Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid refrigerator
Almost 25 years ago, when we built our off grid home, we looked at the limited options then available one of which was the Sunfrost. After looking into things like relative efficiency, initial purchase cost and system requirements, it became pretty obvious that the Sunfrost was an overpriced option that had too many problems. For half the cost we bought a Vestfrost and then simply added a bit more generating capacity to our array at far less than the difference in cost between the Vestfrost and the Sunfrost. It was the best decision on appliances we ever made. The 120 vac Vestfrost was a bit less efficient but since we were generating our own power that difference was irrelevant as the cost to provide the necessary capacity to handle the efficiency difference actually resulted in us saving money and also gaining a very reliable appliance. That was then and the Vestfrost was massively more efficient than the standard refrigerators then available. Now, that model of Vestfrost is nowhere near as efficient as the newest Energy Star compliant refrigerators available at most appliance stores. Don’t waste time or money searching for another DC refrigerator, there simply isn’t any benefit. It will be cheaper to buy off the shelf and if you have to add a bit of generating capacity getting another panel on your system will be way cheaper than than it was for us back in the day...and back then it was still the better option. Tom From: Will White Sent: Saturday, September 8, 2018 3:20 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid refrigerator Hello Off-grid Wrenches, After 10+ years my Wife is finally sick of our Sunfrost RF-12. We'd like to upgrade to something a little more modern that doesn't leak water all over the floor when it's humid For you off-grid installers what's your go to refrigerator recommendation? I'm going to go through the energy star website but I thought I'd consult with the experts too. I'd like to find something that has a form factor similar to the Sunfrost although I know that's going to be hard to find. Thanks, Will White -- Will White Curriculum Developer e: w...@solarenergy.org w: www.solarenergy.org p: 802-272-3092 PV Installation Professional # 093006-34 FACT: If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power the world with renewable energy. Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change. ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings
This was 22 years ago and I got my buss bars from a battery distributor who did large backup installations for telco systems. He was horrified that we in the business were paralleling series strings together in a daisy chain. Said it was the best way to give batteries an early death. I had a source but last time I posted it I was told it was no longer in business. But I would think anyone who installs systems for large battery backups, either for wind systems using containers full of batteries or telco backup power, would have access to a good source. I preferred tinned copper bars. Using buss bars allows for creating banks of lots of batteries which allows for redundancy. I’ve never understood why you would want to put all your eggs in one or two baskets, so to speak, by paralleling two series strings of large batteries. One cell in one battery failing kills half the storage right off the bat and the system has to be taken offline just to remove the defective string. With a buss bar there is no interruption of service, batteries can be swapped out easily while the system hums along. My AGMs were solid for years and very well balanced. Tom From: Chris Schaefer Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 8:28 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings What source are you all using for buss bars for these multiple battery string set ups? Christopher On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 2:16 PM, wrote: Separate out the individual series strings and run each string to a buss bar setup. Remember it isn't just resistance differences between batteries but resistance difference between cells as well. In a setup like the existing one the resistance differences can really add up and if one battery fails the entire system will be offline. Running each string to a positive and negative common buss bar means you can remove individual strings without disrupting the entire storage and the system can continue operating. Also, it means the only resistance issues of substance are within individual series pairs not the entire interconnected bank. I ran 10 series pairs of 12v AGM batteries, each pair to a common buss and it was the longest lasting, most stable battery bank I had. That was years ago and now it would require fusing each string but for longevity and stability it is the best bet. Tom On 2018-07-23 03:56, Dave Tedeyan wrote: Since we are on the topic of bad battery practices... I may be fixing up a system that was both designed and installed very poorly. They have a 24V Outback VFXR inverter, and ten 12V AGM batteries wired into 5 parallel strings. I know that is a bad idea, but since they already have the equipment, are there any safety issues by re-using this equipment? It is for a grid tie battery backup system that will remain in float most of the time. I assume that the batteries will not last particularly long, but is there any harm in using them and then just getting new batteries once they fail? Stringing is shown in the attached picture. Cheers, Dave -- Dave Tedeyan SENIOR ENGINEER TAITEM ENGINEERING, PC 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882 Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6 www.taitem.com [1] Links: -- [1] http://www.taitem.com/ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Schaefer’s Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: ch...@solarandwindfx.com Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings:
