Re: [RE-wrenches] Grid-tied Trace SW
Hi Russell, The Trace SW4024 can sell it's full 4kW rating without any problem. The GTI was developed to add an extra layer of anti-islanding protection in 2002. The units that were previously approved for grid interconnection were allowed to be grandfathered in for the most part, and continue to sell back. This would be up to AHJ. Rgds, _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Customer Care Center | Advanced Technical Support | Technical Support Engineer Phone: 866-519-1470 option #1 | Schneider Electric Support Center: +800-640-0770 Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 1660 Scenic Ave. Costa Mesa, CA 92626 How am I doing? Please e-mail my manager with any feedback at: jim.hou...@schneider-electric.com *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Russell Mueller r...@buffalosolartaos.com To: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 09/09/2014 07:43 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid-tied Trace SW Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Hello Esteemed Wrenches, I have a prospective client who has an old GTBB system using a Trace SW -- it was permitted and signed off by the utility way back when and has been operational ever since. It's a Trace SW 4024 that's feeding the grid through a Trace T-240 transformer -- I didn't see a GTI. All he wants me to do is replace his failing array (which would increase his array size from 1152W to 3300W) -- not pull a permit, not change the BOS other than to add a 2nd charge controller. The original question that lead me to write this post is whether the SW4024 can handle the full 4kW sell-back onto the grid -- I couldn't find any specs on that on the web. But the question I have now is whether the Trace SW is UL1741 compliant. I didn't think to do an anti-islanding test before I left the site. If it's not, then I'm thinking maybe I should insist that he change out his inverter for a modern one, or I'll pass on the job. If it fails an anti-islanding test (which I'll do next time I'm in his neighborhood), then the dangers are obvious, and I don't want the liability. What would you all do in this situation? Do any of you have experience with grid-tied SWs -- any advice? Thanks, Russ -- Russell Mueller NM EE98 Electrical Contractor, license #382671 NM ER1J Journeyman Electrician Photovoltaic Designer / Installer BUFFALO SOLAR LLC Taos, New Mexico 575-770-4877 r...@buffalosolartaos.com ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Grid-tied Trace SW
Hi William, Please remember the GTI is not compatible with SW models manufactured prior to 2002. Rgds. _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Customer Care Center | Advanced Technical Support | Technical Support Engineer Phone: 866-519-1470 option #1 | Schneider Electric Support Center: +800-640-0770 Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 1660 Scenic Ave. Costa Mesa, CA 92626 How am I doing? Please e-mail my manager with any feedback at: jim.hou...@schneider-electric.com *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: William Miller will...@millersolar.com To: 'RE-wrenches' re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 09/09/2014 09:06 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Grid-tied Trace SW Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Russell: I am curious, how do you perform anti-islanding tests? The SW4024 should work great with a 3.3 kW array. Due to battery and inverter inefficiencies you would never see the full 3.3 sell back any way, which is less than the rating of the inverter. The SW4024 was UL listed at one time but the listing was removed due to failure to apply the testing regimen properly, if I remember correctly. We were not required to retrofit existing installations by adding the GTI, only to add them to pending installations. Our utility lost a lot of applications during that era and years later, when forced to reapply, they accepted the SWs without GTIs. If you really want one, I have one in the shop I would sell cheap, but I don’t have much faith in the design. Lastly, I can’t comment on the efficiency of the SW versus a modern GTBB inverter. That question would justify some research. If the SW is significantly less efficient than, say, a Sunny Island, the impetus may be there to upgrade. William Miller Lic 773985 millersolar.com 805-438-5600 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Russell Mueller Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2014 7:43 AM To: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid-tied Trace SW Hello Esteemed Wrenches, I have a prospective client who has an old GTBB system using a Trace SW -- it was permitted and signed off by the utility way back when and has been operational ever since. It's a Trace SW 4024 that's feeding the grid through a Trace T-240 transformer -- I didn't see a GTI. All he wants me to do is replace his failing array (which would increase his array size from 1152W to 3300W) -- not pull a permit, not change the BOS other than to add a 2nd charge controller. The original question that lead me to write this post is whether the SW4024 can handle the full 4kW sell-back onto the grid -- I couldn't find any specs on that on the web. But the question I have now is whether the Trace SW is UL1741 compliant. I didn't think to do an anti-islanding test before I left the site. If it's not, then I'm thinking maybe I should insist that he change out his inverter for a modern one, or I'll pass on the job. If it fails an anti-islanding test (which I'll do next time I'm in his neighborhood), then the dangers are obvious, and I don't want the liability. What would you all do in this situation? Do any of you have experience with grid-tied SWs -- any advice? Thanks, Russ -- Russell Mueller NM EE98 Electrical Contractor, license #382671 NM ER1J Journeyman Electrician Photovoltaic Designer / Installer BUFFALO SOLAR LLC Taos, New Mexico 575-770-4877 r...@buffalosolartaos.com __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] trace SW plus fan
Hi Jay, The SWPlus has 2 fans, like the standard SW. Fairly straight forward to replace (drill out pop rivets thru cross member), but it has a different part # 460-0003-01-01. I will email off list with contact # for price and availability. Specs, in case you wish to source elsewhere : FAN, BOX, 135.5CFM/12VDC/3000RPM Rgds, _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Customer Care Center | Advanced Technical Support | Technical Support Engineer Phone: 866-519-1470 option #1 | Schneider Electric Support Center: +800-640-0770 Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 1660 Scenic Ave. Costa Mesa, CA 92626 How am I doing? Please e-mail my manager with any feedback at: jim.hou...@schneider-electric.com *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: jay peltz j...@asis.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 09/07/2014 07:08 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] trace SW plus fan Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Hi All, I have a client with a SW Plus with a bad fan. He wants it replaced ( I know I know, but the fan, not the unit!) as its affecting battery charging rates. I've never done the Plus and don't know what the inside looks like, and therefore what I need or how hard/easy it is to replace the fan/s Done plenty of SW's though. Any help on this one? thanks jay peltz power ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trace SW4024 LCD display problem
Hi Larry, We may still have a few display boards left. Call in to the number below and we can check P A. Rgds, Eric _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Customer Care Center | Advanced Technical Support | Technical Support Engineer Phone: 866-519-1470 option #1 | Schneider Electric Support Center: +800-640-0770 Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 1660 Scenic Ave. Costa Mesa, CA 92626 How am I doing? Please e-mail my manager with any feedback at: jim.hou...@schneider-electric.com *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Larry Crutcher,Starlight Solar Power Systems la...@starlightsolar.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 06/27/2014 03:34 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace SW4024 LCD display problem Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org I am looking for someone that can repair the SW4024 LCD control. The display is getting to dim to view. Thank you, Larry ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Modified sine deterioration
Hi Drake, Motor loads with control circuitry tend to have problems with MSW (phase detection or zero crossing). There are plenty of motor loads out there that are powered by modified sine wave, so it is not a hard fast rule that all motor loads have problems with MSW. You can look at the waveform on a scope. Under no load, it should have the appearance of a square wave with a ground-level step between each 1/2 cycle. Although the DR incorporated a robust design with good surge capability, they typically fail due to control board or AC board related issues. They are technically still repairable, although parts supplies are dwindling. The cost of true sine wave inverters has come down significantly in recent years. That way you don't need to worry about compatibility. Rgds, _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Customer Care Center | Advanced Technical Support | Technical Support Engineer Phone: 866-519-1470 option #1 | Schneider Electric Support Center: +800-640-0770 Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 1660 Scenic Ave. Costa Mesa, CA 92626 How am I doing? Please e-mail my manager with any feedback at: jim.hou...@schneider-electric.com *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 05/20/2014 07:24 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Modified sine deterioration Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Hello Wrenches, We are diagnosing a system with a 20 year old Trace DR 1512 inverter. Recently a motor burned out that had been running on the system. I do understand that modified sine (modified square) wave inverters are hard on motors in general. My question is, does the quality of the Mayan Pyramid sine wave deteriorate with time as the capacitors dry up, or for any other reason? Would the power quality be expected to have declined on an old unit like this? Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Charge Controller with Configurable Maximum Output Current
Hi Jason, Both the XW MPPT60 (865-1030-1) and MPPT80 (865-1032) models can have the charge % adjusted using the SCP (865-1050). Advanced SettingsCharger SettingsMax Chg Rate Rgds, _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Jason Szumlanski ja...@fafcosolar.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: 01/03/2014 11:38 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charge Controller with Configurable Maximum Output Current Sent by: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org What commonly available MPPT controllers have a user configurable current output limit? (other than Outback FM##) Jason Szumlanski Fafco Solar __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org image/jpeg___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] SW repair
Hi Brian, The fan drive circuit is on the control board. If the control board needs to be replaced, it could get pricey. Tekris Power Electronics in Farmingdale, NJ may be able to repair at component level, give them a call. 732-938-4996 Alternately, there are some former Trace techs that may be able to repair at a component level, you need to email them for a quote : phantompowerservices.com Rgds, _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Brian Mehalic br...@solarenergy.org To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: 12/04/2013 07:31 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] SW repair Sent by: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Howdy- Have a friend with stacked Trace SWs. The fan on one is running nearly continuously, so two questions: Anything in the settings that could cause this (it isn't related to the load, which is usually low and evenly split between the two 120 legs)? How about repairs? The concern is it will fail...I've never changed out any internal parts on SWs, and a few posts on the internet made it sound like the fan is a pain in the butt. Any reputable repair shops in the Southeast or east coast? Thanks! Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 IREC ISPQ Certified Affiliated Instructor/PV US-0132 PV Curriculum Developer and Instructor Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org image/jpeg___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Square D Disconnects mounted on the slope of the roof.
