Re: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM...equalizing AGM

[Dan Fink]

Thanks for the AGM equalization info, all. My horror stories have all been
with VRLAs. I will start trying the short EQ in the future after seeing the
explanations.not enough time to start releasing moisture.

Best;

Dan Fink
Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
Executive Director, Buckville Energy
NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
NABCEP PV Associate

970.672.4342




On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 11:34 AM Starlight Solar Power Systems <
la...@starlightsolar.com> wrote:

> Dan, Jay,…
>
> I’m a huge fan of equalizing AGM batteries often. Some mfg. forbid it;
> some recommend it for corrective procedure for lost capacity. From 16 years
> of simple observation and thousands of battery systems installed, customers
> that equalize AGM’s are getting much longer battery life compared to
> charging to Mfg. specs. only.
>
> A short EQ of 30 minutes after absorption is complete seems to be key. If
> the battery is healthy, current is extremely low at the end of Absorb.
> Applying 2.6 Vpc, the current rises for a short time then drops back very
> low. There is not enough current or time to create heat or pressure to
> release moisture.
>
> The EQ cycle we recommend is every 10 days or less frequently. One
> customer that equalizes *daily* is at 13 years on a set of Lifeline
> (Concorde) GPL-4CT batteries. Others are at 10-12 years. Customers that do
> not EQ seem to get 4-6 years.
>
> This is all anecdotal but having some understanding what is happening in
> the electrochemical process makes me a believer. Through charging and
> discharging, some less active areas of the plates retain unconverted lead
> sulphate after normal charging. These areas of sulfate continue to grow in
> hardness and size with each cycle and eventually form a layer with strong
> bonds that can't be removed through normal charging. Once this process
> starts (perhaps within 30 days!), these bonds continue to increase. My
> belief is that by applying a temporary high voltage after most PbSO4 has
> been recombined, these areas are targeted for recombination. Slowing the
> growth of irreversible sulfation results in retaining higher capacity and
> thus longer cycle life. Just my opinion developed over the years it took me
> to acquire a gray beard.
>
> Larry Crutcher
> Starlight Solar Power Systems
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM...equalizing AGM

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Dan, Jay,…

I’m a huge fan of equalizing AGM batteries often. Some mfg. forbid it; some 
recommend it for corrective procedure for lost capacity. From 16 years of 
simple observation and thousands of battery systems installed, customers that 
equalize AGM’s are getting much longer battery life compared to charging to 
Mfg. specs. only. 

A short EQ of 30 minutes after absorption is complete seems to be key. If the 
battery is healthy, current is extremely low at the end of Absorb. Applying 2.6 
Vpc, the current rises for a short time then drops back very low. There is not 
enough current or time to create heat or pressure to release moisture. 

The EQ cycle we recommend is every 10 days or less frequently. One customer 
that equalizes daily is at 13 years on a set of Lifeline (Concorde) GPL-4CT 
batteries. Others are at 10-12 years. Customers that do not EQ seem to get 4-6 
years. 

This is all anecdotal but having some understanding what is happening in the 
electrochemical process makes me a believer. Through charging and discharging, 
some less active areas of the plates retain unconverted lead sulphate after 
normal charging. These areas of sulfate continue to grow in hardness and size 
with each cycle and eventually form a layer with strong bonds that can't be 
removed through normal charging. Once this process starts (perhaps within 30 
days!), these bonds continue to increase. My belief is that by applying a 
temporary high voltage after most PbSO4 has been recombined, these areas are 
targeted for recombination. Slowing the growth of irreversible sulfation 
results in retaining higher capacity and thus longer cycle life. Just my 
opinion developed over the years it took me to acquire a gray beard. 

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems






On Nov 22, 2018, at 11:18 AM, jay  wrote:

Hi Dan,

Curious about your statement on no EQ for AGM.
FullRiver, Rolls and many others have a EQ or sometimes called  "conditioning 
charge” or something similar, that is recommended for specific situations.
I am not saying that all AGM can/should have a EQ/conditioning charge.  Some 
can, some can’t,  OEM/model specific. 


For example I was given the following info from Full River  ( 400-6 model) if 
the batteries are showing signs of low capacity.  While they mention this low 
capacity situation in the manual, they don’t list the following info.  I had to 
call them to get it.

For 48v battery:
Charge to 60v
4-6 hrs 
Charge first thing in the am
3 days in a row
1 x year 

Jay

Peltz Power


> On Nov 22, 2018, at 8:23 AM, Dan Fink  > wrote:
> 
> All;  I forgot to note that with the AGMs a full equalization that could 
> temporarily stave off problems across the massively paralleled small-capacity 
> batteries is not possible. 
> 
> I would probably spend a couple hours, no more, load testing it while 
> watching on a thermal imager. I don't have the luxury of a Fluke battery 
> tester. 
> 
> I would show the customer why it was designed incorrectly, show the test 
> results and FLIR photos, and walk away. I would never take on the job of 
> battery replacement in this situationyou will be the loser who "wrecked 
> his system."
> 
> 
> On Wed, Nov 21, 2018, 05:00 Ray mailto:r...@solarray.com> 
> wrote:
> Regardless of the Amazing Batcap 30 yr claims debunked by Dan,  a system 
> wired in the manner described (5 batteries in parallel, then series 
> connecting the sets of 5 for 48 v) is just not going to charge and discharge 
> evenly.  Its violated the no more than 4 parallel strings rule, so I'm 
> surprised it lasted even 5 years.  My guess is that some of the batteries are 
> toast and some may have a bit of life in them, since they were so grossly 
> imbalanced, so a neighbor might be able to use a few of the best ones for a 
> couple more years. Ultimately the rule in off grid solar is "Batteries are 
> the Weakest Link".  The customer is not going to have a decent experience 
> until they replace that mess with a properly sized and wired battery bank 
> from a reputable manufacturer.
> 
> I won't take on new clients if we can't get the system up to snuff.  I don't 
> need those oh so predictable calls that the power is off again.  
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
> On 11/21/18 1:06 AM, Dan Fink wrote:
>> Hello All; I would question the client about the origin of this battery 
>> bank. New, used, how long in storage and in service, etc. If he bought these 
>> new, that's a very expensive battery bank!
>> 
>> Usually when I've run into banks of massively parallel, low amp-hour sealed 
>> lead acid batteries, the origin was "a great surplus deal on a whole bunch 
>> of batteries from wheelchairs/UPS units/manufacturer overrun etc."
>> 
>> My BS meter on the manufacturer Batcap was triggered by a few things
>> 
>> -The company is focused on selling audiophiles xxxscratch thatxxx punks with 
>> car stereos so loud they set off car alarms 6 spots down. They