into a new panelboard on the load side of the Sol-Arks. So
>>> that's another required load center.
>>>
>>> And if money is truly no object, I would consider a manual transfer
>>> switch to bypass the inverters for service. I'm afraid to look up what a
>>> 400A DPDT switch costs.
>>>
>>>
>>> Jason Szumlanski
>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 1:14 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches <
>>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>
 I've been asked to build a back up system for a grid connected estate.
 We haven't done many of these and I thought it best to ask those who have
 some questions before I go about reinventing the wheel.

 Here's the existing infrastructure.
 1) 400amp Metered Main Distribution Panel with six 200amp feeders to
 various sub-panels on the property
 2) 400amp ATS and 100kw Kohler rapid response generator
 3) 20kw ground mount array with (2) SE Inverters located at the array.
 Feeder from array is 1,000 ft to Service. Six years old and wiring is 
 janky.
 4) Data logging for the last year shows peak demands of almost 40kw.
 This could increase as several of formerly vacant  guest residences could
 be occupied.

 My go to is almost always Schneider, however in this instance when I
 looked into a quad stack, or more It seems like some type of controller 

Re: [RE-wrenches] GT w/ BB

[Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches]

For a general rule of thumb, I use NEC 366.23 "ampacity of conductors in
sheet metal gutters". For anything large or needing inspection, I have my
electrical engineer design the bussing as he will factor energy density and
temperature rise across the bussing. It's pretty straightforward for DC
bussing, whereas AC bussing needs inductance and skin effect taken into
consideration. It costs me about $1,500.00 to get a stamped design.

On Tue, Sep 19, 2023 at 7:12 AM Jay  wrote:

> Thx Michael
>
> How do you calculate buss bar size?
> Is there a specific formula or table I can find?
>
> Thx
> Jay
>
> On Sep 18, 2023, at 5:15 PM, Michael Morningstar 
> wrote:
>
> 
> I've been making gutter bus wireways that run the length of batteries and
> inverters allowing for exact lengths of cables. I think I posted a picture
> of an exceptionally large one. 24' long. I'm looking at the rack mounted
> set up because the bussing and cabling is done. 3 racks of 6 5kwhr
> batteries. All I will need is cabling from the racks to a small (in size)
> bussbar
>
> On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 3:50 PM Jay  wrote:
>
>> Sounds like a good design.
>>
>>
>> As a tangent question to 13 parallel batteries, such as you’ll need
>> Michael.
>>
>> How are people wiring larger numbers of lithium batteries together in
>> parallel?
>>
>> Massive buss bars which I’m not sure how to do in a code compliance way.
>> Or
>> Not worrying about different cable lengths?
>> Or
>> Adding another conductor to the farthest batteries to compensate for VD
>> Or
>> Making all the cables the same length?
>>
>> Thx
>>
>> Jay
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sep 18, 2023, at 4:37 PM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> Jay,
>> I'd like to design for 60kw supply and 100kWh battery. I think I'm going
>> to try the Discover rack mount set up rather than AES's and custom bussing.
>> Jason,
>> That's exactly what I was thinking, if I go the Sol-Ark route. Last time
>> I ordered custom panelboards like that, they were six months out.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 1:18 PM Jay via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> If 40kw is the peak and then there are new added loads, what 50-60kw?
>>>
>>> If it was me I’d be designing the inverters to handle the 50/60 kw with
>>> future expansion capabilities beyond that.
>>>
>>> Then how much kWh of storage are you going to need or maybe are planning
>>> for?
>>>
>>> At some point maybe looking at a larger single inverter with high
>>> voltage battery vs 48v?
>>> I’m not sure if there are any 120/240 versions yet.
>>>
>>> Jay
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sep 18, 2023, at 12:36 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
>>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> 
>>> I like the Sol-Ark idea having had a few dual-unit successes recently.
>>> In terms of combining them, the Sol-ark manual has a good triple unit
>>> wiring diagram on page 53. You would have to use two 400A panelboards with
>>> three 200A breakers for each to follow this diagram. However, I don't see
>>> the point of a combining load center on the load side of the paralleled
>>> units. The Sol-Arks each have a 200A integrated load breaker, so why not
>>> just combine the outputs in a multi-tap connector or busbar? I think there
>>> is a code-compliant way to make that work, but I haven't studied it with
>>> three units.
>>>
>>> I would definitely ditch the SolarEdge inverters and just make it DC
>>> coupled to the Sol-Arks. You don't need these to be a failure point in the
>>> system, and the AC coupling will reduce the energy production in backup
>>> scenarios.
>>>
>>> It sounds like you would have to get the six 200 feeders out of the
>>> meter/main and into a new panelboard on the load side of the Sol-Arks. So
>>> that's another required load center.
>>>
>>> And if money is truly no object, I would consider a manual transfer
>>> switch to bypass the inverters for service. I'm afraid to look up what a
>>> 400A DPDT switch costs.
>>>
>>>
>>> Jason Szumlanski
>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 1:14 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches <
>>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>
 I've been asked to build a back up system for a grid connected estate.
 We haven't done many of these and I thought it best to ask those who have
 some questions before I go about reinventing the wheel.