Hi Wrenches, There is no implication other than confirming how the disco is tested, and thus certified. It probably makes no difference electrically which position the unit is mounted, but AHJs may have differing opinions on whether this would be permitted. Rgds, _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Bob-O Schultze bo...@electronconnection.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: 11/11/2013 10:09 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Square D Disconnects mounted on the slope of the roof. Sent by: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Dan, I think this thread applied not to OCDs but to an unfused 600VDC disconnect can mounted on a roof which is less than vertical. Bob-O On Nov 11, 2013, at 9:21 AM, Exeltech wrote: Wrenches, There appears to be some misinformation getting into this thread. The trip mechanism within standard thermal over-current protective devices (OCP devices) is mechanically spring-loaded, and is triggered by heat. Eric mentions below that Square D breakers are tested in a vertical orientation only - the implication being that's their only UL certified position. If this were true, it would imply the breakers cannot be used in any other orientation. This would potentially limit the Square D OCP market to sub-panels and other enclosures where the devices are vertical. Inasmuch as the vast majority of panelboards I've encountered in my 40+ years in this industry have the breakers stacked horizontally, it would not be a wise business decision for the manufacturer to self-inflict such a limitation on their product. This also does not mean any such limitation (real or not) applies to all breakers. By way of example, OCP devices work in a horizontal position, stacked pancake style in a main panelboard, as well as vertically oriented side-by-side in a sub-panel. In either orientation, they are in full compliance with UL 489, (UL Standard for Circuit Breakers, Switches, and Circuit Breaker Enclosures). If an OCP device *was* positionally-sensitive, UL Standards require this sensitivity to be noted in the documentation accompanying the device. Further to that point, UL 489 Section 7.1.1.13 states: In determining if a circuit breaker complies with the test requirements, the device shall be mounted or supported as in service and tested under conditions approximating those of intended operation, except as otherwise noted. Mounting position notwithstanding, a greater concern would be the ambient temperature of a rooftop location, whereby summer heat would tend to make the OCP device more sensitive than necessary, potentially causing it to trip at an amperage below that of its UL ratings. While a nuisance, a more serious issue arises when operating the OCP device in cold ambient conditions, whereby the device may allow MORE than its rated trip current to flow. Per UL 489, OCP devices are tested at either 25C or 40C ambient. Again per UL 489, if an OCP device is to be used in ambient conditions other than those two ranges, the acceptable temperature range for that OCP device shall be marked on the body of the device. In UL 489, Supplemental Annex, Section 2, Subsection 2.3.3, mechanical vibration testing is conducted with OCP devices oriented vertically, horizontally, and inclined 30 degrees from vertical, with all devices energized up to 200% of the device rated current during the testing. Given the preceding, and per implication of UL 489 testing methods, OCP devices are NOT positionally sensitive. In conclusion, if you DO install a rooftop OCP system, and for proper protection, please ensure the OCP devices utilized are rated for the worst-case ambient temperatures involved. Regards to all, Dan Lepinski At 09:33 AM 11/8/2013, you wrote: Hi Kirpal, All Square D safety switches are UL tested in the Vertical position ONLY, so if someone is trying to install a switch in any other position other than vertical, that will be between them and the inspector. Hope this helps. Eric Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Square D Disconnects mounted on the slope of the roof.
Hi Kirpal, All Square D safety switches are UL tested in the Vertical position ONLY, so if someone is trying to install a switch in any other position other than vertical, that will be between them and the inspector. Hope this helps. Eric _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Kirpal Khalsa solarwo...@gmail.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: 11/07/2013 01:42 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Square D Disconnects mounted on the slope of the roof. Sent by: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Hi Folks!!! Anyone aware of minimum slope requirements for Square D 321RB disconnectsCan they be mounted on rails parallel to the slope of the roof like Outback and Midnite solar combiner boxes(down to a 3/12 pitch) I can't seem to find any notes stating the limitations in manufacturer documentation.. They are NEMA 3 of course Thanks in advance for any direction you can provide Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Renewable Energy Systems www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-218-0201 m 541-592-3958 o __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org image/jpeg___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Hidden freight damage
Hi Luke, Shipping damage is a direct loss to profit, so the carrier will want to have reasonable proof confirming they are actually responsible. Anyone can say it was delivered that way. If it is necessary to have the delivery person sit there while you unpack everything, so be it. Do not sign anything until then. Sometimes, the manufacturer may step up and cover shipping damage to keep the customer happy. Eric _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Luke Christy sgsrenewab...@gmail.com To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: 11/04/2013 08:47 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hidden freight damage Sent by: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Wrenches, We have been in business for about 8 years, and up until now, the shipping gods have smiled upon me, but apparently my luck has run out, as I've had 2 costly shipping nightmares within a month, and I'm just wondering what other Wrenches have done to protect themselves from the liability involved in trusting expensive shipments to the freight carriers. Here's my situation: I recently had a pallet of modules shipped, and it arrived with multiple broken modules, due apparently to careless handling,and having had something heavy set on top of the pallet. I have my freight shipments sent to a neighboring business which is kind enough to receive them for me, since they have many full time staff who are always available during business hours to fork shipments off a truck. In this case the forklift driver did not notice the damage (it was not immediately evident), and the delivery was signed for. However, upon picking up the pallet an hour later, I realized that the shipment was damaged, called the freight company immediately to notify them of the damage, and subsequently filed a detailed written claim. I just got notice that my claim was denied by the carrier, evidently without considering any of the photos or the written explanation I submitted with the claim. They simply cited that the shipment had been signed for without noting damage. It is clear to me that the carrier was responsible for the damage, yet apparently because the damage was hidden and the BOL was signed, they can leave me holding the bag for a significant amount of money. This particular incident could have been worse, but it is the first time I've had it happen and it certainly makes me worried about future deliveries. It suddenly seems like an unacceptable liability to have others sign for my deliveries without a thorough inspection. I asked my distributor whether the shipments have any insurance on them, and the person I spoke with didn't know the answer. So my $50 Ebay shipment is insured, but my $50,000 worth of equipment isn't? My insurance agent says that I can make a claim on my commercial insurance, but advised against it in this case, since the loss was only around $1K, and is guaranteed to raise my future premiums. I know that things get damaged or lost all the time in shipment, and I'm wondering how other businesses handle it. Businesses that do larger volume must have damaged freight all the time. Is it just impossible to get freight companies to take responsibility for damage that is not immediately evident, since they are acting as judge on their own behalf? Do you just refuse to sign the bill of lading until you've examined all the contents of the packages (this is a logistical nightmare in most cases)? Do you just chalk it up to the cost of doing business and/or make claims to your commercial insurance? Would appreciate your thoughts / experiences with this issue. Thanks. - Luke Luke Christy NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 CoSEIA Certified PV Installer Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO. 81144 sgsrenewab...@gmail.com 719.588.3044 www.sgsrenewables.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trace 2548 intermittent power problem...55 not 25
Hi Eric, Sounds like a bad control board. Swap the inverter and you should be back in business. Rgds, _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: SunHarvest e...@harvesthesun.