Re: [RE-wrenches] battery buss bar stock
http://www.stormcopperstore.com/index.html -Original Message- From: jay Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 6:06 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] battery buss bar stock HI All, I’m wondering if anyone has a good source for battery buss bar stock. Either pre made ones or stock I can use to make myself. It would be for larger Rolls GEL 2v in this case but other battery sizes/types as well. thanks jay peltz power ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Mixing battery sizes in the same bank
The battery engineers at the outfit that first taught me how to install using buss bars cabling individual series strings in parallel to the buss bars were also adamant that using that configuration would allow for different size and capacity batteries to be installed in the same bank. I also questioned them as you guys did and they assured me it would work. I never did try it but I was also very satisfied with the stability of my entire bank (12 series pairs paralleled through cables to +/- buss bars). The bank voltage never varied much more than 1/10 volt differential from the time I installed them until I sold the house a few years later. Tom -Original Message- From: Ray Walters Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 5:18 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Mixing battery sizes in the same bank Even if it works for short term testing, I would imagine long term issues that would require more frequent equalization, and shorter cycle life. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 11/18/2015 5:09 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: Just when I thought I was becoming a battery guru, this came up: A customer asked me if he could purchase two different size 12 volt Lifeline (Concorde) AGM batteries and connect them in parallel. Of course I told him this was a bad idea and all his parallel batteries should be same make, age, size. A few days later he called me back and said he talked to Lifeline battery and they told him it was fine to mix any size of their batteries together. Knowing that people sometimes hear wrong, I called Lifeline to inquire. The answer, "yes, you can mix any of our batteries in parallel. We have tested that and Concorde tested it and it’s no problem”. Stunned, I asked him if this was in writing anywhere and he said no but I could test this myself. So battery wrenches, what will happen if I have an 8D at 255AH paralleled to a group 24 at 75 AH and discharge this to 80% DoD? How can this possibly be OK for the 75AH battery? And why would a battery manufacturer say this? Larry ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries
What size are the banks are are they series/paralleled across the terminals? That can cause one or more cells to fail, generally starting on the negative terminal. The set that failed on me was series/parallel across the terminals, old school, and the cell closest to the main negative overheated and shorted out, killing that string. It’s why I went to buss bars. Tom From: Drake Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2015 12:03 PM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trojan Batteries Hello Wrenches, I have had a number of customers with Trojan L-16s have problems lately. In some cases, I know that the batteries weren't very well cared for, but in no case were the batteries totally discharged and let get cold or sit for a long time. It doesn't seem that the batteries should have died after a couple of years. I could see diminished output and a reduced life. One customer who supposedly knows someone with inside information claims that Trojan started cutting corners a few years ago to be more competitive on price. Has anyone else seen more problems with Trojan Batteries, or heard that the company is cutting corners? Thanks, Drake Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified Solar PV 740-448-7328 http://athens-electric.com/ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Dream system.
Jesse, I’d also add a good buss bar connection system for your battery banks, maybe even do one set of series/parallel connections (old way) across the bank and one set of connections with the series strings interconnected through buss bars rather than direct string to string. Much better battery life that way and the more people that learn to do it with buss bars from the beginning the better. Tom Elliot From: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com Sent: Friday, July 31, 2015 11:29 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Dream system. Hi: I would add, 1. Battery Monitoring with logging capability 2. Remote monitoring and control over the web 3. Lion battery and battery manager, (open format manager circuits so that it can be seen how things work). 4. GFCI's and ELCI's on AC circuits 5. Generator and automatic generator start controller If you suggestions on specific models, contact me offline JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Solar dahlso...@gmail.com To: Wrenches RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 07/31/2015 02:05 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dream system. Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Hello all, I was recently hired to be the full time electrical instructor at a local community college. In the second year of the class there is a 6 credit renewable energy and habitat house course. I have been teaching at this college as an adjunct instructor since 2009 teaching for 3 of the 7 local iron ore mines,the local paper mill as well as doing most of the NEC code update courses. During that time I ran a one year and a 6 month solar PV course. I have a fairly nice lab built for the PV course consisting of the following: 2 axis tracker Fixed tilt pole mount 20'x16' mock roof with shingles and metal roofing Enphase systems (3) 700W SMA inverters Outback setup Xantrax 600v 80A charge controller Magnum 4024 inverter (AC coupled goal with this) Tigos 300W Morningstar on a demo cart Couple Solectria inverter (not used much) Trace 4024 (purchased in 99) Trace DR 1524 that goes along with our 1Kw Bergy Multiple battery brands and types AGM and flooded Pathfinders Suneye (2 210s) 600V Solmetric PVA Racking, quickmounts standoffs, clamps nuts and bolts... Modules include: 90W sunwize, Solarwolrd 175, REC 215W, silicon energy 190W, kyocera 210W, solar frontier 100W (I think 100W) AEE 95W, Dasol 15, 30, 135w. Assuming I stay with this job for the next 25 years, which will take me into my early 60s and my goal, I will have a yearly budget to spend adding to this lab. Here is the question, seeing what we have now what individual pieces would you add or what system would you build with the goal of community education or training electrical students and electricians. Long winded but I am very interested to hear your ideas! Have a good weekend and thanks! Jesse Sent from my iPhone ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar
The ability to string multiple powerwalls together to get up to 90 KWhrs of storage makes them modular and likely quite easy to install. The price is rather high but I haven’t priced batteries lately for comparison. The built in safety features will make for a good selling point too. I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt for now. Tom From: Allan Sindelar Sent: Saturday, May 2, 2015 12:57 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar Well, I'll go out on a limb and speculate that this is a game changer. There will be a lot of buzz, and it'll shift general public perceptions. There'll be a greater mainstream awareness that batteries are improving. A number of my off grid clients are quite ready for an alternative to FLA batteries. The Teslas may have strictly limited applications now, but I'll predict that these are the start of a seismic shift. Allan Allan Sindelar al...@sindelarsolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc. 505 780-2738 cell !--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]-- !--[endif]-- On 5/2/2015 7:03 AM, Dan Fink wrote: The Tesla media kit describes 2 models, a 7kwh and a 10kwh: Tesla’s selling price to installers is $3500 for 10kWh and $3000 for 7kWh. (Price excludes inverter and installation.) Deliveries begin in late Summer. Powerwall specs: a.. Mounting: Wall Mounted Indoor/Outdoor b.. Inverter: Pairs with growing list of inverters c.. Energy: 7 kWh or 10 kWh d.. Continuous Power: 2 kW e.. Peak Power: 3.3 kW f.. Round Trip Efficiency: 92% g.. Operating Temperature Range: -20C (-4F) to 43C (110F) h.. Warranty: 10 years i.. Dimensions: H: 1300mm W: 860mm D:180mm Nice price point, no info on the BMS or usable DOD. Power only 2kW with peak of 3.3kW? Ouch, most off grid homes do better than that. Also 7-10 kWh of energy storage would be fine for an small, efficient off-grid home and conservative user, but my math shows only a few hours of autonomy time for the typical American homeowner. Dan Fink Buckville Energy IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™ 970.672.4342 On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 6:45 AM, Chris Schaefer ch...@solarandwindfx.com wrote: Kurt, since you’re a vermonter perhaps you’ve got an inside contact with Green Mountain Power that can shed some light? Same issue here in NY, I’ve got phone messages and emails asking about it. So we kinda need to know what the battery voltage is in order to figure out how many amp hours the bank is. Wonder how many life cycles, suggested DOD? Christopher Chris Schaefer’s Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424 www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: ch...@solarandwindfx.com Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirk Herander Sent: Saturday, 02 May, 2015 07:22 To: glenn.b...@glbcc.com; 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar John Berdner of Solaredge (still with them??) in a previous discussion on this forum has stated that Solaredge can be AC-coupled, with a firmware tweak I believe he said. Kirk Herander VT Solar, LLC Proven PV provider since 1991 www.vermontsolarnow.com dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt Sent: Friday, May 01, 2015 7:47 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar I can tell you that the Solar Edge inverters do not support AC coupling, as their reps told me at the NABCEP CE conference… I have seen pictures of some Solar City battery systems that use an XW as the inverter. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers Sent: Friday, May 01, 2015 6:50 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwall battery paired with solar Hi Wrenches, I’m sure you’ve seen the Tesla Powerwall press releases by now: http://www.teslamotors.com/presskit/teslaenergy We are