 Here's the existing infrastructure.
 1) 400amp Metered Main Distribution Panel with six 200amp feeders to
 various sub-panels on the property
 2) 400amp ATS and 100kw Kohler rapid response generator
 3) 20kw ground mount array with (2) SE Inverters located at the array.
 Feeder from array is 1,000 ft to Service. Six years old and wiring is 
 janky.
 4) Data logging for the last 

Re: [RE-wrenches] GT w/ BB

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Thx MichaelHow do you calculate buss bar size?Is there a specific formula or table I can find?ThxJayOn Sep 18, 2023, at 5:15 PM, Michael Morningstar  wrote:I've been making gutter bus wireways that run the length of batteries and inverters allowing for exact lengths of cables. I think I posted a picture of an exceptionally large one. 24' long. I'm looking at the rack mounted set up because the bussing and cabling is done. 3 racks of 6 5kwhr batteries. All I will need is cabling from the racks to a small (in size) bussbarOn Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 3:50 PM Jay  wrote:Sounds like a good design. As a tangent question to 13 parallel batteries, such as you’ll need Michael. How are people wiring larger numbers of lithium batteries together in parallel?Massive buss bars which I’m not sure how to do in a code compliance way. Or Not worrying about different cable lengths?Or Adding another conductor to the farthest batteries to compensate for VDOr Making all the cables the same length?Thx JayOn Sep 18, 2023, at 4:37 PM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches  wrote:Jay, I'd like to design for 60kw supply and 100kWh battery. I think I'm going to try the Discover rack mount set up rather than AES's and custom bussing.Jason,That's exactly what I was thinking, if I go the Sol-Ark route. Last time I ordered custom panelboards like that, they were six months out.On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 1:18 PM Jay via RE-wrenches  wrote:If 40kw is the peak and then there are new added loads, what 50-60kw?  If it was me I’d be designing the inverters to handle the 50/60 kw with future expansion capabilities beyond that. Then how much kWh of storage are you going to need or maybe are planning for?At some point maybe looking at a larger single inverter with high voltage battery vs 48v?I’m not sure if there are any 120/240 versions yet.  JayOn Sep 18, 2023, at 12:36 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches  wrote:I like the Sol-Ark idea having had a few dual-unit successes recently. In terms of combining them, the Sol-ark manual has a good triple unit wiring diagram on page 53. You would have to use two 400A panelboards with three 200A breakers for each to follow this diagram. However, I don't see the point of a combining load center on the load side of the paralleled units. The Sol-Arks each have a 200A integrated load breaker, so why not just combine the outputs in a multi-tap connector or busbar? I think there is a code-compliant way to make that work, but I haven't studied it with three units.I would definitely ditch the SolarEdge inverters and just make it DC coupled to the Sol-Arks. You don't need these to be a failure point in the system, and the AC coupling will reduce the energy production in backup scenarios.It sounds like you would have to get the six 200 feeders out of the meter/main and into a new panelboard on the load side of the Sol-Arks. So that's another required load center.And if money is truly no object, I would consider a manual transfer switch to bypass the inverters for service. I'm afraid to look up what a 400A DPDT switch costs.Jason SzumlanskiPrincipal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design GroupNABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 1:14 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches  wrote:I've been asked to build a back up system for a grid connected estate. We haven't done many of these and I thought it best to ask those who have some questions before I go about reinventing the wheel.Here's the existing infrastructure.1) 400amp Metered Main Distribution Panel with six 200amp feeders to various sub-panels on the property2) 400amp ATS and 100kw Kohler rapid response generator 3) 20kw ground mount array with (2) SE Inverters located at the array. Feeder from array is 1,000 ft to Service. Six years old and wiring is janky.4) Data logging for the last year shows peak demands of almost 40kw. This could increase as several of formerly vacant  guest residences could be occupied.My go to is almost always Schneider, however in this instance when I looked into a quad stack, or more It seems like some type of controller is needed to prevent imbalanced current passing through the relays during transfer. That left me a bit concerned. Has anyone successfully stacked 4 or more XWPROs?Then there is the matter of AC or DC coupling? I really want no part in having anything to do with SE. The inverters are already looking pretty weathered taking the brunt of the prevailing winds and storms (they are mounted to one of the ground mount poles). Seems like a great waste to pull out the 4/0 feeders and replace strings. My other hesitancy with AC coupling is that we would lose PV monitoring and control.I've also considered Sol Ark 15's, like three of them. We've got some SA systems under are belt now and the only thing I