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: 10/17/2013 11:28 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace 2548 intermittent power problem...55 not 25 Sent by: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org I was looking at a scratch pad note where I wrote 25 instead of 55...Yes, it is a SW5548. Definitely not set to Search...it's in On mode. I've checked error codes. No Yes messages. I am wondering about a firmware upgrade although I have serious doubt that will clear up the problem. I guess I will try the swap and see if that does the trick. On the genny, I try to stay away from genset service but I can definitely check some of the more simple items like check oil coolant. Thanks guys. - Original Message - From: Allan Sindelar To: RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2013 10:36 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trace 2548 intermittent power problem Eric, A Trace 2548 with automatic generator start? I don't believe there ever was such a thing. I suspect that you're referring to either a SW4048 or SW5548. If so, your first step is to check the error codes, some of which are found in Menu Heading 2 (for generator-related issues) and the rest in Heading 5. Any Yes message as you scroll through them is a good hint. This inverter is at least 13 years in service, likely more. Sounds like a pre-GTI Y2K system. The units are remarkably robust and reliable, but it may well have a glitch in the firmware or voltage/frequency sensors. The extra inverter is your ace in the hole, once you determine what the issue is. Allan Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder, Positive Energy, Inc. A Certified B CorporationTM 3209 Richards Lane Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 office 780-2738 cell www.positiveenergysolar.com On 10/17/2013 10:41 AM, SunHarvest wrote: I have encountered a Trace 2548 in seemingly good working condition. I was called out to troubleshoot a Grid-tied, battery back-up system with the following problem: - Upon loss of grid power there is about a 5 second lapse (no power to house) before the BB system engages. Power to the critical loads panel from the Trace is restored after the 5 second lapse. - After another 5 seconds the Trace will disconnect power to the loads. This on-off cycle continues until grid power is restored. After checking voltage S.G. values, I determined that the 11 year old batteries needed to be replaced and I assumed this was the cause of the Trace on-off cycling. I also found that half of his PV array had bad BP modules. BP replaced all of the modules under somewhat of a warranty. So, new modules, new batteries, and a new Outback FM60 charge controller. After all upgrades I ran through a simulated power outage again and the intermittent power problem persists! He also has gen support enabled - connection to an Onan RV Genset BGE NHE (??) - and when I start the genny from the inverter, by selecting On not Auto, the genset fires right up but only stays on for about 30 seconds before it too shuts off and enters a cycling between auto-starting from the inverter and shutting down. This behavior is beyond me. So, I'm seeking help from the pros. Anyone know what's going on here? The customer has another Trace 2548, unused, sitting in a box. So, if I needed to I could swap out the inverter and see if that makes a difference...? Eric SunHarvest (530)798-3738 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios
Re: [RE-wrenches] GTBB resistance
Hi All, Following this post with much interest, as this affects everyone that wants to reduce reliance on a utility grid that is already overburdened, If TOU metering was done away with, it would eliminate buy low and sell high, which is a wash when you consider battery replacement cost (due to excessive cycling). GTBB is an excellent way for individuals to do their part in conserving energy. The fact that utility companies are putting up such a battle is indicative of one thing.money (is there any other motive?). Everyone concerned should contact their lawmakers in Congress to pass a federal law so these utility companies will stop obstructing clean energy. Rgds, _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Dan Fink danbo...@gmail.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: 10/10/2013 11:22 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] GTBB resistance Sent by: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Ray; We always run a variety of made-up financial scenarios in our Intro to Off-Grid classes.we usually end up around 35 to 70 cents per kWh. Or another way to put ita monthly 'battery bill' of $25 to $120 depending on battery bank size, and how many years they pamper it to lastor torture it to premature death. The GTBB backlash from the utilities is just more smoke and mirrors.I'll try to get something up on HuffPost before I leave for Canada next week. Dan Fink, Executive Director; Otherpower Buckville Energy Consulting Buckville Publications LLC NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers 970.672.4342 On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 11:43 AM, Ray Walters r...@solarray.com wrote: Just to add to Phil's comments: I've been calculating total life cost of battery storage (KWH x cycle life x %DOD) and the costs are 15 to 35 cents/ KWH to cycle a battery. Its even higher for sealed batteries and Li+. It would have to be an amazing cost difference in the TOU rates to beat the battery cost plus all the losses of AC charging/ discharging a battery. I agree with Phil, as I've seen utilities obstruct solar since the 1980s. Unfortunately their attitude has still not changed. Its pretty dumb too; battery storage could help improve the reliability of the grid. You can't retire yet folks, we have another battle to fight. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 10/10/2013 12:13 AM, Phil Undercuffler wrote: However, arbitrage (buying low and selling high) is one of the lousiest economic models for energy storage. Yes, perhaps you can make a buck or two if the delta is big enough. However, that's like driving forty miles in your 4x4 to use a dollar coupon instead of shopping at the grocery store down the block. There are just better ways to make a buck. At the end of the day, what should matter in NEM is what generated the energy that is exported. The customer should be able to maintain their battery by charging from grid, solar, or any combination. The batteries are not a balloon -- energy used to charge them doesn't come rushing back out. Batteries are like a bucket -- if the inverter can only sell what flows over the top, then it takes solar input to begin flowing. Ultimately, it's going to take a chorus of voices to get the CPUC to tell the utilities to shape up and stop obstructing these systems. If people stay silent, the utilities get their way. It's your industry, it's your business. It's your choice. Phil Undercuffler OutBack Power 425-319-2821 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules
Re: [RE-wrenches] parallel stacking SW
Hi William, In theory, this would be possible, but you have to consider the 60A transfer relay rating, so if we are dealing with SW5548 (5.5kW) models, you will only add approx 1700W of power (per set) before nuisance tripping a 60A breaker. Rgds, _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: William Miller will...@millersolar.com To: 'RE-wrenches' re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: 10/03/2013 10:49 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] parallel stacking SW Sent by: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Mac: I approached this problem some years ago and posted about it on this forum. What I heard is that, yes, it can be done. The actual process is known by a few former Trace engineers and could not be divulged due to confidentiality agreements signed when Outback split off from Xantrex (or Trace, if that is what it was called at the time). If you know a former Trace Engineer, you might be able to wrest the information out of them if the stature of limitations has expired. Of course I was not satisfied with “this information is only is for some to know,” so I worked on the problem. My idea is to connect two inverters in series and then feed them into the AC1 inputs of two more inverters in parallel. Since the SW inverters can provide true “Gen Support” mode, the downstream inverters can assist the upstream inverters, therefore providing the gross power of all four inverters. See this page for a drawing.Look about halfway down the page for Cascading SW inverters. Now I have come up with some pretty strange ideas in my time, but I think this is one of the more wacky, but actually possible solutions. I never had the chance to test this scheme, but I would love to know if it would actually work. William PS: Just as I was finishing this email I remembered the situation I was trying to correct. The other idea is here: Link I don’t recommend this technique for the reasons stated on the web site, but there may the germ of an idea that may work. It would have to do with feeding a transformer from opposite ends with paralleled inverters. How to keep them in sync… Good Luck, William Miller From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [ mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mac Lewis Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2013 8:01 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] parallel stacking SW Hi wrenches, I have some folks that I'm meeting in a couple of days that have 4 Trace SW 5048 inverters. It's a very large, older compound-style installation that the original installer has bailed on. They have it set up so that there is a common battery bank and each pair of series stacked inverters are independently feeding 2 separate 120/240 busses. One of these 120/240 services gets utilized very heavily, and one isn't really used at all. Is it possible with this type of inverter, to have all four inverters feeding a common AC bus, two feed Phase A and the other two feeding phase B? I know that is possible to series stack and to parallel stack this inverter, but can you do both at the same time? If so, does anyone have a pin out to a parallel stacking cable? Thanks in advance -- Mac Lewis Yo solo sé que no sé nada. -Sócrates No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4142 / Virus Database: 3604/6704 - Release Date: 09/27/13 __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org image/jpeg___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trace SWs in Energy Management Mode
Hi Brian, LBX would be better for the way this customer is using the system, because it only connects to the grid when the batteries get low. Unfortunately, the timers do not affect LBX, so charging may occur during the peak rateor it may not :C) Rgds, _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Brian Mehalic br...@solarenergy.org To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: 10/04/2013 12:04 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace SWs in Energy Management Mode Sent by: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Have a friend that is on an electric co-op where peak $/kWh is 4x the off-peak rate. Peak hours are 6-10 am in the winter and 12-6 pm in the summer. He has relocated an older system from his previous house to his new one; circuits were separated out to sub-panel that is connected to the inverter AC output. The reinstallation is very professional. Two Trace SW4024 in series (04/96) 120/240 Vac Grid connected to AC1 of each inverter 575 Ah battery bank Two C40s with digital displays, ~ 4.5 kW STC array total Trimetric The goal is to not use any utility energy during peak times, unless the low battery voltage setting is reached, and in general to run as an off-grid system, minimizing charge time from the grid during off-peak hours as well. The assumption (I know it's a tough one, but I'm coming in after the transition) is that the PV array should at least be able to provide the bulk of the load; using the grid to charge the batteries to ensure they are regularly filled and to maximize their life expectancy. The customer is also managing loads actively. It's been a few years, but I used to work on these all the time; however it was usually off-grid with a genset, or fixing poorly maintained Y2K systems which were always in float. I'm attempting to use the energy management mode. Inverter settings: Clocks: Time is accurate Grid AC1 amps AC: 60 Max charge amps AC: 10 (each inverter) Grid usage: FLT Set start charge time: 23:00 Start bulk time: 23:10 Set end charge time: 05:00 Set float volts DC: 25.4 Bulk volts DC: 28.8 Absorb time: 1.5 hours Low battery cut-out: 22 Low battery cut-in: 25.4 Okay, programmed the system, both inverters are inverting, AC1 is blinking green, looks good. Then a well pump kicks on, registers 70 A DC on the Trimetric. This causes inverter 1 to go into bulk charging and pass through about 10 additional amps from the grid to the load (inverter 2 continued to inverter about 10 amps for the load). Inverter 1 soon cycled into float, then went back to what invertering (amber light) and green blinking AC1 (which is what I want it to be at). Had to leave, both the customer and I had other obligations. He took a picture of the inverter sat 11:15 pm, and they were in bulk, battery voltage rising...exactly as planned. But then in the next set of pictures, taken at 7 am, after the end of the charge time, they were in float, not inverting, even though, based on the Trimetric readings at 11 (64%, 85A charging), and the fact that charging would have been active all night, they were not in anyway at a low voltage condition (Trimetric readings am readings were 85%, trickle charge, 25.6 V). Something seems amiss. Any suggestions or insight? Thanks! Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 IREC ISPQ Certified Affiliated Instructor/PV US-0132 PV Curriculum Developer and Instructor Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org image/jpeg___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trace SWs in Energy Management Mode
Hi Brian, That is the issue.LBX mode is the only way the SW can disconnect from a qualified source of AC, thus maximizing solar production. The best way is to get approved to sell, which probably won't happen with an inverter that old. Rgds, _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Brian Mehalic br...@solarenergy.org To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: 10/04/2013 01:39 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trace SWs in Energy Management Mode Sent by: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Thanks, I was thinking about using LBX, but the customer is really not too excited about it. And based on the manual, Energy Management Mode seems like it fits the bill, but it doesn't seem to be going back into stand-alone/inverter mode when the timer is supossed to turn off. Brian Mehalic NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59 IREC ISPQ Certified Affiliated Instructor/PV US-0132 PV Curriculum Developer and Instructor Solar Energy International http://www.solarenergy.org On Fri, Oct 4, 2013 at 3:42 PM, eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com wrote: Hi Brian, LBX would be better for the way this customer is using the system, because it only connects to the grid when the batteries get low. Unfortunately, the timers do not affect LBX, so charging may occur during the peak rateor it may not :C) Rgds, _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Brian Mehalic br...@solarenergy.org To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: 10/04/2013 12:04 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace SWs in Energy Management Mode Sent by: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Have a friend that is on an electric co-op where peak $/kWh is 4x the off-peak rate. Peak hours are 6-10 am in the winter and 12-6 pm in the summer. He has relocated an older system from his previous house to his new one; circuits were separated out to sub-panel that is connected to the inverter AC output. The reinstallation is very professional. Two Trace SW4024 in series (04/96) 120/240 Vac Grid connected to AC1 of each inverter 575 Ah battery bank Two C40s with digital displays, ~ 4.5 kW STC array total Trimetric The goal is to not use any utility energy during peak times, unless the low battery voltage setting is reached, and in general to run as an off-grid system, minimizing charge time from the grid during off-peak hours as well. The assumption (I know it's a tough one, but I'm coming in after the transition) is that the PV array should at least be able to provide the bulk of the load; using the grid to charge the batteries to ensure they are regularly filled and to maximize their life expectancy. The customer is also managing loads actively. It's been a few years, but I used to work on these all the time; however it was usually off-grid with a genset, or fixing poorly maintained Y2K systems which were always in float. I'm attempting to use the energy management mode. Inverter settings: Clocks: Time is accurate Grid AC1 amps AC: 60 Max charge amps AC: 10 (each inverter) Grid usage: FLT Set start charge time: 23:00 Start bulk time: 23:10 Set end charge time: 05:00 Set float volts DC: 25.4 Bulk volts DC: 28.8 Absorb time: 1.5 hours Low battery cut-out: 22 Low battery cut-in: 25.4 Okay, programmed the system, both inverters are inverting, AC1 is blinking green, looks good. Then a well pump kicks on, registers 70 A DC on the Trimetric. This causes inverter 1 to go into bulk charging and pass through about 10 additional amps from the grid to the load (inverter 2 continued to inverter about 10 amps for the load). Inverter 1 soon cycled into float, then went back to what invertering (amber light) and green blinking AC1 (which is what I want it to be at). Had to leave, both the customer and I had other obligations. He took a picture of the inverter sat 11:15 pm, and they were in bulk, battery voltage rising...exactly as planned. But then in the next set of pictures, taken at 7 am, after the end of the charge time, they were in float, not inverting, even though, based on the Trimetric
Re: [RE-wrenches] Search mode
Hi Jesse, With my XW4024, I have (2) GFCI recepticles within 2 ft of the PDP. I am required to set search to 90W before it enters search mode, but if I cut the breakers that feed the GFCIs, I can set search to min value (25W) and it will remain in search mode. Most folks do not use search because certain loads require continuous AC, i.e. the clock on your microwave, or a fridge,etc. The power draw in search is 8W, and no load draw when inverting is approx 25W. Hope that helps, Eric _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Jesse Dahl dahlso...@gmail.com To: Wrenches RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: 09/08/2013 03:39 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Search mode Sent by: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Hello, A friend of mine in the woods just put in a new xantrax inverter and is having a search mode problem. They can't get 25W search mode to work and are stuck with using the 50W setting. So they've had to put a few incandescents in to make this setting work. His calls to tech support have been less then helpful. Advice I can pass on? Thanks as always! Jesse Sent from my iPhone ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ image/jpeg___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Fw: Conext inverter
Hi Allen, Conext SW is available in 24V models only (not 12V). Rgds, _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com To: jay peltz j...@asis.com Cc: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: 08/28/2013 06:51 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Conext inverter Sent by: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Jay, No, it's the first new product since Schneider bought Xantrex and soon realized that they had to put in a lot of effort to develop the line that they paid way too much for. This series is intended for off grid and GTWB, is not able to sell back, is sine wave, 120/240, 12/24V only, to be marketed as much to the developing world as the US, and will be promoted as a lower cost competitor to Magnum's PAE. That's about all I know about it. Info is at http://www.schneider-electric.com/products/ww/en/7000-solar-off-grid-and-back-up/7010-inverters-chargers/61645-conext-sw/?BUSINESS=7 and http://www.schneider-electric.com/products/ww/en/7000-solar-off-grid-and-back-up/7030-monitoring/62089-conext-combox/?BUSINESS=7 . Allan Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder and Chief Technology Officer Positive Energy, Inc., a Certified B CorporationTM 3209 Richards Lane Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 office 780-2738 cell www.positiveenergysolar.com On 8/28/2013 7:34 PM, jay peltz wrote: HI Allan, I think you have me here. I was under the impression that this is just a new name for what is the old XW series? jay peltz power On Aug 28, 2013, at 5:24 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: Wrenches, When a new product comes out I usually wait for a few reviews on this list before using it. That would have been the case with the new Schneider Conext series, the low-cost 120/240 SW off grid unit. But I was talking with Tom Carpenter of Midnite about other issues and he happened to speak quite highly of the unit he was bench testing. So I'm asking: has anyone worked with this unit yet? What's the feedback, please? Allan -- Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder and Chief Technology Officer Positive Energy, Inc., a Certified B CorporationTM 3209 Richards Lane Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 office 780-2738 cell www.positiveenergysolar.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org image/jpeg___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW system stability
Hi Kevin, We have found that network (Cat5) cables shorter than 2m (6.5 ft) causes network reflections that contribute to network instability in multi-unit XW systems. Do not rule out a bad or intermittent network cable either. Also, confirm the inverters have the same firmware and the latest. It is not necessary to have the controllers in-network, but it allows Enhanced Grid operation, which does a better job of keeping batteries full when selling. For off grid, they can be in a separate network if you want to monitor them with a dedicated SCP, but you will need to supply network power for Xanbus (AUX port can be used for this). Rgds, _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Kevin Pegg kp...@energyalternatives.ca To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: 08/22/2013 10:18 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex XW system stability Sent by: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Hello Wrenches, Curious how others are finding the stability of larger Xantrex XW deployments? We have an installation with 12 Xanbus devices (4 x XW6048, 6 x XW-MPPT60, 1 x AGS, 1 x SCP) and it keeps crashing. Power cycle the whole system and it's fine for a few weeks and then it crashes again. I find with smaller deployments under 5 Xanbus devices the stability is much better, but still get the occasional customer call with a system gone haywire and a power cycle fixes. This particular installation is in the high arctic darn near the north pole and sending a tech up there next week to resolve. Needless to say, it's an expensive ordeal to get up there. Kevin ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ image/jpeg___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Assist
Hi William, In off grid applications, you want to have sufficient RE to keep up with load demand and only run the generator when RE cannot keep up. However, having too much RE is a waste because it will result in energy not harvested (if regulating), however, diversion controllers can allow the excess energy to be utilized (i.e. water heating). Running the gen up to the bulk level replaces approx 80% of capacity, and maximizes fuel consumption, allowing RE to get the batteries charged the last 20%. Automatic gen start capability with staggered start voltages allow you to target 50% discharge more accurately, and minimizes user interaction. Try to calculate the total daily kWhrs and match the demand with RE as closely as possible. Hope that helps, Rgds, _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Jay Peltz j...@asis.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: 08/16/2013 02:01 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Assist Sent by: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Hi William Thx helps a lot. I can only say how I do it. I'll give the client some options, including the change of appliances and usually the price difference makes the sale one way or the other. Funny reminds me of the old days, only with much smaller loads/$. Good luck Jay Sent from my iPhone On Aug 16, 2013, at 12:49 PM, William Miller will...@millersolar.com wrote: Jay: There are four systems in question. In three the loads are year round and one is summer only AC loads. The year round loaded systems have loads day and night. One is a highway maintenence station with at least 4 residences. One is a family compound with two homes with electric ranges, water heaters, AC units (I know its stupid, lord knows I've tried to convince them to change appliances.) One is an animal rescue operation with heater loads. One is a large home with 5 very small, very new, very sophisticated and frugal AC units I know it is silly to move these loads off-grid, but people do it and they will hire someone to work on the systems. It may as well be me, doing the best I can to use the resources as wisely as possible. William PS: It always happens like this: I get a call from a client with problems. Well, of course their expensive battery bank died and it died because of wasteful appliances. The prescription is a new, expensive battery bank and, at the same time, new, expensive, efficient appliances. They complain can't afford both and they have to have the batteries, so that is what they get. Repeat every two years. Sad Wm From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [ mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay Peltz Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 12:22 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Assist Hi William I feel it's impossible to discuss without more specifics. For example if the extreme loads are only every ( just run the genny) so often vs seasonal ( maybe AC coupling makes more sense vs cycling a extremely expensive battery 4 x day), vs year round vs what is do able etc I would be curious to know what some of the parameters are, as I'm sure others as well Jay Peltz power. Sent from my iPhone On Aug 16, 2013, at 10:53 AM, William Miller will...@millersolar.com wrote: Friends: We have been receiving a flurry of requests for design of off-grid systems where the loads are enormous, relative to normal off-grid requirements. It is obvious that the size of PV and battery arrays to power these loads is beyond what is practical. We have dubbed these systems Generator/battery with PV assist, or PV assist for short. These systems will cycle batteries multiple times per day. It is my understanding that the extra battery cycels will shorten battery life. Since generator run is expected, we are willing to increase generator run time in order to prolong battery life. The parameters I suggest are an aggressive load start and a very high battery start parameter. This will prevent deep discharge of the battery bank. I know shallow discharge is not the norm, but I don't believe shallow cycling is a problem as long is it as at the top of the voltage window, i.e. the batteries achieve absorption at least once per day. We know a load start ciuld result in an abbreviated run time, curtailing absorption period, but we are assuming there will be a battery votage start at least once per day allowing full absorption. Has anyone else considered these issues, and what conclusions did you make I am
Re: [RE-wrenches] Mouse pee in the SW
Hi William, Fluid intrusion can be very problematic and lead to highly erratic behavior, if not a complete shutdown. If an IC was internally damaged by moisture allowing for an undesirable current path, then a chipset may solve the issue. It may be a challenge to clean sufficiently unless you remove (unsolder) the DIP sockets (big job). However, if other components were damaged, it may require a complete control board replacement. We still have them available, if you want pricing, email me off list. eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com Rgds, _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: William Miller will...@millersolar.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: 08/15/2013 02:37 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mouse pee in the SW Sent by: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Friends: I had a mouse take up residency in an SW inverter (SW4024). It peed on the top circuit board and chewed on one wire, at least that we found. We have had this happen before and solved the problem by cleaning and drying. This time the mouse pee was minimal and cleaned off easily and what appeared to be throughly. However we can't get the inverter to work reliably. Sometimes it works and sometimes it does not. The overload light is solid and the error light flashes. The controls work on some menus and not on others. If I shut the inverter down it won't come back on. I take off the cover, look around, connect and disconnect ribon cables and it comes back on, only to go out a day later. I have a spare display and chipset. I am considering changing out one then the other. Any adivce would be appreciated. As always, I am very grateful to all of you. It seems I have been receiving more advice than I have been giving lately so I look forwards to the opportuntiy to reciprocate. Sincerely, William Miller __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org image/jpeg___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] SW AGS
Hi Eric, Sounded like bad batteries to me also (I think he called in this AM). He has (2) XW6048 units that are capable of 200ADC between them, and he also has 1260Ah of flooded capacity. DC Start V is set for 46.5V, so if we assume he was close to 50% discharge (depending on load), it should take almost 2 hours to reach the bulk voltage (80% replaced). His batteries were ramping up to bulk in just a couple of minutes, meaning the batteries were not absorbing the charge. I have heard varying opinions on the symptoms of sulfation, but it does sound like a battery issue (5 yrs old). He was advised to equalize to try and recover them (he has never done this), or replace them. Rgds, _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: SunHarvest e...@harvesthesun.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: 08/07/2013 12:39 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] SW AGS Sent by: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org I read through the archives on the XW AGS thread but have a query on behalf of a customer with an SW AGS issue. I'm heading out to the remote site tomorrow and would like, if possible, to show up knowing what I might be up against. The customer recently replaced his AGS for his two SW 6048s and then upgraded his firmware a week later. He reported that his problem with the AGS began after firmware upgrade. Here's the particular issue: AGS will try to start the 15.8kW Multi-Quip genny due to low battery voltage (event 306 DCV start). After about 5 minutes the AGS will stop the genny due to battery absorption level reached (event 313 ABS stop). The AGS will go through this event 306/313 cycle on and off until the homeowner shuts down the AGS. To me this sounds like bad batteries. But, the homeowner says this cycling does not occur when he manually starts the generator. This doesn't sound like a complicated problem but so far I'm unfamiliar with the SW AGS. So, I would greatly appreciate any insight you guys can offer me. Thanks!! Eric SunHarvest 001.530.798.3738 (Cell) __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org image/jpeg___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16s
Hi Allen, I am going by experience, not only with my own (4) Workaholic L16s, but when dealing with customers in the field. I would like to get some feedback from other wrenches on this. Maybe it is coincidence, but there seems to be a correlation. Maybe the taller batteries experience sulfation easier? Rgds, _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: 08/07/2013 12:59 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16s Sent by: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Eric, I kept this in my inbox for awhile, and finally had to ask - where did you get this information? I have never heard this recommendation - to charge a taller flooded lead acid battery to a higher voltage just because it's taller. I guess I see the apparent logic - more gassing addresses a potential for more stratification of the electrolyte - but if true, why have I never seen this in any battery service guide? What's your source? And has anyone else heard of this? Thanks, Allan Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder and Chief Technology Officer Positive Energy, Inc., a Certified B CorporationTM 3209 Richards Lane Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 office 780-2738 cell www.positiveenergysolar.com On 7/16/2013 7:53 AM, eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com wrote: Hi Drake, The L16 is quite popular in RE apps...but they typically require a bit higher charge voltage to reach the correct SOC than their shorter counterparts (i.e. T105 golf cart), because they are a taller battery (stands to reason .specific gravity). Make sure they are in a vented enclosure if off-gassing will be an issue. Eric _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org image/jpeg___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] SW AGS
It's an XW system.SW doesn't have event codes. Starting the gen manually just means it will keep running until he stops it. We need to see how much current is flowing, and what's going on with battery voltage. If you are going to the site, give me a call when you get there. 866-519-1470 Rgds, _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: SunHarvest e...@harvesthesun.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: 08/07/2013 02:08 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SW AGS Sent by: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Sounds like you talked to the right guy, that's his info...except that he has, according to what he told me, an SW not an XW. I'm assuming he's maybe at 50% capacity on his original 1260Ah bank based on everything he told me this morning. He did say that his bank will last him through the night and that he has some pretty hefty air conditioning loads. He also said he had equalized in the past but not in the last 18 months. I'm just not convinced that his batteries are shot. But all this battery talk may be beside the point if he's not experiencing the same on/off cycling problem when he manually starts the genny, right? That is, assuming the disco settings remain in effect regardless of start mechanism. Thanks for indulging me tocayo. Eric SunHarvest 001.530.798.3738 (Cell) - Original Message - From: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com To: RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2013 12:54 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SW AGS Hi Eric, Sounded like bad batteries to me also (I think he called in this AM). He has (2) XW6048 units that are capable of 200ADC between them, and he also has 1260Ah of flooded capacity. DC Start V is set for 46.5V, so if we assume he was close to 50% discharge (depending on load), it should take almost 2 hours to reach the bulk voltage (80% replaced). His batteries were ramping up to bulk in just a couple of minutes, meaning the batteries were not absorbing the charge. I have heard varying opinions on the symptoms of sulfation, but it does sound like a battery issue (5 yrs old). He was advised to equalize to try and recover them (he has never done this), or replace them. Rgds, _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: SunHarvest e...@harvesthesun.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: 08/07/2013 12:39 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] SW AGS Sent by: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org I read through the archives on the XW AGS thread but have a query on behalf of a customer with an SW AGS issue. I'm heading out to the remote site tomorrow and would like, if possible, to show up knowing what I might be up against. The customer recently replaced his AGS for his two SW 6048s and then upgraded his firmware a week later. He reported that his problem with the AGS began after firmware upgrade. Here's the particular issue: AGS will try to start the 15.8kW Multi-Quip genny due to low battery voltage (event 306 DCV start). After about 5 minutes the AGS will stop the genny due to battery absorption level reached (event 313 ABS stop). The AGS will go through this event 306/313 cycle on and off until the homeowner shuts down the AGS. To me this sounds like bad batteries. But, the homeowner says this cycling does not occur when he manually starts the generator. This doesn't sound like a complicated problem but so far I'm unfamiliar with the SW AGS. So, I would greatly appreciate any insight you guys can offer me. Thanks!! Eric SunHarvest 001.530.798.3738 (Cell) __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Fw: Trojan L-16s
Hi Allen, Now that you have me thinking.if you look at the charge recommendation for T-105 and L16, according to Trojan, they are giving us a range of 2.35-2.45V per cell @77degF. If there is no variable other than temperature, why the range? http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/PDF/datasheets/L16REA_TrojanRE_Data_Sheets.pdf http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/PDF/datasheets/T105_TrojanRE_Data_Sheets.pdf Rgds, _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail - Forwarded by Eric Bentsen/Canada/Schneider on 08/07/2013 01:53 PM - From: Eric Bentsen/Canada/Schneider To: al...@positiveenergysolar.com, RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: 08/07/2013 01:41 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16s Hi Allen, I am going by experience, not only with my own (4) Workaholic L16s, but when dealing with customers in the field. I would like to get some feedback from other wrenches on this. Maybe it is coincidence, but there seems to be a correlation. Maybe the taller batteries experience sulfation easier? Rgds, _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: 08/07/2013 12:59 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16s Sent by: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Eric, I kept this in my inbox for awhile, and finally had to ask - where did you get this information? I have never heard this recommendation - to charge a taller flooded lead acid battery to a higher voltage just because it's taller. I guess I see the apparent logic - more gassing addresses a potential for more stratification of the electrolyte - but if true, why have I never seen this in any battery service guide? What's your source? And has anyone else heard of this? Thanks, Allan Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder and Chief Technology Officer Positive Energy, Inc., a Certified B CorporationTM 3209 Richards Lane Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 office 780-2738 cell www.positiveenergysolar.com On 7/16/2013 7:53 AM, eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com wrote: Hi Drake, The L16 is quite popular in RE apps...but they typically require a bit higher charge voltage to reach the correct SOC than their shorter counterparts (i.e. T105 golf cart), because they are a taller battery (stands to reason .specific gravity). Make sure they are in a vented enclosure if off-gassing will be an issue. Eric _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org image/jpegimage/jpeg___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] SW AGS
Hi Chris, Stop absorb ramps up to the BULK voltage, which replaces approx 80% of capacity. Running the gen thru the absorption stage will allow for a full charge, but is a waste of fuel (most of abs is at reduced rate), and users want to charge the rest of the way with RE. The SW uses Absorption Time for stop parameter, but if set to 0 would accomplish the same as stop absorb. Eric _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Chris Worcester ch...@solarwindworks.com To: 'RE-wrenches' re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: 08/07/2013 03:17 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SW AGS Sent by: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Now there is a useful setting, just being a little sarcastic, this would be hard to diagnose. Was that available on the SW’s AGS menu too? Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP Certified PV Installer Office 530-582-4503 Cell 530-448-9692 Fax 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com ch...@solarwindworks.com From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [ mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay peltz Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2013 2:30 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SW AGS HI Eric, Sounds like the stop absorb might have been enabled. This will stop the AGS when the battery volts reach absorb setpoint. But has no impact if starting the generator manually. jay peltz power Sounds like you talked to the right guy, that's his info...except that he has, according to what he told me, an SW not an XW. I'm assuming he's maybe at 50% capacity on his original 1260Ah bank based on everything he told me this morning. He did say that his bank will last him through the night and that he has some pretty hefty air conditioning loads. He also said he had equalized in the past but not in the last 18 months. I'm just not convinced that his batteries are shot. But all this battery talk may be beside the point if he's not experiencing the same on/off cycling problem when he manually starts the genny, right? That is, assuming the disco settings remain in effect regardless of start mechanism. Thanks for indulging me tocayo. Eric SunHarvest 001.530.798.3738 (Cell) - Original Message - From: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com To: RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2013 12:54 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SW AGS Hi Eric, Sounded like bad batteries to me also (I think he called in this AM). He has (2) XW6048 units that are capable of 200ADC between them, and he also has 1260Ah of flooded capacity. DC Start V is set for 46.5V, so if we assume he was close to 50% discharge (depending on load), it should take almost 2 hours to reach the bulk voltage (80% replaced). His batteries were ramping up to bulk in just a couple of minutes, meaning the batteries were not absorbing the charge. I have heard varying opinions on the symptoms of sulfation, but it does sound like a battery issue (5 yrs old). He was advised to equalize to try and recover them (he has never done this), or replace them. Rgds, _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 Mail Attachment.jpeg *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: SunHarvest e...@harvesthesun.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: 08/07/2013 12:39 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] SW AGS Sent by: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org I read through the archives on the XW AGS thread but have a query on behalf of a customer with an SW AGS issue. I'm heading out to the remote site tomorrow and would like, if possible, to show up knowing what I might be up against. The customer recently replaced his AGS for his two SW 6048s and then upgraded his firmware a week later. He reported that his problem with the AGS began after firmware upgrade. Here's the particular issue: AGS will try to start the 15.8kW Multi-Quip genny due to low battery voltage (event 306 DCV start). After about 5 minutes the AGS will stop the genny due to battery absorption level reached (event 313 ABS stop). The AGS will go through this event 306/313 cycle on and off until the homeowner shuts down the AGS. To me this sounds like bad batteries. But, the homeowner says this cycling
Re: [RE-wrenches] BIG dual axis trackers
Hi , Deger 5000HD and Sentinel Solar make large trackers. http://www.dommelvalley.ca/data/DEGERtraker-5000HD-dommelvalley.pdf http://www.sentinelsolar.com/ Eric _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Chris Daum ch...@oasismontana.com To: 'RE-wrenches' re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: 08/01/2013 10:06 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] BIG dual axis trackers Sent by: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Dear people: Does anyone have a line on a really large dual axis tracker--something that would hold 25 or 30 modules in the ~250W range? I've seen some really big commercial units, but I have a client wanting a dual axis tracker that'll hold 25 of the Helios 255s. THANKS! Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 406-777-0830 fax www.oasismontana.com __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org image/jpeg___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] C60 setpoint question
Hi Allen, The absorption time is actually only 1 hour for the C-series controllers. Battery manufacturers are always the final authority on how their batteries should be charged. If they say you can charge at 14.2-14.4V indefinitely, then increase the float setting. Eric _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: 08/01/2013 01:20 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] C60 setpoint question Sent by: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Wrenches, Eden, our main off grid field tech, came across a situation about which I want to ask the group for advice, please. The system: existing old/funky off grid 12V residential system, done by others over many years; this was our first visit. Owner out of state, currently rented, owner's complaint is that the old Heart 2800 EMS inverter is shutting down at times. Six four year old Concorde SunXtender PVX-3050Ts, so 900 rated amp-hours in three strings at 12V. Approximately 830 watts of a hodgepodge of older modules, but well below rated output at present, though no obvious failures. Trace C60 charge controller. Our assessment after a site visit is that the batteries have been chronically undercharged and are showing signs of premature sulfation. With AGM batteries such as these, we have been encouraged (by Midnite tech support and others) to set really long absorption times - we have some systems with six-hour absorptions. The logic is that theese batteries can tolerate - indeed thrive on - staying at absorption voltage of 14.2 - 14.4 V (for 12 V nominal) indefinitely, and given the fickle nature of off grid PV charging, this maximizes the likelihood of their getting full most days. This logic makes total sense to me. Most modern MPPT charge controllers have a programmable absorption time, and some have a done amps (a.k.a. float transition current), to allow them to transition to float if the charge current necessary to maintain absorption voltage drops below a set threshold (typically 1-3% of battery capacity). The C60 has neither, but rather has a nonadjustable two-hour timed absorption. This brings the question: is there any good reason that the float voltage on the C60 should not be set to the same voltage as the bulk/absorption voltage, such that they never drop into float? When sufficient input is available to get the batteries full, they are just allowed to stay in absorption mode indefinitely, slowly getting the energy necessary to reach 100%. We have installed many Concorde AGM batteries, but never with an old C-series controller. This idea seems wacky, but the more I think about it, the more I can't see any problem with it. What do the rest of you advise? Thanks, Allan -- Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder and Chief Technology Officer Positive Energy, Inc., a Certified B CorporationTM 3209 Richards Lane Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 office 780-2738 cell www.positiveenergysolar.com __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org image/jpeg___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Tri-Star MPPT
Hi Jay, This has happened to me personally, and to other customers I have dealt with over the years. In my case, I got my hands on (4) used Interstate Workaholic L16 batteries. I was unable to achieve an acceptable SG because the voltage would not climb above 14V (using 20A charger). I used a clamp-on DC amp meter to verify a full 20A going into the batteries, but the voltage would not climb any higher. It was as if energy was being lost within the batteries. When I separated the bank into sets of two, the ratio of current-to-capacity was improved and I was able to equalize the daylights out of them, and eventually recovered their performance. I have heard of the condition where the battery has low SOC, and the charger causes the voltage to increase very quickly, but I cannot definitely attribute that to sulfation. It sounds more like an internal open circuit condition. I do know it usually results in the need to replace the batteries. Rgds _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: jay peltz j...@asis.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: 07/23/2013 07:33 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tri-Star MPPT Sent by: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Hi Eric, While agree with most all your assessments, Can you please elaborate on the sulfation causes the voltage not to climb? This is quite counter to what I have seen and what the battery people say? Thanks Jay Peltz power Sent from my iPad On Jul 23, 2013, at 2:48 PM, eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com wrote: Hi William, If the SG was 1.26, of course the battery voltage would increase quickly to 30V (which is high for warm weather, BTW). It has been my experience that sulfation causes the voltage NOT to climb. Especially when you have a very large bank, and a relatively small amount of solar. Sometimes it is necessary to reduce the bank size into smaller sets to equalize them and recover their performance. This method of reducing bank size is also effective to compare performance and weed out a potentially bad battery. Systems that have a lot of capacity, with a relatively small amount of charge current usually creates problems, because the load demand exceeds solar production. This results in batteries that operate with partial SOC, which is when sulfation is most prevalent. With (8) L16s, you have approx 800Ahrs of capacity (24V bank). It would take significantly more than 8A of charge current to properly care for a bank that size. Rgds, _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org image/jpeg___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Tri-Star MPPT
Hi Larry, Looking at the Rolls Solar Battery User Manual regarding corrective equalization, on pg. 9 line 5, it reads : If severely sulfated, it may take many hours for the specific gravity to rise. In William's case, the SG is full. This condition where the batteries do not seem to be absorbing the charge happens more often with sealed batteries. Maybe it is related to the degree of sulfation. Rgds _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Larry Crutcher,Starlight Solar Power Systems la...@starlightsolar.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: 07/24/2013 05:29 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tri-Star MPPT Sent by: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Jay, I saw that comment also. The more hardened lead sulfate becomes, the more resistant the battery is to the electrochemical process and therefore less current is drawn from the charge source. This decrease of load allows the charge voltage to rise more rapidly. This rapid rise is usually a first indicator of sulfated batteries. A healthy battery, charged at the proper rate, will always have a gradual, linear rise in voltage. Just FYI, I am a hands on guy and my experience with servicing batteries is somewhat unique to our wrench group having designed, installed and serviced many hundreds of battery systems. Lead sulfation and it's cause and prevention has been an interest of mine because it is so prevalent. Larry On Jul 23, 2013, at 9:32 PM, jay peltz j...@asis.com wrote: Hi Eric, While agree with most all your assessments, Can you please elaborate on the sulfation causes the voltage not to climb? This is quite counter to what I have seen and what the battery people say? Thanks Jay Peltz power Sent from my iPad On Jul 23, 2013, at 2:48 PM, eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com wrote: Hi William, If the SG was 1.26, of course the battery voltage would increase quickly to 30V (which is high for warm weather, BTW). It has been my experience that sulfation causes the voltage NOT to climb. Especially when you have a very large bank, and a relatively small amount of solar. Sometimes it is necessary to reduce the bank size into smaller sets to equalize them and recover their performance. This method of reducing bank size is also effective to compare performance and weed out a potentially bad battery. Systems that have a lot of capacity, with a relatively small amount of charge current usually creates problems, because the load demand exceeds solar production. This results in batteries that operate with partial SOC, which is when sulfation is most prevalent. With (8) L16s, you have approx 800Ahrs of capacity (24V bank). It would take significantly more than 8A of charge current to properly care for a bank that size. Rgds, _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org image/jpeg___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re
Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery bank during peak times
Hi Jesse, If the customer wants PV with battery storage capability, this can certainly reduce their utility bill. I agree that just charging off the grid during non-peak hours would not be very efficient, but when you add solar energy with storage to the equation, this can make a difference. Rgds, Eric _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Jesse Dahl dahlso...@gmail.com To: RE-wrenches RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: 06/24/2013 08:51 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery bank during peak times Sent by: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Hello, I was contacted by a local co-op about installing a PV system at their office. At first they wanted a straight grid-tied system, and after they received the bid they changed their minds and now want a battery based system price. What they want now is a system that will allow them to draw the battery bank down starting at 5pm during their peak demand time. Has anyone worked on or installed a system of this type? Thanks as always! Jesse __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org image/jpeg___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] generator support mode
Hi Lee, The MC version is similar to the standard SW, but does not have grid usage menu (no sell/lbx), and does not give AC1 priority (assuming both inputs are present). It will support the generator with battery power whenever the load exceeds the AC2 Amps setting in Menu 11. Eric _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: i...@solarplexus1.com i...@solarplexus1.com To: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: 06/21/2013 07:29 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] generator support mode Sent by: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org I have a project using an SW4024 inverter that uses the generator support mode with a smaller hydro AC generator. Worked well, but one of the to inverters died. There are plenty of new SWs on the internet, but all the new ones are SW4024MC2. Apparently the SELL mode does not exist in the MC2 version and Auto Gen Start is an option. Does anyone know if the good old generator support is available in the MC2 version, or has it been scrapped along with the SELL mode. Generator support mode--where some inverter AC output can be added to the generator AC input to meet a load larger than the generator could otherwise handle. Not just where the inverter backs off the battery charger enough to use full generator input for the load. Any insight on the MC2 version would be helpful. Lee Tavenner Solar Plexus ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ image/jpeg___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 690.55 - maximum operating voltage
Hi Bob, I would rather it be worded maximum normal operating voltage. Maximum operating voltage would be the recommended BULK voltage for the battery type being utilized. Equalization is a maintenance procedure, which is why it calls for separate listing. It must also include polarity of grounded conductor. Eric _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Bob Clark bcl...@solar-wind.us To: 'RE-Wrenches' re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: 06/10/2013 08:08 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 690.55 - maximum operating voltage Sent by: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org RE_Wrenches: Can someone tell me what is being referred to in NEC 690.55 when it says “Photovoltaic power systems employing energy storage shall also be marked with the “maximum operating voltage, . . .” ? We have an off-grid system which employs energy storage [i.e.; batteries]; so I need to know what exactly is referred to when this section mentions “maximum operating voltage” so I can put it on a sign. Bob Clark SolarWind Energy Systems, LLC __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org image/jpeg___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Damage
Hi Will, Flooded (or wet cell batteries) are typically much more forgiving than a sealed battery. Check S.G. (≈1.265 at rest) and load test. Equalize if necessary (if .05 difference in S.G. cell-to-cell). Eric _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Will White william.wh...@realgoods.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: 06/10/2013 05:23 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Damage Sent by: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Wrenches, I have a customer who’s got a 24V off grid system with one string of 12 two volt, 2000AH Power Battery brand flooded lead batteries. The bank is about four years old and has been working great except the customer forgot to water the batteries for an extended period. When I went out to service them the plates were exposed and I had to add about a gallon of water per battery. These batteries have a large amount of water over the plates usually so I’m guessing that about 1-2” of the top of the plates were exposed which is about 10% of the total plate surface. So here’s the question. The bank seems to be working fine, is it likely that permanent damage was done? Is there a good way to test for damage? Is there anything I can to do mitigate any damage done? Thanks, Will __ Will White Regional Field Operations Manager �C New England Real Goods Solar 64 Main St. Montpelier, VT 05602 Tel: (802) 223-7804 Cell: (802) 234-3167 www.realgoodssolar.com __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org image/jpeg___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] 24V charging with 60 cell modules
Hi Allan, The C-series behaves in the same way as if you were to connect the module directly to the battery, then watch a DC volt meter and disconnect/reconnect when the bulk voltage is reached to hold the battery at that level. It will hold at the bulk level for 1 hour, then transition to float. If left connected without disconnecting, the voltage would eventually climb to Voc (approx 36VDC). So, while it is not going to be as efficient as the MPPT controller in the bulk/absorption stages, once the PWM controller transitions to float, it will operate right about the sweet spot (Vmp). The question was making a single 24V module work with a 24V battery. PWM is the only way to do it, as the MPPT requires a higher PV voltage due to the use of a buck transformer. I will certainly pass on any recommendations for improvement to our engineering team, and I appreciate the feedback. Eric Bentsen _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: 06/04/2013 10:35 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 24V charging with 60 cell modules Sent by: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Eric, Please explain further, as what you wrote makes no sense to me. Mac didn't indicate whether he wanted to charge a flooded battery (~29.2V) or sealed (~28.4V). The C-series of PWM controllers has a fixed two-hour absorption, which it only counts down once the bulk voltage is reached. If the bulk voltage setpoint is above the MPP of the module, as it is in this case, how can it ever reach float, as you suggest? And further, this is spec-sheet calculation. In all but the coldest winter weather, the Vmp of the module will be lower still as the module temperature rises above 25ºC, and is likely to be even below the float voltage in hot weather. And in the winter, if the battery is also cold, it will need a higher voltage still to get fully charged. So I'm with Bob-O on this one. You can't charge a 24V battery with a 20V module. Please tell us how I'm wrong. Thanks, Allan P.S. - And while I'm on a virtual roll, please tell your engineering folks to build a charge controller with a higher voltage input window. I don't mean 600 volts at $1,500 or whatever it is; just higher than 150V. On a 48V system, we're stuck with series strings of three modules if we use the lowest-cost-per-watt 60-cell modules. That means that systems have to be designed with arrays in ~750-watt increments. Give us another 50-100V or so of headroom, so we can design with strings in multiples of 3, 4, or 5. Outback, are you listening too? The Midnite Classic does this for us... Thanks. Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder and Chief Technology Officer Positive Energy, Inc. 3209 Richards Lane (note new address) Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 www.positiveenergysolar.com On 6/4/2013 10:43 AM, eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com wrote: Hi Mac, A PWM charge controller, such as the C35, will work in this application, because it will act like a switch that connects the panel to the battery. While the bulk voltage will likely be slightly higher than Vmp, once the controller transitions to float, which is approx 27V for most battery types, it should allow the module to operate very close to Vmp. Typically, MPPT controllers require a higher Vmp than the target charge voltage. Eric Bentsen _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Mac Lewis maclew...@gmail.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: 06/04/2013 08:05 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24V charging with 60 cell modules Sent by: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Hello wrenches, Is there a good method to charge 24V battery bank with single 60 cell modules? Ideally, I'd like to charge a 24 V bank with a Kyocera 245GX-LFB. However, at NOTC the Vmp is 26.8V. Any good way to do this? Thanks in advance. -- Mac Lewis Yo solo sé que no sé nada. -Sócrates
Re: [RE-wrenches] Old Modules for GIT system?
Hi Dana, If the Trace model is SW, it will not be approved for selling if it was manufactured prior to 2002 (non-GTI model). If the batteries need to be replaced, the added expense may be considerable depending on the size of the bank. I guess it depends if the customer really wants backup. You may want to consider reconfiguring the array in series and go with a grid interactive inverter, such as the Conext TX2800, which will work fine with a 1.9kW array (24 in series). Other replies to this post indicate the array is not easily accessible, which can present it's own set of issues. I guess it boils down to what the customer wants. You can always sell the Trace inverter to someone off grid and use the proceeds toward a new grid-tie inverter. Eric _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Dana d...@solarwork.com To: 'RE-wrenches' re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: 06/04/2013 02:04 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Old Modules for GIT system? Sent by: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org I have a client eat has a 24 - Solarex SX 80 PV module system that was off grid, Trace inverter, APT Power panel and an very aged L-16 battery bank. The utility came in and he wants to go grid tie. It is or was only 960 watt originally. I realize that an array rewire is in order and it may only be a 1 KW system but he is interested in getting the equipment upgraded. Has anyone done a grid tie with such a small array and with modules this old? Any thoughts on installing sealed batteries and leaving it alone? Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136 d...@solarwork.com - www.solarwork.com O - 970.626.5253F - 970.626.4140 C - 208.721.7003 Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988 __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org image/jpeg___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] 24V charging with 60 cell modules
Hi Mac, A PWM charge controller, such as the C35, will work in this application, because it will act like a switch that connects the panel to the battery. While the bulk voltage will likely be slightly higher than Vmp, once the controller transitions to float, which is approx 27V for most battery types, it should allow the module to operate very close to Vmp. Typically, MPPT controllers require a higher Vmp than the target charge voltage. Eric Bentsen _ Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical Support Representative Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Mac Lewis maclew...@gmail.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: 06/04/2013 08:05 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] 24V charging with 60 cell modules Sent by: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Hello wrenches, Is there a good method to charge 24V battery bank with single 60 cell modules? Ideally, I'd like to charge a 24 V bank with a Kyocera 245GX-LFB. However, at NOTC the Vmp is 26.8V. Any good way to do this? Thanks in advance. -- Mac Lewis Yo solo sé que no sé nada. -Sócrates __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org image/jpeg___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
